Cleanup: I'll attack some coins - I owned APEXcoin for 90 blocks

[G2M]

Curious, is the number of computations capped in the network, or potentially infinite as well? Can multiple stakers compete for this 200%?

If multiple stakers compete for 200% then the quotient is lowered from 200% to, say, 180%. If all the stakers compete then it's back to 100%.

Hm, do they obtain 200% of their own stake relative to the network, or is the result a higher net subsidy created overall?

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[Come-from-Beyond]

Hm, do they obtain 200% of their own stake relative to the network, or is the result a higher net subsidy created overall?

They just forge blocks 2 times more often.

[Este Nuno]

Curious, is the number of computations capped in the network, or potentially infinite as well? Can multiple stakers compete for this 200%?

If multiple stakers compete for 200% then the quotient is lowered from 200% to, say, 180%. If all the stakers compete then it's back to 100%.

Hm, do they obtain 200% of their own stake relative to the network, or is the result a higher net subsidy created overall?

No subsidy in NXT, only fees. So it's not as big of a problem as it would be if there were block rewards that inflated the supply.

[G2M]

Curious, is the number of computations capped in the network, or potentially infinite as well? Can multiple stakers compete for this 200%?

If multiple stakers compete for 200% then the quotient is lowered from 200% to, say, 180%. If all the stakers compete then it's back to 100%.

Hm, do they obtain 200% of their own stake relative to the network, or is the result a higher net subsidy created overall?

No subsidy in NXT, only fees. So it's not as big of a problem as it would be if there were block rewards that inflated the supply.

So, no incentive to perform this attack at all, other than temporarily centralizing it for the cost of power, or potential motivated destruction?

I suppose the solution toward removing it as a MAD attack vector, would be to introduce a subsidy.

[cynicSOB]

I can exploit how NXT works so I will forge more often than I should. I could make 1M NXT forge as often as 2M should.

This is a well-known stake vs computations trade-off. Effective stake asymptotically approaches 200% if burned electricity approaches infinity.

No, my approach does not require much extra computation.
Could you please point me to some literature on the well-known trade-off? I've read some things about that, but they seemed unpractical. I'd like to know if we're talking about the same thing.

By its very definition activated "Economic clustering" can't open new attack vectors in technical domain. Socioengineering attacks - yes, political attacks - maybe, but technical ones - unbelievable.

Is there a clear definition of how will "Economic clustering" be implemented? if you have a new consensus algorithm, there will be new strengths and new flaws. I'd rather not go into deeper discussion of something that is still not defined.

[Come-from-Beyond]

No, my approach does not require much extra computation.
Could you please point me to some literature on the well-known trade-off? I've read some things about that, but they seemed unpractical. I'd like to know if we're talking about the same thing.

By its very definition activated "Economic clustering" can't open new attack vectors in technical domain. Socioengineering attacks - yes, political attacks - maybe, but technical ones - unbelievable.

Is there a clear definition of how will "Economic clustering" be implemented? if you have a new consensus algorithm, there will be new strengths and new flaws. I'd rather not go into deeper discussion of something that is still not defined.

All this stuff is not systematized and I, unfortunatelly, don't have links ready.

[cynicSOB]

No, my approach does not require much extra computation.
Could you please point me to some literature on the well-known trade-off? I've read some things about that, but they seemed unpractical. I'd like to know if we're talking about the same thing.

By its very definition activated "Economic clustering" can't open new attack vectors in technical domain. Socioengineering attacks - yes, political attacks - maybe, but technical ones - unbelievable.

Is there a clear definition of how will "Economic clustering" be implemented? if you have a new consensus algorithm, there will be new strengths and new flaws. I'd rather not go into deeper discussion of something that is still not defined.

All this stuff is not systematized and I, unfortunatelly, don't have links ready.

Anyway, my approach does not rely on heavy computation, and it also has the potential of more than a 200% increase: no asymptotes here.


Regarding the double spend every 30hs, I have given all the technical details (which were never a secret, that's just how POW and POS work), so you'll have to admit it's possible: the only problem is acquiring the forging weight (be it leasing or buying/scamming/stealing/whatever).

edit: well, not the ONLY problem, you have to be able to forge a private chain, calculate the probability of actually double spending and have the ability to make the transaction that you want to reverse, still, it's possible.

[Este Nuno]

Regarding the double spend every 30hs, I have given all the technical details (which were never a secret, that's just how POW and POS work), so you'll have to admit it's possible: the only problem is acquiring the forging weight (be it leasing or buying/scamming/stealing/whatever).

Is this any different from the stuff outlined in Kushti's paper? Or is this different?

[BitMos]

lots of people complain about the quantity of coins and how the forum is flooded... some proposed ideas to clean it up....
I'll show you how it's done - I'll start attacking weak coins accelerating their death

just wait and see the results, I'll soon show the first victim. Let's start with PoS coins: some people think you need 51% of the supply but this is bs, you need only a very little % if you just want to do a single double spend.

the point of this thread is to see how people react to this: I won't steal from anyone, but some may lose "money".

Some questions:

1. is this a good idea?
2. would you donate so I can attack more POS coins? (maybe spare some coins you are bagholding)
3. would you pay to know the time of the attack and the victim in advance?
4. would you pay for "double spend as a service" (in this case you decide coin and the timing of the attack)?
5. is this legal?
6. do you think someone would pay to have me killed?

go!

update: apexcoin attack successful with 0,07% of available supply

so cool! I love it! I will try to find more time to read the topic, but I wish you fun... I hope those under attacks will be able to develop some counter measures, it will make the "game" more interesting... pow next?

[Eadeqa]

Don't trust just words , but what he did to apex was proof it can be done.

WTF apex has to do with Nxt? After Apex attack,  nxt users asked him to demonstrate the attack on Nxt. He has not yet demonstrated the attack, not even on testnet, that has fewer nodes. It's been a month.

[EvilDave]

Looks like Argon18 has taken his outraged sense of justice somewhere else.

Anyone else worrying about cynicSOBs reward for his work.....don't.
NXT has always been happy to pay up for solid information on exploits, and we're giving cynicSOB a free run on NXT Testnet, which is identical to Mainnet, but a much smaller sandbox environment...and TestNXT instead of the real thing.

Like most NXT projects, we'll talk/argue a lot and finally agree something after a vote or three, and if cynicSOBs work checks out, he'll get bountied.  

[allwelder]

Looks like Argon18 has taken his outraged sense of justice somewhere else.

Anyone else worrying about cynicSOBs reward for his work.....don't.
NXT has always been happy to pay up for solid information on exploits, and we're giving cynicSOB a free run on NXT Testnet, which is identical to Mainnet, but a much smaller sandbox environment...and TestNXT instead of the real thing.

Like most NXT projects, we'll talk/argue a lot and finally agree something after a vote or three, and if cynicSOBs work checks out, he'll get bountied.  

Any result?