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Author Topic: Interesting write up on M-Disc - the DVD that lasts forever  (Read 2955 times)
garyrowe
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July 31, 2012, 04:06:15 PM
 #1

I'm sure many of you already have a long term backup strategy in place for those precious private keys.

However, I thought I post here about the M-Disc from Millenniata for those who are unware that they can use a cheap DVD writer to store their data for 1000 years or more using the modern equivalent of carving the data into stone.

There is an interesting write up from PC Pro about it here: http://www.pcpro.co.uk/blogs/2012/07/19/m-disc-the-dvd-that-lasts-forever/

And the main site: http://millenniata.com/



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July 31, 2012, 04:48:08 PM
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Yes, i have heard about them but my question is, who will have a dvd reader in 20-30 years?
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July 31, 2012, 06:14:48 PM
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Yes, i have heard about them but my question is, who will have a dvd reader in 20-30 years?

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July 31, 2012, 06:24:04 PM
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Well, expecting to keep a digital medium around for decades is unwise (who has a 3.5" floppy reader nowadays?) but there's still value in the product; you can be assured your disc won't degrade before you get a chance to transfer it to the newest storage format that comes out just before your DVD reader bites the dust.

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July 31, 2012, 06:29:20 PM
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Well, expecting to keep a digital medium around for decades is unwise (who has a 3.5" floppy reader nowadays?) but there's still value in the product; you can be assured your disc won't degrade before you get a chance to transfer it to the newest storage format that comes out just before your DVD reader bites the dust.


Right, but if it is digital data it is unwise to focus on one certain copy, strong aspect of digital data is that you can keep as many copies as you want (of course crypted) and no matter which will survive you will have an access to everything. So instead of focusing on one very hardened copy, take your effort to get many (manageable amount) copies around world in different formats (magnetic, optical etc.) different geolocations.
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July 31, 2012, 06:32:17 PM
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What's the medium with the longest track record without obsolesce?

The only interface I can think of is the mini-trs connector of the sound card which has remained all the time. Should data be modulated into audio and stored this way to preserve easy access?

Those M-Discs would be pretty nifty for backing up the blockchain.
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July 31, 2012, 06:34:08 PM
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Could you use a DVD burner to "draw" a QR code by burning it with the right pattern?  What about write text?  

I would guess a semi-destructive process affecting only the center layer but leaving the polycarbonate coating would be pretty durable.

Is it possible to "burn through" with a DVD burner?

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July 31, 2012, 06:41:00 PM
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Well, expecting to keep a digital medium around for decades is unwise (who has a 3.5" floppy reader nowadays?) but there's still value in the product; you can be assured your disc won't degrade before you get a chance to transfer it to the newest storage format that comes out just before your DVD reader bites the dust.


Right, but if it is digital data it is unwise to focus on one certain copy, strong aspect of digital data is that you can keep as many copies as you want (of course crypted) and no matter which will survive you will have an access to everything. So instead of focusing on one very hardened copy, take your effort to get many (manageable amount) copies around world in different formats (magnetic, optical etc.) different geolocations.

Oh, of course. But along with those other media (and possibly cloud storage) I think adding something like this to the mix is a good idea. (So far, I'm relying on hard drives, flash drives, CD-Rs and paper for non-brainwallet critical backups; I'll definitely be looking into getting M-Discs as well.)


Those M-Discs would be pretty nifty for backing up the blockchain.

Now this is a decent idea. If I ever get ahold of an M-Disc writer I may add blockchain copies to my backups (I'd likely have extra space, so might as well.)

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July 31, 2012, 06:54:19 PM
 #9

Waiting on a 3-d printer to make hard-copy (quite literally) backups.

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July 31, 2012, 07:28:13 PM
 #10

Waiting on a 3-d printer to make hard-copy (quite literally) backups.

+1

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July 31, 2012, 07:33:19 PM
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It looks like it produces a disc in the same fashion as a disc manufacturer by a master disc for retail DVDs and CDS. No die, just pits and valleys.

The discs are about 3 bucks each but hey, I remember when DVD-R was the same amount. Give it time and the price will go down. I don't think this is ready for the PRIME TIME but if you are an early adopter type and obviously you are if you are using Bitcoin, I would say give it a shot.

I am not sure how relevant this would be to storing private keys but who knows.

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July 31, 2012, 07:49:26 PM
 #12

It looks like it produces a disc in the same fashion as a disc manufacturer by a master disc for retail DVDs and CDS. No die, just pits and valleys.

The discs are about 3 bucks each but hey, I remember when DVD-R was the same amount. Give it time and the price will go down. I don't think this is ready for the PRIME TIME but if you are an early adopter type and obviously you are if you are using Bitcoin, I would say give it a shot.

I am not sure how relevant this would be to storing private keys but who knows.

Well, I've given friends and loved ones wallets on CD-Rs. Even giving them two copies of each CD, I find myself nervous as to the chances that they'll be able to retrieve the wallets in the future. (Sure, I can tell them to make copies, keep the discs in separate locations, and all that, but you know how it sometimes goes giving such instructions to the less tech-savvy....)

With these, I think their private keys would have a much better chance of surviving.

Bitcoin is the ultimate freedom test. It tells you who is giving lip service and who genuinely believes in it.
...
...
In the future, books that summarize the history of money will have a line that says, “and then came bitcoin.” It is the economic singularity. And we are living in it now. - Ryan Dickherber
...
...
ATTENTION BFL MINING NEWBS: Just got your Jalapenos in? Wondering how to get the most value for the least hassle? Give BitMinter a try! It's a smaller pool with a fair & low-fee payment method, lots of statistical feedback, and it's easier than EasyMiner! (Yes, we want your hashing power, but seriously, it IS the easiest pool to use! Sign up in seconds to try it!)
...
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The idea that deflation causes hoarding (to any problematic degree) is a lie used to justify theft of value from your savings.
fivemileshigh
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July 31, 2012, 07:50:46 PM
 #13

What's the medium with the longest track record without obsolesce?


Film has had a pretty long run, and still in (limited) use today also lasts a long time and easy to read.

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July 31, 2012, 07:56:41 PM
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Yes, i have heard about them but my question is, who will have a dvd reader in 20-30 years?

In 20-30 years you'll be able to photograph the DVD on your hi-resolution digital camera, then use an app to decode the DVD pits from the photo.

Don't believe me? This guy can play vinyl LPs by putting them on a scanner, then running an app:
http://www.phys.huji.ac.il/~springer/DigitalNeedle/
How cool is that?

Anyway, even though DVD players will soon fade from mainstream use, there will still be some around for centuries. You can still play wax cylinders from the 1890s.
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July 31, 2012, 08:01:07 PM
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Could you use a DVD burner to "draw" a QR code by burning it with the right pattern?  What about write text? 

I would guess a semi-destructive process affecting only the center layer but leaving the polycarbonate coating would be pretty durable.

Is it possible to "burn through" with a DVD burner?
see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightscribe

It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.

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July 31, 2012, 08:09:32 PM
 #16

I am currently working on a BitBonds solution that uses paper and encrypted keys. Trying to figure out if i should store a shit ton on one private address or limit it to just ONE BTC per private address.

I have found out there is a limitation to the size of text you can store on a QR code. Somewhere around 2000 characters. So probably have BitBonds of 1, 5 and 10 using up to 10 private keys should be enough.

Don't mine me. I am paranoid as fuck! LOL. Somehow need to put a pass phrase HINT on the thing too but without giving out too much of a clue to help with a brute force. Perhaps a "As uncle tony" or some shit. But then if tony die's the bitcoin go along with it!

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July 31, 2012, 08:17:20 PM
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In 20-30 years you'll be able to photograph the DVD on your hi-resolution digital camera, then use an app to decode the DVD pits from the photo.

Unlikely. At first optics make it an issue, any conventional camera cannot maintain a decent enough focus across the entire surface. Currently you cannot even do that with LPs, you need a flatbed scanner to do that, and it doesn't even work particularly good.
It might be possible we might have nanoscale microlens cameras one day which might be able to do it. Then there is the issue of wavelength.
No I don't think that method would work very well.

Then again, for digital data it's best to just copy it to a new media in time.


Last but not least I would be surprised if bitcoin lasts that long.
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July 31, 2012, 08:19:50 PM
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In 20-30 years you'll be able to photograph the DVD on your hi-resolution digital camera, then use an app to decode the DVD pits from the photo.

Unlikely. At first optics make it an issue, any conventional camera cannot maintain a decent enough focus across the entire surface. Currently you cannot even do that with LPs, you need a flatbed scanner to do that, and it doesn't even work particularly good.
It might be possible we might have nanoscale microlens cameras one day which might be able to do it. Then there is the issue of wavelength.
No I don't think that method would work very well.

Then again, for digital data it's best to just copy it to a new media in time.


Last but not least I would be surprised if bitcoin lasts that long.

I wonder how many Forks we will go through? 5?

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July 31, 2012, 08:26:25 PM
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...
Last but not least I would be surprised if bitcoin lasts that long.

I wonder how many Forks we will go through? 5?

I don't think that if bitcoin is going to be replaced it would be a fork, (like those currently around in "Alternate Cryptocurrencies"). It would have to be something more innovative, innovative enough that rewriting the system from scratch would be required.
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July 31, 2012, 09:15:28 PM
 #20

Could you use a DVD burner to "draw" a QR code by burning it with the right pattern?  What about write text? 

I would guess a semi-destructive process affecting only the center layer but leaving the polycarbonate coating would be pretty durable.

Is it possible to "burn through" with a DVD burner?
see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightscribe

Very cool, but unfortunately, it looks like its not very durable.

Quote
Special storage precautions are necessary to prevent LightScribe discs from fading. HP's LightScribe website warns users to "keep discs away from extreme heat, humidity and direct sunlight", "store them in a cool, dark place", "use polypropylene disc sleeves rather than PVC sleeves", and also notes that "residual chemicals on your fingers could cause discoloration of the label image". Such chemicals include common hand lotions and hair care products.


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