Last new Scrypt miners! Will kill LTC/POWs? Titan 2nd Batch 400mh 2.5k of units

[Searing]

below is my rant on this on a LTC Is dead thread....figured it needed its own thread so i can get beat up on this properly

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=980998.msg10745602#msg10745602

Basically as the title says I am wondering what is gonna happen to LTC directly and POW coins in general when the last of the NEW and LAST
scrypt miners from KNC ...the Titan 400mh-450mh 2nd batch units (again last made) of around I heard 2.5k of units hit the world.

The effect (mainly) on LTC in that is about the only thing of note any Titan 1st batch or this last batch can mine with full out speed...and
the effect it will have on LTC /POW coins and in that there are NO FURTHER UNITS OF SCRYPT EQUIP BEING PLANNED OF ANY KIND HOME
MINER COMMERCIAL OR DATA HALLS ie...this be the last

below is my ramblings on what I see as the 2 choices all no roi no refund Titan users have from their somewhat 'dubious' future from back
in the day..so again will this splash of the LAST and the BIGGEST scrypt units ever made hurt or help LTC and/or by extension hurt/help all
POW coins?

again it is possible with a jump in BTC price and LTC and other ALTS haning on the coatails of such and also rising..if say it hit 600 BTC or 5 buck
LTC or some such...you would see MAYBE some equip annoucements either for commercial/home or data hall scrypt projects....but even so that
would take 5-7 months imho in that again there is NOTHING in the works by any manufacturer of any kind right now being planned beyond this
last 2.5k of units hitting the world of scrypt

anyway my ramblings below be warned ...again I own a Titan so my perspective is from the point of wtf am i gonna do and wtf is gonna happen
when this last 2nd batch of titan units hit the world and viola...nothing after? weird

a poll is also added feel free to chime in there on your best guess as well

NOTE: long speculative rant ...and i've  no idea on outcome ...either way LTC dead or otherwise..just the position of an asic miner at this point in time (ie stuck)
         feel free to skip below and/or put me on /ignore...i don't mind...you've been warned ramblings below.....(again asic miner skewed perspective to be clear)


so I'll give you why I'm mining LTC and holding (not that as you will see below i seem to have any choice) ... due to limits on full hash on equip (best LTC) and the stupid
knc titan no roi no refund purchase in the first place..

the setup:

now from my miners perspective.....from when i stated mining LTC (the only thing by the by that a Titan can mine full out with out a lot of hassle at least the first 3 months
not sure about current firmware) Nov 8th 2014 when i fired it up i was getting like 5.8 LTC on ghash and it was 3.80 a LTC now.  I'm getting on the 1 Titan 8.2 LTC per day..and the price is 2.00 usd ....so from my (admittedly dumb!.. knc purchase of the titan back in the day ..getting out of the hole $$$$ wise) perspective diff now is actually lower then when I started on Nov 8th mining LTC (hey it was my only choice with firmware/software on the SD at the time)..so sure i've lost a bit..but with diff unchanged and what i get out of the titan now per day vs when i started it up...anyway you can see my point on why (at this time) i'm mining LTC as fast as the little bugger can fly!

so...from the miner perspective...i've been mining LTC like all get out and the price has been around 1.70 to 1.80 say.. for a lot of that time....diff again is lower then when i started and from that point of view all is well....may not know where i am or where I'm going..but damn I'm making good speed

also I'm holding on the 'vain' if desperate hope that this mistake of a purchase of a knc no roi no refund titan 300mh can be 'lessened' as a loss somewhat by a 'hopeful' (if futile) chance that LTC will pop or at least stay at the 7/10's of a 1% it is now as BTC rises and again due to the fact of the firmware/software SD on the titan units....you can mine full out on LTC and if all else fails convert directly to $$$ or other POW coins on the fly..using multipools...but again what ya gonna do mine another ALT at 200mh or mine LTC at 300mh and convert or cash out....so everyone with these large 1st batch asic units are mining ..imho..even if not holding LTC initially


The choice of one out of the two below likely outcomes imho:


so anyway one of 2 things will happen to LTC (also realize my situation owning these miners skews my perspective)

thanks for reading..be interesting to see what happens

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[creuz]

Stop posting after ecstasy please.

[r0ach]

The biggest side effect would be that state sponsored, brute force hashing attacks to sabotage the chain become easier since the total amount of mining infrastructure wouldn't be that high.  This would give the chain less value if people think someone like North Korea is going to start cranking out scrypt ASICs.  PoW kind of relies on the idea that only one chain can exist and all the mining resources in the world are used on it.

So yea, if the mining infrastructure is exponentially lower than Bitcoin, that means there is little reason for anyone to pay attention to Litecoin except as some kind of emergency backup.  What is the value of an emergency backup?  I guess I would estimate something like 1-5% of BTC.  Trading is currently around 6/10ths of 1% of BTC.  Maybe there is room for a 30% increase somewhere down the line unless the market says BTC doesn't need a backup, then of course it would be 0.

It's hard to imagine a situation in which a problem directly caused the implosion of BTC but kept people having faith in Litecoin, unless the problem was directly caused by someone like Gaving doing some kind of update or fork.

[kelsey]

So yea, if the mining infrastructure is exponentially lower than Bitcoin, that means there is little reason for anyone to pay attention to Litecoin except as some kind of emergency backup.

1st what do you mean by "if the mining infrastructure is exponentially lower than Bitcoin"? do you mean raw hash?

and then what has mining infrastructure got to do with the worth of a currency?

one could equally argue whats the need for bitcoin now we have litecoin? it is an improvement even trolls admit that, just bitcoin has first mover advantage, but then so did the model T ford.

[wmtomlinso]

You keep talking about the titan only mines LTC.  That may have been true when you received the miner in Nov 2014, but  nowadays, the titan mines any scrypt coin at about the same speed.  How LONG HAS IT BEEN SINCE YOU UPGRADED YOUR FIRMWARE?  I put my miner on viacoin just as a test, very fast block times.   I set diff at 32k, and i get the  same hashing speed as LTC.    i only have 3 working cubes, so i get around 250 m-hash on everything.  put your titan on a nice multi-pool and forget about it...   i use coinmine.pw and it does pretty good - better than i expected.  

maybe i should mention i bought my new unopened titan on ebay for a third of what you paid ($3000) and I got it the next day.  all 4 cubes had issues right out of the box.  I rma'ed 2 cubes to sweden and the replacements KNC sent work perfectly.  From my perspective it hasnt been that bad.

oh yeah, isnt it strange that there was no big jump in hashrate after knc shipped all those miners last november?  i believe they had been mining with them for the last 6 months before they finally shipped them.

[r0ach]

So yea, if the mining infrastructure is exponentially lower than Bitcoin, that means there is little reason for anyone to pay attention to Litecoin except as some kind of emergency backup.

1st what do you mean by "if the mining infrastructure is exponentially lower than Bitcoin"? do you mean raw hash?

and then what has mining infrastructure got to do with the worth of a currency?

The security model against both state sponsored actors and illogical actors (ie: if Bill Gates decided for no reason to spend all his money on ASICs to try and take over the block chain), have to be factored into the value.  It can't just be ignored.  If some random, barely wealthy fool like Garey Busey can walk to the bank and take over the LTC blockchain in one day on a whim, then of course the currency is not going to have value.

Making the barrier to entry for mining high for random, normal people, by cutting production of miners, means the threat from state sponsored attacks increases, as well as the threat from random, illogical, wealthy people who can rent out a fab increases.

If they aren't a malicious attacker, then their activity will probably cause an increase in price that will get other fabs to produce.  If they are a malicious attacker, they can flat out kill the coin by removing all profit from the sector causing a domino effect/feedback loop of pools, exchanges, and ASIC vendors that deal with that coin's algorithm exiting making the whole ecosystem die.

Having said all that, regardless of attack vectors, a coin experiencing a regression in mining technology is obviously either going into a bear market or collapse.

[kelsey]

So yea, if the mining infrastructure is exponentially lower than Bitcoin, that means there is little reason for anyone to pay attention to Litecoin except as some kind of emergency backup.

1st what do you mean by "if the mining infrastructure is exponentially lower than Bitcoin"? do you mean raw hash?

and then what has mining infrastructure got to do with the worth of a currency?

The security model against both state sponsored actors and illogical actors (ie: if Bill Gates decided for no reason to spend all his money on ASICs to try and take over the block chain), have to be factored into the value.  It can't just be ignored.  If some random, barely wealthy fool like Garey Busey can walk to the bank and take over the LTC blockchain in one day on a whim, then of course the currency is not going to have value.

Making the barrier to entry for mining high for random, normal people, by cutting production of miners, means the threat from state sponsored attacks increases, as well as the threat from random, illogical, wealthy people who can rent out a fab increases.

If they aren't a malicious attacker, then their activity will probably cause an increase in price that will get other fabs to produce.  If they are a malicious attacker, they can flat out kill the coin by removing all profit from the sector causing a domino effect/feedback loop of pools, exchanges, and ASIC vendors that deal with that coin's algorithm exiting making the whole ecosystem die.

Having said all that, regardless of attack vectors, a coin experiencing a regression in mining technology is obviously either going into a bear market or collapse.

the price (i won't say value) of a crypto currency is moving further and further away from being controlled by mining, its becoming more controlled by the market (and over time less and less market makers care about who what when where and why of mining).

however security wise bitcoin itself has become less secure with the greater hash of the network, it wouldn't take much money now, because you don't even need your own hardware to orchestrate an attack.

[Searing]

You keep talking about the titan only mines LTC.  That may have been true when you received the miner in Nov 2014, but  nowadays, the titan mines any scrypt coin at about the same speed.  How LONG HAS IT BEEN SINCE YOU UPGRADED YOUR FIRMWARE?  I put my miner on viacoin just as a test, very fast block times.   I set diff at 32k, and i get the  same hashing speed as LTC.    i only have 3 working cubes, so i get around 250 m-hash on everything.  put your titan on a nice multi-pool and forget about it...   i use coinmine.pw and it does pretty good - better than i expected.  


maybe i should mention i bought my new unopened titan on ebay for a third of what you paid ($3000) and I got it the next day.  all 4 cubes had issues right out of the box.  I rma'ed 2 cubes to sweden and the replacements KNC sent work perfectly.  From my perspective it hasnt been that bad.

oh yeah, isnt it strange that there was no big jump in hashrate after knc shipped all those miners last november?  i believe they had been mining with them for the last 6 months before they finally shipped them.

all right i will look into it again.....thanks....i had no luck on 1.95 for example i now have 2.00 firmware will try it with different coins

side note: are you mining a particular alt or just making my bet that LTC as it relates to the coat tails of BTC price rise is too low at this time (imho)


i have 2 dead dies on 1 on each cube knc refused RMA because the Titan got over 300mh ...so good you had a decent rma experience


as to your 3k titan purchase

good for you 3k on the titan was a good score...recently ...i got a 2nd titan for 567usd no dead dies (2.3btc) with free shipping included...so i have doubled my hash rate...also i am on 3rd yr of 5 yrs as a biz...so i also knocked my 10,131.80 titan (orig 1st unit) down to 7.6k using equip depreciation in real $$$ as applied to taxes.in the last 2 years and now also this year (likely) supposedly i should have paid like 12k or so.....but have paid no taxes with equip ....so 2 more years to show as a biz...and i'm golden that also helps a lot at least it looks
like after all is said and one the orig titan is only a 7.6k mistake...so maybe i can get my complete $$$ back on this mistake

but yeah orig choice of titan was a bad choice 20/20 hindsight

as to knc just was on this page

http://www.kncminer.com/blog/newsarchive

seems now the only method of support is bitcointalk on 2nd batch titan folk etc....knc seems to have pulled the plug on support on forums and etc
you can still at this time get patch files off github..... except via email...looks like they kicked the forum and support folk to the curb

so it goes another day in crypto

[r0ach]

the price (i won't say value) of a crypto currency is moving further and further away from being controlled by mining, its becoming more controlled by the market (and over time less and less market makers care about who what when where and why of mining).

however security wise bitcoin itself has become less secure with the greater hash of the network, it wouldn't take much money now, because you don't even need your own hardware to orchestrate an attack.

That doesn't really make any sense because it's just not possible for mining and spot prices to diverge off into their own random paths.  Imagine a world where Bitcoin is the only currency, block reward is 0, and miners are mining Bitcoin transaction fees to pay for their electricity in Bitcoin (which you can technically already do).  If your mining costs are 1 Bitcoin, and you bring in 1.1 Bitcoin, that 0.1 Bitcoin every month is obviously just going to be continuously parlayed into more mining power over and over.  

Yea, you're competing with other miners for finite coins, but if you parlay everything and have cheap or free electricity, you're going to stay ahead of the curve.  You then don't want to sell at a loss, so this puts somewhat of a floor on the coin.  Exponentially rising cost of mining infrastructure isn't sustainable, so this puts somewhat of a ceiling on price, otherwise miners would parlay everything to infinity and the entire planet would be a Bitcoin miner.

So the miner floors and the miner expansion greed has just about everything to do with price.  You can have pretty much no actual commerce going on with tons of miners just sending coins around back and forth from Coinbase to MCXNOW and as long as there's a couple speculators somewhere on the planet to buy the dip, well, you got a BTC price.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0akBdQa55b4

[SockPuppetAccount]

Looks like there is still investment in developing new Scrypt ASICs.  The Titans are not the end of the line.

The company formerly know as Gridseed just finished the tapeout on new 28nm dual mining chips.  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=985400.0

[Searing]

Looks like there is still investment in developing new Scrypt ASICs.  The Titans are not the end of the line.

The company formerly know as Gridseed just finished the tapeout on new 28nm dual mining chips.  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=985400.0

thanks good to know..my premise on this thread is moot i guess..will leave this thread open...maybe others will trip over your link above..and
what the heck doing zanny asic theories like this keeps the streets safe from me right?

also found this link not sure if the 2TH is in the ballpark as stated in this link..but here it is for what it is worth

https://forum.gethashing.com/t/sfards-sf3301/1959

hopefully if all this is legit ..they will offer a toy/home miner option and will not go the "pre-order' route...one can hope
but man .. I would guess they would want a pretty penny for these

[SockPuppetAccount]

Looks like there is still investment in developing new Scrypt ASICs.  The Titans are not the end of the line.

The company formerly know as Gridseed just finished the tapeout on new 28nm dual mining chips.  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=985400.0

thanks good to know..my premise on this thread is moot i guess..will leave this thread open...maybe others will trip over your link above..and
what the heck doing conspiracy theories like this keeps the streets safe from me right?

If you are involved in the crypto world for any significant length of time, you start seeing conspiracies everywhere.  Its natural when you get so deeply involved into a subculture filled where you can't trust anyone.

The hooker who isn't being dismembered in your bathtub right now will never know how lucky she was that you spent your night on this instead of your twisted violent desires, ya sicko.

[MisO69]

Anyone know what happened to the KNC forums? I want to download the 2.0 firmware for the Titan but can't anymore.

[Searing]

Anyone know what happened to the KNC forums? I want to download the 2.0 firmware for the Titan but can't anymore.

under the news section of this new web site by knc they pretty much state the only support will be via email now it seems
from what i understand they do not answer questions from their main voice phone .or so folks have said in bitcointalk

here is the github link to the titan stuff incl v2.00 (which imho is probably their final version from what it looks like support wise..hope i'm wrong)

https://github.com/KnCMiner/titan/releases

jees no support and they still have equip to ship

[MisO69]

Anyone know what happened to the KNC forums? I want to download the 2.0 firmware for the Titan but can't anymore.

under the news section of this new web site by knc they pretty much state the only support will be via email now it seems
from what i understand they do not answer questions from their main voice phone .or so folks have said in bitcointalk

here is the github link to the titan stuff incl v2.00 (which imho is probably their final version from what it looks like support wise..hope i'm wrong)

https://github.com/KnCMiner/titan/releases

jees no support and they still have equip to ship

Thanks dude.

[SockPuppetAccount]

Looks like there is still investment in developing new Scrypt ASICs.  The Titans are not the end of the line.

The company formerly know as Gridseed just finished the tapeout on new 28nm dual mining chips.  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=985400.0

thanks good to know..my premise on this thread is moot i guess..will leave this thread open...maybe others will trip over your link above..and
what the heck doing zanny asic theories like this keeps the streets safe from me right?

also found this link not sure if the 2TH is in the ballpark as stated in this link..but here it is for what it is worth

https://forum.gethashing.com/t/sfards-sf3301/1959

hopefully if all this is legit ..they will offer a toy/home miner option and will not go the "pre-order' route...one can hope
but man .. I would guess they would want a pretty penny for these

Well remember that Gridseed focused pretty much exclusively on home miners when they got into the business.  They sold loads of those little orbs and blades, at prices that were reasonable at the time.  Scrypt mining tends to be more popular with home miners as it's more of a niche market, so I am assuming they will offer products to cater to that crowd.  On top of that, with new investment in mining gear not exactly streaming in at the moment, they can't price them too high.

Supposedly they are going to be shipping in April so I'll be watching this one closely for further announcements.

[Gladimor]

KNC Titan will not be the last Scrypt Miner. SFARDS (Gridseed co-op) is releasing a hybrid SHA256/Scrypt ASIC in April this year (0.3W/GH, 2J/MH)

[djm34]

KNC Titan will not be the last Scrypt Miner. SFARDS (Gridseed co-op) is releasing a hybrid SHA256/Scrypt ASIC in April this year (0.3W/GH, 2J/MH)

where is the source?

good one

[toptekk]

KNC Titan will not be the last Scrypt Miner. SFARDS (Gridseed co-op) is releasing a hybrid SHA256/Scrypt ASIC in April this year (0.3W/GH, 2J/MH)

where is the source?

http://www.sfards.com/



blog page has when the first one is being released

http://www.sfards.com/blog




cya .

[emdje]

I thought Chinese were small, but the blog post tops it all:
http://www.sfards.com/upload/images/images/2015/1425978699274415.jpg

edit: How do I make this image appear here? [img] [/ img] doesn't work