My suggestion to environmentalists.

[Tim Johnson]

If you see a ocean in danger of pollution and you want to protect it, get some friends together, buy some defense, protect it.

See an endangered species? Capture them, nurture them, protect them.

Is your favorite rainforest in trouble? Make a contract with the lumber company and pay them not to wreck it. Pay a local militia to protect it.

Tired of people hunting and camping on a piece of land? Buy it. Protect it.

It's very simple. All the tools you need to promote your cause are in front of you. You just need to organize your labor to make things happen. It's a lot simpler than begging for world government to take everything over and tax everyone into your cause.

[FirstAscent]

My last post in the other thread explained to you how environmentalism works, practiced by people who know a lot more than you. Why don't you let them suggest to you how to practice it, and let them educate you as well?

And if you want to start on some education, then read one of my posts here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=97243.msg1073879#msg1073879

Feel free to address that post first.

[Tim Johnson]

My last post in the other thread explained to you how environmentalism works, practiced by people who know a lot more than you. Why don't you let them suggest to you how to practice it, and let them educate you as well?

Their suggestions consist of me sacrificing my money, my property, my land and my way of life. You and your "experts" can go fuck themselves before they impose their solutions on me.

Your solutions and their supposed authority mean nothing to me because they go against my interests. They say I am an animal that is supposed to be controlled.

I will accept that after I am dead.

[FirstAscent]

My last post in the other thread explained to you how environmentalism works, practiced by people who know a lot more than you. Why don't you let them suggest to you how to practice it, and let them educate you as well?

Their suggestions consist of me sacrificing my money, my property, my land and my way of life. You and your "experts" can go fuck themselves before they impose their solutions on me.

Address this post: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=97243.msg1073879#msg1073879

[Tim Johnson]

My last post in the other thread explained to you how environmentalism works, practiced by people who know a lot more than you. Why don't you let them suggest to you how to practice it, and let them educate you as well?

Their suggestions consist of me sacrificing my money, my property, my land and my way of life. You and your "experts" can go fuck themselves before they impose their solutions on me.

Address this post: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=97243.msg1073879#msg1073879

The value of all the animals and plants you list is subjective. You value certain parts of them over desires of certain people.

That's all see.

There is nothing objective here. You can't force all people to value these things.

You can force them into submission though.

[FirstAscent]

My last post in the other thread explained to you how environmentalism works, practiced by people who know a lot more than you. Why don't you let them suggest to you how to practice it, and let them educate you as well?

Their suggestions consist of me sacrificing my money, my property, my land and my way of life. You and your "experts" can go fuck themselves before they impose their solutions on me.

Address this post: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=97243.msg1073879#msg1073879

The value of all the animals and plants you list is subjective. You value certain parts of them over desires of certain people.

That's all see.

Based upon the timing of your posts, I doubt you have read the post in question. You are an example of willful ignorance.

[dree12]

If you see a ocean in danger of pollution and you want to protect it, get some friends together, buy some defense, protect it.

See an endangered species? Capture them, nurture them, protect them.

Is your favorite rainforest in trouble? Make a contract with the lumber company and pay them not to wreck it. Pay a local militia to protect it.

Tired of people hunting and camping on a piece of land? Buy it. Protect it.

It's very simple. All the tools you need to promote your cause are in front of you. You just need to organize your labor to make things happen. It's a lot simpler than begging for world government to take everything over and tax everyone into your cause.

Tell me, why does the lumber company have the rights to the rainforest? Do they really create more value than non-destructive groups? Who decides who gets the rights to the rainforest?

Fact is, all this is subjective. Lumber companies may produce some value by exploiting the rainforest, but many would argue that more value is produced by leaving it alone. So why, why, should these lumber companies own the rainforest in the first place? Who sells it?

[Tim Johnson]

If you see a ocean in danger of pollution and you want to protect it, get some friends together, buy some defense, protect it.

See an endangered species? Capture them, nurture them, protect them.

Is your favorite rainforest in trouble? Make a contract with the lumber company and pay them not to wreck it. Pay a local militia to protect it.

Tired of people hunting and camping on a piece of land? Buy it. Protect it.

It's very simple. All the tools you need to promote your cause are in front of you. You just need to organize your labor to make things happen. It's a lot simpler than begging for world government to take everything over and tax everyone into your cause.

Tell me, why does the lumber company have the rights to the rainforest? Do they really create more value than non-destructive groups? Who decides who gets the rights to the rainforest?

Fact is, all this is subjective. Lumber companies may produce some value by exploiting the rainforest, but many would argue that more value is produced by leaving it alone. So why, why, should these lumber companies own the rainforest in the first place? Who sells it?

Because they have the cooperation, force and will necessary. They're stronger.

If you want your desires met, I suggest you start working towards them.

You can wait for your all-knowing god government to meet your desires or you can get them yourself.

[dree12]

If you see a ocean in danger of pollution and you want to protect it, get some friends together, buy some defense, protect it.

See an endangered species? Capture them, nurture them, protect them.

Is your favorite rainforest in trouble? Make a contract with the lumber company and pay them not to wreck it. Pay a local militia to protect it.

Tired of people hunting and camping on a piece of land? Buy it. Protect it.

It's very simple. All the tools you need to promote your cause are in front of you. You just need to organize your labor to make things happen. It's a lot simpler than begging for world government to take everything over and tax everyone into your cause.

Tell me, why does the lumber company have the rights to the rainforest? Do they really create more value than non-destructive groups? Who decides who gets the rights to the rainforest?

Fact is, all this is subjective. Lumber companies may produce some value by exploiting the rainforest, but many would argue that more value is produced by leaving it alone. So why, why, should these lumber companies own the rainforest in the first place? Who sells it?

Because they have the cooperation, force and will necessary. They're stronger.

If you want your desires met, I suggest you start working towards them.

You can wait for your all-knowing god government to meet your desires or you can get them yourself.

Are you advocating for a society in which a greater cooperation, force, and will implies the ability to rob others?

If so, expect to be robbed by the Mafia. Working with the Mafia might be the only way out of this. Be prepared.

[FirstAscent]

Tim, gain some respect. Here's how:

1. Understand what an ecosystem service is.
2. Understand the purpose of an umbrella species.
3. Understand what edge effects are.
4. Understand the causes of edge effects.
5. Understand how climate change will disrupt precipitation patterns and disrupt agriculture.
6. Understand how biodiversity is essentially one of the most important knowledge sources for medicine, material science, computer science and engineering.
7. Understand how the elimination of biodiversity essentially removes our technological potential.
8. Understand how trophic cascades affect you.
9. Understand how the rainforests are the repository of most of the world's biodiversity.
10. Get a clue.

[Tim Johnson]

If you see a ocean in danger of pollution and you want to protect it, get some friends together, buy some defense, protect it.

See an endangered species? Capture them, nurture them, protect them.

Is your favorite rainforest in trouble? Make a contract with the lumber company and pay them not to wreck it. Pay a local militia to protect it.

Tired of people hunting and camping on a piece of land? Buy it. Protect it.

It's very simple. All the tools you need to promote your cause are in front of you. You just need to organize your labor to make things happen. It's a lot simpler than begging for world government to take everything over and tax everyone into your cause.

Tell me, why does the lumber company have the rights to the rainforest? Do they really create more value than non-destructive groups? Who decides who gets the rights to the rainforest?

Fact is, all this is subjective. Lumber companies may produce some value by exploiting the rainforest, but many would argue that more value is produced by leaving it alone. So why, why, should these lumber companies own the rainforest in the first place? Who sells it?

Because they have the cooperation, force and will necessary. They're stronger.

If you want your desires met, I suggest you start working towards them.

You can wait for your all-knowing god government to meet your desires or you can get them yourself.

Are you advocating for a society in which a greater cooperation, force, and will implies the ability to rob others?

If so, expect to be robbed by the Mafia. Working with the Mafia might be the only way out of this. Be prepared.

You just described today's society.

Replace Mafia with Governments and Corporations.

[Tim Johnson]

Tim, gain some respect. Here's how:

1. Understand what an ecosystem service is.
2. Understand the purpose of an umbrella species.
3. Understand what edge effects are.
4. Understand the causes of edge effects.
5. Understand how climate change will disrupt precipitation patterns and disrupt agriculture.
6. Understand how biodiversity is essentially one of the most important knowledge sources for medicine, material science, computer science and engineering.
7. Understand how the elimination of biodiversity essentially removes our technological potential.
8. Understand how trophic cascades affect you.
9. Understand how the rainforests are the repository of most of the world's biodiversity.
10. Get a clue.

All I want to do is to keep my land. UN Agenda 21 designed by environmentalists says I shouldn't have it in the name of the greater good.

[FirstAscent]

Tim, gain some respect. Here's how:

1. Understand what an ecosystem service is.
2. Understand the purpose of an umbrella species.
3. Understand what edge effects are.
4. Understand the causes of edge effects.
5. Understand how climate change will disrupt precipitation patterns and disrupt agriculture.
6. Understand how biodiversity is essentially one of the most important knowledge sources for medicine, material science, computer science and engineering.
7. Understand how the elimination of biodiversity essentially removes our technological potential.
8. Understand how trophic cascades affect you.
9. Understand how the rainforests are the repository of most of the world's biodiversity.
10. Get a clue.

All I want to do is to keep my land. UN Agenda 21 designed by environmentalists says I shouldn't have it in the name of the greater good.

You can't make an effective point from the pulpit of ignorance. When you're ready to truly understand what you're discussing, I'll stop laughing at your remarks and consider them.

[Tim Johnson]

Tim, gain some respect. Here's how:

1. Understand what an ecosystem service is.
2. Understand the purpose of an umbrella species.
3. Understand what edge effects are.
4. Understand the causes of edge effects.
5. Understand how climate change will disrupt precipitation patterns and disrupt agriculture.
6. Understand how biodiversity is essentially one of the most important knowledge sources for medicine, material science, computer science and engineering.
7. Understand how the elimination of biodiversity essentially removes our technological potential.
8. Understand how trophic cascades affect you.
9. Understand how the rainforests are the repository of most of the world's biodiversity.
10. Get a clue.

All I want to do is to keep my land. UN Agenda 21 designed by environmentalists says I shouldn't have it in the name of the greater good.

You can't make an effective point from the pulpit of ignorance. When you're ready to truly understand what you're discussing, I'll stop laughing at your remarks and consider them.

When you try to take my way of life away in the name of environmentalism, you will get a point of a bullet in your head.

I have yet to meet a man who can outsmart a bullet.

[dree12]

If you see a ocean in danger of pollution and you want to protect it, get some friends together, buy some defense, protect it.

See an endangered species? Capture them, nurture them, protect them.

Is your favorite rainforest in trouble? Make a contract with the lumber company and pay them not to wreck it. Pay a local militia to protect it.

Tired of people hunting and camping on a piece of land? Buy it. Protect it.

It's very simple. All the tools you need to promote your cause are in front of you. You just need to organize your labor to make things happen. It's a lot simpler than begging for world government to take everything over and tax everyone into your cause.

Tell me, why does the lumber company have the rights to the rainforest? Do they really create more value than non-destructive groups? Who decides who gets the rights to the rainforest?

Fact is, all this is subjective. Lumber companies may produce some value by exploiting the rainforest, but many would argue that more value is produced by leaving it alone. So why, why, should these lumber companies own the rainforest in the first place? Who sells it?

Because they have the cooperation, force and will necessary. They're stronger.

If you want your desires met, I suggest you start working towards them.

You can wait for your all-knowing god government to meet your desires or you can get them yourself.

Are you advocating for a society in which a greater cooperation, force, and will implies the ability to rob others?

If so, expect to be robbed by the Mafia. Working with the Mafia might be the only way out of this. Be prepared.

You just described today's society.

Replace Mafia with Governments and Corporations.

Look, I care little about what you believe me to be supporting, but I can assure you it is nowhere near as disastrous as what you are. I have neither supported the "governments" nor the "corporations". You have supported such a society by stating that all must "work with" a tyrannical forestry industry. Effectively, you have advocated breaking up the government and instilling a fascist regime of industries that gain the right to exploit and rapidly deplete every bit of the Earth's resources, with the only barrier being pesky organizations left with no option but to "consult" with them. Does this sound like a government?

I, on the other hand, have supported organized societal movements. I have rejected this right that you proclaim for a forestry industry to "own" a rainforest. Let me ask you again: who sells the rainforest? Who gets to use it?

[FirstAscent]

Tim, gain some respect. Here's how:

1. Understand what an ecosystem service is.
2. Understand the purpose of an umbrella species.
3. Understand what edge effects are.
4. Understand the causes of edge effects.
5. Understand how climate change will disrupt precipitation patterns and disrupt agriculture.
6. Understand how biodiversity is essentially one of the most important knowledge sources for medicine, material science, computer science and engineering.
7. Understand how the elimination of biodiversity essentially removes our technological potential.
8. Understand how trophic cascades affect you.
9. Understand how the rainforests are the repository of most of the world's biodiversity.
10. Get a clue.

All I want to do is to keep my land. UN Agenda 21 designed by environmentalists says I shouldn't have it in the name of the greater good.

You can't make an effective point from the pulpit of ignorance. When you're ready to truly understand what you're discussing, I'll stop laughing at your remarks and consider them.

When you try to take my way of life away in the name of environmentalism, you will get a point of a bullet in your head.

I have yet to meet a man who can outsmart a bullet.

You know what you want. And I know what you want. But being able to define what you want is not being able to justify what you want. You're like an infant who has learned how to scream for a toy. But you definitely don't appear to be like someone who knows what he wants and knows what humanity depends upon ultimately derives from.

[Tim Johnson]

If you see a ocean in danger of pollution and you want to protect it, get some friends together, buy some defense, protect it.

See an endangered species? Capture them, nurture them, protect them.

Is your favorite rainforest in trouble? Make a contract with the lumber company and pay them not to wreck it. Pay a local militia to protect it.

Tired of people hunting and camping on a piece of land? Buy it. Protect it.

It's very simple. All the tools you need to promote your cause are in front of you. You just need to organize your labor to make things happen. It's a lot simpler than begging for world government to take everything over and tax everyone into your cause.

Tell me, why does the lumber company have the rights to the rainforest? Do they really create more value than non-destructive groups? Who decides who gets the rights to the rainforest?

Fact is, all this is subjective. Lumber companies may produce some value by exploiting the rainforest, but many would argue that more value is produced by leaving it alone. So why, why, should these lumber companies own the rainforest in the first place? Who sells it?

Because they have the cooperation, force and will necessary. They're stronger.

If you want your desires met, I suggest you start working towards them.

You can wait for your all-knowing god government to meet your desires or you can get them yourself.

Are you advocating for a society in which a greater cooperation, force, and will implies the ability to rob others?

If so, expect to be robbed by the Mafia. Working with the Mafia might be the only way out of this. Be prepared.

You just described today's society.

Replace Mafia with Governments and Corporations.

Let me ask you again: who sells the rainforest? Who gets to use it?

Whoever is allowed to by the organization or man with the most military force.

You have to use force or persuasion to get your way in this world. There is no other way.

I am only preaching reality.

[Tim Johnson]

Tim, gain some respect. Here's how:

1. Understand what an ecosystem service is.
2. Understand the purpose of an umbrella species.
3. Understand what edge effects are.
4. Understand the causes of edge effects.
5. Understand how climate change will disrupt precipitation patterns and disrupt agriculture.
6. Understand how biodiversity is essentially one of the most important knowledge sources for medicine, material science, computer science and engineering.
7. Understand how the elimination of biodiversity essentially removes our technological potential.
8. Understand how trophic cascades affect you.
9. Understand how the rainforests are the repository of most of the world's biodiversity.
10. Get a clue.

All I want to do is to keep my land. UN Agenda 21 designed by environmentalists says I shouldn't have it in the name of the greater good.

You can't make an effective point from the pulpit of ignorance. When you're ready to truly understand what you're discussing, I'll stop laughing at your remarks and consider them.

When you try to take my way of life away in the name of environmentalism, you will get a point of a bullet in your head.

I have yet to meet a man who can outsmart a bullet.

You know what you want. And I know what you want. But being able to define what you want is not being able to justify what you want. You're like an infant who has learned how to scream for a toy. But you definitely don't appear to be like someone who knows what he wants and knows how what humanity depends upon ultimately derives from.

Guns justify wants. They can justify yours too.

[FirstAscent]

Tim, gain some respect. Here's how:

1. Understand what an ecosystem service is.
2. Understand the purpose of an umbrella species.
3. Understand what edge effects are.
4. Understand the causes of edge effects.
5. Understand how climate change will disrupt precipitation patterns and disrupt agriculture.
6. Understand how biodiversity is essentially one of the most important knowledge sources for medicine, material science, computer science and engineering.
7. Understand how the elimination of biodiversity essentially removes our technological potential.
8. Understand how trophic cascades affect you.
9. Understand how the rainforests are the repository of most of the world's biodiversity.
10. Get a clue.

All I want to do is to keep my land. UN Agenda 21 designed by environmentalists says I shouldn't have it in the name of the greater good.

You can't make an effective point from the pulpit of ignorance. When you're ready to truly understand what you're discussing, I'll stop laughing at your remarks and consider them.

When you try to take my way of life away in the name of environmentalism, you will get a point of a bullet in your head.

I have yet to meet a man who can outsmart a bullet.

You know what you want. And I know what you want. But being able to define what you want is not being able to justify what you want. You're like an infant who has learned how to scream for a toy. But you definitely don't appear to be like someone who knows what he wants and knows how what humanity depends upon ultimately derives from.

Guns justify wants. They can justify yours too.

I'm sorry, but I was hoping for some intellectual discussion here. Try again.

[dree12]

If you see a ocean in danger of pollution and you want to protect it, get some friends together, buy some defense, protect it.

See an endangered species? Capture them, nurture them, protect them.

Is your favorite rainforest in trouble? Make a contract with the lumber company and pay them not to wreck it. Pay a local militia to protect it.

Tired of people hunting and camping on a piece of land? Buy it. Protect it.

It's very simple. All the tools you need to promote your cause are in front of you. You just need to organize your labor to make things happen. It's a lot simpler than begging for world government to take everything over and tax everyone into your cause.

Tell me, why does the lumber company have the rights to the rainforest? Do they really create more value than non-destructive groups? Who decides who gets the rights to the rainforest?

Fact is, all this is subjective. Lumber companies may produce some value by exploiting the rainforest, but many would argue that more value is produced by leaving it alone. So why, why, should these lumber companies own the rainforest in the first place? Who sells it?

Because they have the cooperation, force and will necessary. They're stronger.

If you want your desires met, I suggest you start working towards them.

You can wait for your all-knowing god government to meet your desires or you can get them yourself.

Are you advocating for a society in which a greater cooperation, force, and will implies the ability to rob others?

If so, expect to be robbed by the Mafia. Working with the Mafia might be the only way out of this. Be prepared.

You just described today's society.

Replace Mafia with Governments and Corporations.

Let me ask you again: who sells the rainforest? Who gets to use it?

Whoever is allowed to by the organization or man with the most military force.

You have to use force or persuasion to get your way in this world. There is no other way.

I am only preaching reality.

You'll find that that ideology is overwhelmingly antiutopian.

Society is a powerful force programmed into humans. Without it, quarreling would have driven us to extinction. Military force has in the past been used neither chiefly for terror, nor chiefly for the robbery of power. Rather, it has been employed for reunification, for development of an ideology, or for the betterment of society as a whole.

Eventually, society improves. We are built as a species to work together, not to persuade each other to get our way. A rainforest offers us necessary components for life. Society can easily topple the will of a destructive forestry industry if the problem gets worse. But for now, environmentalism can reduce the cleanup we might need later if a crisis occurs.

The reality you speak of is distant from the reality we live in.

And when both sides have guns? When both have missiles? Nuclear warheads? Think your point of view is a little south of reality.

During the cold war, there was a state coined "MAD": mutually assured destruction. Neither party struck first, because neither party could gain from it. Society is not zero-sum.