Gathering Opinions: Stickies in Lending

[BadBear]

I never liked the stickies. Using stickies for categorization seems like a misuse of the feature. How about "long-term offers" under "Lending" for this kind of stuff, and no restrictions on post content?

That probably would work better. Would leave three informational stickies, and one could be moved as John said. Would it be intended for the deposit services only or the lending services as well?

[gene]

If we adhere to elementary ethical standards, then the answer is straightforward.

Stickies should be reserved for warnings against fraud rather than free advertisement for fraudsters.

I'm not holding my breath, though. I see that the forum sells ad space to ponzi schemes on this very page. Based on the best available information, this place is knowingly facilitating fraud.

Keep in mind that legally, intent can be established from predictable consequences.

[theymos]

Would it be intended for the deposit services only or the lending services as well?

Both.

[gene]

Theymos and other admins/moderators/etc.,

In the interest of transparency and since you are de facto gatekeepers here, would you each care to describe your individual positions on profiting from (via ads) and facilitating the promotion of manifest frauds?

Are you comfortable accepting responsibility for your roles and will you accept the blame for providing a venue for con-artists and not taking due diligence in protecting bitcoin newcomers? Will you be pleased to explain your current choices, actions, and non-actions once this superstructure of fraud collapses?

Finally, do you believe that your current choices, actions, and non-actions will help or hurt bitcoin in the long-term? Please justify your response.

Given the facts of the currently unfolding situation, these questions seem quite reasonable and are salient to the stakeholders in the bitcoin community.

I should also note that your actions to date imply much about the above, but your individual responses or non-responses may be illuminating, nonetheless.

[theymos]

In the interest of transparency and since you are de facto gatekeepers here, would you each care to describe your individual positions on profiting from (via ads) and facilitating the promotion of manifest frauds?

No forum staff gets paid from forum revenue. Only about 75 BTC has ever been spent from the forum funds. The rest is kept in reserve (mostly in this cold storage address).

Are you comfortable accepting responsibility for your roles and will you accept the blame for providing a venue for con-artists and not taking due diligence in protecting bitcoin newcomers? Will you be pleased to explain your current choices, actions, and non-actions once this superstructure of fraud collapses?

Finally, do you believe that your current choices, actions, and non-actions will help or hurt bitcoin in the long-term? Please justify your response.

Allowing potential con-artists to post here is entirely consistent with the forum's policy of free speech. Free discussion and free trade will help Bitcoin more than (temporary) PR gains would. Truth is best determined through discussion and a free market, not through decree by moderators. When BS&T defaults, I will be happy that I:

- Allowed individuals to make their own investment choices freely.
- Allowed individuals to freely post their thoughts on BS&T, positive or negative.
- Posted my own honest thoughts on BS&T. (I'm pretty sure it's a Ponzi scheme.)

[PatrickHarnett]

Stickying individual lenders is as bad as  stickying individual merchants and should be avoided as the forum should be agnostic and not recommend one over the other.

This is a good point for a meta discussion and goes to the objectives of the site.  The two main threads I have in "lending" were stickied at someone else's request.  If they were not stickied, that wouldn't particularly bother me either, but it would make it harder for forum users to get the information they are seeking.  A simple example is hunting for information in the securities sub-forum and that is much more crowded than lending.

If the objective is to promote efficient commerce, then due to the limitations of the forum as a tool, there are not too many ways of doing this.  Providing access and information to the top dozen lenders could occur in a single thread and even a single post.  You might have requirements such as a minimum level of capital available to loan rather than allowing people that are max'd out advertising with no capability.  Also, as is already covered in https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=97214.0 there is a list of lenders and their preferred market space.

[BadBear]

In the interest of transparency and since you are de facto gatekeepers here, would you each care to describe your individual positions on profiting from (via ads) and facilitating the promotion of manifest frauds?

No forum staff gets paid from forum revenue. Only about 75 BTC has ever been spent from the forum funds. The rest is kept in reserve (mostly in this cold storage address).

Are you comfortable accepting responsibility for your roles and will you accept the blame for providing a venue for con-artists and not taking due diligence in protecting bitcoin newcomers? Will you be pleased to explain your current choices, actions, and non-actions once this superstructure of fraud collapses?

Finally, do you believe that your current choices, actions, and non-actions will help or hurt bitcoin in the long-term? Please justify your response.

Allowing potential con-artists to post here is entirely consistent with the forum's policy of free speech. Free discussion and free trade will help Bitcoin more than (temporary) PR gains would. Truth is best determined through discussion and a free market, not through decree by moderators. When BS&T defaults, I will be happy that I:

- Allowed individuals to make their own investment choices freely.
- Allowed individuals to freely post their thoughts on BS&T, positive or negative.
- Posted my own honest thoughts on BS&T. (I'm pretty sure it's a Ponzi scheme.)

Agreed, asking us to impose our will on others just because you think they're wrong is a little extreme. People are gonna do what they want to do, the only thing you can do is warn them. If people choose to ignore your warnings, then that is absolutely their right to do so.

Stickies should provide information important to lenders/lendees, not advertise the latest get rich quick scheme.

[finkleshnorts]

I It would be nice to see the Who Pays What thread stickied. John's list of defaults would be nice too. Perhaps another sticky thread profiling all of the main lenders. 3 is a good number.

Just my MHO.

[Maged]

I never liked the stickies. Using stickies for categorization seems like a misuse of the feature. How about "long-term offers" under "Lending" for this kind of stuff, and no restrictions on post content?

As always, theymos solves a whole set of problems with one simple solution. I support this.

Since we have a "Who Pays What?" sticky (which would be moved over), we should also have a sticky listing the major lenders. Thinking it over, the "How to Request a Loan." thread already does this and should remain in the main Lending section, while the lending threads themselves should be unstickied and moved over.

I am prepared to have this implemented immediately. That's why I posted this thread - getting the community's input was extremely valuable. Thanks to everyone who contributed.

[theymos]

I created the subforum. Someone else can move the posts.

[BadBear]

I created the subforum. Someone else can move the posts.

I saw that, and saw Maged wasn't on so I went ahead and got a good start. I did a lot at once so people will see where they go.

Wasn't sure what to do with Micon's thread so I just left it for now, but since it's about those long term offers it should probably be there as well.

[imsaguy]

I created the subforum. Someone else can move the posts.

I saw that, and saw Maged wasn't on so I went ahead and got a good start. I did a lot at once so people will see where they go.

Wasn't sure what to do with Micon's thread so I just left it for now, but since it's about those long term offers it should probably be there as well.

Please don't take me for being an ass, but shouldn't a thread started to debate whether a thread is actually lending or not be in Meta?

[FreeMoney]

I created the subforum. Someone else can move the posts.

I saw that, and saw Maged wasn't on so I went ahead and got a good start. I did a lot at once so people will see where they go.

Wasn't sure what to do with Micon's thread so I just left it for now, but since it's about those long term offers it should probably be there as well.

Please don't take me for being an ass, but shouldn't a thread started to debate whether a thread is actually lending or not be in Meta?

Threads about lending go in lending, threads about the lending forum (and any other forum) go in meta. Wait, where do posts about what goes in meta go? (theymos? meta-meta forum?)

[BadBear]

I created the subforum. Someone else can move the posts.

I saw that, and saw Maged wasn't on so I went ahead and got a good start. I did a lot at once so people will see where they go.

Wasn't sure what to do with Micon's thread so I just left it for now, but since it's about those long term offers it should probably be there as well.

Please don't take me for being an ass, but shouldn't a thread started to debate whether a thread is actually lending or not be in Meta?

Not at all, if I didn't want opinions I wouldn't have asked. If it were talking about just one thread in particular or the forum itself I'd be inclined to agree, it's pretty off topic to lending. Seems to be more general discussion about all investment schemes that offer unusually high returns or are suspicious for other reasons, and I wouldn't want to stifle discussion of that, especially since the concerns seem reasonable enough.

[Maged]

I created the subforum. Someone else can move the posts.

I saw that, and saw Maged wasn't on so I went ahead and got a good start. I did a lot at once so people will see where they go.

Thanks! I was watching the closing ceremony, so I was gone for awhile. From a quick glance, this looks good.

Wasn't sure what to do with Micon's thread so I just left it for now, but since it's about those long term offers it should probably be there as well.

That's a hard call. One of the things you need to consider when placing a thread is what its primary audience is. Although the topic itself doesn't fit there, it's very clear that its target audience is specifically that forum. That's what makes this a hard call. I can't decide either way on this.

[PatrickHarnett]

I created the subforum. Someone else can move the posts.

I saw that, and saw Maged wasn't on so I went ahead and got a good start. I did a lot at once so people will see where they go.

Thanks! I was watching the closing ceremony, so I was gone for awhile. From a quick glance, this looks good.

Wasn't sure what to do with Micon's thread so I just left it for now, but since it's about those long term offers it should probably be there as well.

That's a hard call. One of the things you need to consider when placing a thread is what its primary audience is. Although the topic itself doesn't fit there, it's very clear that its target audience is specifically that forum. That's what makes this a hard call. I can't decide either way on this.

Given today's changes it clearly no longer fits.  meta would be a better place as it's actually discussing something related more to gambling/securities (although I note a securities PPT thread got moved to "long-term")  At best, it could possibly move into "marketplace" as it discusses a wide range of activities (aside from the tedious and pointless rehashing of many other discussions).

[gene]

What a surprise. The scam-artists want to get the expose as far away from their promotional material as possible.

Keep in mind that the scam subforum (I fail to see how a ponzi scheme qualifies as "long-term") remains under the legitimate heading "Lending."

[imsaguy]

What a surprise. The scam-artists want to get the expose as far away from their promotional material as possible.

Keep in mind that the scam subforum (I fail to see how a ponzi scheme qualifies as "long-term") remains under the legitimate heading "Lending."

We were having an adult conversation in this thread without any name calling until you decided to post.

I'd like to know what the 'scam subforum' is.  Could you please clarify?  If you're implying that all long term investment opportunities are scams, then you need to start a new thread about that.

[Clipse]

What a surprise. The scam-artists want to get the expose as far away from their promotional material as possible.

Keep in mind that the scam subforum (I fail to see how a ponzi scheme qualifies as "long-term") remains under the legitimate heading "Lending."

Hey, wait in line. I will make sure to tell Mage that you want your own special sub-forum, Whiny-bitches.

[gene]

I'd like to know what the 'scam subforum' is.  Could you please clarify?  If you're implying that all long term investment opportunities are scams, then you need to start a new thread about that.

In this very thread, the decision was made to create a subforum for the express purpose of housing several ponzi schemes. The subforum was given a misnomer; Ponzi schemes are not long term nor are they investments. You can call it whatever you want. I prefer clear and simple language.