Erik Voorhees favors NXT

[HalFinneysBrain]

NXT is an interesting experiment and I salute the experimenters.  The question in my mind is: what incentive is there for stakers to secure the network?  It seems the coinbase rewards are nil.  So, it is a combination of altruism and simply the desire to keep the network alive to maintain the value of holdings.  Is this enough?  We will find out. 

Bitcoin miners have no incentive to mine Bitcoins at a loss (relative to electricity cost).  Rationally, each miner would shut off if the price goes below this point.  (They might be in a position of having spent money on hardware that they can never hope to recoup, but still be operating above their electricity cost, as a way to reduce losses).


Large NXT holders should be willing to forge, even at a loss, because they risk losing all of the value of their stake if the network dies.  Unless they give up completely, they should be willing to continue forging.  Its not altruism, it is in their best interest to keep the network running so that they can hope to recoup the value of their stake in the future!

[1714484863]

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[EvilDave]

Staking in NXT (forging is the term NXT uses) doesn't provide a massive financial incentive. As no new coins are created, securing the network by forging blocks is only rewarded by the transaction fees included in each block.
I'm not 100% certain on the numbers (and too lazy to check right now) but the NXT forging revenue was estimated as approximately 2-5% profit per year. Not actually bad, but not not exactly NeuCoin, either.

On the other hand, forging is pretty damn simple (run a NXT node, log in to your account, log out) and NXT isn't a resource hog, so having a NXT node running in the background isn't a hardship for consumer level users, and the businesses/projects that are using NXT need to run nodes anyway, so staking/forging for them is almost automatic.

Take a look at:
http://www.peerexplorer.com/
for live stats on the NXT network.....293 running nodes right now.

[funkenstein]

NXT is an interesting experiment and I salute the experimenters.  The question in my mind is: what incentive is there for stakers to secure the network?  It seems the coinbase rewards are nil.  So, it is a combination of altruism and simply the desire to keep the network alive to maintain the value of holdings.  Is this enough?  We will find out. 

Bitcoin miners have no incentive to mine Bitcoins at a loss (relative to electricity cost).  Rationally, each miner would shut off if the price goes below this point.  (They might be in a position of having spent money on hardware that they can never hope to recoup, but still be operating above their electricity cost, as a way to reduce losses).


Large NXT holders should be willing to forge, even at a loss, because they risk losing all of the value of their stake if the network dies.  Unless they give up completely, they should be willing to continue forging.  Its not altruism, it is in their best interest to keep the network running so that they can hope to recoup the value of their stake in the future!

OK I can follow that logic, thanks.   Next (no pun intended), lets look at network security on a per confirmation basis. 

With bitcoin I can easily estimate the cost of reversing (by renting hash) a singly confirmed transaction: 25.15 BTC  (25 coinbase plus average of 0.15 fees).     

Now how much would a similar estimate run (renting NXT from holders to get the required stake) to reverse a singly confirmed NXT transaction? 

[Zer0Sum]

I seriously doubt any IPO coin has a future at all and wish people would stop shilling.  The distribution for all of them is absurdly bad, and currency requires broad distribution (ie: can be mined by hundreds of thousands of people in the world).  In that regard, only Bitcoin, Dogecoin, Litecoin, and a couple of other alts have any success in forming a non-comical distribution scheme.  You can probably fit everyone that owns NXT into a Honda Civic.

NXT is also one of the few coins that pumpers avoid like the plague because they know they'll get dumped on.  It's a pretty big warning sign that people like Wolong pumped junk coins like Earthcoin but were scared to go anywhere near NXT.

This here is the opposite of "shilling"... uninformed, false attack posts...
NXT has 100,000 accounts of which about 1,000 and very active on a daily basis.

Pumpers avoid NXT because it's too stable to manipulate...
It's #12-13 in liquidity so would be a prime target without NXT whales keeping it within a range...
(This is organic, in sharp contrast to centralized, secretive Ripple shamelessly manipulating XRP in WIDE ranges for personal gain).  

Crypto has thrown decentralization out the window... except NXT 100% embraces it.
There is not much debate that it's the best technology with new releases and features constantly.

Promotion is where NXT falls short...
Partly because it's a Philosophical Mission, not a shameless Money Grab like BTS or Nu-Central-Bank.

NXT features are so rich and versatile...
That it's like the Apple II 1982 waiting for VisiCalc to be invented...
One killer app/business partner away from explosive growth (that's what window shoppers miss).

A list of businesses on the NXT Exchange:

https://nxtforum.org/asset-exchange-general/community-asset-board-summary-%28w-i-p%29/

[Daedelus]

Any word from James, Olivier or Roger?

[box0211]

i must say nxt is one of the major underrated coins out there. the stuff they have so far is a bit mind blowing to whatever one else is just building. its sad that they dont have the marketing down.

[Este Nuno]

i must say nxt is one of the major underrated coins out there. the stuff they have so far is a bit mind blowing to whatever one else is just building. its sad that they dont have the marketing down.

Marketing a crypto is kind of difficult. Because people are really resistant to things that aren't Bitcoin and like to brand everything a scam. That or you get accused of 'pumping'.

I think marketing to people outside of the crypto community is probably a lot more beneficial.

[Daedelus]

After BTER, more people using Multigateway would be beneficial 》multigateway.org

It would also have a pan-crypto benefit as people would get used to moving away from centralised exchanges. We'd then be more prepared for Average Joe to join us, especially with simple services built on Multigateway.

[EvilDave]

i must say nxt is one of the major underrated coins out there. the stuff they have so far is a bit mind blowing to whatever one else is just building. its sad that they dont have the marketing down.

Marketing a crypto is kind of difficult. Because people are really resistant to things that aren't Bitcoin and like to brand everything a scam. That or you get accused of 'pumping'.

I think marketing to people outside of the crypto community is probably a lot more beneficial.

Yeah. Marketing NXT is tricky. +1
Inside crypto, you get grief for being a shill or pumper, outside crypto you have to spend 2 days explaining basic concepts before you can even mention NXT.
Still, the NXT eco-system is expanding quickly, with new businesses and users coming into NXT, so we are heading in the right direction....onwards and upwards.


And, yes, use MultiGateWay:





http://multigateway.org/
https://nxtforum.org/nxtservices-releases/
https://coinomat.com/
http://www.supernet.org/

[r0ach]

Pumpers avoid NXT because it's too stable to manipulate...
It's #12-13 in liquidity so would be a prime target without NXT whales keeping it within a range...
(This is organic, in sharp contrast to centralized, secretive Ripple shamelessly manipulating XRP in WIDE ranges for personal gain).  

I don't believe NXT magically floats at a stable range "organically".  I've watched the orders on NXT a long ways back.  There were always constant shovelings of the same number of coins coming down on the order book like clockwork.  When something like only 12 guys owned just about every coin and not a single one flinched with any large dumps to make a quick, large profit, something is fishy.  Either those guys colluded behind closed doors to try and prevent a price crash from any single member selling, or maybe those 12 guys are really 1 guy. 

It doesn't make sense at all.  From looking at the constant large caches of same number of coins constantly being sold, it was clear the holders did want to sell, and wanted to sell a lot of coins.  Several parties wanting to do the same thing all at once without imploding the price would just not be possible.  There was/is clearly some kind of large scale price fixing going on, otherwise there would have been some huge spikes downward that may or may not have recovered, but we just didn't see them.  NXT has always felt like a single guy, or room full of guys is just controlling everything about price.

[Daedelus]

Pumpers avoid NXT because it's too stable to manipulate...
It's #12-13 in liquidity so would be a prime target without NXT whales keeping it within a range...
(This is organic, in sharp contrast to centralized, secretive Ripple shamelessly manipulating XRP in WIDE ranges for personal gain).  

I don't believe NXT magically floats at a stable range "organically".  I've watched the orders on NXT a long ways back.  There were always constant shovelings of the same number of coins coming down on the order book like clockwork.  When something like only 12 guys owned just about every coin and not a single one flinched with any large dumps to make a quick, large profit, something is fishy.  Either those guys colluded behind closed doors to try and prevent a price crash from any single member selling, or maybe those 12 guys are really 1 guy.  

It doesn't make sense at all.  From looking at the constant large caches of same number of coins constantly being sold, it was clear the holders did want to sell, and wanted to sell a lot of coins.  Several parties wanting to do the same thing all at once without imploding the price would just not be possible.  There was/is clearly some kind of large scale price fixing going on, otherwise there would have been some huge spikes downward that may or may not have recovered, but we just didn't see them.  NXT has always felt like a single guy, or room full of guys is just controlling everything about price.

Links? Or do I just trust your beliefs

[achimsmile]

NXT has always felt like a single guy

Yes.

Clearly a single guy who controls hundreds of nodes on IPs all over the world, who has a few thousand forum accounts and trades on 10 exchanges at the same time. He impersonates 12 devs and he looks like a russian/american/european/asian guy

 

[EvilDave]

Yeah, it's me, I admit it. 

[nzminer]

i must say nxt is one of the major underrated coins out there. the stuff they have so far is a bit mind blowing to whatever one else is just building. its sad that they dont have the marketing down.

Marketing a crypto is kind of difficult. Because people are really resistant to things that aren't Bitcoin and like to brand everything a scam. That or you get accused of 'pumping'.

I think marketing to people outside of the crypto community is probably a lot more beneficial.

Yeah. Marketing NXT is tricky. +1
Inside crypto, you get grief for being a shill or pumper, outside crypto you have to spend 2 days explaining basic concepts before you can even mention NXT.
Still, the NXT eco-system is expanding quickly, with new businesses and users coming into NXT, so we are heading in the right direction....onwards and upwards.


And, yes, use MultiGateWay:





http://multigateway.org/
https://nxtforum.org/nxtservices-releases/
https://coinomat.com/
http://www.supernet.org/

Yes i agree, marketing NXT is not easy, but we are making constant progress, probably alot more than other cryptos that make headlines and then are long forgotten 12 months on.

NXT is the only (alternative) currency i have complete trust in being successful.
Most of these crappy BTC clones will all be dead in another 12 months.

Yay! That means that CMC should only be down to one A4 sized page!

[Marc De Mesel]

The interview by deBitcoin with Erik Voorhees and Roger Ver was great. When asked what they thought about Bitcoin 2.O coins like NXT and Counterparty they said the following: http://youtu.be/WWC_hyKRV0o?t=36m47s

In summary Roger Ver is open to projects with better properties like Bitcoin. He liked what he had heard about Nxt but hadn't taken the time to dive into it yet. Erik Voorhees liked the decentralized asset exchange very much but had only invested for 1% into altcoins.

[e-coinomist]

Bitcoin miners have no incentive to mine Bitcoins at a loss (relative to electricity cost).  Rationally, each miner would shut off if the price goes below this point.  (They might be in a position of having spent money on hardware that they can never hope to recoup, but still be operating above their electricity cost, as a way to reduce losses).

Large NXT holders should be willing to forge, even at a loss, because they risk losing all of the value of their stake if the network dies.  Unless they give up completely, they should be willing to continue forging.  Its not altruism, it is in their best interest to keep the network running so that they can hope to recoup the value of their stake in the future!

OK I can follow that logic, thanks.   Next (no pun intended), lets look at network security on a per confirmation basis. 

With bitcoin I can easily estimate the cost of reversing (by renting hash) a singly confirmed transaction: 25.15 BTC  (25 coinbase plus average of 0.15 fees).     

Now how much would a similar estimate run (renting NXT from holders to get the required stake) to reverse a singly confirmed NXT transaction? 

2 confirmations 2x 25.15 BTC, 3x ... this is bekomming costly of people have some half hour of time to spend on security.

Staking coins usually have way faster cycle times. Even getting worser if you scale that up onto a half hour.

[funkenstein]

Bitcoin miners have no incentive to mine Bitcoins at a loss (relative to electricity cost).  Rationally, each miner would shut off if the price goes below this point.  (They might be in a position of having spent money on hardware that they can never hope to recoup, but still be operating above their electricity cost, as a way to reduce losses).

Large NXT holders should be willing to forge, even at a loss, because they risk losing all of the value of their stake if the network dies.  Unless they give up completely, they should be willing to continue forging.  Its not altruism, it is in their best interest to keep the network running so that they can hope to recoup the value of their stake in the future!

OK I can follow that logic, thanks.   Next (no pun intended), lets look at network security on a per confirmation basis. 

With bitcoin I can easily estimate the cost of reversing (by renting hash) a singly confirmed transaction: 25.15 BTC  (25 coinbase plus average of 0.15 fees).     

Now how much would a similar estimate run (renting NXT from holders to get the required stake) to reverse a singly confirmed NXT transaction? 

2 confirmations 2x 25.15 BTC, 3x ... this is bekomming costly of people have some half hour of time to spend on security.

Staking coins usually have way faster cycle times. Even getting worser if you scale that up onto a half hour.

Thanks for your reply!

My point was, there is 25.15 BTC worth of incentive for double spend avoiding security in 10 minutes of confirmation on bitcoin.  For NXT, it looks like there is jack shit in 10 minutes. 

Can you make a better estimate?   

[r0ach]

Bitcoin miners have no incentive to mine Bitcoins at a loss (relative to electricity cost).  Rationally, each miner would shut off if the price goes below this point.  (They might be in a position of having spent money on hardware that they can never hope to recoup, but still be operating above their electricity cost, as a way to reduce losses).

Large NXT holders should be willing to forge, even at a loss, because they risk losing all of the value of their stake if the network dies.  Unless they give up completely, they should be willing to continue forging.  Its not altruism, it is in their best interest to keep the network running so that they can hope to recoup the value of their stake in the future!

OK I can follow that logic, thanks.   Next (no pun intended), lets look at network security on a per confirmation basis.  

With bitcoin I can easily estimate the cost of reversing (by renting hash) a singly confirmed transaction: 25.15 BTC  (25 coinbase plus average of 0.15 fees).    

Now how much would a similar estimate run (renting NXT from holders to get the required stake) to reverse a singly confirmed NXT transaction?  

2 confirmations 2x 25.15 BTC, 3x ... this is bekomming costly of people have some half hour of time to spend on security.

Staking coins usually have way faster cycle times. Even getting worser if you scale that up onto a half hour.

Thanks for your reply!

My point was, there is 25.15 BTC worth of incentive for double spend avoiding security in 10 minutes of confirmation on bitcoin.  For NXT, it looks like there is jack shit in 10 minutes.  

Can you make a better estimate?  

You just brought up the main problem with virtual assets located on a block chain and why those projects seem to keep imploding or not really going anywhere.  The security of the chain only accounts for the monetary value of the coins.  When you make the coins also represent assets, PoW miners aren't receiving a cut of that, so there's no hash power security increase on their end.  You then end up with high incentive to attack, and low incentive to defend.  

For PoS assets, they're piggybacking on top of the system like PoW, the only difference is that PoS attacks are always far more catastrophic in the long term since coin ownership is network control.  Then you have the fact that "ownership" is all defined by the legal system, and no legal system recognizes the authority of a block chain to determine who owns what when tied to assets in the real world.

[kokojie]

But does he like how the NXT initially was distributed?

Are you okay with people in 2010 buying BTC for cents? I know you are, so what's your problem?

Same early adopter principle. Those who found out about NXT earlier were rewarded. Just like BTC.

Not really, in BTC early days, no one knew cryptocurrency would work.

Also, NXT distribution is beyond insane, even today, 15 people hold 80% of all NXT. Bitcoin distribution today is much more fair.

[nzminer]

But does he like how the NXT initially was distributed?

Are you okay with people in 2010 buying BTC for cents? I know you are, so what's your problem?

Same early adopter principle. Those who found out about NXT earlier were rewarded. Just like BTC.

Not really, in BTC early days, no one knew cryptocurrency would work.

Also, NXT distribution is beyond insane, even today, 15 people hold 80% of all NXT. Bitcoin distribution today is much more fair.

So what ? Ripple also holds almost 95% of their coins with Ripple Labs, Bitshare is not better... Darkcoin ? What about their huge premine, are all of these coins hidden now ? or are they really "fair" distributed ?

Litecoin has only large bag holders there are 10 people with over 8% of the max coin supply.

I really don't see why everyone mocks Nxt so much every other crypto project have these problems right now.

Completley agree!

Dont know why anyone would complain, NXT is as cheap as chips right now, buy, hodl, and promote NXT.

NXT WILL PREVAIL!