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Author Topic: BurtW arrested (update: charges dropped!)  (Read 74300 times)
kevinlarr
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March 11, 2015, 08:31:28 PM
Last edit: March 11, 2015, 08:52:48 PM by kevinlarr
 #381

Getting back on-topic, now that the Zoe-Fund idea is off on its own thread.

If you guys have not seen yet, go back to the website set up by Burt's family and click the link where his wife has posted some thoughts on her own page: http://www.jmwagner.com/

Notice there, she said the FIRST ISSUE that the prosecutor raised with the judge in asking to keep Burt in jail "for as long as allowed" after his arrest, was that they were worried "IF he is set free then he will be able to hide his bitcoins".

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Jail

One of the agents then told me that Burt was arrested for violating 18 U.S.C. 1960.  Friends helped me find an attorney that day.   Burt spent that night in the Denver County Jail.  The next day, the attorney went to the hearing.  Magistrate Craig B. Shaffer asked Assistant United States Attorney Michele Korver “what she desired.”  She said she wanted to keep Burt the maximum number of nights possible.  The defense attorney started to speak (he wanted to point out that Burt has no criminal record and that he is not a flight risk.)  The judge refused to hear from the defense attorney.  The judge said that AUSA Korver was entitled to hold him the maximum number of nights.  Case closed.  AUSA Korver argued that if Burt was set free he would be able to hide the Bitcoins from her.  (Not true.  The feds already had his Bitcoins.)

So, let me get this straight? Their FIRST CONCERN is... they wouldn't be able to get his bitcoins???

Wait, what?  Shocked

That's pretty telling, isn't it?  They just wanted to be able to seize his money and so he needed to be "kept out of the way" for as long as possible, while they went about their task.

It's amazing to me that they actually feel safe enough -- just outright admitting this is their Big Motive, IN OPEN COURT as the reason and justification to the freaking JUDGE -- of WHY someone needs to be kept in JAIL.

This story just keeps getting more insane and Kafka-eske the longer it goes on.

KEVIN
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March 11, 2015, 11:41:09 PM
 #382

Getting back on-topic, now that the Zoe-Fund idea is off on its own thread.

If you guys have not seen yet, go back to the website set up by Burt's family and click the link where his wife has posted some thoughts on her own page: http://www.jmwagner.com/

Notice there, she said the FIRST ISSUE that the prosecutor raised with the judge in asking to keep Burt in jail "for as long as allowed" after his arrest, was that they were worried "IF he is set free then he will be able to hide his bitcoins".

Quote
Jail

One of the agents then told me that Burt was arrested for violating 18 U.S.C. 1960.  Friends helped me find an attorney that day.   Burt spent that night in the Denver County Jail.  The next day, the attorney went to the hearing.  Magistrate Craig B. Shaffer asked Assistant United States Attorney Michele Korver “what she desired.”  She said she wanted to keep Burt the maximum number of nights possible.  The defense attorney started to speak (he wanted to point out that Burt has no criminal record and that he is not a flight risk.)  The judge refused to hear from the defense attorney.  The judge said that AUSA Korver was entitled to hold him the maximum number of nights.  Case closed.  AUSA Korver argued that if Burt was set free he would be able to hide the Bitcoins from her.  (Not true.  The feds already had his Bitcoins.)

So, let me get this straight? Their FIRST CONCERN is... they wouldn't be able to get his bitcoins???

Wait, what?  Shocked

That's pretty telling, isn't it?  They just wanted to be able to seize his money and so he needed to be "kept out of the way" for as long as possible, while they went about their task.

It's amazing to me that they actually feel safe enough -- just outright admitting this is their Big Motive, IN OPEN COURT as the reason and justification to the freaking JUDGE -- of WHY someone needs to be kept in JAIL.

This story just keeps getting more insane and Kafka-eske the longer it goes on.

KEVIN

Aside (with apologies): At a lost, hence asking: Is this the Kafka you've alluded to?: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/26/magazine/26kafka-t.html?pagewanted=all
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March 12, 2015, 01:48:00 AM
 #383

Aside (with apologies): At a lost, hence asking: Is this the Kafka you've alluded to?: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/26/magazine/26kafka-t.html?pagewanted=all

More to the point: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Kafkaesque

KEV
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March 12, 2015, 02:20:57 AM
 #384


So, I was close enough. Thanks, bud.
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March 13, 2015, 12:38:27 AM
Last edit: March 13, 2015, 01:51:55 AM by Gleb Gamow
 #385

Here's the Reddit link, folks: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2yuwgo/seeking_only_600_usd_via_btc_donations_to_replace/

If nothing else, please get the word out via any means you're most comfortable with.

1FvX81SxjLLvFymFVDH3Z4LXA87jVU6EaH

Thanks in advance.

Bruno

PS: Here's the donation thread so that you don't have to hunt it yourself: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=985596.0
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March 15, 2015, 03:33:57 AM
 #386

A little follow up info I found from browsing the web, Special Agent Arran Mcwhirter, mentioned by Burt's wife on her site, historically is responsible for phone tapping and invasive surveillance for DHS. He has mainly been involved in wiretapping cocaine dealers. He would have surveilled Burts house and reviewed months of conversations before acting. What did he find that he thought was worth the effort?

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March 15, 2015, 03:36:57 AM
 #387

How is trading bitcoins face to face a crime? This is ridiculous guys.
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March 15, 2015, 08:08:19 AM
 #388

A little follow up info I found from browsing the web, Special Agent Arran Mcwhirter, mentioned by Burt's wife on her site, historically is responsible for phone tapping and invasive surveillance for DHS. He has mainly been involved in wiretapping cocaine dealers. He would have surveilled Burts house and reviewed months of conversations before acting. What did he find that he thought was worth the effort?


hes probably got a boss like everyone else and is expected to produce results after wasting time and money

may also be part of  a follow up investigation from the btcst , trendon shavers probably has given up the names of the PPT operators
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March 15, 2015, 09:42:32 AM
 #389

A little follow up info I found from browsing the web, Special Agent Arran Mcwhirter, mentioned by Burt's wife on her site, historically is responsible for phone tapping and invasive surveillance for DHS. He has mainly been involved in wiretapping cocaine dealers. He would have surveilled Burts house and reviewed months of conversations before acting. What did he find that he thought was worth the effort?


hes probably got a boss like everyone else and is expected to produce results after wasting time and money

may also be part of  a follow up investigation from the btcst , trendon shavers probably has given up the names of the PPT operators

The surveillance would have to show something to create that kind of response from multiple departments. There were some pretty interesting departments there according to the recount of events.

Postal police? They only get involved when the crime happens using the us mail service. You could build a nuclear bomb in your basement and they wouldn't care if you didn't attempt to ship it through the mail. They don't get involved in very many arrests but they do report a multitude of crimes to other departments.

DEA? Their jurisdiction is also very limited. Again, they wouldn't care if you built a nuclear bomb in your basement unless you stuffed it full of illegal narcotics.

Local sheriffs and marshals? It makes sense they would be there for any crime. They're the extra manpower for every local arrest.

DHS? Another strange department to be involved in a money transmitter license case. DHS keeps the bad boo-boos and owies from coming into this country from those other heathen places in the world. They do everything from securing the borders and immigration to securing the Internet from foreign owies. Anything that could have anything to do with keeping those commie pinko fags and their radical ideas overseas would be DHS.

I can see there being 35 people involved with just the above listed departments. That's only seven people per department which would be a normal response force for any department. DEA goes to bust a drug dealer they take 6-7 people. Makes sense for the number of departments.

Using just the information we know about the departments involved in the arrest eliminates the possibility of this having anything to do with running a PPT. It also eliminates the possibility that this was over guns or alcohol. But the most curious thing of all is it eliminates the possibility that this was about a money transmitting license.

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March 15, 2015, 01:57:57 PM
 #390

A little follow up info I found from browsing the web, Special Agent Arran Mcwhirter, mentioned by Burt's wife on her site, historically is responsible for phone tapping and invasive surveillance for DHS. He has mainly been involved in wiretapping cocaine dealers. He would have surveilled Burts house and reviewed months of conversations before acting. What did he find that he thought was worth the effort?


hes probably got a boss like everyone else and is expected to produce results after wasting time and money

may also be part of  a follow up investigation from the btcst , trendon shavers probably has given up the names of the PPT operators

The surveillance would have to show something to create that kind of response from multiple departments. There were some pretty interesting departments there according to the recount of events.

Postal police? They only get involved when the crime happens using the us mail service. You could build a nuclear bomb in your basement and they wouldn't care if you didn't attempt to ship it through the mail. They don't get involved in very many arrests but they do report a multitude of crimes to other departments.

DEA? Their jurisdiction is also very limited. Again, they wouldn't care if you built a nuclear bomb in your basement unless you stuffed it full of illegal narcotics.

Local sheriffs and marshals? It makes sense they would be there for any crime. They're the extra manpower for every local arrest.

DHS? Another strange department to be involved in a money transmitter license case. DHS keeps the bad boo-boos and owies from coming into this country from those other heathen places in the world. They do everything from securing the borders and immigration to securing the Internet from foreign owies. Anything that could have anything to do with keeping those commie pinko fags and their radical ideas overseas would be DHS.

I can see there being 35 people involved with just the above listed departments. That's only seven people per department which would be a normal response force for any department. DEA goes to bust a drug dealer they take 6-7 people. Makes sense for the number of departments.

Using just the information we know about the departments involved in the arrest eliminates the possibility of this having anything to do with running a PPT. It also eliminates the possibility that this was over guns or alcohol. But the most curious thing of all is it eliminates the possibility that this was about a money transmitting license.

the DEA have  arrested various people all over the world for all sorts of crimes
google for "joseph rambo hunter  arrested in thailand " and hes just one example
who didnt actually have any drugs  but it shows the DEA have a lot of power even overseas

if he has sold or exchanged  bitcoins that were to be used or had  already been used on silk rd etc it would help the DEA justify their excuse for  being there

maybe they just want his money if their intelligence has singled him out as being a "big fish" ?

he will possibly be offered a deal to forefit all his assets in exchange for a slap on the wrist etc
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March 15, 2015, 03:34:46 PM
 #391

A little follow up info I found from browsing the web, Special Agent Arran Mcwhirter, mentioned by Burt's wife on her site, historically is responsible for phone tapping and invasive surveillance for DHS. He has mainly been involved in wiretapping cocaine dealers. He would have surveilled Burts house and reviewed months of conversations before acting. What did he find that he thought was worth the effort?


hes probably got a boss like everyone else and is expected to produce results after wasting time and money

may also be part of  a follow up investigation from the btcst , trendon shavers probably has given up the names of the PPT operators

The surveillance would have to show something to create that kind of response from multiple departments. There were some pretty interesting departments there according to the recount of events.

Postal police? They only get involved when the crime happens using the us mail service. You could build a nuclear bomb in your basement and they wouldn't care if you didn't attempt to ship it through the mail. They don't get involved in very many arrests but they do report a multitude of crimes to other departments.

DEA? Their jurisdiction is also very limited. Again, they wouldn't care if you built a nuclear bomb in your basement unless you stuffed it full of illegal narcotics.

Local sheriffs and marshals? It makes sense they would be there for any crime. They're the extra manpower for every local arrest.

DHS? Another strange department to be involved in a money transmitter license case. DHS keeps the bad boo-boos and owies from coming into this country from those other heathen places in the world. They do everything from securing the borders and immigration to securing the Internet from foreign owies. Anything that could have anything to do with keeping those commie pinko fags and their radical ideas overseas would be DHS.

I can see there being 35 people involved with just the above listed departments. That's only seven people per department which would be a normal response force for any department. DEA goes to bust a drug dealer they take 6-7 people. Makes sense for the number of departments.

Using just the information we know about the departments involved in the arrest eliminates the possibility of this having anything to do with running a PPT. It also eliminates the possibility that this was over guns or alcohol. But the most curious thing of all is it eliminates the possibility that this was about a money transmitting license.

the DEA have  arrested various people all over the world for all sorts of crimes
google for "joseph rambo hunter  arrested in thailand " and hes just one example
who didnt actually have any drugs  but it shows the DEA have a lot of power even overseas

if he has sold or exchanged  bitcoins that were to be used or had  already been used on silk rd etc it would help the DEA justify their excuse for  being there

maybe they just want his money if their intelligence has singled him out as being a "big fish" ?

he will possibly be offered a deal to forefit all his assets in exchange for a slap on the wrist etc

Oh, I know that. I wasn't claiming to know what the arrest was about but what it was not about because of the missing departments. It wasn't about running a PPT, guns or a money transmitting license.

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March 15, 2015, 07:10:37 PM
 #392

Oh, I know that. I wasn't claiming to know what the arrest was about but what it was not about because of the missing departments. It wasn't about running a PPT, guns or a money transmitting license.

I see your point but why then does the indictment only focus on the money transmitting license issue?

That's ALL they've put on there. Nothing else?

IF they HAVE bigger guns to use against Burt?  Why not use 'em?

One would THINK that IF somebody was a heinous Dr. Evil character involved in all sorts of ugly things like: drugs, guns, fraud, ponzi scams, molesting kittens, tearing tags off of mattresses, etc etc etc then ALL of it ought to be a visible part of the arguments to the grand jury and/or ALL of it made PUBLIC in the paperwork, indictment, public story telling, etc etc etc... IF for NO other reason than ONLY to make the COPS JOB'S EASIER and make 'em LOOK GOOD for the cameras & the newspaper stories.

Right?

I mean, "smoke 'em if you got 'em, boys"... right?

IF they really DO have "something else" on Burt, WHY hasn't anyone SEEN any of it yet?

They only thing they are SAYING is "OMG OMG money transmission, no license, aaah! aaah! aaah!!!"

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March 15, 2015, 09:15:21 PM
 #393

he's off to jail for a long time for the terrible 'crime' of bitcoin trading!

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March 15, 2015, 11:11:19 PM
 #394

Oh, I know that. I wasn't claiming to know what the arrest was about but what it was not about because of the missing departments. It wasn't about running a PPT, guns or a money transmitting license.

I see your point but why then does the indictment only focus on the money transmitting license issue?

That's ALL they've put on there. Nothing else?

IF they HAVE bigger guns to use against Burt?  Why not use 'em?

One would THINK that IF somebody was a heinous Dr. Evil character involved in all sorts of ugly things like: drugs, guns, fraud, ponzi scams, molesting kittens, tearing tags off of mattresses, etc etc etc then ALL of it ought to be a visible part of the arguments to the grand jury and/or ALL of it made PUBLIC in the paperwork, indictment, public story telling, etc etc etc... IF for NO other reason than ONLY to make the COPS JOB'S EASIER and make 'em LOOK GOOD for the cameras & the newspaper stories.

Right?

I mean, "smoke 'em if you got 'em, boys"... right?

IF they really DO have "something else" on Burt, WHY hasn't anyone SEEN any of it yet?

They only thing they are SAYING is "OMG OMG money transmission, no license, aaah! aaah! aaah!!!"

KEVLARR


I understand and agree but why are they hiding the warrant with the patriot act? We can't even find out what they were really searching for! Even the family can't find out what they were looking for. Very odd.

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March 15, 2015, 11:22:14 PM
 #395

I understand and agree but why are they hiding the warrant with the patriot act? We can't even find out what they were really searching for! Even the family can't find out what they were looking for. Very odd.
That is one of the "features" (for a lack of a better term) of the patriot act. Everything is kept out of the public's view. I wouldn't be surprised if Burt and/or his attorney knows the contents of what they were looking for and possibly the basis for the warrant (this might not even be true - I am not that familiar with the law). I would say however if/when the case is resolved outside of court that a stipulation be that he agrees not to speak publicly about the case.

His wife said on the video on her website that they took over 700 BTC and $30,000 in cash from their home. I am somewhat surprised that he didn't have the BTC better protected.
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March 15, 2015, 11:52:38 PM
 #396

I understand and agree but why are they hiding the warrant with the patriot act? We can't even find out what they were really searching for! Even the family can't find out what they were looking for. Very odd.
That is one of the "features" (for a lack of a better term) of the patriot act. Everything is kept out of the public's view. I wouldn't be surprised if Burt and/or his attorney knows the contents of what they were looking for and possibly the basis for the warrant (this might not even be true - I am not that familiar with the law). I would say however if/when the case is resolved outside of court that a stipulation be that he agrees not to speak publicly about the case.

His wife said on the video on her website that they took over 700 BTC and $30,000 in cash from their home. I am somewhat surprised that he didn't have the BTC better protected.

Why use the patriot act at all? Are money transmitting licenses regulated by DHS now? The only they would ever say what was in the warrant was if they found exactly what they were looking for.

As for getting the btc there is a simple way to do it that always eludes geeks.


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March 15, 2015, 11:55:26 PM
Last edit: March 16, 2015, 12:11:29 AM by 2112
 #397

$30,000 in cash from their home
30k$ at their own home? Wife is a lawyer/paralegal? This is getting interesting.

Anyone care to speculate what would be the use of 30k$ to be kept at home? AFAIK nobody in the family was running a cash-based small business. I know people occasionally keeping much more than that at home, but they are in the cash-intensive business not involving Bitcoins.

Edit: E.g. I used to know a woman real estate agent who used to keep way over 100k$ in small bills very close to herself at all times. Her specialty was buying highly-appreciated (by value) but decrepit (by condition) real estate from alcoholics and other addicts.

What would be the business model requiring to keep 30k$ in cash at home? I don't care if legal or illegal. Please give your guesses.

Edit2: I also remember CFO of some rather large company keeping that amount of cash on hand at all times when his company was involved in lawsuits (not him personally) and the company used to employ many blue-collar workers living paycheck-to-paycheck (or paypacket-to-paypacket).

Please comment, critique, criticize or ridicule BIP 2112: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=54382.0
Long-term mining prognosis: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=91101.0
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March 16, 2015, 12:16:29 AM
 #398

$30,000 in cash from their home
30k$ at their own home? Wife is a lawyer/paralegal? This is getting interesting.

Anyone care to speculate what would be the use of 30k$ to be kept at home? AFAIK nobody in the family was running a cash-based small business. I know people occasionally keeping much more than that at home, but they are in the cash-intensive business not involving Bitcoins.

Edit: E.g. I used to know a woman real estate agent who used to keep way over 100k$ in small bills very close to herself at all times. Her specialty was buying highly-appreciated (by value) but decrepit (by condition) real estate from alcoholics and other addicts.

What would be the business model requiring to keep 30k$ in cash at home? I don't care if legal or illegal. Please give your guesses.

The only thing I can think of is buying and selling large quantities of Bitcoin. That is kind of strange but not unheard of entirely. I used to have an uncle (he died 30 years ago) that lived through bank failures a couple of times. He didn't trust banks. He kept all of his money hidden in a metal box somewhere in the woods behind his house. When he died several of my relatives destroyed the land behind the house looking for the box and never found it. That's a rare case but who hates banks more than Bitcoiners?

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March 16, 2015, 12:25:22 AM
Last edit: March 16, 2015, 12:36:12 AM by 2112
 #399

The only thing I can think of is buying and selling large quantities of Bitcoin. That is kind of strange but not unheard of entirely. I used to have an uncle (he died 30 years ago) that lived through bank failures a couple of times. He didn't trust banks. He kept all of his money hidden in a metal box somewhere in the woods behind his house. When he died several of my relatives destroyed the land behind the house looking for the box and never found it. That's a rare case but who hates banks more than Bitcoiners?
Yeah, I understand. But keeping such cash at your own home and not in some pre-arranged location away?

Our ex-CFO had a relative who died approximately in 2000, never had SSN (edit: or maybe he had it but never used it as an adult) nor bank account, did all transactions with suitcases of cash. But collecting his estate was a multi-week trip around the country to visit all the places where he stored it (mostly regular safes/storage as well as some hidden caches on his properties).

Edit: I know that e.g. European illegal immigrants to the USA, especially those who don't speak English well, tend to store/deposit their savings also in cash with the neighborhood groceries/restaurants/bars/bodegas/convenience stores. Sort of like Leon: The Professional http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0110413/ . But storing at home?


Please comment, critique, criticize or ridicule BIP 2112: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=54382.0
Long-term mining prognosis: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=91101.0
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March 16, 2015, 12:41:11 AM
 #400

I understand and agree but why are they hiding the warrant with the patriot act? We can't even find out what they were really searching for! Even the family can't find out what they were looking for. Very odd.
That is one of the "features" (for a lack of a better term) of the patriot act. Everything is kept out of the public's view. I wouldn't be surprised if Burt and/or his attorney knows the contents of what they were looking for and possibly the basis for the warrant (this might not even be true - I am not that familiar with the law). I would say however if/when the case is resolved outside of court that a stipulation be that he agrees not to speak publicly about the case.

His wife said on the video on her website that they took over 700 BTC and $30,000 in cash from their home. I am somewhat surprised that he didn't have the BTC better protected.

Why use the patriot act at all? Are money transmitting licenses regulated by DHS now? The only they would ever say what was in the warrant was if they found exactly what they were looking for.
Well that is the strange thing. There were a number of law enforcement agencies that were involved that probably shouldn't have been. I would say there is a good chance that the government at least though that Burt was involved in a lot worse things then what he was charged with. Based on the number of both agents and law enforcement agencies, they probably at least thought that he was somehow involved in Silk Road (I think he was arrested right around the time that the guy from SR2 was arrested).
As for getting the btc there is a simple way to do it that always eludes geeks.


Yea I get that, however the government is only allowed to do so much. I think it was said above that he was put in solitary confinement for two days (and his wife did mention that as well), so it is possible that he gave up the keys during this time. 

I would think however that it would have been smarter for him to plead the 5th when asked how to access the private keys, as with the private keys the public addresses can be calculated, and with the public addresses, in theory it would be possible to link transactions to a crime that he was alleged to have committed, so giving up the private keys could be considered testifying against himself which you cannot be forced to do.

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