BurtW arrested (update: charges dropped!)

[BurtW]

So, someone must risk going to jail and total financial ruin in front of a jury in order to impress you?  Have you personally had to face five years in prison on a coin flip?  Even if you have and even if you did take it to trail so what?  My wife and I did struggle with the whole thing over many months.  We went back and forth on it.  Sometimes thinking we should get our day in court to prove beyond doubt that they were wrong and risk five the years in prison.  You can sit there behind you keyboard in your easy chair anonymously spouting your shit but your opinion simply does not matter.

Let's hear your story of bravery and bravado "proved my innocence at all cost" against a similar situation.

Can't regale you with tales of my daring-do, always having thanked my lucky stars for plea deals. At the time, a public defender was all I could afford.
On the other hand, I never trotted out my family to help me beg on the internet to cover my legal expenses, and never plead out when I was 100% innocent.
Should I bother mentioning that I never told sob stories about the US legal system failing me, after opting out of a jury trial & having agreed to a deal?

So you have never faced a situation even remotely similar to mine.  Fair enough.

[SomaliRebel]

So, someone must risk going to jail and total financial ruin in front of a jury in order to impress you?  Have you personally had to face five years in prison on a coin flip?  Even if you have and even if you did take it to trail so what?  My wife and I did struggle with the whole thing over many months.  We went back and forth on it.  Sometimes thinking we should get our day in court to prove beyond doubt that they were wrong and risk five the years in prison.  You can sit there behind you keyboard in your easy chair anonymously spouting your shit but your opinion simply does not matter.

Let's hear your story of bravery and bravado "proved my innocence at all cost" against a similar situation.

Can't regale you with tales of my daring-do, always having thanked my lucky stars for plea deals. At the time, a public defender was all I could afford.
On the other hand, I never trotted out my family to help me beg on the internet to cover my legal expenses, and never plead out when I was 100% innocent.
Should I bother mentioning that I never told sob stories about the US legal system failing me, after opting out of a jury trial & having agreed to a deal?

So you have never face a situation even remotely similar to mine.  Fair enough.

What part of "I have, but handled it differently" didn't come across?

[Carlton Banks]

What part of "I have, but handled it differently" didn't come across?

The part that involves elucidating just how terrible you are at trolling. How does it feel to be so poorly accomplished in an activity you enjoy so much?

[SomaliRebel]

http://www.returnofkings.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/maidens.png

Not helping the object of your affections, Carlton. You're embarrassing him. 4realz.

Why are you upset? If I, somehow, cheapened your feelings for Burt by telling you that they're normal and common, I'm really sorry.
Accept my apology plz? Are we good?

[BurtW]

So, someone must risk going to jail and total financial ruin in front of a jury in order to impress you?  Have you personally had to face five years in prison on a coin flip?  Even if you have and even if you did take it to trail so what?  My wife and I did struggle with the whole thing over many months.  We went back and forth on it.  Sometimes thinking we should get our day in court to prove beyond doubt that they were wrong and risk five the years in prison.  You can sit there behind you keyboard in your easy chair anonymously spouting your shit but your opinion simply does not matter.

Let's hear your story of bravery and bravado "proved my innocence at all cost" against a similar situation.

Can't regale you with tales of my daring-do, always having thanked my lucky stars for plea deals. At the time, a public defender was all I could afford.
On the other hand, I never trotted out my family to help me beg on the internet to cover my legal expenses, and never plead out when I was 100% innocent.
Should I bother mentioning that I never told sob stories about the US legal system failing me, after opting out of a jury trial & having agreed to a deal?

So you have never face a situation even remotely similar to mine.  Fair enough.

What part of "I have, but handled it differently" didn't come across?

I see.  I misunderstood you.  So, you used a public defender in a complex Federal felony case?  I assumed the charges were for DUI or something like that - my bad.  At any rate anyone who would use a public defender in a Federal felony case is much braver than I am.  I don't have the stones to trust my life to someone who basically works for the prosecution and can't be truly adversarial on my behalf without risking all future deals with the prosecution.

My hat's off to you o brave one.  You showed me.

You are also, obviously, more principled than me due to your hard stance on never pleading or dealing when you were totally innocent.  I love your "I am innocent and willing to pay whatever it takes to prove it" stance.  Good for you.  

I tip my hat to you o principled one.  You showed me.

[jbreher]

Maybe someone should stop thinking about things like BitLicense and start thinking on how to properly seize and punish those who use cryptocurrencies for illegal activities and a way to protect those who are wrongly arrested and/or investigated.

Maybe we should think about how to properly punish wrongdoers. The fact that some crimes employ crypto is irrelevant.

While I know the doctrine of 'money laundering' being a crime currently exists, I find these laws insane. There is nothing evil or immoral about moving money about in any fashion. The mere movement of money harms no one. Some time back, lazy enforcers were somehow able to enact laws that they could use when they were not able to actually prove real wrongdoing. It sounds reasonable on its face, but from first principles, there is nothing good about this. Now we've reached the point where innocent people routinely are prosecuted for things which have no evil intent.

[gmaxwell]

I'm pretty shocked to see some of the comments in this thread.  BurtW has nothing to prove here, and those of you attacking him should be ashamed of yourselves for attacking a victim.

[TheButterZone]

justice by a committee of people who are not smart enough to get out of jury duty, don't want to be there, take what the judge says as gospel, and wouldn't know a Bitcoin from a hole in the ground

Exactly why EVERY bitcoiner should be prepared and absolutely willing to serve on a jury and nullify totalitarianism.

[_Miracle]

I don't want you to say anything. Consider that saying nothing is an improvement on what you did say.

Perfectly stated :-)

*BurtW: I actually read your post and glad to see things worked out (well "sort of" worked out).

It is cases like yours that will set precedents.
I would like to integrate bitcoin into real estate when I start practicing again but there seems still a ways to go for that.

[Monnt]

Very glad to here the charges were dropped, best of wishes to BurtW!

Same here! Were his assets returned to him after they were taken by homeland? It's horrible to see people of the forum disappear.

[QuestionAuthority]

There is only one permanent solution to this problem. All the decent people like Burt in this fucked up country need to leave. Let all the asshole government leeches stay here and suck the blood out of each other until they're all dead. Then we can come back and reoccupy the empty land. Several countries have agreed to offer asylum to any American that wants to leave if that fool Trump wins. We should take them up on it.

[jbreher]

Several countries have agreed to offer asylum to any American that wants to leave 

The List:

1.
2.
3.

missing any country?

[SomaliRebel]

So, someone must risk going to jail and total financial ruin in front of a jury in order to impress you?  Have you personally had to face five years in prison on a coin flip?  Even if you have and even if you did take it to trail so what?  My wife and I did struggle with the whole thing over many months.  We went back and forth on it.  Sometimes thinking we should get our day in court to prove beyond doubt that they were wrong and risk five the years in prison.  You can sit there behind you keyboard in your easy chair anonymously spouting your shit but your opinion simply does not matter.

Let's hear your story of bravery and bravado "proved my innocence at all cost" against a similar situation.

Can't regale you with tales of my daring-do, always having thanked my lucky stars for plea deals. At the time, a public defender was all I could afford.
On the other hand, I never trotted out my family to help me beg on the internet to cover my legal expenses, and never plead out when I was 100% innocent.
Should I bother mentioning that I never told sob stories about the US legal system failing me, after opting out of a jury trial & having agreed to a deal?

So you have never face a situation even remotely similar to mine.  Fair enough.

What part of "I have, but handled it differently" didn't come across?

I see.  I misunderstood you.  So, you used a public defender in a complex Federal felony case?  I assumed the charges were for DUI or something like that - my bad.  At any rate anyone who would use a public defender in a Federal felony case is much braver than I am.  I don't have the stones to trust my life to someone who basically works for the prosecution and can't be truly adversarial on my behalf without risking all future deals with the prosecution.

My hat's off to you o brave one.  You showed me.

You are also, obviously, more principled than me due to your hard stance on never pleading or dealing when you were totally innocent.  I love your "I am innocent and willing to pay whatever it takes to prove it" stance.  Good for you.  

I tip my hat to you o principled one.  You showed me.  

You forgot to mention that we also trotted out our dog on one of our begging pages.  She is very upset you left out her contribution to the cause.  See her cute picture here:

http://www.jmwagner.com/

>So, you used a public defender in a complex Federal felony case?
Not a federal case, your dick is clearly girthier than mine, OG. Though time is time.

>I assumed the charges were for DUI or something like that
No, nothing like that.

>At any rate anyone who would use a public defender in a Federal felony case is much braver than I am.
Which part of "I couldn't afford a real attorney & wasn't willing to trot out my family to beg for money" have I failed to communicate?

>I don't have the stones to trust my life to someone who basically works for the prosecution
In case still unclear, poor != brave; poor people on trial for murder with nothing but a public defender aren't brave, or even necessarily stupid. They're fucking poor. Asshole.

[SomaliRebel]

Several countries have agreed to offer asylum to any American that wants to leave  

The List:

1.
2.
3.

missing any country?

Clearly Americans have been granted political refugee status, by North Korea, by Soviet Union, more recently Russia.
Caveat: you must truly be a political refugee; being a drug dealer or a money launderer who got popped doesn't cut it.

So perhaps Burt is shit out of luck. There's always Liberland, which I'm certain would welcome Burt with open arms. He might have to bring his own goat or something, not sure about the details.  I'm just an ideas man.

Maybe we should think about how to properly punish wrongdoers. The fact that some crimes employ crypto is irrelevant.

While I know the doctrine of 'money laundering' being a crime currently exists, I find these laws insane. There is nothing evil or immoral about moving money about in any fashion. The mere movement of money harms no one. Some time back, lazy enforcers were somehow able to enact laws that they could use when they were not able to actually prove real wrongdoing. It sounds reasonable on its face, but from first principles, there is nothing good about this. Now we've reached the point where innocent people routinely are prosecuted for things which have no evil intent.

The world is rife with precrime. Driving drunk is illegal, even tho most who drive drunk don't cause accidents. While I agree with you on a purely theoretical level, there's a statist cuck part of me that's secretly glad that hand grenades aren't sold from vending carts on playgrounds.

[BurtW]

Not a federal case

I couldn't afford a real attorney

In case still unclear, poor != brave

So it was not a Federal felony case and you were too poor to afford an attorney.  Therefore you had no assets worth seizing.  You were not charged with a paperwork "crime" where civil asset forfeiture attached and did not have all your personal and corporate property seized in a separate civil asset forfeiture case.  You were not the target of a case centered on taking assets because you had none.  You were not charged as and treated as a terrorist under the patriot act.

Therefore my original comment was correct:  you have not faced anything like my situation.

The day I was arrested they did not have to and would not tell me why I was being arrested because I was arrested under a sealed arrest warrant under the anti-terrorism AML part of the patriot act.  They did tell me they were going to search my house and sent 22 cars full of agents to my house to execute an all day search.  When I asked them what they were searching for they told me they did not have to tell me what they were searching for because they had a sealed search warrant.  Since they did not find what they were looking for at my home they asked for and were granted a separate sealed search for my corporate offices over the phone that day.

After 24 hours in Denver county jail I was brought before the judge and was finally told what I was charged with and why I was arrested (18-1960 operating a MTB without a license).  So did you spend 24 hours in jail not knowing why you were there?  Did you spend 12 hours just in the intake room because the jailers could not figure out why you were there and could not admit you into the jail until they figured out why you were arrested?

This brings me to the point you raised about poor != brave.  I agree with you.  You have a very good point.  When I was brought in front of the judge after spending 24 hours in jail I was not the only one there for processing that day.  There were about 20 or so people in the box that had been arrested on federal charges (mostly drugs and some weapons charges).

The judge started with the first guy on the list and here is how the entire interaction went with everyone except me:

Judge:  You are charged with X, do you have representation?

Prisoner:  No.

Judge:  The prisoner is declared indigent, we will find you an attorney, go back to jail until we do.  Next.

Out of the 20 people arrested that day I was the only one with representation.  My interaction went something like this:

Judge:  You are charged with 18-1960, operating a money transmittal business without a license (I was finally told why I was arrested!) do you have representation?

Me:  Yes. (My wife had cached in our IRAs in order to raise the $50,000 retainer in the 24 hours since my arrest).

Judge:  (looks totally baffled, taken aback, like this has never happened before and he does not know what to do next) Uh, well, uh OK, move over to this table then.

I am taken out of the box with all the other prisoners and am moved to the table with my lawyer.  He shows me a piece of paper which shows the charges against me - first time I had seen it.

My attorney:  we would like to discuss bail, Mr. Wagner is ...

Judge cuts him off:  Ms. Korver (the prosecutor) What is the state's desire?

Korver:  The state requests the maximum time to allow us to find all his assets and make sure he does not hide any.  Six days.

Judge:  OK, prisoner will be held over until Monday and be scheduled to be brought back for a bond hearing.  Next.

You are correct.  Poor people are arrested in droves.  I felt sorry for them for a lot of reasons but at that time my get wrenching realization, having spent just one night in jail, was that all those people, and many more before them and many more after them, were going to have to go back to jail until they found an attorney for them and as we all know that could take days.   Days in jail just waiting to get an attorney assigned and get the process started.  

I felt very blessed to have savings, a wife that was able to back me up while I was in jail, a bank that was able to get the IRA cashed out in that short of a time period and on and on.  If fact this entire experience has taught me just how blessed I am and had made me more grateful than ever for my friends and family.

I'm pretty shocked to see some of the comments in this thread.  BurtW has nothing to prove here, and those of you attacking him should be ashamed of yourselves for attacking a victim.

Greg,  

This guy does not bother me at all, just an amateur troll probably increasing his post count so he can sell the account.  He is a great foil for the discussion and is very supportive in avidly bumping my thread for me so all is good.

I really appreciate your support.  You are one of the people here that I respect the most so your post really meant a lot to me.

Thanks.  

[BurtW]

Very glad to here the charges were dropped, best of wishes to BurtW!

Same here! Were his assets returned to him after they were taken by homeland? It's horrible to see people of the forum disappear.

Except for the $40,000 in cash and $40,000 in Bitcoins everything else was returned.

There have been a few high profile members that have just disappeared never to return.  The case that worries me the most is DeathAndTaxes (16028 posts, 1218 activity, Donator status, Date Registered: September 04, 2011, Last Active: April 22, 2015)  This is a very suspicious disappearance of a great guy who I really respected.  I have tried a few times to contact him but to no avail.

[wachtwoord]

Very glad to here the charges were dropped, best of wishes to BurtW!

Same here! Were his assets returned to him after they were taken by homeland? It's horrible to see people of the forum disappear.

Except for the $40,000 in cash and $40,000 in Bitcoins everything else was returned.

There have been a few high profile members that have just disappeared never to return.  The case that worries me the most is DeathAndTaxes (16028 posts, 1218 activity, Donator status, Date Registered: September 04, 2011, Last Active: April 22, 2015)  This is a very suspicious disappearance of a great guy who I really respected.  I have tried a few times to contact him but to no avail.

DeathAndTaxes always seemed to be a great guy and I valued his opinion greatly.

However, he has been involved in a shady business startup in which it seems he at least didn't act entirely ethical. Maybe one of his investors took action?

[SomaliRebel]

Not a federal case

I couldn't afford a real attorney

In case still unclear, poor != brave

So it was not a Federal felony case and you were too poor to afford an attorney.  Therefore you had no assets worth seizing.  You were not charged with a paperwork "crime" where civil asset forfeiture attached and did not have all your personal and corporate property seized in a separate civil asset forfeiture case.  You were not the target of a case centered on taking assets because you had none.  You were not charged as and treated as a terrorist under the patriot act.

Therefore my original comment was correct:  you have not faced anything like my situation.

Correct. Poor people have no no assets worth seizing, due to having none. To be that clever...
Albeit I was facing serious jail time. Did I say serious? Lol, I was a poor, jail time is nothing for poors, they don't suffer the pain of being parted from their shekels.
Not like us.

The day I was arrested they [tale of woe and inhuman torment, suburban-dad-cum-money-launderer spends a day in lockup]

Burt, it may shock you to learn that teenagers getting popped for illegal possession typically spend more time in lockup than you did. Get nailed on Friday, and you've got yourself an all-expense weekend stay at Teh Man's house. A delightful fete, surrounded by fellow freedom fighters, chatting about daring khrymez over tasty baloney & cheese sammiches.

When I was brought in front of the judge [tale of woe and inhuman torment, suburban-dad-cum-money-launderer spends a day in lockup, part 2] I felt very blessed to have savings, a wife that was able to back me up while I was in jail, a bank that was able to get the IRA cashed out in that short of a time period and on and on.  If fact this entire experience has taught me just how blessed I am and had made me more grateful than ever for my friends and family.

...and yet you trotted out your family (and your doggy) to beg for money on the interweb, like the true Randian hero that you are. Not to buy representation for those poors you so earnestly pity, but to replenish your shekel stash

[_Miracle]

There is only one permanent solution to this problem. All the decent people like Burt in this fucked up country need to leave. Let all the asshole government leeches stay here and suck the blood out of each other until they're all dead. Then we can come back and reoccupy the empty land. Several countries have agreed to offer asylum to any American that wants to leave if that fool Trump wins. We should take them up on it.

I hope all the decent people stay and stand up for what they believe in.
Although as we see here with Burt/and family it can come with great risk/cost/loss.

It would be encouraging to see more bitcoin enthusiasts integrate it into their current professions: specialized attorneys, CPAs, brokers ect.
Byrne did it with Overstock and we have yet to see if there will "suddenly" become a law that makes Overstock's acceptance of bitcoin illegal.

[SomaliRebel]

Where to go?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberland