Does Bitcoin really need an ATM?

[FreeMoney]

Thanks for your replies. I find your comments very insightful, but I fear I have accidentally changed the original subject (the usefulness of building an ATM Bitcoin dispenser).

So, I agree with you that there are inconvenients (more or less frequent, depending on the person, I accept that) with traditional banking that Bitcoin aims to address (and I really hope it will). But I am still not sure of the answer to the following question:

- Will people use a Bitcoin ATM, other than tech-savvy people? (if placed properly?)

- What will be the reasons that will lead a 'common' person, not particularly tech-savvy (the so called "average Joe") to change some EUR into BTC, _today_? Maybe publish a list of sites accepting Bitcoin in the ATM? And what would be the different than paying with euros in another site?

- What would be the slogan for those people, and not empthy retoric as "Freedom for the people", or "Forget the banks" etc. Something like "Your money more secure", "Easier to use money", "More powerful money", "More stable money", but true (at this time).

- I think that the deployment of ATMs should be complemented by some physical merchants (affiliates) accepting it in the neighbourhood. In this way people will see the sign "Accepting Bitcoins", and when find the ATM for the first time, they will wonder what's all this about. But, how to convince merchants to use Bitcoin, if they need to pay taxes in euros? Their reaction would be the same as if I proposed to accept Swiss francs (and I think they would probably accept Swiss francs rather than Bitcoins).

I don't have any trouble getting dollars for my coins, but I would prefer local cash via atm if it gave me close to the market rate.

Like nearly every bitcoin innovation ATMs will proliferate when there is enough demand to make it profitable for someone and then it will increase the usefulness and thus the demand for bitcoins which will push some other imagined bitcoin projects into existence.

I don't expect many regular merchants in physical stores to be accepting bitcoin any time soon. The ones who do are in it for what you call empty rhetoric. Which also happens to be why I work for bitcoin, transact with bitcoin and save in bitcoin.

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[ghgr]

Maybe the term ATM is a bit confusing. With ATM I refer to a machine where you can buy Bitcoins.

This is like saying "Airplanes. pffft, how many people actually need to cross the ocean?". Uh, a lot more once there is a reasonable way to do it.

I love this example! Or like saying "Hey, why would an Australian care about the information of a server in Europe?"

[casascius]

Who is going to protect it ? 24/7 ?
Who is going to fill it up ?
WHo is going to pay for all that ?

Most vending machines get attacked and vanadalised regularly ,and they only have
candy and drinks in them  

if there is going to be one that contains virtual and fiat money its going to be a target for theives ,this goes double if/when bitcoins are more valuable in the future

The machine above is a close cousin of this machine, which regularly does contain fiat money 24/7 and has been built with a commensurate level of security.  You might find it at your local carwash which is unattended 24/7.



Besides, it'd be more of a novelty.  Something to display at a tradeshow.  I don't really own any public-facing property where bolting it into a fixed location would make any sort of sense.

Also, such a thing probably wouldn't actually sell Casascius Coins.  Rather, it would make far more sense to sell redemption "tokens" that they must redeem for BTC online, where they would receive the exchange rate at the time of redemption, rather than at the time of purchase.  This way, the machine doesn't need connectivity to the Internet, nor would it need any major magic to deal with oddities in the denomination (e.g. not being able to sell less than 1 BTC, a problem when BTC>$20, or requiring exact change)

Essentially they would be buying a "Casascius Mickey Mouse Dollar" which could be used to buy bitcoins at a later time.  The secret key could be much shorter (since it's merely a website redemption code not a full private key) and no holograms would be needed (dropping the price greatly, and also dropping the production difficulty, since I could bulk-laser-etch codes on coins in mass quantities and produce thousands per hour, singlehandedly).

All of these caveats would be admittedly less cool than vending real Casascius Coins out of a machine, but it would eliminate most of the costly complication, keep the markup as razor thin as possible, and importantly, would represent a setup where anyone could repeat it simply by ordering a machine, stocking it full of easily-acquired tokens, and then running some open source redemption software on their web server to enable redemptions.

All that said, each coin could still have a QR private key in addition to the redemption code, which would be funded upon redemption (as the way of delivering BTC to the customer), so they still end up with a real physical "bitcoin" in the end.

[niko]

I like this thread. OP makes some valid points, the kind of criticism often lacking in this forum. I can speak for myself - right now I do use btc regularly, for international money transfers, because it works better than other options. I don't need an ATM to do that. I also use BTC as store of value, even though I realize it's risky at this early stage. Again, no need for ATM.

Even if some day in some places BTC becomes widely adopted, most likely it will be adopted as an additional, not exclusive payment option. Again, no need for ATM/exchange machines.

[Dapper]

*bump*

This is a question for anyone who has actually used a bitcoin atm for btc TO cash conversion.   I see some listed on Coinradar but am curious as to how long it actually takes.   Many notes online say that some kind of ID verification before cash withdrawals can be made?    Would appreciate a first hand field report about how this actually works and how long it takes.   

While on that topic, does anyone know of any real world casinos (anywhere in the world, but preferably not in the US) that accept btc?   As in, the casino allows deposits to one's casino account IN bitcoin (allowing for as many confirmations as they require of course) and then allowing conversion to chips and or cash?   

[SonnetStar]

Does email need paper?

Wow, I was thinking how to best convey this and you did it so succinctly. Well done!

I agree physical manifestations of currency is old school, we barely need cash anymore what's the point of an atm

What would happen in future if people waanted to rob you, would they take ur bitcoin? You can say you don't remember ur private key

Street robbing might disappear but criminals would get more sophisticated and steal hardware wallets

[lecongnhan123]

But I don't think that people need to change their salary to Bitcoin (price fluctuations aside), exactly, again, as they don't need to buy gold with their salary.

It is not like that, paying salary by Bitcoin í just a way for the payers send money to employees, because they accept Bitcoin á their payment method so that they take Bitcoin, not because their bosses give Bitcoin so that they HAVE TO take Bitcoin ass their salaries

[Tyrantt]

I don't personally think that bitcoin ATMs are something needed. Maybe in the future when bitcoin is wider spread than it is today.

[crazycatwoman03]

I agree with the idea that bitcoin has its own ATM. It would surely be helpful to all of us. It will also be good if bitcoin will have its own card that we can use to withdraw bitcoin. In our country, there is a single bitcoin ATM machine that exist but it can only be used for buying and selling. I used Paypal card to withdraw converted bitcoin into cash and sometimes I encounter problem in withdrawing. Having an own ATM machine that enables us to withdraw bitcoin directly into converted cash with its own card and without waiting for days of processing will be very helpful.

I just wish that bitcoin will be used by other countries in the future.

[radjie]

As well as my country there are also cities that use bitcoin atm service because the city invites many foreign tourists to enjoy its natural beauty so with the Atm bitcoin in order to facilitate the foreign tourists to make various transactions either to rent lodging or to eat restaurant,  So with the bitcoin Atm service it's a lot easier for people who use bitcoin as a means of transaction anywhere.

[sportis]

This is an old post where bitcoin was not used by many people and its price was not high. Those days nobody could predict the road of btc and most of the bitcoiners where enthusiasts. Currently crypto ATM is a good way somebody who does not want to involve with exchange or afraid the face to face trading buy or sell his coins. The only bad thing, imo, is the high conversion rate.

[mustyoshi]

I've seen in many posts that you are interested in something like a Bitcoin ATM, and there has even been someone who has built a Bitcoin ATM somewhere in the USA.

I believe that reprogramming an existing vending machine (specially condoms or parking meters for their size), or even taking an old motherboard or android phone, and attach a coin acceptor and a thermal printer is not exactly something revolutionary (technically speaking). But it hasn't been done yet (well, it has, but a big and mostly proof-of-concept project, diametrically different from the low cost, widely deployed EUR/USD/GBP2BTC machine everyone want).

So, my question is why. And thinking about the question I found that Bitcoin is not what people need. It will, when it  succeedes (I'm optimistic about Bitcoin) be an extraordinary medium of storing wealth, something like gold today, with the additional advantages that everybody in this forum knows. But I don't think that people need to change their salary to Bitcoin (price fluctuations aside), exactly, again, as they don't need to buy gold with their salary. It's just not worth it. Bitcoin is not useful for buying bread. You can argue, of course, that if the baker accepted Bitcoin, people could use them to buy bread. But why would the baker accept Bitcoin, if he must pay his taxes in euros? It just adds more headache to his accountant.

Another reason I think that people will not rush into the ATM to buy BTC is the responsibility. Who would want to be considered the only responsible of protecting its own wealth? If you are stolen/threatened/forgetful that's it, game over. With a bank, despite all the inconveniences, hidden fees etc, if your credit card is stolen, you can chargeback. And the Bitcoin community does not support the idea of trusting a Bitcoin bank (which, given the past experience, I understand).

So, when I enthusiastically tell my friends about the wonders about Bitcoin, they ask me, skeptically, "how can I use them?" And in the answer I realize that they don't really need them, as well as they don't need gold coins.
People don't mind paying 2 euros more in an item of 60 euros because of the fees of Paypal, if they know that they can recover their money if something goes bad. Bitcoin has primitive escrow services, but are they below the Paypal fees? If yes, for how long, when the Bitcoin economy expands?

In conclusion, when I was looking for a catch phrase to write in the ATM describing why everybody needs Bitcoin, I realized that Bitcoins are useful for wealthy individuals and from a macroeconomic point of view, but not for the people that would casually buy them in an ATM.
 
I hope with this post to get contrary opinions about this fact, since I want to be convinced that a Bitcoin ATM would be useful, since I find the project of building one really, really cool :-)

I think that any currency needs ATM, but for bitcoin, it's really not feasible, the bitcoin's transaction speed is still very slow in order to carry out transactions in life.

[fitty]

Bitcoins i think doesnt need any ATM machines and banks.Bitcoins needs a decent exchange that is not regulated by the government,an exchange of currency which is tax free from the government.Bitcoins atm is just a bonus from bitcoin adoption and development

[soul-impact]

I think that is not really necessary, the only thing necessary and indispensable with bitcoin is the internet. Bitcoin is a digital product, and it only works when the world exists on the internet. ATM bitcoin is just a bitcoin utility, but it is not feasible because bitcoin transactions take too much time to validate.

[alani123]

I don't think that bitcoin ATMs are really convenient for advances users. The rates aren't all that great and the verification procedure in most are tedious. Exchanges are always going to be better IMO.  

[bitcoinstress]

Bitcoin is the currency why should need an ATM.

[alexsamudra]

Bitcoin does require an ATM in order to get the cash to get bitcoin easily.

[shine1123]

For me yes. Bitcoin ATM will make people interest about bitcoin because they never know about it before and also bitcoin ATM is really important when bitcoin become popular someday. So they can easily cash it out or even buy bitcoin from that bitcoin ATM. There are many benefit though for bitcoin if many place have bitcoin ATM.

[Wipro]

Bitcoin does require an ATM in order to get the cash to get bitcoin easily.

For cashless transactions we do not need to Bitcoin ATM but for emergency reason to use the bitcoin until it become legal money. We need ATM to make the transaction to take out the cash.
After 5 years we do not need to atm at all because that time we will bitcoin legal in use for all the countries.

[chickenado]

For me yes. Bitcoin ATM will make people interest about bitcoin because they never know about it before and also bitcoin ATM is really important when bitcoin become popular someday. So they can easily cash it out or even buy bitcoin from that bitcoin ATM. There are many benefit though for bitcoin if many place have bitcoin ATM.

If you want make people interest why not do some advertisement not ATM machine so you just build ATM to advertise bitcoin? Hmm I think it will cost many money than Television ads.

But I agree in Bitcoin ATM Machine so that when I need money you just go there and withdraw some fiat money.