Bitcoin Killer App: High Yield Investments

[repentance]

Your argument would be stronger if you repeat FIAT not 5 times, but 10 times or so and word BITCOINS not 2 times but say 20. Also use not just all caps but all caps and bold and larger red blinking font. There it is seems not much else that can be done to make your point any more valid.

[foggyb]

This. It's what I said, but with more words and in a clearer format.

Save your energy. Some people just don't get it, and won't until everyone on their block is buying groceries with bitcoins. The internet is full of them, crying about 'early adopters'.

[BoardGameCoin]

2. Stop relying on Occam's razor as your logical backing. If we apply Occam's razor to the graph of cos(X), we get a straight line.

plz explain? kthxbai!!!!




In all seriousness, could you explain what you mean here? I'm the first to admit that Occam's razor gets used over much and often erroneously, but maybe it does not mean what you think it means?

-bgc

[Frankie]

Again,
"I know people who get that with their mining hardware. And I see Bitcoin loans every day which are done at  10% MPR. 10% MPR is too good to be true in FIAT. FIAT! FIAT FIAT FIAT. But it happens, legitimately, in BITCOIN. BITCOIN."

Which leads to the question -- why is it so much more expensive to borrow Bitcoins than it is to borrow dollars? And I think the answer is that you're competing with more scammers in the Bitcoin world, driving the interest rate way up.

Yeah. When a kid has to pay more than the mob charges to compete with scammers, I'm not really sure it's a good thing for the honest parties, let alone the bitcoin economy.

Incidentally, I've also seen a lot of arguments here about bitcoins being a fundamentally deflationary currency, which should make them more valuable as investments. That may be sort of true as far as it goes, but it would mean the interest rates denominated in bitcoins should be lower, not higher, because of cross-currency arbitrage. If the long term trend of bitcoins is to appreciate at 28% annually, that would make a credit card cash advance basically free. With such a supposedly healthy deflationary currency, the rate should be effectively zero. And if you think the price of bitcoins will be basically, and that bitcoins will hover around single digits forever, one should expect the cost of credit in bitcoins to approximate what it does for in the real world.

If the legitimate rate for bitcoins was really 3000%, or even "only" a "legitimate" 67% (aka 1% weekly), it would actually bode poorly for the currency--it would indicate that Bitcoins were so likely to crash that lenders insist upon ridiculous rates and borrowers willingly pay them. I think these signals are false, but only because "legitimate" lending has to compete with HYIP.

[SMTB1963]

I agree that there's a potential consumer of this "killer ap" born every minute.

Not sure it's good for bitcoin, however.

I think the reason why we are seeing such high yields is because Bitcoin enables a truly free market for speculation.

We all know, with Bitcoin there are no capital controls, no chargebacks, lower transaction fees, faster transactions, greater anonymity, no risk of seizure or interference, and no underlying economy.

FTFY

Yeah, my last few posts here have been rather trollish.  But believe it or not, I really want bitcoin to succeed.  Thing is, btc will not be a societal good until it is broadly used as a medium of exchange (IMO).  I check in here ever so often to see if there's any progress on that front...sadly I think there's regression rather than progression.  Still the same old focus on the greater fool theory of investing, as displayed in the title of this thread.

 

[nimda]

Again,
"I know people who get that with their mining hardware. And I see Bitcoin loans every day which are done at  10% MPR. 10% MPR is too good to be true in FIAT. FIAT! FIAT FIAT FIAT. But it happens, legitimately, in BITCOIN. BITCOIN."

Which leads to the question -- why is it so much more expensive to borrow Bitcoins than it is to borrow dollars? And I think the answer is that you're competing with more scammers in the Bitcoin world, driving the interest rate way up.

And with that, I can give my bitcoins to hashking and he can lend them out, then pass on some of the interest to me. I can do that in FIAT too, but with it being meatspace and all, there's fewer scammers and a lower interest rate.

@Vladimir: I am simply frustrated that people quote my post, obviously intending to reply to it, and then show that they haven't even read it. I never claimed 3000% APR is sustainable. But so far, it's doing better for me than satoshidice.

[MoneyIsDebt]

The bitcoin economy as a whole (the businesses, the ppl receiving salaries in bitcoin, consumers, producers etc) is so different from the "real world" that making any comparison to it at this stage makes little sense.
Also, it's so small, that it could easily grow 1% or more weekly. And if it doesn't yet, there's plenty of speculation that it will.

[ripper234]

My response: http://ripper234.com/p/why-i-trust-patrick-harnett/

It is my belief that in a market that offers this wide range of investments, the safest ones are ... safe.
Patrick is as safe as I've been able to find.

[Clipse]

Again,
"I know people who get that with their mining hardware. And I see Bitcoin loans every day which are done at  10% MPR. 10% MPR is too good to be true in FIAT. FIAT! FIAT FIAT FIAT. But it happens, legitimately, in BITCOIN. BITCOIN."

Which leads to the question -- why is it so much more expensive to borrow Bitcoins than it is to borrow dollars? And I think the answer is that you're competing with more scammers in the Bitcoin world, driving the interest rate way up.

In the global scene of ponzi schemes there has been more wealth lost in the fiat regulated industry over the last 12months than there has been in bitcoin supposed ponzi schemes over the same time.

There has been more corrupt banking scandals and regular client money lost in the fiat world compared to the global fiat currency base than in the bitcoin world in comparison to the bitcoin global market cap.

We dont need to assume anymore that FIAT is driven by a huge ponzi scheme with extra cutting off the top by those in charge, note: LIBOR scandal, so since we have facts about the FIAT then we can conclude the FIAT ponzi have underpaid interest for years to those at the bottom.

The only thing I still know thats true about any running market from trading currencies to trading stocks is that they are all perpetual ponzi's where there is allways more losers than winners and that eventually someone will be holding everything if enough time passes.

Which of these should be used as an example when discussing the cause and effect of ponzi's ? Bitcoin or FIAT ?

Personally I think bitcoin interest rates are higher simply because of the excess risk involved lending bitcoins, same isnt true for FIAT which begs the question why do you pay any interest rates for a reversable/mass reprintable currency ?

[JoelKatz]

In the global scene of ponzi schemes there has been more wealth lost in the fiat regulated industry over the last 12months than there has been in bitcoin supposed ponzi schemes over the same time.

This is pure misdirection.

[Clipse]

In the global scene of ponzi schemes there has been more wealth lost in the fiat regulated industry over the last 12months than there has been in bitcoin supposed ponzi schemes over the same time.

This is pure misdirection.

Misdirection? Its facts that I am trying to make you aware of.

If you disagree with those facts then do state what new information you have because apparently thats not being shared with the world.

I didnt try to claim I know what BTCST is or that it is/isnt a ponzi scheme, I am just being more objective than most of the people in here.

Dont bother to comment if you dont feel like adding anything meaningfull to the discussion other than pure speculation.

[triox]

--it would indicate that Bitcoins were so likely to crash that lenders insist upon ridiculous rates and borrowers willingly pay them.

Alternatively, lenders are expecting Bitcoin to skyrocket and borrowers are competing against that expectation. Now, why would that expectation be reflected in the interest rate and not the BTC/USD ratio I don't know.

[JoelKatz]

Misdirection? Its facts that I am trying to make you aware of.

Facts that have nothing to do with anything. If we're talking about whether someone ran a red light, pointing out that there are murderers and rapists is pure misdirection.

If you disagree with those facts then do state what new information you have because apparently thats not being shared with the world.

I don't "disagree" with them, but that doesn't matter, since they're irrelevant misdirection.

[Mageant]

Interesting theory, somehow BITCOIN as opposed to FIAT increases typical sustainable ROI by thousands percent. This is a  miracle! Why 1 BTC does not worth 1000$ yet if that is true.

Because not everybody has found out yet.
Also, the risk or uncertainty is high.
Many people can't believe it.

Eventually, when more people find out about this and the yields still remain high, the price might substantially increase because of this.
That's what I am suggesting in the title of this thread.

[Mageant]

Again,
"I know people who get that with their mining hardware. And I see Bitcoin loans every day which are done at  10% MPR. 10% MPR is too good to be true in FIAT. FIAT! FIAT FIAT FIAT. But it happens, legitimately, in BITCOIN. BITCOIN."

Which leads to the question -- why is it so much more expensive to borrow Bitcoins than it is to borrow dollars? And I think the answer is that you're competing with more scammers in the Bitcoin world, driving the interest rate way up.

Even so, the legitimate businesses must still be generating enough profits to pay the high interest rates. Otherwise they would indeed just get their funding in fiat.

So the conclusion remains that the special properties of Bitcoin allow for high interest rates.

[Vladimir]

Bitcoin is special but not THAT special.  Mageant, you are not convincing anyone here but yourself.

[aq]

Bitcoin is special but not THAT special.  Mageant, you are not convincing anyone here but yourself.

Actually it is that special

[Frankie]

Again,
"I know people who get that with their mining hardware. And I see Bitcoin loans every day which are done at  10% MPR. 10% MPR is too good to be true in FIAT. FIAT! FIAT FIAT FIAT. But it happens, legitimately, in BITCOIN. BITCOIN."

Which leads to the question -- why is it so much more expensive to borrow Bitcoins than it is to borrow dollars? And I think the answer is that you're competing with more scammers in the Bitcoin world, driving the interest rate way up.

Even so, the legitimate businesses must still be generating enough profits to pay the high interest rates. Otherwise they would indeed just get their funding in fiat.

So the conclusion remains that the special properties of Bitcoin allow for high interest rates.

No, they would be getting their money in fiat whether their profits are enormous or modest because the borrowing costs are much lower there. Why do you believe that bitcoin entrepreneurs have figured out profit-making techniques "not everybody has found out yet," but these same people are too stupid to realize they can get a USD cash advance for 29% APR--which is effectively a free loan if they actually believe bitcoin will go up by at least 30% per year.

The rate of return depends on people who are fabulously clever when it comes to making money, but beyond imbecilic when it comes to borrowing money.  Why does that makes sense to you?

[CoinCidental]

Bitcoin is special but not THAT special.  Mageant, you are not convincing anyone here but yourself.

Actually it is that special

its not 3400% pa special .......

sell your house for a million dollars ........
sleep in a tent for 12 months .......
invest it for just 1 year .......

cash out and walk away with 34 million dollars ?

[aq]

its not 3400% pa special .......

See, 7% a week is not necessary the same as 3400% pa.
Lets say someone exchanges all those coins to fiat and back each week. Lets assume that he makes 10% from it and pays his lenders 7%. So a lender would "only" get 7% * 52weeks = 364%pa. If at the same time the business grows, it could look like as one could simply compound, while in fact this is not the case.