Are Bitcoins Martial Law Proof?

[Portnoy]

How are my ideas monstrous?  

The stripping away of individual liberties in favor of greater government control of our lives... 

Is there anyone here besides you who feels this is a positive socio-economic evolution?

As a personal philosophy I don't believe in using liberty as an excuse to harm yourself or others, that is all.  It isn't a very controversial statement, suicide and assaulting others are generally not respected as a right.

But you would give governments the sole right, it seems, to determine what is right, as well as the right to exercise its powers in whatever way it sees fit to enforce its views.   

  I'm not sure what that has to do with the question of how resilient a currency is to martial law, however, do you disagree that gold and weapons and supplies have greater resistance than a currency dependent on government infrastructure?

I say let your precious statist overlords try to shut down the internet ( they do such a great job in the control of drugs and prostitution etc. right now.     ).
Meshnets and the like will arise so fast from that challenge it will make your head spin.

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[Rarity]

Governments act at the behest of the people, and the people want governments to protect them.  There is a reason nobody votes for libertarians and anarchists but instead vote for governments with socialists tendencies like those in the US and Europe when you give them the choice.  

I say let your precious statist overlords try to shut down the internet ( they do such a great job in the control of drugs and prostitution etc. right now.   Cheesy  ).
Meshnets and the like will arise so fast from that challenge it will make your head spin.

Until the state cuts off the power grid.  You are much better off hoarding gold and automatic weapons if you want to challenge the state.  Bitcoin is for people comfortable with the current state of affairs who maybe want to see the government do a bit more to regulate and control the market with the goal of protecting the rights of the people to a strong social safety net and fair distribution of wealth.

[Vod]

Your bitcoins ultimately rely on the government to maintain the electrical grid and internet infrastructure, this is one of the reasons pro-big government folks like myself like them so much.  When people use currency like gold or ammunition in the event of an emergency they can trade and barter with it freely, when we use bitcoins control of the market is in the hands of the government. 

ROFL - That is the most bang-on post I've read here today!  And it's funny too.  Thanks for making my evening!

Wish I could contribute more to this thread, but I'm only building a multi-family survival site in Northern Alberta.  

[bitlizard]

"No true anarchist is going to be running for public office. And no true anarchist is going to be voting either."

I image it would be very difficult to run for any public office on an anarchist platform. 

[novusordo]

"No true anarchist is going to be running for public office. And no true anarchist is going to be voting either."

I image it would be very difficult to run for any public office on an anarchist platform. 

"Elect me, and never elect anybody again!"

[notme]

I think the world government will mutually destroys themselves before I launch my first blockchain satellite.

I doubt the US or China are going anywhere in the next few centuries.  China is historically an incredibly stable civilization and America is backed up by the most incredibly powerful military the world has ever seen.  The two nations will keep the peace in the interest of their real goals,  world economic domination and control of information.  Replacing physical currencies with easily monitored and regulated electronic currencies like Bitcoin is merely a step in that process.

China's military beats America's by about 700,0000 boots.  The US has slightly better hardware but it's still tough to say who is more powerful.

[Rarity]

I think the world government will mutually destroys themselves before I launch my first blockchain satellite.

I doubt the US or China are going anywhere in the next few centuries.  China is historically an incredibly stable civilization and America is backed up by the most incredibly powerful military the world has ever seen.  The two nations will keep the peace in the interest of their real goals,  world economic domination and control of information.  Replacing physical currencies with easily monitored and regulated electronic currencies like Bitcoin is merely a step in that process.

China's military beats America's by about 700,0000 boots.  The US has slightly better hardware but it's still tough to say who is more powerful.

They can't get those boots to the United States, and drones > boots, but I was not suggesting war between these two nations.  They are economic partners who are going to continue to work together to protect their mutual interests.

[notme]

I think the world government will mutually destroys themselves before I launch my first blockchain satellite.

I doubt the US or China are going anywhere in the next few centuries.  China is historically an incredibly stable civilization and America is backed up by the most incredibly powerful military the world has ever seen.  The two nations will keep the peace in the interest of their real goals,  world economic domination and control of information.  Replacing physical currencies with easily monitored and regulated electronic currencies like Bitcoin is merely a step in that process.

China's military beats America's by about 700,0000 boots.  The US has slightly better hardware but it's still tough to say who is more powerful.

They can't get those boots to the United States, and drones > boots, but I was not suggesting war between these two nations.  They are economic partners who are going to continue to work together to protect their mutual interests.

I'm just arguing against your statement that "America is backed up by the most incredibly powerful military the world has ever seen".  In some situations, China would be superior, in some America would be.  I doubt there will be a head to head conflict though.

[Rarity]

I think the world government will mutually destroys themselves before I launch my first blockchain satellite.

I doubt the US or China are going anywhere in the next few centuries.  China is historically an incredibly stable civilization and America is backed up by the most incredibly powerful military the world has ever seen.  The two nations will keep the peace in the interest of their real goals,  world economic domination and control of information.  Replacing physical currencies with easily monitored and regulated electronic currencies like Bitcoin is merely a step in that process.

China's military beats America's by about 700,0000 boots.  The US has slightly better hardware but it's still tough to say who is more powerful.

They can't get those boots to the United States, and drones > boots, but I was not suggesting war between these two nations.  They are economic partners who are going to continue to work together to protect their mutual interests.

I'm just arguing against your statement that "America is backed up by the most incredibly powerful military the world has ever seen".  In some situations, China would be superior, in some America would be.  I doubt there will be a head to head conflict though.

Outside of the context of trying to invade China, there is no context in which the American military is not vastly more powerful.  You need to understand how huge the disparity in investment in military efforts is:



Aircraft carriers are just an example, but one of the best since they are direct representations of ability to project power which is at the heart of any debate of military power that isn't about an invasion of either the US or China.   The disproportion applies to all military investment and American allies are the next biggest spenders.

[notme]

I don't believe your graphic since China isn't even on it.

[Rarity]

I don't believe your graphic since China isn't even on it.

It is a bit out of date.

They do have one cold war diesel model they bought half built off the Russians via a tourist company undergoing sea trials.  It's way inferior to decades old battle proven American nuclear carrier designs.:  

The 67,500 ton ex-Soviet aircraft carrier Varyag (Admiral Kuznetsov class), which was only 70% completed and floating in Ukraine, was purchased through a private Macau tourist venture in 1998. Following her troublesome tow to Dalian shipyard, the carrier has undergone a long refit. Varyag had been stripped of any military equipment as well as her propulsion systems prior to being put up for sale. News reports state that she is being fitted out to enter operational status.[2][12]

On 10 August 2011, it was announced that the refurbishment of Varyag was complete, and that it was undergoing sea trials.[13][14]

On December 14, 2011, DigitalGlobe, and American Satellite imaging company announced that while scouring through pictures taken December 8th, they had discovered the retrofitted Varyag performing maneuvers, DigitalGlobe elaborated that their images capture the ship in the Yellow Sea where it performed for 5 days. [15]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_aircraft_carrier_programme

Other than that, they are still trying to put shit together.  Now look at the graphic for what the US and allies have going, and have had going for decades.

[notme]

Sinking ~28 (counting is hard when they don't fit one one screen and I'm intoxicated) carriers wouldn't be that hard.

China has almost no debt and ridiculous amounts of assets.  America has spent the next decade's worth of taxes already.

America would be fucked in any serious conflict (I'm an American and I'm sad).

Our only hope is if we can get other people to fight and sell weapons to both sides like the beginning of WWII.

[Rarity]

Sinking ~28 (counting is hard when they don't fit one one screen and I'm intoxicated) carriers wouldn't be that hard.

Explain how.

Added difficulty:  You will be nuked into the stone age if you try this.
Extra Added Difficulty:  Your economy is dependent on the country you are fighting militarily for no reason.

[notme]

Sinking ~28 (counting is hard when they don't fit one one screen and I'm intoxicated) carriers wouldn't be that hard.

Explain how.

Added difficulty:  You will be nuked into the stone age if you try this.
Extra Added Difficulty:  Your economy is dependent on the country you are fighting militarily for no reason.

Surprise attack, torpedoes.  Ever heard of Pearl Harbor?

Added Difficulty Counter: You will be counter nuked.
Extra Added Difficulty Counter: Good point, but if they're fighting, there's a reason.  China will be much better off with an economic split than America will be.  They have production capacity, and ours is covered in cobwebs.

[Rarity]

Sinking ~28 (counting is hard when they don't fit one one screen and I'm intoxicated) carriers wouldn't be that hard.

Explain how.

Added difficulty:  You will be nuked into the stone age if you try this.
Extra Added Difficulty:  Your economy is dependent on the country you are fighting militarily for no reason.

Surprise attack, torpedoes.  Ever heard of Pearl Harbor?

Yes, I've also heard of the Battle of Thermopylae, but I'm not sure what it has to do with the proposed scenario of defeating nuclear carrier battle groups scattered around the entire globe, moving constantly at sea, surrounded by the best anti-air technology in the world, and protected by the best satellite and radar intelligence in the world, while on constant alert.  

Added Difficulty Counter: You will be counter nuked.

That isn't a difficulty for me as I'm not jacking off to some imaginary Tom Clancy war that will never happen, mainly because of the MAD.  

Extra Added Difficulty Counter: Good point, but if they're fighting, there's a reason.  China will be much better off with an economic split than America will be.  They have production capacity, and ours is covered in cobwebs.

Actually America manufactures more than they do by more than 40%.

http://www.dallasnews.com/business/headlines/20110130-u.s.-still-no.-1-manufacturing-country-despite-cutbacks-at-factories.ece

You really know nothing about the world, the economy, or the military, do you?

[notme]

Sinking ~28 (counting is hard when they don't fit one one screen and I'm intoxicated) carriers wouldn't be that hard.

Explain how.

Added difficulty:  You will be nuked into the stone age if you try this.
Extra Added Difficulty:  Your economy is dependent on the country you are fighting militarily for no reason.

Surprise attack, torpedoes.  Ever heard of Pearl Harbor?

Yes, I've also heard of the Battle of Thermopylae, but I'm not sure what it has to do with the proposed scenario of defeating nuclear carrier battle groups scattered around the entire globe and surrounded by the best anti-air technology in the world on constant alert.  

China has a lot of subs we know about and even more we don't know about.  Stealth sub technology is very hard to detect.

Added Difficulty Counter: You will be counter nuked.

That isn't a difficulty for me as I'm not jacking off to some imaginary Tom Clancy war that will never happen, mainly because of the MAD.  

Which is why we won't use nukes either.  Your point is still neutralized.

Extra Added Difficulty Counter: Good point, but if they're fighting, there's a reason.  China will be much better off with an economic split than America will be.  They have production capacity, and ours is covered in cobwebs.

Actually America manufactures more than they do by more than 40%.

http://www.dallasnews.com/business/headlines/20110130-u.s.-still-no.-1-manufacturing-country-despite-cutbacks-at-factories.ece

Right, because a newspaper with unsourced material is totally reliable .  Show me this supposed UN study and you may have some credibility, but we really only know what China tells us about China.  In the mean time, China will continue to grow it's population much faster than we possibly could and training these people to fight fiercely.  A few well placed EMP devices and all our drones and fancy hardware is just a bunch of scrap metal.  Even if we retaliate in kind China has the boots and the guns.

You really know nothing about the world, the economy, or the military, do you?

Well aren't you a cocky asshole?

I really can't think of a situation where the US and China would go head to head, but if it happens, the results won't be nearly as cut and dry as you claim.

[Rarity]

China has a lot of subs we know about and even more we don't know about.  Stealth sub technology is very hard to detect.

And the US has more and better subs and more and better anti-sub technology.  Explain how you defeat this, around the entire globe where the US and it's allies are dominant literally everywhere.  Life is not a movie.  

Which is why we won't use nukes either.  Your point is still neutralized.

No, the point that neither side will risk nuclear war is a point against either side ever going to war which is the point I am trying to drill into your vacant head.  Doing so would be inviting the nuclear war neither side will invite.  

Right, because a newspaper with unsourced material is totally reliable Roll Eyes.  

*head-desk*

Just take a quick look at the numbers. According to United Nations data, the U.S. is still the largest manufacturing country in the world. In 2009, American manufacturing output (in real terms) was nearly $2.2 trillion. That’s about 45% larger than China’s, at just under $1.5 trillion.

Read more: http://business.time.com/2011/03/10/can-china-compete-with-american-manufacturing/#ixzz22My09d2Q

I really can't think of a situation where the US and China would go head to head, but if it happens, the results won't be nearly as cut and dry as you claim.

You are the biggest retard on these forums by a wide margin, and that is quite an accomplishment.  You are the dumbass trying to imagine a war between the US and China, this is my first reply to your idiocy:

They can't get those boots to the United States, and drones > boots, but I was not suggesting war between these two nations.  They are economic partners who are going to continue to work together to protect their mutual interests.

[niko]

How are my ideas monstrous?  

The stripping away of individual liberties in favor of greater government control of our lives... 

Is there anyone here besides you who feels this is a positive socio-economic evolution?

Here. Not because I favor the government over personal freedoms, but because I favor the government over private, cancerous corporations that definitely don't give a rat's ass about my freedoms or anything other than their profits. Most of criticism I can aim towards governments nowadays is simply a consequence of corporate influence over governments.

Back to the topic: yes, I think Bitcoin is reasonably martial-law proof. Perhaps wouldn't be able to spend them easily, but they are extremely hard to destroy or take away.

[adamstgBit]

does martial-law imply shuting down the internet and the grid?

wtf would people do?

no one could live in the big cites, theirs no power! this is pure madness. no one is every going to shutdown the grid for any reason, their isn't any profit in it.

[notme]

China has a lot of subs we know about and even more we don't know about.  Stealth sub technology is very hard to detect.

And we have more and better subs and more and better anti-sub technology.  Explain how you defeat this, around the entire globe where the US and it's allies are dominant literally everywhere.  Life is not a movie. 

You defeat it by having assets instead of debt.  In lieu of assets, you have population which can be harnessed to produce goods.  China wins on both fronts.  America has bred many enemies the past few decades.

Which is why we won't use nukes either.  Your point is still neutralized.

No, the point that neither side will risk nuclear war is a point against either side ever going to war which is the point I am trying to drill into your vacant head.  Doing so would be inviting the nuclear war neither side will invite. 

I already agreed that war between the two is unlikely.  Multiple times in fact.  Learn to read instead of spewing insults.

Right, because a newspaper with unsourced material is totally reliable Roll Eyes. 

*head-desk*

Just take a quick look at the numbers. According to United Nations data, the U.S. is still the largest manufacturing country in the world. In 2009, American manufacturing output (in real terms) was nearly $2.2 trillion. That’s about 45% larger than China’s, at just under $1.5 trillion.

Read more: http://business.time.com/2011/03/10/can-china-compete-with-american-manufacturing/#ixzz22My09d2Q

Sure... if you ignore hong kong.  From http://unstats.un.org/unsd/snaama/dnltransfer.asp?fID=1 (the first data link on the UN page linked to by the article) if you add yuan and hkd denominated manufacturing, adjusting for each currency's current rate, in 2010 China's manufacturing sector produced $2,046,522,254,485 or $2.046 trillion.  This is compared to the $1,855,967,100,172 or $1.855 trillion listed for the good old USA.