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Interesting rumors on imminent introduction of antminer S7 'lite" hashing at 3.5 Th
Speculate on price...
My take: ~3.5 BTC initially ($1000), eventually down to 3 BTC.

Here's a repeat on my speculation as to how they achieve 3.5TH


On the price I think they will want to head off the B-Eleven which I think we will see for a one off price of 3BTC, $850. So  given that they will beat BW.com to market with a 3TH Miner I think that Biodom is on the money.  :)

Rich

Links please.

Here's where I read it.


Rich

Lee is a major hoster in China so he gets okay info.

i also doubt that he would have posted that without permission; it looked like an approved info leak.

Thanks much appreciated. I wonder when released if the price would cause S7 price on Hashnest to tank. I have been waiting to buy S7 but not at the current premium demanded by sellers.

I don't know on this.  If you read any NDA is this game this is covered as info you cannot give out.  I would be very surprised if it was approved.

Is there any reason on him leaking is he out of current S7's?  I'm guessing his info is ok as-well but I think there was a bushiness reason he released it now with a timeline when no one else has said a peep.

I just cannot see a "approved leak".  I do like that the info came out but he is braver then I for leaking and chances are having a NDA with them.

Au contraire, i can easily see that. In fact, their competition (BW) just posted an interview where they claimed 0.87BTC/Th (or even per the 3.3 TH machine, which i think was a misquote as the price difference would be too big) for 1ph orders. Leaking some info without an official announcement is a perfect way to reduce the competitor hype without truly committing to any hard numbers. A trial baloon, if you will, aimed to reduce the competitors pre-orders (which are actually going on right now until Nov 11).
Besides, leaking now is harmless with regards to the current situation as there are no miners to purchase.

I always think most actions have a reason behind them.  If you look now the "source" bought 3PH he say's in avalon and want's to sell cloud mining

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=934581.msg12777226#msg12777226

So I suspect in coming day's there is a order he will do on cloud, and try to push antminer to a 2nd in sales compared to his cloud.   Which if you read he does not want to part out as he say's a RPI can control 60 units.

But we all know a RPI can be bought for 35 bucks and they could easily be parted.  So ... look at it on day's coming and you will see reason.  I mean it works out good for us since we got likely good info, but always a reason.

Edit noticed he said they ship on "31th Oct" so that gives him a shot at selling cloud before the Nov 10 date he said on the bitmain new S7.   So likely we will see a push for sales of the cloud during that time period.   

if that would be really the price, it would be very good with 900w consumption, and only half of the investment of his big brother, bu still with 3/4 of the power

i think they can still release another version with half the power and 1/3 of the cost

Two chips per node instead of three would require a new PCB, not just not populating those chips. BM1385 relay comms from one chip to the next so leaving out a single chip would disable every chip downstream from it - which in a string configuration means current ceases to flow in the circuit so even the first chips which are getting work data are starved for power and do not work.

Regarding Avalon, if the 6 works like the 4.1, it would suck to part them out because the machines are actually daisy-chained on an SPI bus. About every dozen machines or so (I forget the exact numbers) will be on a common bus to a USB adapter to the Pi. Parting out individual machines would mean having to stock additional USB adapters and such, and having to verify with the customer what the installation would be and how many accessory parts would be needed to get them all talking. It's not as simple as just tossing in an additional Pi.

Agreed. The "obvious" way to get 3.5TH is as I said above.



My concern is as stated. The 2 chips / node did not solve the problem either. I was just think typing  :)

Rich

If it's nice and balanced speed vs noise, then ok!

Otherwise give me s7++

I doubt noise is a factor on it.  I'm hoping they keep a full case design even though it's a little higher.

My biggest fear is to see something like S5 with two blade in a plastic sided no full case device.  Not sure what to expect on the new version.

Do we have any sources on this rumor.  I have people that also would like this to be confirmed or denied.


-D

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=934581.msg12769055#msg12769055

Honestly, nobody knows how accurate this is, hence it is 'rumors" in "speculation" rubric, NOT in hardware.

As a source it should be pretty accurate.  If he truly was in a town purchasing 3PH of power I'm sure he would have talked to bitmain and avalon as it sounds he did.

The date of Nov 10th was thrown around so guess we just have to wait to see if Bitmain really did make such a big move.  I suspect from reading thread he has avalon cloud he talks about for sell before this Nov 10th date.   But guess we will have to wait and see.   

I will LOL so badly!

Any point for this miner will be to be quiet! other wise.... i don't really care :)

I like the comparison.

the lost generation: s1-s5, Sp10-30, av up to 4.1, asicminer (RIP), cointerra (RIP), knc (withdrew from selling)
the greatest generation-S7, bw?, av6 plus gekkoscience's sticks/pods
the silent generation-SP50?
baby boomers-will come after the halving, will be vast in numbers if price cooperates and employ improved 14/16nm for up to 0.05-0.07J/Gh. Network>1exahash.

bitfury is omnipresent, but invisible. I would call it "dark matter" or "dark energy"  ;D

This assertion seems reasonable.

 Should be a way for Bitmain to bypass 1 or 2 chips on the circuit board per string, might need a small amount of glue logic in addition to required jumpers at worst, so they can run a couple chips less per string, run 2 boards instead of 3, and get 3.5TH out of the existing board design.

 Or they could just aim at 3.2 TH with 2 of the existing boards.


 I suspect the November 10 date is related to when Avalon plans to release the 6 - perhaps Bitmain feels the need to preempt upcomming competiton?

I will stick with my original and the most obvious thought that they go from 3 boards to 2. No new design or testing needed, parts are common across all S7 variants and a significant cost reduction.

The only "problem" with this was that the maths did not add up to 3.5TH unless you clocked at 650MHz, at which point V Core would be a bit low and given the problems they seem to have had at 600MHz seemed unlikely.

So my best current guess is that the 3.5TH rumour is slightly off and that it will be a 2 Board 3.1TH - 3.2TH S7 lite.


Rich

I guess we will have to wait and see  ;D

Me too. the S7 is just out of reach for me so something a touch smaller would be perfect

I'm not worried about the size.  But if they can make one out of 2 blades for cheaper and make it better price per hash... i will be a fan.

I want as much hash as I can get for my money.   Guess we see what we really get.  It is interesting all this happened after kinda leak of avalon 6.

still too big for my taste, it's only 1/4 less bigger, they should aim for 1/2 at least

for those that can't run a big miner in their home, and want to do only occasional mining activity

If the price was right I think it's a great size. If you compare with 2 x S5 that I run at the moment, you can go from 2.3GH/s for 1180W to 3.5GH/s for 850W in half the space. You can't ask better than that.  :)

Although I guess they could do a single board one, perhaps integrate the PSU where the second board is and have 1.6GH/s for 425W?


Rich

 Doubt there's much profit available for them in a single hash board miner. Still gotta have a frame, controller, and fan - and that would make it very difficult to impossible for them to keep the price/TH competative.

 It would actually be 1/3'd less presuming the "2 hash board of current design instead of 3" concept is what they pick.

 "integrate the PSU" is not a good idea, way too many variations on size for PS used to power miners.

 I suspect folks wanting a "small" miner are going to have to wait for whatever comes out of the Gekkoscience projects - and hopefully SOMEONE will start being willing to sell them chips on a reasonable basis soon in current-gen chips.

Depends on price of it I think.  Some hated it but I always had good luck with S4's. I loved that it was all in one.   Just the ease of use to be sit it up with no plugging in or doing really anything is nice.

But I agree like on my S5+ where it was a heck of a lot of PCIe cords it's nice that I could pick out the PSU's.   Makes it pretty nice on that miner.

I would prefer a smaller perhaps 1/3 version of the S7 see Should Bitmain make a Q7? (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1165938.0) .  But a 2/3rds version S7 is progress.  ;D

Ooooh this would be awesome!!!!

$1000 might still be out of the price range :S, :(, but who knows maybe not when I get bonous.

If the S6 number of $1300 for 3.65 TH is correct, $1000 likely won't be in the cards. Unless of course Bitmain has "too many S7" sitting around (highly unlikely IMHO).

You sound like a philosopher stop waffling.

the quoted price is from the reseller, which tends to be higher, besides, avalon always tried to maintain a premium-see 4.1 prices.
we shall see.

I would hope so, and I also have hopes for a nice coupon for those who ordered b2/b3 late (say, after 10/15) IF they would decrease per Th price substantially for S7 lite.

Very little chance of coupon.  I don't see them changing on it.  The B1 compensation was pretty crappy, they did not sound like coupons would come.

So best chance is price is good on coins and they don't jack up price.  And then you can order.  But coupon don't count on.

Did you actually receive B1 compensation?

I paid: 0.662  BTC for S5+ and 3 PSU's.  But the psu's were sent at a lower weight then actual was..... so I had to pay UPS more as bitmain shipped at lower declared weight.  It was not horrible though like 15 more dollars or something.

Worst miner I have had was Dragon 1.5T..... that thing is truly a tank.  It was around 50 pounds or so, so quite rediclous.  I can't remember what I paid on it I shopped all around to save buyer money and found a decent price us to us in 5-7 days I think it was on some carrier.   Like 3 day's on it was like 150-200 or something so was insane.

Not sure on DHL they are worst one for me as I live at edge of the drivers route... causes many problems.

Does anybody know when the S7 Lite or scaled down S7 suppose to come out ? or in fact more S7's

 

This is what the source said:


No one really knows if that is true or not.  We will see in not to long hopefully.

now that i'm looking to it, i doubt that it will cost half of its big brother, it does not make sense, everyone would buy this instead

i would guess 3/4 of the price of a standard s7, since this is 3/4 in power

It will actually be 2/3 of the Power, however I am hoping it will be around $1000. It will then have to respond to releases by Avalon & BW.com which will hopefully pull it down?


Rich

It's kind of funny that when I have coin to spend there's nothing actually for sale "new."

http://s4.postimg.org/3ujlgxspp/Capture.png

Is this real or fake ? if its real which I doubt the specs are awesome and great competition for BITMAIN so they lower there price.


https://www.bw.com/pool/miner

the company is real and has been around a while.  not sure what it sells for

same power use about .26  for  them vs .25 for bitmain

I wish they would go into a tad more detail like Avalon.  I want to know if it can underclock.   I really find underclocking to help my ROI long term.   

They gave us enough to get hooked and want more.  But still need a lot of info.

The B-Eleven has not been released yet - it appears to be targeted to be released in December, and all available signs point to it being "real" in the sence that it's being actively worked on by a reputable company and will be "real" and for sale fairly soon.

 Most of the specs seem to be out there except price - current speculation is that the price might be around .87 Bitcoin/TH but there's at least one other post that had the price listed as $500/TH with ZERO reference to where that price came from.

 BW.com is in part owned by Lketc of "Dragon miner" fame, THEY have been around awhile and their equipment has a good reputation for being reliable (but heavy).
 There has been speculation that it will be using the "tapeout announced a few months back" Innosilicon A3 chips, given Lketc's relationship with Innosilicon from the A1 chip days and the similarity of what specs have been announced between the B-Eleven and the A3, but nothing is certain on that front yet AFAIK.

 IMO for any miner to be viable at this point in the .2-.3 watt/TH range, they need to drop the price down to 1BTC OR LESS per TH - as of right now, none of the currently available "new gen" or announced "next gen" miners has a viable chance to achieve RoI if your electric rate is over 3 cents / KWH, and they're all REAL MARGINAL even with 3cent power.

Anybody have the link to this company were I can buy it if it comes out ? not the cloud link the company link ?

It would be here; https://www.bitmaintech.com/product.htm

But it does not exist yet. If you see one and its not announced first, then its a scam. Don't do it.

No one knows for sure.  A big hoster leaked a date along with info of a lite version.  So far he is only person to claim this I think.  But he is very big in hosting so a decent amount of creditability have been given to it, compared to if some random person said it:


Only time will tell if/when it happens.

BW is already pre-selling B-Eleven hash at 0.78 bitcoin per TH/s with 4700 + TH unsold out of 10000 TH. They predict Jan 1, 2016 delivery.

If they sell a physical miner at .78 per TH and are close to january even, they would sell MANY of these.  That is a heck of a price per TH.

Will be intersting to see what happens.  I really want more info about these units.

Kind of a lot of money to throw at a pre-order that may come out way too late. Especially with the current Diff increase. It look like profitability will a drop by quite a bit. Also, is that site even trusted? I never heard of it.

They come from a trusted company LKETC I believe:

BW.com was established in Aug. 2014, co-founded by one of the largest miner manufacturers in the world---LK Group, Ltd and one of the largest exchanges in the world---CHBTC.com. BW is dedicated to providing users a simple, professional, safe and efficient mining platform

LKETC was once very trusted and pumped out ton's of A1's (1T dragons).   But so far there are just renderings... I don't think we have seen a prototype.  I kinda have a rule to not invest on renderings just as it does not prove a whole lot.  I think they will have the miner, and make a massive cloud service.  But january... not sure on if they hit that.

if this is real then it seems that it could be bigger than the s7, because the hashpower it say that is still unknown, from 3 to 10 tera, i doubt it will be 5th as it will be like the s7

and 10th would mean a much greater investment for miners, i hope for 3th

It kinda sound like they came up with a business plan and they don't have any work done beside some sketch and they want money to fund the development. We all know how these things went in the past...

I'd sure like some more steak to the gravy before throwing money that won't earn a cent for a long time, or maybe never.

Based on the posted info, it appears there might be 3 models specificically planned with option to add one or more additional models later - one at appx. 3TH, one at appx. 5TH, and one at appx. 10TH.

 I speculate (based on the renderings posted info) that this might mean one case used with either 1 hashboard, 2 hashboard, or 3/4 hashboard options (the renderings appear to show space for 3, dunno if they can cram 4 in).


 Doesn't seem likely in this case, Lketc has a good rep for delivering on their claims.
 On the other hand, actual miners have NOT gone on presale, just the hashing.

If this was owned by a lesser organisation than LK Group Limited and CHBTC I would agree with you. I think it "will be" real however, there is high risk in the 14nm technology. I think a number of Companies have felt the need to make announcements a bit ahead of when they were fully ready in reaction to the Bitmain S7. So this B-Eleven & the Avalon6 fall into this category.


Rich

I would agree this is not a standard rendering where they are out to scam.  This a big company and released quite a few products in the past.

14nm is going to be interesting if they heat deadlines.   The ones that stayed at 28nm seem to be the current winners.   Avalon if true at all on timeframe we should see it in a few weeks.  But we all know how some products can be on deadlines. 

I find it interesting that avalon 6 and new rumored new s7 are so close together in time frames.    One could have did a announcement to effect others sales. Its quite a cut throat business.

Agreed there may well be longer term rewards, just saying that at this point in time it carries risk, and could delay availability. They may be playing their cards close the their chest but having a TBD on the number of chips does make you wonder where they are with the development?

At the moment if I was Bitmain with a tried & tested 28nm Fully Custom shipping at premium price, and no doubt with 14nm in development I would be feeling quite comfortable.  :)

Rich

I think you hit part of a important detail. Bitmain did a 28 nm on S7 and perfected the 28 nm, which made it easier to produce.   And chances are higher profit per chip.

I have no doubt they have a 14nm dev ongoing, but I don't think we will hear a peep from them on lower NM till someone else comes out with one.  For all we know BM has a 14nm ready to go.   They have a massive amount of cash flow so there is not a lot out of their reach.

I bet if they do have 14nm they keep it top secret and only very trusted employees.   We have seen NDA from big datacenter does not always hold them:


True or not we don't know yet.  But he is only one to leak this data, and no doubt had NDA.  There are always those who have reasons on releasing data, so even with NDA it's not perfect.

I'm not saying its a scam, i'm saying we all know how pre-order work out. You pay now because its a good price now and then when you do get it, its worthless because the market changed too much since then.

And seeing how quick BTC went up and how much difficulty raise we're looking at, it could just easily go down by the time these hit the door.

Mine was terrahash long long ago.  Looked great and even had a prototype... .but it fell apart before final product.  I was lucky I use paypal.

I'm rather suprised they scammed a lot of money and we really never hear a lot about them.  Like 2-3 sued but don't know if they got money or not back.

gear has to show fast or don't bother.

hell with current price of coin at 360 usd  s-3's are good gear again.

I am kinda kicking myself. I got rid of my S4's when it was at 230's.  I just was not making much compared to sell price, and was afraid of newer miners pushing down price.

So they would be much more profitable now then they were when I sold them.  A ROI is a ROI.... but I hate knowing there was more I could have gotten.  I'm not perfect i guess :).

 I suspect Bitmain is working to go straight to full custom on 14/16nm, as KnC and BitFury have already ANNOUNCED 14 or 16nm chips with full-custom level stats.
 IIRC KnC has announced their "Solar" chips are in actual production (though their slow hash growth indicates some major yield issues).
 IIRC BitFury has announced tapeout on their 14nm, but no production yet.

 On the other hand, nobody is selling 14/16nm to end users yet, just to themselves and possibly major farms.

Also SFards say's they are back: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=985400.1600

So there could be some of those if they do what they are talking about.  Lot's of companies and lots of unknowns.

So much for this theory BITMAIN just posted two new batches 4 and 5 of the S7 and I don't see a S7 lite. so is this theory hogwash ?

This one could go either way, however rumoured release date was the 10th.


Rich

We do not know how accurate his info is. I thought accurate at first.  But his latest leak on price on S7 in bulk does not add up since it's cheaper to buy S7 as a regular customer then what he claims a 1 PH customer gets.

So I'm losing faith in the info that was leaked.

I very much hope the fact come through because i could really use a S7 lite right now. Right now buying a full S7 is a bit iffy considering how much money you're putting in limbo for a minimum of 1 month, since the shipping is not due for one month. =/

I don't know how sure I am of his info.   He said a price that was higher if you bought 1  PH then if you just bought 1 miner per T.  So either a typo or miscommunication or something.

But it makes me wonder on his leaks when the price did not add up right on one of them.

I would like the rumour to be true, a 2 board 3.5TH lower priced S7 makes a lot of sense. Looking back at the original source it has a low key matter of fact ring of truth to it .


However... if you look at the detail the maths never did add up to a 2 Board 3.5TH S7 more like 3.2TH. The OP was on the 24th October, "next week" for "price release" was last week. 10 elapsed days is Today the 3rd. 10 Working days is this coming Friday which is the 6th and yet the "release to market" is on the 10th?

So nothing adds up, so perhaps it was all just confused with Batch 4 & 5 of the S7?

Anyway we can live in hope as it would be a good addition to the range and straight competition for the B-Eleven & Avalon6.  :)


Rich

A 3.5 TH/s would be fine with better thermal dissipation and better volt control for a higher OC i would think, but i acknowledge that the information seem a bit wushy washy. All in all, we'll know for sure in a week and meanwhile no point in planning your finance around the S7 Lite.

I'm not sure what to think on the leak at this point.  The price does not make sense on his latest leak:


So... not sure if he was leaking false info for reasons.  Or if right and just some numbers got mixed up.

with the current value of bitcoin, they will probably price it too a very high amount, i think buying miners right now is a bad investment, miners should be bought when bitcoin is dead, and mine now with the mega pump

heh posted this on another thread below...essentially my KNC 550gh Jupiter BTC miner would now ONLY lose 11 bucks a month in electric vs payout in BTC at 13c kwh...so go baby go
I may fire the baby up again for swap'ing electric for btc...come to think of it....its winter I probably could justify turning it on now as a 'space heater' lol :)

link with details and btc calc used below

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=737629.msg12878694#msg12878694 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=737629.msg12878694#msg12878694)


So I would IMAGINE that a lot of S7 and S5+ guys that got miners (at least with USD) are now happy as clams...(assuming their first batch stuff works kinda/sorta as advertised)

So it could get interesting with 'old miners' pop'ing up..if only for a 'brief time' till difficulty sinks them again..but still...kinda funny imho :)

wow BTC is sky rocketing Just ordered my brand new S7 which I did not have enough for until it sky rocketed now have to wait until NOV-23 until they ship then about 3 to 4 days until it gets to my door.

Bought it from batch 5 which is already sold out. hope it still sky rockets by then which I doubt lol lol.  ;D

sorry shipping may start nov 23 to dec 03 and then that 10 day late thing this is crazy guess I have to wait.


 

Just buy the BTC, it's faster.

There is something about being a miner.  Some including myself truly love it.  Its a great hobby for those of us who go over the "home" mining amount.

Also it's pretty profitable for some.  At 230 I was running profitable..... so at 465.69 (100 percent up) I'm doing very very good at mining. 

I love it as well especially when my electric is free as STATED IN MY RENT AGREEMENT. I just cant wait to they ship my S7.  ;D ;D ;D ;D

Nice understatement here, got close to 500$ on Coinbase and I was already running S4 efficiency probability at 220$. The best part of it is the difficulty is not keeping up currently.
With the returns on my old miners, picking up S7 lites sound pretty good right now, when S5 and even S3 are being grabbed at crazy prices thats more expensive by the GH/s than a S7 from Bitmain.

Not surprised Batch 5 is already sold out.

I should do good I am going to team my S7 up when it comes with my S5. should have 4.86 TH/s + 1.23 TH/s = 6.09 TH/s and with free electric stated in my rent agreement wew !  ;D

I would read it and make sure there is not a clause that prevents spikes.  Those two are 2300ish watt's so $5.68 per day in electricity so in 30 day's around 170 + all the electricity you normally use (assuming 10 cents this could be wrong).

Assuming you use heat for winter I'm guessing that plus over 2k in mining gear will get a call from landlord.  But I could be wrong.

nope not at all the agreement stated no charge for excessive usage. I am running to S3's + one S5 with a trip lite 3000 watt SMARTPRO UPS and my gaming PC and it is using 1960 watt at the wall and never got a call and wont.

plus two refrigerators and 3 A.C units at 1500 watts each. the only problem I get is in the summer when wife turns on microwave or the toaster the main breaker kicks out that's why I bought the 3000 watt UPS.  ;D

 A.C units in summer lol.

Good idea on the UPS, wondering if i should get on one my co-used breakers for example there are some breakers i'm not mining on because i need to have access to them for cooking or cleaning etc. But its not like you use them most of the 24 hours in a day.

I'm guessing i just need a UPS that will feed the spikes and just drain max 1440watts at any time.

Also during the winter, if you have cold winter where you live, the heat generated by the miner is just going to cut the heating bill. Assuming you heat with electricity.

UPS on a miner is a waste of money, if you have reliable power.

 Electric being effectively "free" during the winter doesn't require you to have electric heat - miner heat generation cuts gas bills for heating quite well too.
 There is a limit though, if you have enough miner heat output to exceed how much heating you actually NEED.

They are saying they are tripping breakers, and UPS stops it from it.  I think it sounds like your putting to much load through your wires if you have to use things like this not to trip the breaker.

You really should just stop mining if your using the other device that trips it.  I don't like to play around with electricity.

no everything is fine in the winter all my UPS does "Never mind filtering" is kicks in when the main breaker kicks out so I don't have to restart my miners I got 20 minutes on battery power never tested it beyond that. anyway this only happens in the summer when there are three 1500 watt air conditioners in the summer and then my wife decides to turn on the 1500 watt microwave with everything else running. in the winter the main or sub breaker never tripped out once.

if she wants to use the toaster or microwave I just shut off one of the A>C units only in the summer. Believe me I have power meters installed in my breaker box by an electrician Everything is well monitored I don't like fires my life is more important than anything . I am a safety nut. I even have a FLUKE IR thermometer to measure heat om the plus and power cords.

and no a battery backup ups is not a waste of money it does the best job of protecting your miners from brownouts also you can monitor your line voltage on your laptop or pc.

http://s15.postimg.org/v1aluoi8r/ONE.png

http://s15.postimg.org/p2wskfza3/TWO.png

http://s1.postimg.org/8dmy84wjz/THREE.png

Also has remote management I can shut down or reboot my PC or turn on and off any miner even REBOOT the PSU from anywhere or completely power off everything and don't have to be home.  ;D ;D ;D

Got it on EBAY for $199.00 with no battery's which you need for it to work, Then Paid another $80.00 bucks for the battery's even got free shipping on both it is A TON with the batterys lol lol lol. works well as you can see.


 



 

Mr. Lees info was right on leak:

https://bitmaintech.com/productDetail.htm?pid=00020151105082702881F8f0B9I405FF

Price:       4 BTC
               ( 1481.32 USD )

1. Hash Rate: 4.05 TH/s

2. Power Consumption: 1042 W + 10% (at the wall, with APW3, 93% efficiency, 25C ambient temp)

3. Power Efficiency: 0.25 J/GH + 10% (at the wall, with APW3, 93% efficiency, 25°C ambient temp)

Yes I guess this is what we have been waiting for, although not quite what was expected.  :)

Looks like it's still 3 Boards but with a reduced chip count / Board. I think they have made a mistake and it will not be 145 Chips but 144.

Which means that each board reduces from 18 Tripple Nodes to 16 Tripple Nodes. Also the voltage range is now a more sensible 11.6V to 13.0V rather than the very tight must not be less than 12V.


Rich

Im not to impressed to be honest.  I was hoping to see 2 blade version.  To go down in speed... and keep 3 hashing boards just is a pain.

I dont think its the "lite" I was hoping they did.  With this I would have rather them it the same on higher speed.

This is not at all what we had guessed. It's not a Lite Version at all. I would call it a Design Correction. We have seen from the very tight voltage spec on the original S7 followed by batches at reduced hash rates that they were having manufacturing problems. This is a more permanent fix that with a 12V supply increases the Core Voltage from 0.66V to 0.75V and should allow reliable running at 600MHz and also I would think some overclocking.

What is uncertain at this point is if they are able to select BM1385 Chips and continue with the 4.86TH Design or if we will see all production move to the 4.05TH Batch 6 style?

Rich

We'll have to wait and see, but i am also not impressed, a design correction does not sound bad and a 4THs per unit also does not sound bad, but i would of wanted to see a consequential 20% price drop with the 20% hashrate drop.

Instead the unit is as expensive as ever, or more. I know BTC is doing very well right now and people are going hysterical and buying all they can get their hands on, but damn. Batch 4 and 5 were properly priced...

It seem it contains 135 chips, instead 145 (it can be a mistake), so, 45 chip / hashboard...

I'm guessing it has to do with quality control.  How they kept having to split into to batches one faster one slower.   I'm guessing they tested this out and can hit target speed instead of 2 speeds.

Price is also locked at 4 BTC so you can't really get a deal by watching btc price and it.

OK it's Morning in the UK so I am going to have another go at wrapping my head round what's going on with this Not So Lite S7? Excuse me while I think and Type, this may or may not lead anywhere?  :)

So here's the guts of the post from carlosmnk in the other thread that suggests 135 chips.


If you just look at the maths, the case for 135 chips is spot on, with the Hash per chip dividing down from 4.86TH with 162 Chips to 30GH and the multiplying neatly back up with 135 Chips to 4.050TH.

So what's the problem? Well the resultant Core Voltage on the Chips is the problem....

If we go back to the 4.86TH system, then 162 Chips are divided onto 3 Boards giving 54 Chips per board giving a Chain of 18 Nodes with 3 Chips / Node. Apply 12V to the 18 Chip string and we get 0.667V which is bang in the middle of the Core Voltage range shon in the BM1385 Data Sheet.

http://www.slotforum.com/forums/uploads/1446669741/gallery_2150_2322_4107.jpg

Now if we look at a 135 Chip System, then that has to be 3 Boards which gives 45 Chips per board and the only way that can be divided up is with a Chain of 15 Nodes with 3 Chips / Node. Apply 12V to this string and we get 0.8V which is  off the chart.

It's actually right up at the Max Recommended Core Voltage, but not over the Absolute Max so perhaps it's OK?

That is until you look at the new PSU spec which is "Rated Voltage: 11.60 ~ 13.00V"  Now if we apply 13V to the 15 Nodes we get 0.867V so yes still under the absolute Max but over the recommended.

]http://www.slotforum.com/forums/uploads/1446669741/gallery_2150_2322_76174.jpg

The other "problem" is the W/GH efficiency. At the original 0.66V we have 0.219W/GH add say 14% to that for the PSU & other inefficiencies and you get to the rated 0.25J/GH
However take a guess at the W/GH for a 0.8V Core, say 0.3W/GH and even without adding the 14% you can see we are way off???

So what's going on ? Well assuming this is a 135 Chip system with 15 Chip tripples per string my only thought is that the Data Sheet must be wrong and in practice the Core voltages needed are more like those for the BM1384 used in the S5 which coincidentally has a 15 chip string?

So no firm conclusion, overall 144 Chips works out best if the BM1385 Data Sheet is correct, however 135 chips fit's the maths best, but in that case the Data Sheet has to be wrong. Makes you wonder if there is a third solution waiting to be found?

Let's hope that someone will take the case off and post a photograph?  :)


Rich
 
UPDATE. The Bitmain Website has been corrected and now shows 135 Chips. So that part of the mystery is solved. What is not solved is the Chip Core Voltage and reconciling that and the J/GH with the BM1385 Data Sheet?

No more math with this, bitmain has correct the data:

 S7 Specifications:

1. Hash Rate: 4.05 TH/s

2. Power Consumption: 1042 W + 10% (at the wall, with APW3, 93% efficiency, 25C ambient temp)

3. Power Efficiency: 0.25 J/GH + 10% (at the wall, with APW3, 93% efficiency, 25°C ambient temp)

4. Rated Voltage: 11.60 ~ 13.00V

5. Chip quantity per unit: 135x BM1385

6. Dimensions: 301mm(L)*123mm(W)*155mm(H)

7. Cooling: 2x 12038 fan

8. Operating Temperature: 0 °C to 40 °C

9. Network Connection: Ethernet

10. Default Frequency: 600M

It may be a good unit for underclock & undervolt.  it says 11.6 to 13.0 volts   they may have altered the  voltage regulation like they did with the later s-5's

Still a big mystery to me as to what is going on with Batch 6? Yes the number of chips is clear at 135 but that has to mean that the chain length has been reduced from 18 to 15 chips. So shorter chain has to mean increased core voltage, which does make sense given the batches we have seen with a reduced Default frequency and the original very tight PSU spec.

However as I have detailed above the resultant 0.8V per chip just does not tie in with the BM1385 Data sheet, and as we all know increased Core Voltage = lower efficiency, and yet they are still quoting an unchanged 0.25J/GH.

So either the BM1385 Data Sheet is wrong, the efficiency has reduced relative to the earlier Batches, there is a significant change to the Hash Board design, or something else I have not thought of?  :)

Just noticed there is a subtle change to the efficiency spec.

Batch 1 - Power Efficiency: 0.25 J/GH (at the wall, with APW3, 93% efficiency, 25°C ambient temp)
Batch 6 - Power Efficiency: 0.25 J/GH + 10% (at the wall, with APW3, 93% efficiency, 25°C ambient temp)

However +10% would still only max it 0.275% and on my maths it's over 0.3J/GH



Rich

ah not what i was expecting sincerely, this is still too akin to the s7 as a power concern, but it seems that it cost much less, the s7 is still priced 7 btc with only 1/5 more of the hash

this can do roi in 4 months with free electricity and falt diff, with my bad electricity and a flat diff, i cna roi in 7 months without selling it before, mmh i'm a bit tempted :D

The day when we had 500 BTC and high 400's people got a bargain on better S7's then this and for cheaper.  Now it's a fixed 4 btc price so it does not happen again.

I think they should have went to 2 blade if going to downgrade it.  They kept the design with 10 PCIe for less hash... i was not thinking they would do that.

Yes very disappointed that they did not go along with our  :) 2 Board design. I cannot afford do not want to spend this much money on a miner, but would like to move to S7 / BM1385 efficiency as even at the current BTC price ny S5's will not be profitable after the halving.

I do agree  with Phil


and think that relative to the earlier batches of S7, which are a bit on the edge for Voltage & Frequency, this one will offer more scope for Under & Over Volting & Frequency.

Rich

 If you mean "falling diff", that isn't going to happen. Ditto "flat diff".

 Don't forget you don't GET the thing 'till sometime in December.

 My standard calc shows this thing has no more chance at RoI with anything but VERY cheap electric than the 4.66 or 4.86 batches did - they did NOT drop the price enough to account for the lower TH and the LONG DELAY IN SHIPPING.



 The only advantage to this unit is that the higher volts/chip should let it overclock and be more reliable on meeting it's specs - at the cost of efficiency (I do NOT believe that 0.25w/GH spec, but had to use it for my calc as it was what was available).

I was expecting it to be quite different. Thought dual module and big change.  With new S7 change it is not near as big of change as I thought.

Lose hashpower and still have 10 PCIe ports needed.   I think it was a bad move.

OK so stepping back from the detail of Batch 6, how about this for a bit of speculation as to what is going on at Bitmain as regards the S7? I still strongly feel that this is not a "New or Lite" Miner it is a Design Correction.

So in a very short period of time we have seen 4 different versions / selections of the S7. We have had batches at 4.86TH, 4.66TH and some people have even had shipments at 4.45TH. Now we have a revised design with less chips at 4.05TH.

You don't plan things to go like this  :) and clearly they have been having real problems with achieving the original spec. There is evidence, with the stickers on the Boards, that they have been speed selecting and it may even be that they are doing the same with the BM1385 and at the System level?

However you just can't carry on doing this in a volume manufacturing environment so I think that "Management" said that's enough, change the design and get us out of this mess.

So my guess is that the chip reduced 4.05TH S7 is very new and may only exist on paper at this point in time. However "Marketing" wanted a Batch for Sale, so the Engineers get pressed into a specification and that is why the numbers just do not add up. The error on the chip count, the very strange quoting of Power Efficiency as 0.25 J/GH + 10% etc. I do not think we have seen the final spec yet and that will come when they make some measurements?

Where they have been lucky is that the comptition, or rather lack of competition, has given them a Free Ride, leaving them as the only Game in Town with this class of Miner, allowing them to get away with this mess while selling the Miners for a premium price.


Rich

I agree you.

I think this version could be some sort of sop to the 120V home market. The typical US 120V, 15 amp outlet can handle 12 amps max continuously. With a little tuning plus a decent power supply, this version can be a one electrical outlet/branch circuit miner.

Not really, the First format on the S7 almost was, since 1200watts is close to the 12A 110V limit. Meanwhile 1000watts on the 1440watts 80% safety margin on 120V is kind of awkward. Got to find something else to do with the 400watts.

The S4 is the one that was really fittingd as a one miner, one circuit miner 120v wise, the PSU is even rated to exactly 1440watts.

Actually it's more involved. Assuming the minimum code for the US home electrical 120V circuit (14 gauge 60C copper wire)

1) The B2 specs are 0.25 J/Ghz, 4.66 (+/- 5%)

2) Ideally for ROI purposes, a single power supply is better, especially since the S7 control board has it's own PCI connector. So we are looking at some 1300W unit with 10 PCI connectors.

3) Spec power budget: 1165 watts (4660 x 0.25) + 120 watts (power supply) + 36 watts (wire loss: 14 gauge, 50 ft run, 12 amps) = 1320 watts. So there is some margin.

Unfortunately there are miners that don't meet the specs for efficiency and hash rate. So if you get an S7 that is operating at 0.275 J/Ghz, the total power draw is 1437 watts, the residential limit.

10 ports needed for just 1045W is pretty much ignorable bs.


not sure...B1, B2, B4 are 1210w; B3 and B5 are 1160W; B6-1045+maybe 10%=1150W
I am not aware of any B1-B5 that required 1437w.

I would agree on the 10 ports for around 1k watts... they should have done a bigger redesign I think 2 blades and much less PCIe for what they were doing.   If they want you to use 10 PCIE ports it should have much more power in my mind.

But if you don't use 10 recommended it ruins the warranty.  So they really push it to being used.

1437 watts on a standard US 15 Amp circuit is OK.
NEC specs are quite conservative, it's perfectly reasonable to expect 100% power draw to be safe, though less is a little safer....

 "12Amp" limit is excessive for a standard residential outlet on a standard 15 amp circuit.


 What I don't understand is why BitMain went to as much of an extreme on their "S7 correction" design, IMO they should have dropped to 16/string not 15 and kept the efficiency higher while kicking the reliability up to something decent.

 I also don't understand why they didn't go to 2 ports/board, unless they are deliberately leaving LOTS of space for large overclocking.

There are a lot of unanswered questions, and until we actually see a batch 6 they will remain so.

As I put in my earlier post. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1219211.msg12911092#msg12911092

My money still on Bitmain not having a batch 6 yet and that it only exists on paper? The pictures still show the 4.86TH device. Batch 6 could be a major relayout of the board or they may just have "fudged" it to remove 3 Nodes & 9 Chips per board?


Rich

Get your shit together bitmain.  Also put out a miner with very low sound level, like the s3 for example.  people will buy it even if its less efficient and more expensive

I think the day's of the small miners are in the past.  Like it or not the redesign showed even when they go smaller it's still a big machine.   I do not think the home miner day's will quite be the same as the past.

I think it's going to move to what I call "hobby miners" with areas and proper wiring, cooling, etc.  Sure some will be able to put in and about max out a circuit but really designing for home day's is over.

you never know with these smaller low power nanometer low power chips.

I'm not sure about that.  Look at all the hardware being sold right now and see how most are going twords more you can fit in the box of speed, the better.

Find one that shows lower even at lower NM.  I mean B-12 I think it is could be the first consumer lower NM.  And all their terrahash look big as well.  So I would not count on S3 type miners.

i don't know what they can not afford better fan, it's not like they cost too much or whatever, i can buy with for $5 or less on amazon with the plus program

they should really do this, or at least provide a fan with 3-4 pin, so we can lower the cfm

There is no such thing as a "quiet" high flow fan, to get to the range of CFM they need to achieve decent cooling they HAVE to go with a fan that makes quite a bit of noise.

 TANSTAAFL.

Ive replaced nearly all my fans with same or better cooling. And the noise is easily two to height time lower, so yea the one Bitmain use are not bad but they are very cheap and that is why they go with them, because its much more efficient cost wise to use those.

I have yet to see any company come out with something modular where you can just buy a main trunk and keep adding things easily to it.  I guess the modular add-on idea hasn't taken off.

there is no point business-wise to have another 2boards design! simple as that!

the fan used from s4, s5 till now is a crap and a piece of shit ! :o

It would need some R&D before it takes off. Most R&D goes towards efficiency. Cant really blame them since the water cooled unit failed miserably.


Just halve the amount of boards. Fill the gap with bigger heatsinks. Make profit from people who are too cheap to buy a s7.

Now they are trying to hide their shadiness (https://www.reddit.com/r/BitcoinMining/comments/3s5wmh/bitmain_has_misleading_s7_specs_be_careful/) by releasing S7 lite with lower hashrate! ::) I think they need to change this BM1385 chip in order to overcome with heating and efficiency issues. At least in S8 maybe! ;)

That's just because that poster does not understand what that means and the miner consumption vs power consumption at the wall, there is nothing shaddy here, with the drop in hash rate, there is also a drop in power consumption.

With a 90% eff psu that would come up to 1157watts at the wall~ down from 1240~ and the hashrate goes down at the same ratio.

In fairness the efficiency of the B6 appears to have been lowered by 10% (Power Efficiency: 0.25 J/GH + 10% (at the wall, etc...)  And chip count was reduced to 135 vs 165162 for earlier batches. Speculation is that this is to decrease the string size in order to increase chip voltage, due to some issues that seem to have come up when PSU's put out slightly lower than 12V. There were clearly some QC issues in earlier batches, hence the two different hashrates in different batches, though my 2x B1 S7's are hashing away at 100%, and even OC'd a bit to 5TH/s without a hiccup.

Edit:typo

3x 54 =162 chip not 165
I think that the new 4,05 TH/s S7 can be better as old 4,86 TH/s

I a world where the eficiency is so important is understandable that a company launch a worse product after one better... I wanna wait and see too.

The new s7 is marked as sold out on bitmain so I wonder what the next batch has in store for us.  Are they going to produce another batch of the same, something different or drop a new chip and new unit.  I'd guess they just produce another batch but the drop in btc price has hurt their value since they are using a hard btc price instead of dollar.  Soo I wonder will they release something to the public?  The units they haven't even shipped yet so it will be some time till then

They have did batches pretty far out really for them.  It's almost to point its kinda a pre-order I think you get a month or so ahead.  I mean the current batch could ship "between Dec. 7 ~ Dec. 17 (if shipped out 5 days later than it, it won't be considered as delay )." So Dec 23 ship out around a month and 6 day's and they are not late.

So It would not surprise me if we see another one of the newer S7's again just wait till it's closer to that batch being shipped or possibly  shipped.   I do not expect them to change it again or make a two blade, I think they are going to remain firm on current design at this point.

My money still on all future batches being of the 135 Chip, 4.05TH variety. Still intrigued to see what the actual consumption & J/GH these actually achieve? However we have a while to wait for first tests on a Batch 6, and there must be a risk that deliveries get slowed by Xmas?

Rich

It seems that my forecast was wrong.  :)  Batch 7 is another variation with 162 Chips, 5.06TH, 1270W, Default Frequency 625MHz, 0.25J/GH and Supply Voltage 12.0V+5%, should not be less than 12.0V

https://www.bitmaintech.com/productDetail.htm?pid=0002015111710183627718X85SYG0616

I can only guess that they are selecting BM1385 for these?


Rich

Interesting they have a new batch.  It's almost like pre-ording you order so far ahead.  1.5 Month lead time to get product is a change in bitmain.  It is intersting as i would guess with 1.5 month lead time they could order all parts, etc from customers money not even need to use their own like when batches were made close to shipping date.

I really hope they push timeframe to less day's ahead when they look at more batches.

I suppose it give them more operational leeway, i'm guessing they realized that people trust them enough that they can get away with doing this, as it give them another edge. Interesting of them to make a step up in chips instead of down. Look like RichBC's guess did not come to be.

Sound a bit risky to buy in now, as with the difficulty increase, i'm not sure this unit will be worth 5BTC in 3~4 difficulty rounds.

Tough game this guessing.  :) Then again who would have guessed that we would have 4 different Default Frequencies / TH/s and 2 different chip count S7 in such a short period of time?

Still they are running out of permutations, unless we start seeing different Default Frequency 135 Chip versions.  :)


Rich

I would really like to see a two board S7 with a high chip permutation, with bigger heatsink, should make the thing very quiet during winter and make it cheaper to buy it single unit by single unit.

Back to wishing for a 3.5TH~ "lite" for Christmas.

Yes I guess we have several games... Guessing what they might do, guessing what it is while we wait for someone to get one, and Wishing for what we actually want.  :)

On the Wishing front yes I still think that a 2 Board S7 would be a great product. I am actually now torn between wishing it would be based on 54 or 45 chips / board? 45 chip I feel would be a very solid product with a lot of scope for over & under clocking and volting. Whereas 54 chips / board would push up the hash rate and I think respond well to overvolting which is much easier to do with a Server PSU than undervolting. Unfortunately I don't expect to see either...

Am still intrigued to find out why they have found it necessary to have so many variants? I can only assume that they are getting a very broad spread of BM1385 chips and this is there way of coping with this? As has been said already it's going to be a nightmare in the 2nd hand market to know what you are buying.

Rich

Maybe they are dealing with different fabricant that can do one but not the other? Its nagging me, as to why they are doing this, as i can't come up with a reason. Sure they have lots of BM1385's but that doesn't really justify doing random things with them?

I think it makes more sense the 5th vs the almost 4th on the 3 blade design.  I just think 10 PCIe for 4TH is to much, and I know some are going to say you can use less... and i'm sure some do but I have been following bitmain's warranty on last few miners.

I cannot for the life of me figure out the up vs down.   But I think they will end up closer to  5th on future batches maybe they got quality up or something, or they had better yields.  There has to be something behind it, and I'm guessing it's tied to money.

Maybe they buffed out some of the issues with the earlier batches and did a 4 th unit to just be on the safe side of things.  After some testing they said ok everything is good lets drop a 5 th unit and start pushing out more of these chips.  It is interesting to note that shipping times for batch 6 & 7 are exactly the same, so that would lead me to believe they had both these machines designed at the same time.

i think they are rising the default frequency because is winter and because they are acceleratin the roi for this products; but maybe they changed the headsinks design for this batch...

I have this feeling that we will never get to the bottom of the S7 variants. I have seen mention of at least 3 board revisions, but because it's a closed unit with the Boards covered in mini heatsinks we may not get any good pictures to see if the changes are cosmetic or just a BM1385 selection?

Rich

Wow got a guess right.  :) Batch 8 is a 135 Chip Variant.



Rich

700M !!!!!!!!!!!! :o

It would sure be interesting to know if the 135-chip miner is actually a de-populated 162-chip miner with "dummy jumpers" in place of the missing chips. I hope that somebody that gets a Batch #6 or Batch #8 opens it up enough to count.

The problem with this is now if you did that it will void your bitmain warranty... which kinda sucks.  You basically have to have permission from them to do anything at this point.

I agree it would be interesting to see some of the chip counts.  They keep jumping up and down it's hard to keep track.  I think the S7 will be remembered as the miner that never really kept one speed.  It is very odd for them to keep changing it each batch it seems at this point.  I do admit I like they went up and not down on last batch put up on hashing speed.

So following the publication of the picture of the Batch 8 Hash Board on the Bitnain Product page this is my current thinking.

https://www.bitmaintech.com/bm_tech_admin_at_123/userfiles/image/45%20chips.jpg

As we knew they have removed 3 triples, 9 ASIC's, from the chain. However rather than that being it, which never completely added up because the resultant increase in the Core Voltage from 0.6V to 0.8V took the chips way off the data Sheet and would have ruined the efficiency. So they have removed the chips from the bottom of the chain and my best guess is that the have added a Buck converter to the board, in the vacated space.

We can see the large inductor & capacitors and I am assuming that the Buck Converter chip is on the other side, which they are choosing to keep from us at the moment.  :) So assuming that is correct I am further assuming that the 45 chips are still arranged as a 15 Chip triple node string. The buck converter presumably reduces the 12V to around 10V, giving us a hybrid design. In fact an integrated version of what we have been playing with on the S5 with a 12V PSU and an external Buck Converter.

The big unknown here is have they made this voltage software adjustable to give say 0.55V to 0.75V / Chip, or is it a fixed voltage? If they have done this perhaps it was done as a reaction to the Avalon6 which has an automatic frequency / undervolt algorithm?

Either way although there will be a small loss in efficiency with the Buck Converter but a gain in flexibility and overall be it software adjustable or good old pencil mod I think it represents an improvement over the straight string design.

It is also possible that I have completely misunderstood what the components are and the change that they have made is for something completely different.......


Rich

Very interesting. Before i saw this picture, i did not want to but this batch, but now... I don't think so, perphaps it could be a good idea...

Thanks Rich!!