Are Bitcoins Martial Law Proof?

[Mike Jones]

If the government shuts down a good portion of internet service throughout the US, will my Bitcoins still be waiting for me when things come back online?

[1715461795]

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[1715461795]

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[1715461795]

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[runlinux]

yup.

[notme]

There are thousands of copies of the blockchain in other countries.

[goodlord666]

Are you anticipating martial law?

[Mike Jones]

Are you anticipating martial law?

http://theintelhub.com/2012/08/01/government-silently-positions-for-martial-law-as-financial-collapse-arrives-in-america/

[Gabi]

Europe here, i have the full blockchain, don't worry 

[adamstgBit]

Are you anticipating martial law?

http://theintelhub.com/2012/08/01/government-silently-positions-for-martial-law-as-financial-collapse-arrives-in-america/

Just move to Canada.

[Mike Jones]

Europe here, i have the full blockchain, don't worry 

Thank you. 

[AndrewBUD]

oh great some igloo jokes


I can throw a stone across a river and hit an american

[bbit]

better question is will my paper bill bitcoins still be worth something if the blockchain is never fired back up ?  would you still be willing to trade with me ? 

[wareen]

better question is will my paper bill bitcoins still be worth something if the blockchain is never fired back up ?  would you still be willing to trade with me ?  

What do you mean "fired back up" - a prolonged global shutdown of the Internet is extremely unlikely so the blockchain will most certainly keep growing and everybody with at least some form of Internet access would surely be willing to trade with you for your paper Bitcoins.

Oh and by the way: I've got some hashing power running completely on solar power here and a number of big antennas for long-range WiFi, so I'll do my best to help Bitcoin make it through the zombie apocalypse

[jimbobway]

Right now there are around 15000 - 17000 complete copies of the blockchain distributed around the world. Good luck in stopping that.

http://bitcoinstatus.rowit.co.uk/

I encourage bitcoin users to use the Satoshi client or any other client that downloads the full blockchain so it is stored on your comptuer.  

EDIT: Looks like we have approx 10000+ copies of the blockchain.  See below.

[punningclan]

better question is will my paper bill bitcoins still be worth something if the blockchain is never fired back up ?  would you still be willing to trade with me ? 

What do you mean "fired back up" - a prolonged global shutdown of the Internet is extremely unlikely so the blockchain will most certainly keep growing and everybody with at least some form of Internet access would surely be willing to trade with you for your paper Bitcoins.

Oh and by the way: I've got quite some hashing power running completely on solar power here and a number of big antennas for long-range WiFi, so I'll do my best to help Bitcoin make it through the zombie apocalypse

+1

I'll lend support to that!

[thebaron]

I would hope that people would set up a huge "pirate" high-wattage WiFi networks with directional antennas to connect locales.

[jimbobway]

I would hope that people would set up a huge "pirate" high-wattage WiFi networks with directional antennas to connect locales.

Supposedly, BitSyncom is working on this.  Hopefully, it is not vaporware.

[Portnoy]

I would hope that people would set up a huge "pirate" high-wattage WiFi networks with directional antennas to connect locales.

Supposedly, BitSyncom is working on this.  Hopefully, it is not vaporware.

to save someone some time searching
http://bitsyn.com/main/2012/07/the-bitsyncom-initiative

[unclemantis]

[bg002h]

Are you anticipating martial law?

http://theintelhub.com/2012/08/01/government-silently-positions-for-martial-law-as-financial-collapse-arrives-in-america/

That's a little gloomy...I hear Switzerland is nice this time of year...

[Rarity]

Your bitcoins ultimately rely on the government to maintain the electrical grid and internet infrastructure, this is one of the reasons pro-big government folks like myself like them so much.  When people use currency like gold or ammunition in the event of an emergency they can trade and barter with it freely, when we use bitcoins control of the market is in the hands of the government. 

[Mike Jones]

Your bitcoins ultimately rely on the government to maintain the electrical grid and internet infrastructure, this is one of the reasons pro-big government folks like myself like them so much.  When people use currency like gold or ammunition in the event of an emergency they can trade and barter with it freely, when we use bitcoins control of the market is in the hands of the government.  

The WWW internet infrastructure was inherited from the failed investments of interactive TV. The government had nothing to do with that.

I would know. I lost a lot of money.

[Rarity]

Your bitcoins ultimately rely on the government to maintain the electrical grid and internet infrastructure, this is one of the reasons pro-big government folks like myself like them so much.  When people use currency like gold or ammunition in the event of an emergency they can trade and barter with it freely, when we use bitcoins control of the market is in the hands of the government.  

The WWW internet infrastructure was inherited from the failed investments of interactive TV. The government had nothing to do with that.

I would know. I lost a lot of money.

You know nothing about the internet.  It was a government project through and through.  

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2012/07/wsj-mangles-history-to-argue-government-didnt-launch-the-internet/

Regardless of where it was inherited from, however, it is undeniable government control is possible at this point.  Connections were shut down during the Arab Spring, for example.  You have to work around that to get your message out.  A currency that relies on internet will not work in that situation as well as gold or ammunition will.

[Mike Jones]

Your bitcoins ultimately rely on the government to maintain the electrical grid and internet infrastructure, this is one of the reasons pro-big government folks like myself like them so much.  When people use currency like gold or ammunition in the event of an emergency they can trade and barter with it freely, when we use bitcoins control of the market is in the hands of the government.  

The WWW internet infrastructure was inherited from the failed investments of interactive TV. The government had nothing to do with that.

I would know. I lost a lot of money.

You know nothing about the internet, Atlas.  It was a government project through and through.  

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2012/07/wsj-mangles-history-to-argue-government-didnt-launch-the-internet/

Regardless of where it was inherited from, however, it is undeniable government control is possible at this point.  Connections were shut down during the Arab Spring, for example.  You have to work around that to get your message out.  A currency that relies on internet will not work in that situation as well as gold or ammunition will.

Ponyboy, I have been using the internet since you were in diapers. Now, if your momma and papa can't help pay for your college and you need Uncle Sam to help you, I can understand the government might be your friend. It has never been mine.

[Rarity]

Your bitcoins ultimately rely on the government to maintain the electrical grid and internet infrastructure, this is one of the reasons pro-big government folks like myself like them so much.  When people use currency like gold or ammunition in the event of an emergency they can trade and barter with it freely, when we use bitcoins control of the market is in the hands of the government.  

The WWW internet infrastructure was inherited from the failed investments of interactive TV. The government had nothing to do with that.

I would know. I lost a lot of money.

You know nothing about the internet, Atlas.  It was a government project through and through. 

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2012/07/wsj-mangles-history-to-argue-government-didnt-launch-the-internet/

Regardless of where it was inherited from, however, it is undeniable government control is possible at this point.  Connections were shut down during the Arab Spring, for example.  You have to work around that to get your message out.  A currency that relies on internet will not work in that situation as well as gold or ammunition will.

Ponyboy, I have been using the internet since you were in diapers. Now, if you're momma and papa can't help pay for your college and you need Uncle Sam to help you, I can understand the government might be your friend. It has never been mine.

Other than when it gave you the Internet I guess, which Bitcoins entirely rely upon to continue to exist.

[rjk]

Connections were shut down during the Arab Spring, for example.

Because private companies were forced to comply. The government's direct control is questionable, although their influence is undeniable, as is their monitoring.

[Rarity]

^ Nothing!

Connections were shut down during the Arab Spring, for example.

Because private companies were forced to comply. The government's direct control is questionable, although their influence is undeniable, as is their monitoring.

Yes, because it is easy for the government to force them to comply.  If they refuse, it's not that hard for an army to shut down a data center.  Cut the power, cut the cables.  This is why people interested in government control support electronic currency as opposed to physical items like gold, guns, and survival supplies.

[01BTC10]

The internet will never die! Except with a huge solar flare  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfz7onsXLO8
http://opensat.cc

Yeah I know I live in a pink unicorn world...

[Rarity]

Anti-satellite weapons (ASAT) are designed to incapacitate or destroy satellites for strategic military purposes. Currently, only the United States, the former Soviet Union, and the People's Republic of China are known to have developed these weapons.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-satellite_weapon

If the major governments of the world want to destroy your satellite, it won't be a problem.

[01BTC10]

I think the world government will mutually destroys themselves before I launch my first blockchain satellite.

[Rarity]

I think the world government will mutually destroys themselves before I launch my first blockchain satellite.

I doubt the US or China are going anywhere in the next few centuries.  China is historically an incredibly stable civilization and America is backed up by the most incredibly powerful military the world has ever seen.  The two nations will keep the peace in the interest of their real goals,  world economic domination and control of information.  Replacing physical currencies with easily monitored and regulated electronic currencies like Bitcoin is merely a step in that process.

[01BTC10]

I think the world government will mutually destroys themselves before I launch my first blockchain satellite.

I doubt the US or China are going anywhere in the next few centuries.  China is historically an incredibly stable civilization and America is backed up by the most incredibly powerful military the world has ever seen.  The two nations will keep the peace in the interest of their real goals,  world economic domination and control of information.  Replacing physical currencies with easily monitored and regulated electronic currencies like Bitcoin is merely a step in that process.

So you're saying I will never launch my own satellite?

Thank's for bringing me back to reality. 

[Rarity]

Shh, no ones supposed to know googles secret plan for taking over the world yet.

Google is actually fighting against this sort of thing.  They have come into quite a bit of conflict with the US and Chinese governments, including hacking of Google servers by China as one consequence.  They have to learn that governments have the right to make their own rules for online interactions, and since they haven't yet Google actually has to direct Chinese users to a site in Hong Kong for their searches.  The Chinese government still manages to censor the results, as is their right and easily within their technical capability. 

[TraderTimm]

I think the world government will mutually destroys themselves before I launch my first blockchain satellite.

I doubt the US or China are going anywhere in the next few centuries.  China is historically an incredibly stable civilization and America is backed up by the most incredibly powerful military the world has ever seen.  The two nations will keep the peace in the interest of their real goals,  world economic domination and control of information.  Replacing physical currencies with easily monitored and regulated electronic currencies like Bitcoin is merely a step in that process.

Rome was really stable too... until it wasn't.

Empire-building ends as well - ask the UK, they used to have colonies everywhere.

I think it is funny that your thesis for bitcoin to be 'easily monitored and regulated' would require most of the North American internet to be cut off. Good luck convincing businesses, or even installing the infrastructure needed to do so.

So, are you just a troll? Or do you really believe these twisted theories?

[Rarity]

I think the world government will mutually destroys themselves before I launch my first blockchain satellite.

I doubt the US or China are going anywhere in the next few centuries.  China is historically an incredibly stable civilization and America is backed up by the most incredibly powerful military the world has ever seen.  The two nations will keep the peace in the interest of their real goals,  world economic domination and control of information.  Replacing physical currencies with easily monitored and regulated electronic currencies like Bitcoin is merely a step in that process.

Rome was really stable too... until it wasn't.

Empire-building ends as well - ask the UK, they used to have colonies everywhere.

I think it is funny that your thesis for bitcoin to be 'easily monitored and regulated' would require most of the North American internet to be cut off. Good luck convincing businesses, or even installing the infrastructure needed to do so.

So, are you just a troll? Or do you really believe these twisted theories?

Rome collapsed over centuries and survived for centuries more as the Byzantine Empire.  China isn't going anywhere soon, and will remain a power even if its form evolves or changes.

I think it is funny that your thesis for bitcoin to be 'easily monitored and regulated' would require most of the North American internet to be cut off. Good luck convincing businesses, or even installing the infrastructure needed to do so.

We are already discussing a period of martial law, if you don't think cutting off power and internet to restore order in such a situation is plausible you haven't really been paying attention to history (where much more drastic measures have been taken) or world events.

[TraderTimm]

We are already discussing a period of martial law, if you don't think cutting off power and internet to restore order in such a situation is plausible you haven't really been paying attention to history (where much more drastic measures have been taken) or world events.

Cutting off power restores order? Ah, so *that* is what they were doing over in India a few days ago, restoring ORDER.

If the US uses martial law, you've got bigger problems, like leaving the country. I think the cached block-chain in other spots in the world will allow bitcoin to survive just fine, thanks.

But don't listen to me, keep stirring that pot...

[Rarity]

We are already discussing a period of martial law, if you don't think cutting off power and internet to restore order in such a situation is plausible you haven't really been paying attention to history (where much more drastic measures have been taken) or world events.

Cutting off power restores order? Ah, so *that* is what they were doing over in India a few days ago, restoring ORDER.

If the US uses martial law, you've got bigger problems, like leaving the country. I think the cached block-chain in other spots in the world will allow bitcoin to survive just fine, thanks.

But don't listen to me, keep stirring that pot...

A power outage is not the same thing as martial law.  I mean, come on dude, marching riot police down the street in the middle of the day for no reason would cause disorder too.  In the case of a RIOT however, it restores order.  Apply some critical thinking here please.

[Portnoy]

So, are you just a troll? Or do you really believe these twisted theories?

These things are not necessarily mutually exclusive.  Rarity is a well known troll on these forums it seems.
Whether s/he believes in the things s/he says is debatable...  s/he could just be a very good satirist...
it is hard to believe anyone could believe in the things s/he claims to believe in.  How could anyone
who seems to feel that 'friendship is magic' really hold such monstrous ideas?   

[Rarity]

How are my ideas monstrous?  

v Any robust large scale mesh network is still dependent on the electrical infrastructure.  If you seriously want a currency that can survive martial law, it can't be electronic. 

[novusordo]

Bitcoin could thrive without the Internet as we know it today, actually.

It will just take a bit of work.

https://projectmeshnet.org/
https://wiki.projectmeshnet.org/Getting_started
http://cjdns.info/
http://hyperboria.net/
reddit.com/r/darknetplan

As for dealing with loss of an electrical infrastructure... I suppose it could be argued that the whole thing could be powered by decentralized solar and wind energy, but at that point... well, we've got other things to worry about than Bitcoin.

[Portnoy]

How are my ideas monstrous?  

The stripping away of individual liberties in favor of greater government control of our lives... 

Is there anyone here besides you who feels this is a positive socio-economic evolution?

[Rarity]

How are my ideas monstrous?  

The stripping away of individual liberties in favor of greater government control of our lives... 

Is there anyone here besides you who feels this is a positive socio-economic evolution?

As a personal philosophy I don't believe in using liberty as an excuse to harm yourself or others, that is all.  It isn't a very controversial statement, suicide and assaulting others are generally not respected as a right.  I'm not sure what that has to do with the question of how resilient a currency is to martial law, however, do you disagree that gold and weapons and supplies have greater resistance than a currency dependent on government infrastructure?

[Portnoy]

How are my ideas monstrous?  

The stripping away of individual liberties in favor of greater government control of our lives... 

Is there anyone here besides you who feels this is a positive socio-economic evolution?

As a personal philosophy I don't believe in using liberty as an excuse to harm yourself or others, that is all.  It isn't a very controversial statement, suicide and assaulting others are generally not respected as a right.

But you would give governments the sole right, it seems, to determine what is right, as well as the right to exercise its powers in whatever way it sees fit to enforce its views.   

  I'm not sure what that has to do with the question of how resilient a currency is to martial law, however, do you disagree that gold and weapons and supplies have greater resistance than a currency dependent on government infrastructure?

I say let your precious statist overlords try to shut down the internet ( they do such a great job in the control of drugs and prostitution etc. right now.     ).
Meshnets and the like will arise so fast from that challenge it will make your head spin.

[Rarity]

Governments act at the behest of the people, and the people want governments to protect them.  There is a reason nobody votes for libertarians and anarchists but instead vote for governments with socialists tendencies like those in the US and Europe when you give them the choice.  

I say let your precious statist overlords try to shut down the internet ( they do such a great job in the control of drugs and prostitution etc. right now.   Cheesy  ).
Meshnets and the like will arise so fast from that challenge it will make your head spin.

Until the state cuts off the power grid.  You are much better off hoarding gold and automatic weapons if you want to challenge the state.  Bitcoin is for people comfortable with the current state of affairs who maybe want to see the government do a bit more to regulate and control the market with the goal of protecting the rights of the people to a strong social safety net and fair distribution of wealth.

[Vod]

Your bitcoins ultimately rely on the government to maintain the electrical grid and internet infrastructure, this is one of the reasons pro-big government folks like myself like them so much.  When people use currency like gold or ammunition in the event of an emergency they can trade and barter with it freely, when we use bitcoins control of the market is in the hands of the government. 

ROFL - That is the most bang-on post I've read here today!  And it's funny too.  Thanks for making my evening!

Wish I could contribute more to this thread, but I'm only building a multi-family survival site in Northern Alberta.  

[bitlizard]

"No true anarchist is going to be running for public office. And no true anarchist is going to be voting either."

I image it would be very difficult to run for any public office on an anarchist platform. 

[novusordo]

"No true anarchist is going to be running for public office. And no true anarchist is going to be voting either."

I image it would be very difficult to run for any public office on an anarchist platform. 

"Elect me, and never elect anybody again!"

[notme]

I think the world government will mutually destroys themselves before I launch my first blockchain satellite.

I doubt the US or China are going anywhere in the next few centuries.  China is historically an incredibly stable civilization and America is backed up by the most incredibly powerful military the world has ever seen.  The two nations will keep the peace in the interest of their real goals,  world economic domination and control of information.  Replacing physical currencies with easily monitored and regulated electronic currencies like Bitcoin is merely a step in that process.

China's military beats America's by about 700,0000 boots.  The US has slightly better hardware but it's still tough to say who is more powerful.

[Rarity]

I think the world government will mutually destroys themselves before I launch my first blockchain satellite.

I doubt the US or China are going anywhere in the next few centuries.  China is historically an incredibly stable civilization and America is backed up by the most incredibly powerful military the world has ever seen.  The two nations will keep the peace in the interest of their real goals,  world economic domination and control of information.  Replacing physical currencies with easily monitored and regulated electronic currencies like Bitcoin is merely a step in that process.

China's military beats America's by about 700,0000 boots.  The US has slightly better hardware but it's still tough to say who is more powerful.

They can't get those boots to the United States, and drones > boots, but I was not suggesting war between these two nations.  They are economic partners who are going to continue to work together to protect their mutual interests.

[notme]

I think the world government will mutually destroys themselves before I launch my first blockchain satellite.

I doubt the US or China are going anywhere in the next few centuries.  China is historically an incredibly stable civilization and America is backed up by the most incredibly powerful military the world has ever seen.  The two nations will keep the peace in the interest of their real goals,  world economic domination and control of information.  Replacing physical currencies with easily monitored and regulated electronic currencies like Bitcoin is merely a step in that process.

China's military beats America's by about 700,0000 boots.  The US has slightly better hardware but it's still tough to say who is more powerful.

They can't get those boots to the United States, and drones > boots, but I was not suggesting war between these two nations.  They are economic partners who are going to continue to work together to protect their mutual interests.

I'm just arguing against your statement that "America is backed up by the most incredibly powerful military the world has ever seen".  In some situations, China would be superior, in some America would be.  I doubt there will be a head to head conflict though.

[Rarity]

I think the world government will mutually destroys themselves before I launch my first blockchain satellite.

I doubt the US or China are going anywhere in the next few centuries.  China is historically an incredibly stable civilization and America is backed up by the most incredibly powerful military the world has ever seen.  The two nations will keep the peace in the interest of their real goals,  world economic domination and control of information.  Replacing physical currencies with easily monitored and regulated electronic currencies like Bitcoin is merely a step in that process.

China's military beats America's by about 700,0000 boots.  The US has slightly better hardware but it's still tough to say who is more powerful.

They can't get those boots to the United States, and drones > boots, but I was not suggesting war between these two nations.  They are economic partners who are going to continue to work together to protect their mutual interests.

I'm just arguing against your statement that "America is backed up by the most incredibly powerful military the world has ever seen".  In some situations, China would be superior, in some America would be.  I doubt there will be a head to head conflict though.

Outside of the context of trying to invade China, there is no context in which the American military is not vastly more powerful.  You need to understand how huge the disparity in investment in military efforts is:



Aircraft carriers are just an example, but one of the best since they are direct representations of ability to project power which is at the heart of any debate of military power that isn't about an invasion of either the US or China.   The disproportion applies to all military investment and American allies are the next biggest spenders.

[notme]

I don't believe your graphic since China isn't even on it.

[Rarity]

I don't believe your graphic since China isn't even on it.

It is a bit out of date.

They do have one cold war diesel model they bought half built off the Russians via a tourist company undergoing sea trials.  It's way inferior to decades old battle proven American nuclear carrier designs.:  

The 67,500 ton ex-Soviet aircraft carrier Varyag (Admiral Kuznetsov class), which was only 70% completed and floating in Ukraine, was purchased through a private Macau tourist venture in 1998. Following her troublesome tow to Dalian shipyard, the carrier has undergone a long refit. Varyag had been stripped of any military equipment as well as her propulsion systems prior to being put up for sale. News reports state that she is being fitted out to enter operational status.[2][12]

On 10 August 2011, it was announced that the refurbishment of Varyag was complete, and that it was undergoing sea trials.[13][14]

On December 14, 2011, DigitalGlobe, and American Satellite imaging company announced that while scouring through pictures taken December 8th, they had discovered the retrofitted Varyag performing maneuvers, DigitalGlobe elaborated that their images capture the ship in the Yellow Sea where it performed for 5 days. [15]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_aircraft_carrier_programme

Other than that, they are still trying to put shit together.  Now look at the graphic for what the US and allies have going, and have had going for decades.

[notme]

Sinking ~28 (counting is hard when they don't fit one one screen and I'm intoxicated) carriers wouldn't be that hard.

China has almost no debt and ridiculous amounts of assets.  America has spent the next decade's worth of taxes already.

America would be fucked in any serious conflict (I'm an American and I'm sad).

Our only hope is if we can get other people to fight and sell weapons to both sides like the beginning of WWII.

[Rarity]

Sinking ~28 (counting is hard when they don't fit one one screen and I'm intoxicated) carriers wouldn't be that hard.

Explain how.

Added difficulty:  You will be nuked into the stone age if you try this.
Extra Added Difficulty:  Your economy is dependent on the country you are fighting militarily for no reason.

[notme]

Sinking ~28 (counting is hard when they don't fit one one screen and I'm intoxicated) carriers wouldn't be that hard.

Explain how.

Added difficulty:  You will be nuked into the stone age if you try this.
Extra Added Difficulty:  Your economy is dependent on the country you are fighting militarily for no reason.

Surprise attack, torpedoes.  Ever heard of Pearl Harbor?

Added Difficulty Counter: You will be counter nuked.
Extra Added Difficulty Counter: Good point, but if they're fighting, there's a reason.  China will be much better off with an economic split than America will be.  They have production capacity, and ours is covered in cobwebs.

[Rarity]

Sinking ~28 (counting is hard when they don't fit one one screen and I'm intoxicated) carriers wouldn't be that hard.

Explain how.

Added difficulty:  You will be nuked into the stone age if you try this.
Extra Added Difficulty:  Your economy is dependent on the country you are fighting militarily for no reason.

Surprise attack, torpedoes.  Ever heard of Pearl Harbor?

Yes, I've also heard of the Battle of Thermopylae, but I'm not sure what it has to do with the proposed scenario of defeating nuclear carrier battle groups scattered around the entire globe, moving constantly at sea, surrounded by the best anti-air technology in the world, and protected by the best satellite and radar intelligence in the world, while on constant alert.  

Added Difficulty Counter: You will be counter nuked.

That isn't a difficulty for me as I'm not jacking off to some imaginary Tom Clancy war that will never happen, mainly because of the MAD.  

Extra Added Difficulty Counter: Good point, but if they're fighting, there's a reason.  China will be much better off with an economic split than America will be.  They have production capacity, and ours is covered in cobwebs.

Actually America manufactures more than they do by more than 40%.

http://www.dallasnews.com/business/headlines/20110130-u.s.-still-no.-1-manufacturing-country-despite-cutbacks-at-factories.ece

You really know nothing about the world, the economy, or the military, do you?

[notme]

Sinking ~28 (counting is hard when they don't fit one one screen and I'm intoxicated) carriers wouldn't be that hard.

Explain how.

Added difficulty:  You will be nuked into the stone age if you try this.
Extra Added Difficulty:  Your economy is dependent on the country you are fighting militarily for no reason.

Surprise attack, torpedoes.  Ever heard of Pearl Harbor?

Yes, I've also heard of the Battle of Thermopylae, but I'm not sure what it has to do with the proposed scenario of defeating nuclear carrier battle groups scattered around the entire globe and surrounded by the best anti-air technology in the world on constant alert.  

China has a lot of subs we know about and even more we don't know about.  Stealth sub technology is very hard to detect.

Added Difficulty Counter: You will be counter nuked.

That isn't a difficulty for me as I'm not jacking off to some imaginary Tom Clancy war that will never happen, mainly because of the MAD.  

Which is why we won't use nukes either.  Your point is still neutralized.

Extra Added Difficulty Counter: Good point, but if they're fighting, there's a reason.  China will be much better off with an economic split than America will be.  They have production capacity, and ours is covered in cobwebs.

Actually America manufactures more than they do by more than 40%.

http://www.dallasnews.com/business/headlines/20110130-u.s.-still-no.-1-manufacturing-country-despite-cutbacks-at-factories.ece

Right, because a newspaper with unsourced material is totally reliable .  Show me this supposed UN study and you may have some credibility, but we really only know what China tells us about China.  In the mean time, China will continue to grow it's population much faster than we possibly could and training these people to fight fiercely.  A few well placed EMP devices and all our drones and fancy hardware is just a bunch of scrap metal.  Even if we retaliate in kind China has the boots and the guns.

You really know nothing about the world, the economy, or the military, do you?

Well aren't you a cocky asshole?

I really can't think of a situation where the US and China would go head to head, but if it happens, the results won't be nearly as cut and dry as you claim.

[Rarity]

China has a lot of subs we know about and even more we don't know about.  Stealth sub technology is very hard to detect.

And the US has more and better subs and more and better anti-sub technology.  Explain how you defeat this, around the entire globe where the US and it's allies are dominant literally everywhere.  Life is not a movie.  

Which is why we won't use nukes either.  Your point is still neutralized.

No, the point that neither side will risk nuclear war is a point against either side ever going to war which is the point I am trying to drill into your vacant head.  Doing so would be inviting the nuclear war neither side will invite.  

Right, because a newspaper with unsourced material is totally reliable Roll Eyes.  

*head-desk*

Just take a quick look at the numbers. According to United Nations data, the U.S. is still the largest manufacturing country in the world. In 2009, American manufacturing output (in real terms) was nearly $2.2 trillion. That’s about 45% larger than China’s, at just under $1.5 trillion.

Read more: http://business.time.com/2011/03/10/can-china-compete-with-american-manufacturing/#ixzz22My09d2Q

I really can't think of a situation where the US and China would go head to head, but if it happens, the results won't be nearly as cut and dry as you claim.

You are the biggest retard on these forums by a wide margin, and that is quite an accomplishment.  You are the dumbass trying to imagine a war between the US and China, this is my first reply to your idiocy:

They can't get those boots to the United States, and drones > boots, but I was not suggesting war between these two nations.  They are economic partners who are going to continue to work together to protect their mutual interests.

[niko]

How are my ideas monstrous?  

The stripping away of individual liberties in favor of greater government control of our lives... 

Is there anyone here besides you who feels this is a positive socio-economic evolution?

Here. Not because I favor the government over personal freedoms, but because I favor the government over private, cancerous corporations that definitely don't give a rat's ass about my freedoms or anything other than their profits. Most of criticism I can aim towards governments nowadays is simply a consequence of corporate influence over governments.

Back to the topic: yes, I think Bitcoin is reasonably martial-law proof. Perhaps wouldn't be able to spend them easily, but they are extremely hard to destroy or take away.

[adamstgBit]

does martial-law imply shuting down the internet and the grid?

wtf would people do?

no one could live in the big cites, theirs no power! this is pure madness. no one is every going to shutdown the grid for any reason, their isn't any profit in it.

[notme]

China has a lot of subs we know about and even more we don't know about.  Stealth sub technology is very hard to detect.

And we have more and better subs and more and better anti-sub technology.  Explain how you defeat this, around the entire globe where the US and it's allies are dominant literally everywhere.  Life is not a movie. 

You defeat it by having assets instead of debt.  In lieu of assets, you have population which can be harnessed to produce goods.  China wins on both fronts.  America has bred many enemies the past few decades.

Which is why we won't use nukes either.  Your point is still neutralized.

No, the point that neither side will risk nuclear war is a point against either side ever going to war which is the point I am trying to drill into your vacant head.  Doing so would be inviting the nuclear war neither side will invite. 

I already agreed that war between the two is unlikely.  Multiple times in fact.  Learn to read instead of spewing insults.

Right, because a newspaper with unsourced material is totally reliable Roll Eyes. 

*head-desk*

Just take a quick look at the numbers. According to United Nations data, the U.S. is still the largest manufacturing country in the world. In 2009, American manufacturing output (in real terms) was nearly $2.2 trillion. That’s about 45% larger than China’s, at just under $1.5 trillion.

Read more: http://business.time.com/2011/03/10/can-china-compete-with-american-manufacturing/#ixzz22My09d2Q

Sure... if you ignore hong kong.  From http://unstats.un.org/unsd/snaama/dnltransfer.asp?fID=1 (the first data link on the UN page linked to by the article) if you add yuan and hkd denominated manufacturing, adjusting for each currency's current rate, in 2010 China's manufacturing sector produced $2,046,522,254,485 or $2.046 trillion.  This is compared to the $1,855,967,100,172 or $1.855 trillion listed for the good old USA.

[Rarity]

does martial-law imply shuting down the internet and the grid?

wtf would people do?

no one could live in the big cites, theirs no power! this is pure madness. no one is every going to shutdown the grid for any reason, their isn't any profit in it.

Civilian massacres have been a prominent feature of martial law throughout history, and you don't think the government will shut your lights off if they have to?

You defeat it by having assets instead of debt.  In lieu of assets, you have population which can be harnessed to produce goods.  China wins on both fronts.  America has bred many enemies the past few decades.

If China decides to go to war with America, guess fucking what? There isn't any American debt to China anymore. That is a great deal for America and a death sentence for the Chinese economy.  There is nothing more valuable than the trade between these two nations you could gain from a war. 

I already agreed that war between the two is unlikely.  Multiple times in fact.  Learn to read instead of spewing insults.

No, you moron, you drooled out some bullshit about boots in response to nothing I said and have been making breathtakingly ignorant military arguments ever since even as I try to tell you military engagement between these two countries is irrelevant as it isn't ever going to happen, that doesn't mean I can't tell you that you are also retarded for thinking China has any kind of aircraft carrier program worth putting on a chart.

Sure... if you ignore hong kong.  From http://unstats.un.org/unsd/snaama/dnltransfer.asp?fID=1 (the first data link on the UN page linked to by the article) if you add yuan and hkd denominated manufacturing, adjusting for each currency's current rate, in 2010 China's manufacturing sector produced $2,046,522,254,485 or $2.046 trillion.  This is compared to the $1,855,967,100,172 or $1.855 trillion listed for the good old USA.

It isn't added for a reason, but try and remember that your down syndrome addled brain is discussing this because you suggested the American manufacturing industry is in cobwebs.  Even with these numbers, producing slightly less with less than half as many people is not cobwebs. 

[niko]

does martial-law imply shuting down the internet and the grid?

wtf would people do?

no one could live in the big cites, theirs no power! this is pure madness. no one is every going to shutdown the grid for any reason, their isn't any profit in it.

Ask Iraqis, Serbs, Libyans, or anyone else who found themselves in a country bombed or invaded by NATO in recent years. Hint: http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/dumb/blu-114.htm

[notme]

does martial-law imply shuting down the internet and the grid?

wtf would people do?

no one could live in the big cites, theirs no power! this is pure madness. no one is every going to shutdown the grid for any reason, their isn't any profit in it.

Civilian massacres have been a prominent feature of martial law throughout history, and you don't think the government will shut your lights off if they have to?

You defeat it by having assets instead of debt.  In lieu of assets, you have population which can be harnessed to produce goods.  China wins on both fronts.  America has bred many enemies the past few decades.

If China decides to go to war with America, guess fucking what? There isn't any American debt to China anymore. That is a great deal for America and a death sentence for the Chinese economy.  There is nothing more valuable than the trade between these two nations you could gain from a war. 

I already agreed that war between the two is unlikely.  Multiple times in fact.  Learn to read instead of spewing insults.

No, you moron, you drooled out some bullshit about boots in response to nothing I said and have been making breathtakingly ignorant military arguments ever since even as I try to tell you military engagement between these two countries is irrelevant as it isn't ever going to happen, that doesn't mean I can't tell you that you are also retarded for thinking China has any kind of aircraft carrier program worth putting on a chart.

Sure... if you ignore hong kong.  From http://unstats.un.org/unsd/snaama/dnltransfer.asp?fID=1 (the first data link on the UN page linked to by the article) if you add yuan and hkd denominated manufacturing, adjusting for each currency's current rate, in 2010 China's manufacturing sector produced $2,046,522,254,485 or $2.046 trillion.  This is compared to the $1,855,967,100,172 or $1.855 trillion listed for the good old USA.

It isn't added for a reason, but try and remember that your down syndrome addled brain is discussing this because you suggested the American manufacturing industry is in cobwebs.  Even with these numbers, producing slightly less with less than half as many people is not cobwebs. 

Gotcha... dumb troll is dumb.

All you're doing in spewing personal insults and dodging my points.  I'm done here, and we're off topic anyway.

[Rarity]

does martial-law imply shuting down the internet and the grid?

wtf would people do?

no one could live in the big cites, theirs no power! this is pure madness. no one is every going to shutdown the grid for any reason, their isn't any profit in it.

Civilian massacres have been a prominent feature of martial law throughout history, and you don't think the government will shut your lights off if they have to?

You defeat it by having assets instead of debt.  In lieu of assets, you have population which can be harnessed to produce goods.  China wins on both fronts.  America has bred many enemies the past few decades.

If China decides to go to war with America, guess fucking what? There isn't any American debt to China anymore. That is a great deal for America and a death sentence for the Chinese economy.  There is nothing more valuable than the trade between these two nations you could gain from a war. 

I already agreed that war between the two is unlikely.  Multiple times in fact.  Learn to read instead of spewing insults.

No, you moron, you drooled out some bullshit about boots in response to nothing I said and have been making breathtakingly ignorant military arguments ever since even as I try to tell you military engagement between these two countries is irrelevant as it isn't ever going to happen, that doesn't mean I can't tell you that you are also retarded for thinking China has any kind of aircraft carrier program worth putting on a chart.

Sure... if you ignore hong kong.  From http://unstats.un.org/unsd/snaama/dnltransfer.asp?fID=1 (the first data link on the UN page linked to by the article) if you add yuan and hkd denominated manufacturing, adjusting for each currency's current rate, in 2010 China's manufacturing sector produced $2,046,522,254,485 or $2.046 trillion.  This is compared to the $1,855,967,100,172 or $1.855 trillion listed for the good old USA.

It isn't added for a reason, but try and remember that your down syndrome addled brain is discussing this because you suggested the American manufacturing industry is in cobwebs.  Even with these numbers, producing slightly less with less than half as many people is not cobwebs. 

Gotcha... dumb troll is dumb.

All you're doing in spewing personal insults and dodging my points.  I'm done here, and we're off topic anyway.

If you are to believed, there are no points to dodge!  I posted that the US and China are stable countries that will remain so for centuries.  China because of historical and cultural legacy, and America because of a dominant military regime.  There was nothing about war between them until you drooled out something about boots.

All this pointless mind numbing derail is because you were too dumb to read that my original point was not about war between the two countries and you just now seem to have caught up. 

[notme]

I'm just arguing against your statement that "America is backed up by the most incredibly powerful military the world has ever seen".  In some situations, China would be superior, in some America would be.  I doubt there will be a head to head conflict though.

I really can't think of a situation where the US and China would go head to head, but if it happens, the results won't be nearly as cut and dry as you claim.

Learn to read.  You're arguing against a point I never made, and denied multiple times.

[Rarity]

I'm just arguing against your statement that "America is backed up by the most incredibly powerful military the world has ever seen".  In some situations, China would be superior, in some America would be.  I doubt there will be a head to head conflict though.

I really can't think of a situation where the US and China would go head to head, but if it happens, the results won't be nearly as cut and dry as you claim.

Learn to read.  You're arguing against a point I never made, and denied multiple times.

You repeatedly tried to make the point that China is in some ways militarily superior because despite claiming it wouldn't happen you wanted to have some Tom Clancy wankoff about an American v. China war, you backed it up with some of the most idiotic statements in the history of this planet. At this point there isn't much more to be said, if you are still in school you need to start paying more attention.  If you have graduated you need to return to school and try and figure out what went wrong.  If you are employed, you should quit your job and go on disability for your mental impairment.  It isn't fair for any employer to have to put up with the liabilities you bring to the table.

[adamstgBit]

Martial law  = maintain order and security using any necessary force. If the gird was to break down, then maybe we would need Martial law to maintain order until they get it back up. I dont think bitcoin would be effect at all by any country, even the US, declaring Martial law. One has nothing to do with the other.


Rarity  -> click here <-  you really need to read this.

[notme]

You repeatedly tried to make the point that China is in some ways militarily superior because despite claiming it wouldn't happen you wanted to have some Tom Clancy wankoff about an American v. China war, you backed it up with some of the most idiotic statements in the history of this planet. At this point there isn't much more to be said, if you are still in school you need to start paying more attention.  If you have graduated you need to return to school and try and figure out what went wrong.  If you are employed, you should quit your job and go on disability for your mental impairment.  It isn't fair for any employer to have to put up with the liabilities you bring to the table.

China's military beats America's by about 700,0000 boots.  The US has slightly better hardware but it's still tough to say who is more powerful.

This is how it started.  I never said anything about them fighting each other until you said this:

I think the world government will mutually destroys themselves before I launch my first blockchain satellite.

I doubt the US or China are going anywhere in the next few centuries.  China is historically an incredibly stable civilization and America is backed up by the most incredibly powerful military the world has ever seen.  The two nations will keep the peace in the interest of their real goals,  world economic domination and control of information.  Replacing physical currencies with easily monitored and regulated electronic currencies like Bitcoin is merely a step in that process.

China's military beats America's by about 700,0000 boots.  The US has slightly better hardware but it's still tough to say who is more powerful.

They can't get those boots to the United States, and drones > boots, but I was not suggesting war between these two nations.  They are economic partners who are going to continue to work together to protect their mutual interests.

To which I replied:

I'm just arguing against your statement that "America is backed up by the most incredibly powerful military the world has ever seen".  In some situations, China would be superior, in some America would be.  I doubt there will be a head to head conflict though.

Looks to me like you're the one that kept pitting them against each other.  I was just trying to make state that China's military is arguably as powerful or possibly more powerful than America's.  Sure, it's kind of pointless since either force could crush any other military in the world, but the arrogance of Americans like you makes me sick.

All you seem to be able to do is insult my intelligence (which is 3 standard deviations above the mean btw) and put words in my mouth that I never said/typed.

[Rarity]

The powerful thing is what makes it so fucking idiotic, there is no question the US military is vastly more powerful.  That's why you look like such a moron when you compare boots to aircraft carriers.  As I've been trying to hammer into the vast emptiness above your shoulders, the only instance in which relative power is comparable is the fantasy war scenario that will never happen.  

That is why when you vainly tried to compare them you had to fall back on:  

In some situations, China would be superior, in some America would be.  I doubt there will be a head to head conflict though.

...comparing who would be more powerful in a head to head conflict that isn't going to happen. Just please dude, go back to school. I can't help you with this, you need professional educators.  The Chinese military could not crush any military in the world, they are not even close to even being able to get to most countries in the world because they don't have half the navy and airlift and power projection capabilities the US does.  They don't have the hundreds of overseas bases.  They don't have the money to blow to support the whole thing because they have more important domestic priorities.

Military Spending:

[AndrewBUD]

Vastly more powerful? any proof to this claim?


Anyone from China want to claim the opposite?

[notme]

The powerful thing is what makes it so fucking idiotic, there is no question the US military is vastly more powerful.  That's why you look like such a moron when you compare boots to aircraft carriers.  As I've been trying to hammer into the vast emptiness above your shoulders, the only instance in which relative power is comparable is the fantasy war scenario that will never happen. 

That is why when you vainly tried to compare them you had to fall back on:   

In some situations, China would be superior, in some America would be.  I doubt there will be a head to head conflict though.

...comparing who would be more powerful in a head to head conflict that isn't going to happen. Just please dude, go back to school. I can't help you with this, you need professional educators.

Cool story.  I have nothing to say because you're attacking a point I never said and your quote from me doesn't address.  Reading comprehension ftw.

You obouisly prefer insults to an actual discussion.

[Rarity]

The powerful thing is what makes it so fucking idiotic, there is no question the US military is vastly more powerful.  That's why you look like such a moron when you compare boots to aircraft carriers.  As I've been trying to hammer into the vast emptiness above your shoulders, the only instance in which relative power is comparable is the fantasy war scenario that will never happen. 

That is why when you vainly tried to compare them you had to fall back on:   

In some situations, China would be superior, in some America would be.  I doubt there will be a head to head conflict though.

...comparing who would be more powerful in a head to head conflict that isn't going to happen. Just please dude, go back to school. I can't help you with this, you need professional educators.

Cool story.  I have nothing to say because you're attacking a point I never said and your quote from me doesn't address.  Reading comprehension ftw.

You obouisly prefer insults to an actual discussion.

Good then, I am addressing no point because we entirely agree.  Why you felt the need to start this discussion with your boots is beyond any of us.

[notme]

Good then, I am addressing no point because we entirely agree.  Why you felt the need to start this discussion with your boots is beyond any of us.

Are you schizophrenic now?  Or perhaps multiple personality disorder?  Or are you egotistical enough to believe you speak for the entire forum?

Regardless, I'm going to bed, so enjoy having the last word .

[Rarity]

Good then, I am addressing no point because we entirely agree.  Why you felt the need to start this discussion with your boots is beyond any of us.

Are you schizophrenic now?  Or perhaps multiple personality disorder?  Or are you egotistical enough to believe you speak for the entire forum?

You seem to be the confused one, are our points now in conflict again? Make up your mind.  Do you want to stand by your idiotic comments or pretend you agreed with me the whole time, either way is fine with me.

[blablahblah]

Military Spending:

Refer to the bottom left-hand corner. The comparison is done in US dollars, which therefore makes it meaningless.
The exchange rate between the USD and CNY is contrived nonsense, and if I were to take a guess, the CNY is deliberately kept low in order to keep the bulk of the Chinese population working hard and unable to leave. Maybe there's some kind of decades' long agreement where the Chinese govt sold-out to the US, or maybe it's part of some long-term strategy for China to build-up their infrastructure and getting the rewards later. Either way, the current situation is unsustainable. They can't be the world's producers and poor indefinitely - something has to break.

[punningclan]

Bitcoin relies on cryptography, the transaction network may need electricity and infrastructure but arguing that removing centralized regulated versions of these would destroy Bitcoin means arguing that folk can never be self sufficient and that would be ludicrous.

[mobile4ever]

http://bitcoinstatus.rowit.co.uk/

I encourage bitcoin users to use the Satoshi client or any other client that downloads the full blockchain so it is stored on your comptuer.  

Do you know how big ( Megabytes ) that is?

A USB passed around could help as well.

[niko]

http://bitcoinstatus.rowit.co.uk/

I encourage bitcoin users to use the Satoshi client or any other client that downloads the full blockchain so it is stored on your comptuer.  

Do you know how big ( Megabytes ) that is?

A USB passed around could help as well.

 http://blockchain.info/charts/blocks-size

[mobile4ever]

http://bitcoinstatus.rowit.co.uk/

I encourage bitcoin users to use the Satoshi client or any other client that downloads the full blockchain so it is stored on your comptuer.  

Do you know how big ( Megabytes ) that is?

A USB passed around could help as well.

 http://blockchain.info/charts/blocks-size

Cool. Thanks! Looks like it just hit two gigs. That is easily passed around on a flash drive with plenty of room to spare.

[AndrewBUD]

http://bitcoinstatus.rowit.co.uk/

I encourage bitcoin users to use the Satoshi client or any other client that downloads the full blockchain so it is stored on your comptuer.  

Do you know how big ( Megabytes ) that is?

A USB passed around could help as well.

LOL.. Well.. 8gb's is the total size of my newly downloaded blockchain.. IMO that seems huge....

[niko]

http://bitcoinstatus.rowit.co.uk/

I encourage bitcoin users to use the Satoshi client or any other client that downloads the full blockchain so it is stored on your comptuer.  

Do you know how big ( Megabytes ) that is?

A USB passed around could help as well.

LOL.. Well.. 8gb's is the total size of my newly downloaded blockchain.. IMO that seems huge....

Are you sure you got that right? If you did, there may be fake, bloated chains out there in the wild!

[disclaimer201]

Interesting topic. Particularly the part about debts that would go up in thin air, but also the comparability (or lack thereof) of military spending in USD. I read a lot about Chinese anti-aircraft-carrier missiles a few months ago, and that all that was needed was a global guiding system for it to become precise. China is catching up fast it seems. What I find unnecessary in the discussions here is the arrogance and disrespect shown in some posts. If someone criticizes your opinion what's to gain from insulting them? You will antagonize people instead of convincing them. Even if you are right, you can hardly convince someone and insult them at the same time.

[ErebusBat]

What if rarity and notme are both right?

What if the USA and China were allies in a global war?  Feeding off of each other, using their best strengths?  Could any other county hope to even stand against that?

[ErebusBat]

What if rarity and notme are both right?

What if the USA and China were allies in a global war?  Feeding off of each other, using their best strengths?  Could any other county hope to even stand against that?

It seems plausible, bearing in mind the USA have been handing over its manufacturing and technical knowledge to China for decades. I find it hard to believe that this would be just a free market accident. However, China and Russia seem ideologically more closely aligned with their Communist-flavoured authoritarianism.

Also, I'm extremely concerned about China stepping up its rhetoric against Japan (regarding small disputed islands or something like that). I suspect that this is an excuse to deploy strategic defenses against the US' recent moves. Japan could even be in on the act.

<tinfoilhat>
Well... one could argue that they will build an east/west sort of thing.  That would actually be a very useful tool for the US to use.... "you need us... look at what happens over there!"  while China is left to it's own devises and continues to be the industrial backbone of the new world.