BurtW arrested (update: charges dropped!)

[sAt0sHiFanClub]

...

I'll say it again. The 35 gestapoans, arms drawn, and in full battle dress, did not arrive on flying donkeys.

This is becoming an amazing story.  The only reason an otherwise rational government would react like that is out of fear or naked greed.

If regulated financial actors are now getting involved in Bitcoin, then fear does not stand up. That leaves greed.

I think this will boil down to theft. Like all the other forfeitures under the 'patriot' act, powers which are being reeled in already.

Thats why so many different branches of LE got involved - they have their own rules of how they divvy up the loot legally aquired funds

[Keyser Soze]

https://soundcloud.com/jbreher-free/co-ga-sen-jud-comm-20150225-hr

What's This? Not much - just the Proceedings of the Colorado General Legislative Assembly: Senate Judiciary Committee: 2015 Feb 25: Hearing on SB-006 - on limiting the negative effects and unbridled application of so-called 'civil forfeiture' (AKA legalistic theft on the part of the state against its citizens) - the first hour thereof.

Why the heck would I be posting this here?

Starting at time 34:30, there is some testimony all y'all might find interesting.

It seems that, on 2015 Feb 25, in official testimony before the Colorado Senate Judiciary Committee, Jean Wagner (BurtW's wife) and Zoe Wagner (BurtW's daughter) testified in a hearing related to consideration of a bill. A bill sponsored by CO Senator Laura Woods (SD19) - Concerning limitations on forfeiture actions.

Very interesting, thank you for posting this. Assuming their testimonies are accurate (I have no reason to believe they are not), this is a perfect example of how crazy asset forfeiture laws/cases are today.

[Westin Landon Cox]

The testimony was disturbing, and I believe it.

To make it a little easier for people to find it, I took their testimony (slightly edited to under 9 minutes, removing pauses, cross talk, and prompting) and made it into a youtube video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKGWpykL_78

It's (well past) time people woke up to what our country has become.

[jbreher]

what matters most is how the custodians of his life view him, their belief will determine in large part their actions.  

I took the liberty of bolding "the custodians of his life" in your quote above. It is such a curious turn of phrase. What exactly do you mean by this? Who are the custodian's of any person's life?

[QuestionAuthority]

The testimony was disturbing, and I believe it.

To make it a little easier for people to find it, I took their testimony (slightly edited to under 9 minutes, removing pauses, cross talk, and prompting) and made it into a youtube video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKGWpykL_78

It's (well past) time people woke up to what our country has become.

Thanks for the effort, great job. I think merricans understand how screwed their country is but feel like they can't do anything about it. It should be illegal for cops to stop people driving down the freeway and extort hundreds of dollars from them but that's been happening for decades.

She never mentioned where Burt is. Where is he being held? Will he ever get out on bail? He's fucked if they used the patriot act to seize his property without a warrant because they'll need to pin something on him to cover their asses.

[cheekychap]

Based on this, are other sellers and fellow traders on Localbitcoin wary of tradingg on there ? I see them being in risk of being arrested as well then.

[jc01480]

Didn't some users on here come up with some legal disclaimer forms for each customer/client?  I recall seeing something like that several months back.  If not, perhaps some legal consultation amongst the group could produce something to mitigate legal risks.  Just my 2 cents.

[sAt0sHiFanClub]

The parts in red read like you are either Bert's wife or a proxy for her.   Up to now no one really viewed this from that perspective, and I seriously doubt the notion will find legs.  The agencies may be greedy and some actors may have acted out of greed, but based on the greed argument the agencies needed 1 body each to stake their share-claim on the $200K pot; yet there was 35 LEOs present, the action is inconsistent with the conspiracy being IN LARGE PART based on, or provoked by, greed. 

No, no connection. Just concern that the concept of Policing For Profit is becoming endemic in our society ( applies to US and Europe in equal measure) The senate are already raising concerns over abuses of Patriot Act seizures for the financial benefit of LE. God, there are even private LE schools that train officers to maximise the amount they can take from roadside stops, and how to trick people into waiving their rights.

There are too many unknowns at this point in the case, but dont disregard greed as a primary motive behind these investigation.

[dothebeats]

The testimony was disturbing, and I believe it.

To make it a little easier for people to find it, I took their testimony (slightly edited to under 9 minutes, removing pauses, cross talk, and prompting) and made it into a youtube video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKGWpykL_78

It's (well past) time people woke up to what our country has become.

Thanks for sharing this one. Shocking to think that this kind of scenario happens not only in our country but is also very evident in other countries. Btw, where is BurtW detained? Does his family know his whereabouts or where he's detained?

[dothebeats]

Based on this, are other sellers and fellow traders on Localbitcoin wary of tradingg on there ? I see them being in risk of being arrested as well then.

They are ABSOLUTELY at HIGH risk of getting caught in fed sting, sadly too many have the 'it won't happen to me' mentality.

Why are the feds going to detain someone who's trading in an exchange? Is buying bitcoin already a crime in other countries? 

[dothebeats]

Based on this, are other sellers and fellow traders on Localbitcoin wary of tradingg on there ? I see them being in risk of being arrested as well then.

They are ABSOLUTELY at HIGH risk of getting caught in fed sting, sadly too many have the 'it won't happen to me' mentality.

Why are the feds going to detain someone who's trading in an exchange? Is buying bitcoin already a crime in other countries? 

Personal vs Business use - You don't need a license to buy or sell bitcoins anyplace in the US, the license is to buy, sell, trade, or otherwise use them for a fee, or for multiple employers, or as a business. 

If you don't know if you are suppose to be licensed, get it anyway, or ask govt (www.fincen.gov) if you need the lic.    The people who issue the license are the same ones who issue the complaints, make the arrests, and seek to punish offenders.

Just get the license:  

If you charge a fee to someone to deal with money, you probably need a license
if you have a store front, or website that presents you as a "professional" money guy, you probably need a license
if you hold someone's money for a fee, you probably need a license
if you give advice for a fee, you probably need a license
if you call it a business, if you feel like you are in business, if you want to be in business, and that business has to do with getting money for handing money for more than one "employer" you probably need a license

Yes, the govt is using localbitcoin to STING whoever they can sting.  If you use that service make it personal or get a license.  If you charge a fee get a license.  If you do it so often that you OBVIOUSLY are in business, get a license.  If you are doing big enough deals to say to yourself -- "wow, I could do this for a living", get a license.

Then when the sting comes your way they will see your license and buzz-off.


https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=934268.msg10454564#msg10454564

Wth is this "license" exactly? Is this "license" necessary just to buy bitcoins?

[odolvlobo]

Based on this, are other sellers and fellow traders on Localbitcoin wary of tradingg on there ? I see them being in risk of being arrested as well then.

They are ABSOLUTELY at HIGH risk of getting caught in fed sting, sadly too many have the 'it won't happen to me' mentality.

https://localbitcoins.com/accounts/profile/odolvlobo/

[sAt0sHiFanClub]

Based on this, are other sellers and fellow traders on Localbitcoin wary of tradingg on there ? I see them being in risk of being arrested as well then.

They are ABSOLUTELY at HIGH risk of getting caught in fed sting, sadly too many have the 'it won't happen to me' mentality.

https://localbitcoins.com/accounts/profile/odolvlobo/

Its a shame that we have to use the word "Martyr" in the context of a new idea in our supposedly free world, but here we are.

Good luck, may you continue safely..

[najzenmajsen]

Sorry , who is this guy ?
and why did he even gest arrested , as far as i knew bitcoin is legal ? O_o

[Hfleer]

How is it that every cash trade must be related to something criminal going on? How exactly do such stings work?

[uvwvj]

Bitcoin is legal - buying/selling in bulk with USD and other avenues is not without licensure and record keeping-

Here is Paypals license in each state - and what would one would need to do in each state to operate in this manner.

https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/licenses

If you follow their licenses it will give each states law - here is Colorados

http://cdn.colorado.gov/cs/Satellite?blobcol=urldata&blobheadername1=Content-Disposition&blobheadername2=Content-Type&blobheadervalue1=inline%3B+filename%3D%22Title+12+Article+52.pdf%22&blobheadervalue2=application%2Fpdf&blobkey=id&blobtable=MungoBlobs&blobwhere=1252001790565&ssbinary=true

[sAt0sHiFanClub]

Penalties
(2) A person who acts as an agent of an unlicensed person required to be licensed by part 1 of this article
knowing the unlicensed person does not hold such license commits a class 2 misdemeanor and shall be
punished as provided in section 18-1.3-501, C.R.S.

Being an agent is just a class 2 misdemeanor. I'd risk that...  :-)

[uvwvj]

Yes, bitcoin is legal in the USA, but NO you don't need a license to buy or sell btc in "bulk" and NO you don't need to keep records.   You can buy and or sell every single btc in a single transaction and not need a license to do so.   The license requirement has more to do with your intended interaction with the public.   You don't have to buy or sell a single btc to need a license to offer to buy or sell btc to the public.  


As for the licenses issued to paypal, those are state licenses that would be a secondary license, the primary license and main subject of this case/thread is the federal license.
As indicated in this thread other licenses may also be requires like: county, and city depending on where you plan to do business.

Most of the stings are being conducted by the feds, although fl did one not too long ago.

Yes this is Fed baSed, and paypal does that and each state.  Yes its about bulk and reporting as 5331 text link is included.  And bulk is $10k

Also if you read the first post scrib charge A is based on not having a Colorado license.

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCODE-2011-title31/html/USCODE-2011-title31-subtitleIV-chap53-subchapII-sec5331.htm

[Berau]

Based on his arrest, does it mean that it is illegal to trade bitcoins using USD, face to face?

I don't think so.

[edd]

Based on his arrest, does it mean that it is illegal to trade bitcoins using USD, face to face?

I don't think so.

There isn't enough known about his arrest to draw any conclusions about the legality of trading bitcoins.