Bitcoin Forum

...

"What cannot be repaid, will not be repaid."
- traditional

Despite the five year drama on Greece and their attempts to stay in the EU and with the euro, it is clear that Greece will NOT repay their external debts.  Despite this latest "deal", the math cannot be ignored: Greece cannot pay their debts, so they will not.  Some kind of default is inevitable.

In general there are three ways extreme debtors use to extinguish debts (other than paying up):

1)  Inflate them away.  This (as well as number three below) is what most governments around the world are doing.  Printing the money.  An increased inflation rate lowers the real value of the debt, borrow money, and repay in devalued money in the future.  This is easy to do.

2)  Default (don't pay).  This happens from time-to-time.  Argentina has defaulted twice in recent years.  Greece has defaulted many times in its +/- 100 year modern history as a nation.  A large scale default tends to be deflationary, there are perils to a population and government in a country that defaults.

3)  Increase the debts!  Debtor countries, including the USA, can often get away with this as long as lenders perceive that they will get their money back (at least recently-loaned money).  This is the easiest of them all in the short-term  But, increasing debts almost always leads to ever increasing problems trying to pay (or later restructure).  Because at some point, no one will loan them any more money...

*   *   *

Of course, any country just getting into trouble would find that total long-term harm is less by biting the bullet and paying their debts quickly.  The problem is that politicians, and their electorates, only want EASY solutions.  Paying debt is never the "easiest" solution.

Greece is in an advanced state of huge debts (their debt: GDP ratio is around 177%).  They cannot pay them off, at least in uninflated terms.

Greece will default.  The mathematics is irrefutable.  The only question is how and when.  Which of the above options they will use.

Beware.  Prepare.  European debts (US debt too) are a big problem, with big consequences,  that will likely spread here.

I can only agree. Greece is totally insolvent since years, but neither Greece nor the other EU-members want to admit it.

The recent decision to throw even more billions down the drain clearly shows that the EU is mostly ruled by ignorant, incompetent, and irresponsible debt-addicts, that will lead Europe to epic calamity.

ya.ya.yo!

Yeah, the EU will never see their money back, they just refuse to leave the Greece people out in the cold with an uncertain future. The ironic part is that the people of Greece seem to prefer the unknown, on their own but united together than under the "over bearing" watch of the European Union.

For Greece to turn things around they need to realize that paying taxes is required if people are to expect so much out of their government. And the Government needs to be willing to collect on those taxes, they need to be the bad guy some times.

The secret to this answer --> Where is the debt kept and how much does the other countries giving these loans have to lose, if Greece default on the loans?

I have seen some scary statistics on how much of this debt will cripple economies who provided these loans. One of the biggest losers are Germany. So for Greece this has severe consequences, but

the other countries supporting them, will take some huge knocks too.. The short term solution for these countries are to keep the Greece economy going, in the hope that they would get some more

money back, before everything collapse. The problem with that is, the Greeks do not want more loans and more debt. This has NO good ending like a Irish love story.  :( :( :( 

They can't pay, but they signed over lots of hard assets:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-07-13/what-assets-did-greece-just-hand-over-europe-airports-airplanes-infrastructure-and-m

One report I heard listed power generation facilities as well.  They will never regain those assets, ever.

This is all a big circus by both Troika and Tsipras. They know they'll never get their shit together. The debt is unpayable, Merkel doesn't even want to remove the 30% of debt suggested by Tsipras. We will end up on the start line again in no time, and we'll have another referendum, only this time it will be "do you want to leave the eurozone?"

People around the world need to ask themselves what is wrong with their leaders.  Are they all:

a) collectively the most incompetent group of people ever

or

b) knowingly working in concert to enrich and empower only the elite mega rich and large corporations

Watching things unfold both in the USA and abroad, I think b) is much more likely.

I'd stay with a). The "elite mega rich" are rich because they understand and use the current monetary system for their advantage. Politicians are not working in concert to empower these people; politicians' main skill is simply to squander money (to get reelected). Most politicians don't have a clue about how the current fiat scheme works. They are easily influenced.

So it's incompetence by the "leaders" and - you should not forget about that - by the majority of the population that votes them into office.

ya.ya.yo!

The majority vote them into office by way of their lies on the campaign trail.  How many of these "leaders" actually come through with the "promises" they make?  Even 0bumma and his former adviser david axelrod ADMITS he had to "hide" his position on certain issues to maintain his electability.  And people dont care that they are admitted liars!!!

Greece has seriously tipped over and they failed as a country

It kind of problems dont can be resolve on a couple of years, But certainly pay can be done for them, I remember at least a country that got up even after of the  devastation.

There going bankrupt and they'll probably sonnet or later start using bitcoin

Greece will inevitably go bankrupt and has sold now all its hard assets so it is getting poorer and poorer, soon we will see Greece as part of Africa, not Europe and unfortunately the Greek people still want to live in the bubble of a good life on borrowed money..I feel sorry for Tsipras because he just has his hands tied either way..Unless the Greeks get outside of the big cities and start growing more veggies, stop borrowing money to buy German cars and sending their kids all to University and private English lessons, rebuilding their country, paying their taxes, we will see a third bailout program failure and an even more poorer Greece..

they have other 3 years of fund from the central european bank, they have their ass covered for now, but they need to plan all the changes to be done to fix all the issue with their country, so taxes, pension ecc...

they will not use bitcoin, no governments will adopt bitcoin, the only people that can do it are the citizens and not a single entity like a government or banks...

I do hope they do develop a parallel digital currency of their own as a crowdfunding/revenue source..I know Alexis Tsipras has probably one of the hardest Roles to play in modern Greek History and I whole heatedly hope he pulls it off, but the Greek people have to start helping him out big time, He can't do the job on his own. There needs to be a change in mentality and also the corruption has to be stopped like a knife..I hope the ministry of corruption gets all those big shark tax evaders and collects and freezes their assets..

Other EU member countries will pay Greece debt, all EU countries are friends  :D

I think Africa is too much, but it will definitely end up as a some sort of Romania type of country. It's not going to get any better for them. Both Tsipras and Troika know the current conditions cannot be ever meet. So it's either Troika giving Tsipra a better deal in the next months or riots on the street because the Greeks cannot handle it anymore.

They need a kind of inspiration of Aristotle,Socrates,Demosthenes,Plato and the great Greek philosophers any of them would tell them to do.

A philosophy can't help them, even they have had Aristotle, Plato, etc in ancients. imo the best and easy way is sold the some islands to neighbor countries, but it will be useless if the corruption is still rampant there. At the time, the government force the greeks to pay high tax and the price of food has risen at the same time.

Reminds me of what happens to the IMF loan they defaulted 2 weeks earlier before they get this fresh loan. Probably a write-off?

For sure the Greeks will not be able to pay the debts. Not now and not ever. The problem is how much that and all the possible solutions will affect the everyday life of them. For this must be harder to make prediction. Because for this question is fighting Tsipras and all the other Greek politicians.

Who bet that the Greeks will continue to do the "dolce vita" even with the every kind of restrictions they must have from the countries who give them the money?

Hope to be wrong.... But is a worthless hope.

LOL This is hilarious, thanks for the Giggle..Well the debt certainly can't be paid off within the next three generations unless thew debt gets restructured with a serious haircut. I want to see the EUROZONE peeps shave the debt at least by 605 like they did for Germany after world war two lol.

Exactly. What  has happened is poignant. They have compensation for the moment from the central bank  , but it will take a long time for them to cover all the damage that has taken place.  Of course ,bitcoin is not a viable option for them, not for the people for now  nor for the government or banks which is kinda never gonna happen. (for the banks ) to adopt BTC.

The people can perfectly start using BTC on their own, we don't need to wait for institutions to jump in because they will most likely never do it. Anyway, in 10 years, a 10 year old will already know how to use BTC and recieve and send payments. By the time he is 18, do you think he is going to open a bank account? do you think he will like the fees, the waiting 3 days for an operation to get confirmed.. and all the rest of the shitty remarks of the traditional banking system? Nope. Thats how the traditional banking system will die.

With big respect for your thoughts about bitcoin and for the bitcoin itself I don't think that that boy in the age of 18 it is not going to open a bank account. If he will work to live he will have his money only through the banks. So the banks are essentials for our life. We only hope that the banks at his 18 age will be better and will have adopted bitcoin as a currency in its everyday doing things.

The point is that debt relief shouldn't be gotten without genuine severe hardship.  I think (I hope) most European leaders know that they won't see their money back.  But there are two problems in applying directly a debt relief:

1) as long as they can pretend that the debt will be paid back, they don't have to take it officially in the deficit of their own states.  No politician wants to be blamed for having added 60 billions to the state deficit because he "allowed" Greece to a debt relief.  As long as those debt papers lie there, they can pretend that the money is still somehow due.

2) There are other European countries, such as Spain, Ireland and Portugal, who went through a lot of harsh measurements, who didn't get any debt relief, and who are starting to surface again.  If Greece gets an easy debt relief, why wouldn't these countries not get debt relief too ?  And the problem is: their debt is too big, it would ruin the whole European economy if their debt were resolved.  They are working hard to become solvent again.  Why would they, if they could just ask for a relief ? 
So the point is that the Greek have to bleed so hard for their debt relief, that nobody is going to want to ask for one again.

Why Greece don't leave the EU? it may the only way to avoid bankruptcy of the country.
                                                                                       

Hi, I think its Greece last option to get out of his problems. They have to take right decisions regarding Economy. But on the other hard, it will be counter productive if they will implement for austerity measures in pensions etc

Greeks are planning on increase of VAT of tourist sector. For now Restaurants and Cafes pay 13% VAT - it will increase to 23%. Hotels and other similar services pays 6.5% now and will be paying 13%.
But I am afraid that this is not enough to save them. Their debt is already unpayable at this point.

The worlds leaders (not their government, in the eyes of the people government has its own sovereignty and independence, but that is not the case, this is just a mask) want the world to be in debt, cause that is the only way you can enslave a human, a communities, a states, a reigns and in the end the whole world. The world is run by debt. Just take a look which state is the most indebted at the moment.

Big words but for me are a paranoia. If all the leaders are such the human kind is dead. The leaders are created and elected by the people. If the peoples of all the world are so stupid to create and elect such people we are truly at the end.

The debt is only a economic tool that is used in difficulties, needs or even desires. Everyone in difficulties, in need or to fulfill a desire which want money create a debt. Then work to pay it. Who is responsible take a debt that can afford. Who is irresponsible think only about new ways to take debt over debts.

The same for the leaders. There are responsible and irresponsible ones. Greece, most of the times, was governed by irresponsible leaders. End of the story.

I don't think that's gonna help right now. Greece needs a slap in the face to get back on the right track and work it out otherwise if they run back to drachma, it will be the most worthless money in the world.

I have many Greek friends and they say with the increase of unemployment, the crime rate has increased. You have to be more vigilant for pick pockets on the streets and theft has increased dramatically. Mostly things like phones, cameras and money clips.
The prices on food hasn't changed much and prices have stay reletively the same.

So this talk on increases in VAT for tourists is ok by my friend  ;D
He lives in a rural area where he doesn't care much what happens in the big cities.

If the rate of crime will continue to increase this it will be a very big problem for the Greece. Not only for the simple people which will be more unsure while going on the streets but for the economy too. The tourists will be less and less and the tourism is one of the major resources for the Greece. The Government need to solve quickly this problem without being returned big problem.

you won't have crimes increase, because no one will buy anything there without money, hell they can't even rob a bank, because they have no money, at least until the new funds arrive from the central banks

the best thing that criminals can do is robbing stuff there and go sell abroad, but it's too tedious to be worth it

I don't know why people blame the EU for this.

Greece cooked their books in order to make it so they could join the EU, they were already a house of cards financially before they joined.

Very good post,whan Greece will default,Whan banksters will steal what thay can steal,and than thay will let Greece goes,no mercy

you know about that 50blnto50bln fund,that idea is not new one,mrSchauble did it 25 years ago in east Germany,it causes poverty and east Germany citzens mass emigration to West,stiil after25 years East Germany is Germany B

look link,very interesting http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jul/17/germany-greece-wolfgang-schauble-bailout (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jul/17/germany-greece-wolfgang-schauble-bailout)


Next big  question is,what will happen whan Russia will be bankrupt,it may happen in two years

cooking the books is a old thing. most companies do it esp when they want more profits, but when a country does it pretty much hits global level.

as for the repayment, we all know that they wouldnt or couldnt have paid regardless based on past history.

No matter what caused it to happen.  I feel sorry for them, I see it getting even worse personally.

But watching lines of people in this day and age waiting in line to get money from ATM and are limited per day is scary.

Its only a problem for greece, and the rest of the euro just watches while it crumbles.

And expect a payment of some form, I`d actually just cut my losses if I was the one of the bigger countries that lend the euro.

This is indeed something I can't wrap my mind around, why Tsipras didn't want to leave (but was trying to blackmail the rest of Europe with his Grexit, until, just after the referendum, this became a realistic option, and he got scared as hell).

Greece leaving would have been far far better for everybody, including Europe and Greece.

The only one saying that out load was Germany's finance minister, Schaeuble, and he got all the sins of Israel on his head for saying so.
 

The point is that the leaders of those countries are not the owners of the debt: their country is.  The only thing that those leaders want to put safe is their next election.  If you "take your losses" (which would, from a business PoV, be indeed the most sensible thing to do), then YOU are the cullprit who is responsible for that loss.  If you can kick the can to your successor, then you might still win a few elections before it becomes impossible to kick the can.
So from a personal advantage PoV of a poltical leader, there's no benefit to be taken in taking the losses now.  You prefer having your country having larger losses, but later, when another dude has to face it.

It was for instance the main motivation for Frau Merkel.  She was facing the fact that at her next potential election, she would have to explain to the Germans that she "broke" Europe, and that she incurred a loss of about 80 billion Euros to Germany (which they already have lost, but can pretend to still own as long as Greece didn't default officially).

In that respect, Hollande, the French president, was more thoughtful of his country, which is also seriously indebted and fighting deficit: for him it was a dreamed-of occasion to try to shove all European debt in Germany's ass, France's included.

 Agree with you Dinofelis,but the reason to keep Greece in EuroZone and EU is also Greece geopolitical location
One big issue is,that even IMF,USA and even Mario Draghi were saying ,that debt reduction is needed,without that that money will not go to Greece economy and situation will repeat.It will be like that faster than in three years

Like the Greek government who wastes money casually, and debts with people to live, and do not make efforts for improving themselves, leading to the fiscal deficits exploded. What could EU do? If Greece quits from eurozone, it would be the disaster of euro. The countries which are on their way up do not need to attend the defective currency system.

No it won't!

Your model of the goal and outcome is wrong. Read my my post at the following link:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1082909.msg11937734#msg11937734

The entire EU will brought into debt crisis and only then will there be a monetary reset in a NWO slavery system.

Dumb ass European people can't even see what is so obvious to me since 2010 when I predicted this outcome.

I think thats the point. Its a message as to the consequences of a nation`s default. Conclusion = just keep borrowing (fear and insanity)

The only responsible course of action for Merkel and EU is to heavily cut Greece's debt. Even if it wasn't for the fact that German and EU banks are partially responsible for the crisis with their irresponsible lending, it is as you said,  Greece cannot pay. They can either continue their draconian austerity measures and repayment demands which will cause further destabilization and harm Greece's economy even more, or accept the very real fact that Greece simply cannot pay, cut their losses and move on.

Well at the end, either will the debt be cut by the EU countries or the Greece will go down the drain and leave the Euro zone and EU completely. Their debt is unsustainable and that has been calculated.

Other thing is that this fact above nobody wants to admit, so expect in 5 years yet another chaos.

Apart from Simpel math, they do not keep their word, as they've shown with the loans what were handed out last time. The general population of Greece is complaining, comparing it even to the Holocaust which is ignorant. It's their government that is screwing things up, they agree to terms, get the money and just setup a new governing structure. Thank you for the money.

As for tax and minimum wages, they've had it way better than most other EU countries. And they are doing fine.

The 'rich'  countries have had to cut even deeper, the Netherlands raised their tax to 21% long ago, my income tax is at 50% while my health insurance, and electricity has tripled.

Posted From bitcointalk.org Android App

...

crazy-pilot

There is no doubt that you are right, at least in part.  Greece has a very irresponsible borrower in recent years, defaulting a number of times.

Yes, there is other blame to go around (Germany, the Troika, Goldman-Sachs, etc.), but Greece itself bears a lot of the blame for their situation.

 Last data about Europe public debt
Eurozone public debt is 94.5% to GDP
Greece public debt is 165% to GDP,decreasing

Itaty public debt is 135%to GDP,increasing
France 97% increasing very fast
Germany 74% decreasing slowly

All EU countries pubic debt is 84%

any new born child in EU is in  debt

Welcome in Europe

yeah the problem is not only with greece it's the whole fucking eu that is in debt, if other country are smart enough or at least their citizens, should start buying in something valuable in the future like bitcoin or if they prefer gold, which is tanking, maybe a good opportunity to buy

instead i'm sure that they will wait to reach the conditions of greece before moving their ass, while they repeat that they are not at danger like the greece

 Word exit can be most popular word of time,look what is going on in Europe
Grexit,soon Gexit referendum in GB to leave EU,Italy exit,today Beppe Grippo posted to nationalise banks,exit from euro and use Italy debt like weapon against Germany.He is using Greece like an example whatcan happen in Italy.FranceExit.Jean Marie Le Pen who has big chance to be next France president,Cataluna exit
there are lcal elaction in Spain,iit will be combined with referendum to separate Cataluna from Spain.If separatist party will win,Cataluna may separate from Spain in 18 months.Cataluna is most wealthy area in Spain,and there isalready enugh for them to pay for Madrid frauds

Upcoming elections in 2015,Spain,Portugal,Poland,maybe Greece,and just after France,Germany,Italy

How will  looks like that post Greece world in Europe,people are watching and thay will call for change.Finally thay see that they are pay for all of that and nobody never  asked them did thay agree to pay

More than 90% of the world nations are in debt. Only a select few are free from government debt (rich nations such as Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates and Qatar). The governments are spending more than their overall tax revenues, and that is the reason why the debt is climbing. But most of the government spending is not reaching the tax payers. It is used for bank bailouts, warfare.etc

This can't go on forever.

I dont know. Debt is just a number and numbers can go on forever.

well the current crisis begs to differ, apparently it can't go forever, greece is the primarely example of the euro that is struggling against usd, usd isn't actually rising it's all the other that are falling...

usd did not lost so much probably because it was(and still it is) the number one among fiat

What is the debt to GDP of Greece that the papers spew out? 165% or something like that? One day they could be reporting 9000% debt to GDP. They may need to abandon reporting GDP soon and come up with a new measure. At what point will the masses realise that there is no hope? I concur that it feels like it is approaching, I have long since accepted that the national debt problem is a mathematical impossibility. It feels like such a slow creep though. Can but wait.

How are Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates and Qatar debt free? How do they manage their currency. No usury?

For sure Greece will not be able to pay. Not only this credit that Tsipras will have ultimately but even another more bigger will help. To pay the debt Greece must have an economy that produce for itself and for paid the credits. But the economy of Greece is devastated by the lasts governments because the Greece politicians who governed Greece thought for their momentarily interests and not for the best of their country.

Very truth,at the end of year Greece will enter even bigger recession that thay are now,whatever will get new money or not.That new agreement will be reached at the end of September,nowthereare not yetagreement reached in what hotel and where negatiotiations will be

Capital control will stay for 1.5 year,Geece people will be more poor and poor,finally thaywill go to strrets to manifest and will be strike after strike
Some info from Europe.Spaigh cuted his 40% cost of work and now immediatly his economy improved

Italy is planing big tax reduction ,stating that year finishing 2018,it will give Italy 200 bln euro,anyausterity

I think wecan start to bet,what will be first Grexit or Euroexit the end of Euro

Totally agree with both, they should have gone for a Grexit, I think it would even be beste to go to each their own currency. You just can't compare countries, their government, mentality and so forth. It was a bad idea from the beginning. The problem however, they just don't know what will happen if it comes to a Grexit, or a Euroexit, there are multiple models they calculate with but, the simple fact is they just don't know. They don't have a backbone, so they keep pumping money in it. They've let to many countries in the EU and in the EURO, greed an shortsighted.

Varoufakis apparently is working on an alternative solution as we speak. He has said he doubts there will be any deal in august. I wonder if it involves any cryptocurrency usage. Its starting to look an unavoidable Greexit at this point.

...

Zero Hedge reports that retail sales in Greece are down up to 70%.  Think about that...

The same article says doctors are leaving Greece...

We have already known for a couple of years that pharmaceuticals are now very hard to get.

Life is going to be very hard in Greece for sometime.  And Russia & China will not save them, R & C are delusions for saving Greece.

Incredible, that may be the only way possible to "stick it to" the bankers.  They want to have supreme control of Greek's lives, well what happens if they all leave the country!  This is a scenario I dont think anyone was thinking about!

they have to pay their own dept, that is their thing and they should take care of that. But the worst thing in all of this is that the Vat from 13% now is 23%, and you spend more money if you go on holiday there :)

There is already EuroDrachma created ,it is been presented in GreeceTV and press.Complimentary currency
.More important it will run under umbrella of payservices,exelent service with his own exchange.Supporting 130 fiat money 400 cryptos and some complimentary currencys.Thay wiil have mobile aps desktop apps

very legit,Thay already has Eu financial licences ,Israel,and thay will obtained USA banking licences

It may help Greece very much.Sardigna Island has his own complimentary currency and hissmall local community has nice benefit becouse of that

Looks like Greece will defoult,Secret leaks has been released that IMF doesnt want to be part of new bailout

Thay want huge Greece debt reducton,that Germany is not agree and some others EU countrys

Point is that will be new elections in Spain,Italy,Portugal
If one of that countrys will leave Eurozone,that Euro will fail
In that moment France is bankrupt,his economy is very,very weak.Therearealreadysome talks to create new
north Eu countrys union,France is very nervous

But how much many will lost some greedy speculators when Russia will stop to pay

Will be no negotiations,Russia  will simply not pay

You can read TheGuardian,it is best european newspaper

...

Pab

Hey, if France leaves, it's all over.  Presumably Spain and/or Italy and/or Portugal would fail before France, so that would be PIGS and Cyprus even before France.

If France falls Germany falls.

Then you all have 48 hours, max, to get your final preps done before the tsunami hits the USA.  Smart people will want to closely monitor not only Europe, but China as well.  Chinese (Shanghai) stocks are down about 0.5% as I write.

France doesnt want leave,all that EU bailouts are in fact french and german bailouts,that iswhy thay are still puting bln in Greece,problem will be when Euro  will fail,what may happen if any of three pigs and greece will leave Euro

One more thing
Deutche Bank is owning derivatives wort 5x of  all Eu nation GDP
it isvirtual ponzi what need more andmore fresh blood to survive

And there will be more and more about Catalunia wiill separate from Spain,Catalunia is richest Spain area,thay doesnt need EU

China collapse will be problem for China,catastrophe for westerness world

At least China will shutdown stock markets

You raise some good points Pab.

Deutsche Bank ("Douche Bank" to some of us Americans) does indeed have HUGE exposure to derivatives that could create BIG PROBLEMS if allowed to default.  I just do not know much about the conditions of big European banks, I hear that in general they are at least as weak as the big American ones (which are pretty weak).  Nor do I know anything, really, about derivatives exposure in Europe.

Catalunia is an interesting case, thanks for bringing that up.  A "Devolving Europe" probably would mean even more trouble.

China is a Big Black Hole.  No one really knows what would/will happen when China implodes.......

Europe and Athens need to sign a more comprehensive deal than before, because if they fail to do so, Greece won't even get any new loans from IMF.
I think Athens and Brussels started a new round of negotiations on an 86 billion euro bailout after striking a preliminary deal earlier this month. At the other hand, Tsipras is taking shit from Greece’s creditors to do more and include unpopular steps to curb early retirement and tax breaks for farmers. Poor guy Tsipras :(

Tsipras isn't poor. According to me he made a big mistake since the first day he take the power in Greece. He believed that he would be able to change the mind of  the leaders of the Europe, of International Monetary Fund and the European Central Bank about the conditions of the credits to give the Greece using his oratory and demagogy. He believed to much in his capacity to persuade the others and thought that the others will be convinced by him. Meantime he neglected the economy of Greece which gone worst and worst during all his time in power. For this all the credits that will be negotiated from here to the future will be worsts than it would be before his coming in power.

Tsipras seems a good guy. He seems that loves his people and want the best for him. Especially for the people in need. But this doesn't matter in econmy. If are debts they must be paid. This is a rule that cannot be avoided. Even it will be some of the debt that will be granted there are to much other that must be paid. So he must prepare the Greece to work hard and to be prepared for hard times.

I understand that all his decisions weren't really the best ones, everybody makes mistakes. Its not his mistake exclusively, so for us to put all the blame at him. And instead of pointing fingers at people, I think more concentration should be provided on how to make the debts go away by hard work. There is no substitute to that, and I think that Tsipras is taking it like a man and handling it well, I think he's a nice guy.

Tsipras made all his efforts and really tried to defend Greece’s €86 billion bailout deal with the international creditors. He has always made it clear that grexit is not a choice. many people question that but let's be realistic here. It would have forced Athens into devaluation and going back to the IMF for support again and again and the cycle would keep repeating nevertheless.

Its common knowledge Greece will never pay its loans. It is imho the EU putting Greece in its place so that other countries like Spain etc make an effort to get their
finances together and not go down Greece's road.

So essentially they will play this farce out as long as possible...so that the Banks etc that we're imho pressured into giving these bad loans to Greece by their respective governments  in the first place...get some kind of return on their investment and the Greeks be damned. So the farce goes on. Bad policy decisons by the EU, so the politicians are playing hard ball to cover up their previous mistakes.

of course greece will never be able to pay its debts. it's kinda like a drug addict. you give him a huge load of drugs, and you'll not hear anything from him for a short time, but when there is nothing left, he'll keep asking for more.

Is there any question that Germany will accept debt relief? Are we not approaching a stage where minds are taught that the IMF holds the most sway in situations like this? This is one scenario I can consider.

They might disagree as is reported and the IMF supplies no further funds to Greece, leaving Greece in a predicament. It's one hell of a slow show though. Gambling in the sports arena was far more exhilarating than the bitcoin arena.

 Below you can read  IMF statment

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/jul/30/imf-will-refuse-join-greek-bailout-until-debt-relief-demands-met (http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/jul/30/imf-will-refuse-join-greek-bailout-until-debt-relief-demands-met)

Will Germany accept Greece debt reduction,like for now no,maybe symbolic,just a little

Behind that is also fight for Germany Chancelor between Merkel and Schauble.Merkel lost a lot of support in her own party becouse of last negotiations with Greece,Schauble has gained a lot,he wants to be new Germany Chancelor.That will be nightmare for Europe and by my opinion will cause many conflicts in Europe

By the way.He is son of soldier of German elite military forces SS .His father has died during fights in War2,on Greece island Kreta

Politicians are judged by the results of their decisions, not by their intention. The January they received a partially stabilized economy, with primary surplus and small GDP growth, and now their policy over the last 7 months has created a primary deficit, closed banks for about 2 weeks and even more recession of about 4-5% GDP. Moreover, they have caused a great political instability because their MPs did not support the new bailout which is going to be the government policy for the next years but they do support the goverment! That's complete madnesss!

Well then there are a lot of times when big politicians have made huge mistakes but it did not mean that they should be blamed and thrown behind the bars, nobody really wants to be in this situation anyway. Greece has its hands tied and are forced to beg for money from the eurozone while Eurozone does not want Grexit to take place as it can be really dangerous if other countries start getting a little too involved, shit happens. let's deal with it.

EU big banksand USA big banks is one big loving family,in 2008 USA banksasked for 800bln$ otherwise we will fail and without us economy will crash,EU banks came to EBC and told buy from us Pigs cpuntry debts,thay have trouble to pay,if we fail economy will crash,EBC gave them money together with estimated future profit.From that time all that austerity,bailout begin,In fact commercial banks were buying debt for profit on his own risk,so why Eurozone citzens were paying them.In both cases nobody have been asked for citzens agreements

Deutche  Bank is EU leader in EU together with Royal Bank of Scotland.Libor scandal,money laundering etc

Catalunia,there is local election in Spain combined with referndumto stay or leave,Madid is saying it is iligal but catalunian dont care anymore what frauded Madrid is saying

I didn't say to throw them behind bars, I just said their policy over the last 7 months is a complete failure. I don't know how many people actually know that Greece has avoided to go bankrupt during the last 3 months by ceasing the government's payments inside the country. And of course know Greece has its hands tied but who is really responsible for this? Are the Europeans to blame for the leaving of 30bn out of the banks during this year or for the new recruitments in the public sector and the incomplete execution of the state budget? Back in December Greece was neither in need of a bank recapitalization nor of a so tight fiscal policy in order to keep its primary surplus in the same levels. The vulnerability of Greek economy to the political goals of the Europeans(Spanish elections etc.) is a result of the lack of realistic strategy by A. Tsipras.

It's all a big scam. Friends bankers give money to corrupt politicians and then make laws to collect.

I also think he just wants the best for the Greek citizens and doesn't have any hidden, evil agenda like some conspiracy theory guys like to think. But let's be realistic, he should have know from the start that he wouldn't be able to get away with it. He should have know that if he wants to avoid the austerity measures, he has to man up and take the huge risk of leaving the Eurozone.

Agreed that the political decision making failure was a big reason why Greece is in a mess right now, along with other factors which brought Greece to how things are now. Politicians are the legal representative chosen by people, and those people put their trust on his decisions so that means that even if the decisions aren't completely correct, everybody has to deal with the consequences. I don't think so he is having any fun when he has to go through 6-7 hour long conference meetings to discuss Greece's policy. And I hope you don't think its a conspiracy.

Bad debt from Greece is the price paid by Germany in exchange for its dominance in the European Union. The European Union is a project by the Germans, to bring the idea of Fourth Reich to life. If Germany wants to dominate the Europe, then they have to pay a price for that. Greece is not going to be the last one. There will be plenty more. Be prepared.  ;D

Once upon a time was the hate of the Germans for Jewish. It was horrible and the end of war began from Germans marked even the end of this kind of antisemitism. In our days, when racism is condemned by the civilized people i see another horrible writing that testify the infertility of thoughts and a new racizm. German are leaders in Europe in everything. Their economy is leader because they are workers people. They don't want to dominate but they are leaders by their work. They cannot grace the money for which they had sweaty to have to a lazy people which falsificate their data since the beginning to enter in European Union and then again and again to take credits in order to increase their salaries without working. And the end to be "proud" to vote no to not give their debt to the owners.

It's funny ... as were some wealthy gentlemen thieves money from all over Europe and people are still trying to analyze the situation as mathematically.
These gentlemen were expelled from Latin America or South America and have come with money to do the same thing there. It is so difficult to assume that a few rich are allied with corrupt politicians to rob citizens? And if not, can someone tell me why in Spain the rich, now with crises they are 40% more wealthy than before? Where is the famous flight of capital?

I haven't ever seen people as lazy as Greeks. They open their shops 2-3 times a week, for a limited time. (mostly afternoons of course, too lazy to wake up early) They don't give a shit if the customer really needs something from their store, they don't give a damn about money. They know their big cousins will feed them forever. (In this case they are Germany and France)

Don't get confused, It is not the Greek people who are poor at the moment, It is the government.

Time to meet with long working hours, low salaries, high taxes. But if I was a Greek guy, still i wouldn't give a crap. Let Germans think about my mess.

 ;D

Spain has already had its fair share of economic problems, its rather recovering now. An economic growth of 0.9 has been reported for the first quarter of 2015, I remember. Also, unemployment is falling in spain. Nearly half a million cars were also sold this year which is the record high sales there, the last time that happened was in 2010. Even mortgage activity continues to increase in spain, because they escaped their economic problems now.

I can't really blame this Government for everything as they inherited the Country in a big mess anyway, so they being blamed for everything isn't fair at all. When the peeps all said we don't want austerity but we wanna stay in the Euro what was Tsipras meant to do? Now the hardcore left are lobbying for a grexit and a return to the Drachma, you just can't please everyone..For me we should have grexited in January but then you would have the majority of peeps up in arms because they wanted to stay in the Euro..From the fire into the frying pan, Tsipras whatever he does just can't please anyone because the people want it all, not to pay the debt, not want austerity and stay in the Euro..It just can't happen.. You either exit the Euro and work the ass off rebuilding the country or stay in the Euro and try to negotiate and collect whatever crumbs you can.. I don't blame Tsipras at all, he has done his best with what he has to work with.

But we're 1.2 trillion and rising, more indebted Greece. But it will brown eat "Boliviaranos" ... Growth economic is false, like all what comes out of the mouth of a government that has half of the workforce in jail for stealing or investigated for it. A shame

Very good. An excellent example of what happen if the people is responsible and understand that only the WORK can save everything. Can get out from the crisis and maybe later even can give prosperity. Maybe needed time that they passes all their problems but the signs are good. They didn't do some referendum to not give the debt to their owners but put down their head, sweated their forehead and created value. That mean money. And are enjoyed the fruits.

You can call growth economics false but you cannot falsify the math. Numbers say things how they are.


The only way people can help their country is by eliminating corruption out of its roots. If the country decides to take risks and put things on the line for the people of the country, people must back the country with good support. The riches in Spain did not escape the country but invested their money which brought back positive gains into the country.

I agree with you. But corruption is only one of the the worst things that can happen to one nation. Because scour every good thing arrived with try and sweat. But is not the only. Another very big important thing is that people must understand that everything begin with the work. Without work cannot go nowhere. If the people are lazy and want that everything maked itself then nothing will arrive. Nothing will be achieved.

So in summary work makes you free. Arbeit macht frei.

The question is, if Greece managed to leave euro, that could mean other countries which are also in debt can also follow suit and do the same. Eventually when more countries follow the same action, it can only mean that the whole union will collapse. These has been projected to happen for some time now and I see no other solution.

Well put, every day greece is still in the euro the damage to the union increases.

Greek can no longer service its debt, which is now 200% of GDP, european partners are on the hook for billions now.

Its a downward spiral for greece, there intrest payments alone are crippling them


But what do you do, you kick greece out, then Italy and Spain will be out right behind them, both are in as much of a state as greece in reality, spanish and italian banks took a kicking from which they still aint recovered.

My vote is the EU crubles in the next 10 years, and with Member states like Britan, Ireland and Holland all seeking to renegotatie there terms in relation to the EU.


At this point, greece should be likened to pandora's box, right now its just a bottom less pit from which there will soon be no escape

The very reason why Euro is still funding Greece and taking a hit on its finances is that if Greece leaves, so does other important countries which seem like a liability but actually are the asset to Eurozone, and the reason why Greece is still in Eurozone is because Greece knows exactly what's in store for them when they go independent and they're getting attention because of their geographical position, nothing else.

The Greece must resolve first its political problems now. With the new political configuration Tsipras may not be more in power or must be in coalition with parties that are much more Europeans and inclined to do much more concessions. This will means much more diverse policy. Greece might go in diverse directions...

Exactly.  I dont see how when debt (and overspending) was their problem in the first place, how more debt could possibly help the situation at all?  As they say they are just "kicking the can down the road" and hoping the problem solves itself.  Well it wont, and things surely will be worse for the Greeks the next time around

Basically all the country in the world are facing the same problem, but all the other countries can kick the can down the road almost forever since they just create their own money and lend to themselves to pay back the old debt and repeat and repeat ... If Greece central bank can create euro and lend to their government, they will look as good (or bad) as US, Japan etc...

The only way for Greece to get out of current trouble is create their own money, if euro is not allowed, then drachma. Of course there will be inflation and so on, but they will never face the pressure from outside. US government also shutdown some times but it never hurts

Like i see Greece now,it will be better for them to comeback for Drachma,but thay need to preper his economy for that,itcant bedone just overnight,not so much easy,but to stay with Euro is death end

...

Just because most people are looking at CHINA now does not mean Greece & Europe have gone away.

Greece's continuing problems are still a big problem for the rest of Europe, which has its own other problems as well (ref. Zero Hedge article on crashing ocean container rates from China to Europe). 

Germany is likely suffering lower exports to China, but I have not read anything about that yet.  China is a BIG customer of German machinery.  And luxury car sales (also cratering in China).

But, China, for now anyway, is still the bigger story. 

Maybe you are right and maybe not. There are to many public people who defend one or the other way. Personally think that drachma will be a drama for the Greeks. They will see their currency devaluated  50-60 immediately and go in hell half of their money. And this is only the minimum....

Greece will get up. It gets stimulus from IMF.

Greece have to do a lot of money to IMF. This is the first thing. IMF cannot do nothing if Greece don't get back that money to them. The second thing is that IMF cannot decide for itself. There are European Union and Central European Bank that must accord with those.

If Greece leaves Euro; Countries like Spain, Porteguese and Ireland will follow them. That results complete destruction of (so called) "Euro Dream"

You are wrong.IMF didnt join bailout yet,IMF condition was Greece debt reduction,talk about it will be in October propably with neww Greece governament

From current bailout Greece didnt get nothing.26 bln euro went to pay debt to EBC,about 13 bln went to Greece banks capitalisation and rest to pay Greece past bills

There is still capital control in Geece,deeper recession and poverty and more and more imigrants
Nothing can changed for better in people of Greece life
many Greeks business is now escaping to Bulgaria

If anything I feel like they are going to be dropped out for the euro.

And then end becoming like venezula, where there is zimbawae currency and its value is next to nothing if they have no production.

Can anyone catch me up here...has there been any momentum of the Greeks of any type (Rich/Poor/Famous/Gov't Talk) or anything on BTC movement
since the crisis has happened or have we lost ground with the Greeks on any crypto movement of even a small amount of improvement (ie like Venezuela and BTC)

Just wondering...probably the reason I have heard nothing because there is nothing being said...but then again maybe native Greek speakers or such have
heard (hopefully) some momentum from this EU/Euro fiasco and at least folk are kicking around the idea of crypto more then before the EU shutdown stuff.

For the moment those are only words. The situation in those countries is to much different from the Greece. First of all their all have an economy which produce; so able to pay the debt. In different of the Greece who the only economy is the tourism; If the people want to go to the beach Greece have money. If not, no money.

Greece was doing pretty alright before their failure to deliver the debt amount, most of their economy was being fueled by the money made from tourism. A lot of people question how can a country survive on money based solely on tourism to which a perfect example could be Singapore, they are not in debt but rather have excess funds in their treasure box ;) Tourism brings all that crazy amount of money, making Singapore one of the best countries to be involved in business with.

You're in big wrong my friend. Singapore is much more than an economy represented only in tourism. I invite you to read only a few words about the economy of Singapore taken from Wikipedia:

Singapore is a world leader in several economic areas: The country is the world's fourth leading financial centre,[123] the world's second largest casino gambling market,[124] one of the world's top three oil-refining centres, the world's largest oil-rig producer, and a major hub for ship repair services.[125][126][127] The World Bank has named Singapore as the easiest place in the world to do business,[124] and ranks Singapore the world's top logistics hub.[128] The 4th edition of the Global Green Economy Index™ (GGEI) revealed that expert practitioners ranked Singapore the 7th greenest city in the world.[129]

In April 2013, for the first time, Singapore surpassed Japan in average daily foreign-exchange trading volume with $383 billion per day. So the rank became: the United Kingdom (41%), the United States (19%), Singapore (5.7)%, Japan (5.6%) and Hong Kong (4.1%).[130]

Singapore's economy depends heavily on exports and refining imported goods, especially in manufacturing,[131] which constituted 27% of the country's GDP in 2010, and includes significant electronics, petroleum refining, chemicals, mechanical engineering and biomedical sciences sectors. In 2006, Singapore produced about 10% of the world's foundry wafer output.[132] Singapore has a diversified economy, a strategy that the government considers vital for its growth and stability despite its size.[133]

So no far comparison between Greece and Singapore.

China is big Greece is small,More easy to get for markets that what thay want in acase of China
German luxury cars,Germans cars sells is 7% down,why,becouse i see here very nice Chinise Volvo, V40 is really nice,chinise but made in Sweden,many diffrent kind of volvo,many dillers,many service points

And Saab,man i saw on the street luxury Saab,designe from best itlan designers,in style of a little like old time,that car was not riding,that car was flying,any mercedes and BMW has no chance to compate,Chinise Saab done in Sweden,best mark

I ve been listening in Polish radio interview with polish etno rock singer.He was invited to China by owner of major Chinise music company.He brought her by car from airport by car.That car was Volvo.

And now chinise automakers will begin sales of chinise cars,made in China

I can also add that Hindu Tatha will produce in Slovakia luxury Jaguar,legend between cars
competition,but newswill be lessgermanscarsales becouse of China crash

China will propably slowdown a little,but it is normal cycly,paranoid westerness mass media  will support economy armagedon

...

Pab

I will certainly be interested to hear how Chinese cars are accepted into European markets.  I do understand that if *might* be easier for China to grab some low-end car sales in Greece (cheap cars), but I still would be interested to hear from ANYONE re acceptance of Chinese cars in their markets.

Chinese cars started showing up in Peru maybe some four years ago.  Cheap but low quality.  Counting buses and trucks, there are some 80 brands in Peru alone...  Chinese car manufacturers bloodbath soon?

*   *   *

HarHarHar

My understanding is that Singapore has a huge oil refining industry and is one of the top two or three transshipment ports in the world.  They also have carved out something of a niche in secret banking, although with capital controls all over the world, I do not know how that effort is going.

Hi my favourite thread on btctalk,there is nice to talk with you here

Some time ago Chinise have bought Volvo,Swedish car maker,Great mark,wondeful cars ,very strong and very safe

It was some shock for Swedish people,but thay said ,wewill never sell Saab,Saab is even better,famous becouse of Rally,same great mark and cars

Than Chinise bought Saab also,thay have investedsome money in both mark and voila ,You have made in sweden chinise cars,best possible,germans cant block sales of both mark,no against chinise

But now i know Chinise will produce in Europe some hi scars.Not big problem,Korean Kia and Hyundai are in Europe from years


Singapore i dont know so much,it is specific area,with many smart business people,mostly Chinse orgin.Singapore is some how window bridge to China,also thay are related to Australia

People you are going out of everything with these posts. Here must be talk about Greece and not about China, Singapore, Korea, Sweden or Moon and Sun. It is in vain write about those nations in a thread open about the crisis in Greece. So attention and mind in what you write.

n2004al

I think it is fair to write about other countries and how they may relate to Greece or its financial conditions.  Many lessons can be learned by looking at other's experiences.

Greece may be looking at a Venezuela-style catastrophe (I don't KNOW that, but it might be).  There are other countries that share some of Greece's problems, and we can look at their actions and results.

So, yes, this thread is about Greece.  But, relatively little has happened there in the past few days that we can really analyze.  So, IMO, it is OK to look at other situations that have some similarities with Greece as well as items like Chinese cars that *might* be coming to Greece.  And don't fool yourself, Chinese cars coming to Greece is NOT something that European car makers would welcome...  What would be next?  Chinese cars into Italy and France?  Now you're talking jobs lost.

Greece is also a lesson and a warning to the rest of Europe.  Greece may be leading the way re Europe, the immigration crisis there is affecting Greece a lot (along with Hungary, etc.).

Greece and the context of how Greece fits into the larger financial system is fair game IMO on this thread.

You are right. the other experiences count but at the posts I am referring there is nothing that can help of can be as a experience for Greece. I will post you here some of the thoughts that are totally out of the needed experience for Greece:

1. I will certainly be interested to hear how Chinese cars are accepted into European markets.  I do understand that if *might* be easier for China to grab some low-end car sales in Greece (cheap cars), but I still would be interested to hear from ANYONE re acceptance of Chinese cars in their markets.

How can help Greece this thought to leave the crisis. There are no money for eating there and we are talking about buying Chinese cars.

2. Some time ago Chinise have bought Volvo,Swedish car maker,Great mark,wondeful cars ,very strong and very safe.

You think that Greece have money to buy Volvo or some else trademark of cars? And you think that this is the solution for the crisis of Greece?

3. But now i know Chinise will produce in Europe some hi scars.Not big problem,Korean Kia and Hyundai are in Europe from years.

I'm struggling my mind to find the connection between this thought with the crisis in Greece, Can you? And can you find how this will help the Greeks to solve their crisis?

I can find to many thoughts like those. And those are the reason of my post.

 So sorry for of topic,lets back to Greece and imigration problem,not so many people know that during last 10 years

about 1,5 mln imigrants from North Africa arrive dto Greece,about 150000 that year,more are coming.All of them have found his new home in Greece,Greeks didnt divide them in Islam people and Chretiene people.There was warning statment of UN to Greeks,that thay have to create refugee camps otherwise thay can experience humanitarian catastrophe.Greece answer was ok but wedont have money we have to wait for EU policy.Evrybody are blaming Greece but Greece didnt get even single penny from EU to help imigrants

My understanding of the Brussels Agreement may be way-off here, but IIRC, then the FIRST country a migrant hits in Europe has to take them in.  Which of course is grossly unfair to Greece.  They are on the "border" of Europe, and so Greece receives more than its share of migrants.

Italy once threatened the rest of Europe (a few years ago) to just put new migrants on trains straight to Germany and France if they did not get any financial (or other real) help.  I don't know how that turned out.  Italy DOES have plenty of migrants, and LOTS of Italians do not like their Arab and African migrants.

It is only fair that ALL of Europe pick up the tab if they want Greece, Italy and Spain to host newly arriving migrants.

 I can tell you that 1.5 mln imigrants is from past 10 years.Initaly there is planty of Senegali people,but i ve been in Italy first time  in 1992and there was already planty of them.Now is new situation becouse people are escaping from wars.Syria,Erythrea etc.1.5 mln new citzens in 10 mln people country.
Look EU hypocrysy,there isa lot news how Germany is nowcalling for European solidarity how Germany is welcoming imigrants,sure many of them will find his new home in Germany,but Germany is big country and wealthy.There is in fact big demographic crisis in Europe and those  imigrants can help solve that crisis.Now Greece has open his border and imigrantsare moving from Greece to more wealthy European countries.There isstill no common EU policy what will help to solve problem with imigration .Many  political forces are trying to get political capital on imigraton problems.Nationalism .anti islam mixed with terroristic fear
Already in Germany refugee houses for imigrants has been burn.Fortunetly Europe  still remember dark nazi time
and there is strong citzens respond  for that kind of actions
Europe and world need to find solution to stop wars,there is also climat change and disastear in Europe.There was not serious rain in Poland and south of Spain for almost all summer and temperature was extremely hot.No water in rivers,everything is burn by sun.Food,water crisis can be next big issue in all over the world

Well Greece can only pay if the interest rates on the loan are lowered and the debt is totally restructured and shaved off enough in order for the GDP of Greece to rise and produce more surplus in order for it to be paid off, Otherwise at present the debt cannot be sustained in it's present force with one million servants being a burden on the national budget and one out of tow youngsters being unemployed and the rich keep evading their taxes and not investing in their country.

Governing should be about democracy, say economists
Letter from 17 economist to Britain and EU

Yanis Varoufakis is among signatories to a letter asking Britain and the EU to sign up to a nine-point UN code putting democratic rights – and not the market – at the heart of international governance

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/sep/08/governing-should-be-about-democracy-say-economists (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/sep/08/governing-should-be-about-democracy-say-economists)
What will be effect of that letter what you think

Well, I do not know what the answers are to put Greece right.

But, systemic corruption (= worse than average Western Corruption) is, and has been for a long time, very bad there.  They manufacture very little in Greece.

And if I were a rich Greek, I would not want to pay outrageous taxes to support a worthless government soaking me for my money, doing nothing positive with it (other than, of course, enriching government employees, cronies and favored contractors).

I suspect that Greece has a long and hard road before becoming anything like prosperous.

My opinion, I have not been to Greece, nor am I an "expert" (expert opinions are worth not much more than any of ours though).

You know all this greece, talk is there a website countdown with the live feed of trail showing how much they owe.

And what something that shows a metric of how many years it would take lol. Also if the website had like a countdown of how many days left before greece riots 24/7.

And this is the big wrong thought you have. The payment of the taxes serve to give you all the services your states give to you. The police, the army, the order, all the public services without those you can do nothing in your country are paid with the taxes. If all will think like you the country and the Greece for the first will go further in chaos. Those thoughts (partially) led Greece in the situation in which is.

Greece is only doing this for more money. They will never be able to pay it back. They will probably be kicked out from Euro Zone too.

I agree with this your post. Even me think that Greece will not be able to pay its debt if it is not be restructured. But I think that after some reforms this debt will be restructured and Greece will be able to work and to try to pay his debt.

Wow China bought Volvo? that's sad to see, Volvo cars were so robust and trusted. I guess it will turn into a pile of shit just like all China manufactured stuff. And even if its not manufactured stuff I assume they will find ways to make cost of production cheaper, ruining the brand.

 That Volvo and Saab are still done in Sweden,at least these produced on Eurpean market
But back to Greece,look like Greeks are doing,itcould be good example to all of us

Barter Economy with local currency


http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-08-14/greeks-flock-grassroots-alternative-currencies-affront-euro-debt-slavery (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-08-14/greeks-flock-grassroots-alternative-currencies-affront-euro-debt-slavery)

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-07-29/complete-collapse-greece-reverts-barter-economy-first-time-nazi-occupation (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-07-29/complete-collapse-greece-reverts-barter-economy-first-time-nazi-occupation)

and below not only about Greece but about Barter

http://time.com/money/3962944/bartering-guide/ (http://time.com/money/3962944/bartering-guide/)


I can tell you that Barter was very popular in red regime time.both iin soviet union satelaite countrys and USSR
it was very spontenous barter

I think Barter will have great future now

The barter is a old system which have no future. The fact that now is used only in the poor country or country without importance for non importance things demonstrate this. If Greece will adopt this system will not resolve nothing. Creditors want money and barter don't give money but good or services.

 I dont care of creditors,Barter has great future together with digital currency use,crowdfunding peer to peer lending
Barter with digital currency will help Greece economy,
you can look at news from Spaign
over 1.5 mln people on the street for Catalunia independence

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/11/catalonia-pro-independence-rally-barcelona-spain (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/11/catalonia-pro-independence-rally-barcelona-spain)

USA is death in Europe there is change

You don't care about creditors but you are no one for those. We are talking about Greece. And Greece are made everything to have their money. Then I don't see nothing to do with Catalunia and with the independence of Catalunia in a thread which talk about the debt and the problem of Greece. Greece has told clear that don't want the independence from the European Union with the referendum. To not speak about the other things you wrote. So I don't see similarity in your words with the topic which are discussed there.

Can you explain better please why barter with digital currency will help Greece economy?

According to the latest opinion polls, SYRIZA is going to become the largest party in the elections next weeks, but they will be some 25 to 30 seats short of the majority mark. Even a coalition with ANEL and Potami is unlikely to give them the majority. So what next? A SYRIZA - New Democracy coalition government? That will be a disaster for Greece.

Whatever coalition will be in Greece will be the same. The road of Greece is traced and cannot be changed. So every government of every coalition will made the same things. Those that will tell EU+IMF+CBE. There are not other movements that can be done.

I agree, the only way to save Greece is to shave the debt but IMF won't let that happen.

Wrong. IMF it is the only of the three factors (European Union and European Central Bank) which agree this option. The other two don't. But I think that soon or later and after some radical reforms the debt of Greece will be restructured.

Well, if the EU still tries to loan to Greece, they will never be able to repay anything, as the interest gets you more dept. And if Greece is in danger, then the Euro will be too. Euro has fallen badly last two years.
One of the solutions is actually kick Greece out of the EU or GIVE them money to rebuild their country. If Greece can rebuild, then the worth of Euro would be stable again.

This is the intention. To give them money to rebuild the country. But only if that money go really in that direction. Because all the war made from Tsipras these last months was for giving the money for the thing that Tsipras wanted to do. Without restructuring the structure of economy in Greece no one money will solve nothing.

Well if what i've researched is correct, there is a treaty that basically says no country outside of the EU can kick a country that's inside the EU, so they can't kick Greece outside of the EU, it's just not a possibility that they can get away with.

This is like trying to restructure the debt of someone who owes 1 Billion, earns $50,000 they will NEVER be able to pay even the interest.

greece will pay. it just needs to take its time. :D

The loaning with Greece is dragged to a hugely long term plan of repayment. Through this and extremely low interest rates the economy is supposed to be given a chance to breathe and that's what optimists in Greece are counting on now. All around I'm seeing people believing that it can't really get much worse and that the economy will slowly rebound. I'd really hope that'd be the case but I'm hesitant too. Greece has insignificant production when compared to it's EU counterparts and on top of that, unemployment rates that are extremely high as well as a faulty educational system.

To hope that Greece will suddenly start doing better, Greece needs some time to breathe. And that time won't come with more loans. The terms of near-term repayment need to be loosened, exceeding austerity has only proven to damage the economy. It's sad that the institutions try to push for more. It only leads to Greece needing more loans.

Not possible. Don't have the necessaries resources. They can do everything that they be able but don't have the resources. It has been told even by IMF. The debt of Greece is unsustainable. I think that after radical reforms made from the Greeks this debt will be restructured even Germany or other some satellite country now are against this. It is not possible other solution if the EU will want that Greece come out from its disastrous situation.

They will pay or ww3 is not very hard to follow, anyway they will pay just need some time.