Bitcoin Forum

Here is the story:

I am a big player of bitstarz. I deposit big, bet bigger. Last week i lost 2.54 btc. They credited my account with 0.25 btc loyalty/cashback bonus.

Then i started to play. I played one slot with 0.024 btc. I hit about 2btc win. Then i lowered my bet to 0.012 btc. I get bored, then i played with 0.03 and 0.06 btc. Most of my winnings come from my first 0.024 btc bets.

Then i finished bonus rollover. Requested a 3.45 btc withdraw. They cancelled it and they removed my entire balance. Their claim is " You broke our rules by betting over 0.025 btc ".

I respect their rules. I did not know that rule. However while most of my winnings comes from 0.024 btc bet, they remove whole balance.

I feel scammed. They could remove my bets over 25mbtc (both wins and loses comes from that bets) then remains my balance with comes from 0.025 below bets. Then i could go on to rollever bonus amount.

My advise is that do not play on bitstarz. They can easily remove your balance for any reason as i lose 3.45 btc.

edit: They are breaking their own terms and conditions. Here is the proof:

http://edited

According the their terms and conditions page:


Bonus was 0.25btc 30% of that is 0.075. 50 bets of 0.06 would not therefore be in breach of the terms.

Been hearing bad things about big bitcoin casinos lately. First mbit not allowing withdraws from an account after depositing so much money and now this. These are the two that I have frequently used but not anymore after hearing about these things.

That s really bad to hear this removal.

I think solution should be like @OP stated. Remove player's all winnings and loses that gained from 25 above mbtc. Keep player balance with the bets below 25 btc.

I will not deposit again to bitstarz while they are acting like scamer.

Hi there,

First of all I'm sorry we had to do this but I believe many players here on this forum are well aware of the
max betting with bonuses and stay below the stated limit in the casino's terms and conditions. It's quite
common practice on online casinos.

This was also a free bonus we threw your way and gave you the loyalty bonus back to give you another
shot at winnings, which we believed was a decent gesture in all this. We as a casino has obligations
but as the same time you have an obligation as a player to follow the rules, and we are sorry they
were not followed this time which resulted in this confiscation.

It was not a case of a one time over the limit thing, I unfortunately counted over 50 bets which were over the limit.
If there was a case of a one-off thing, we would have looked the other way most likely, but it was not the case this time.

If the OP or any of the other players here have any questions regarding this, I'm here to answer.

Hope everyone has a great weekend,

Mike

Based on the terms about the bonus, yes you broke the rules. Once you broke the rules means you did not deserve to win anything IMHO.
And if you said that they just need to removed your winning and lossing from the over 0.025 bets, it is not fair for them because rules is still rules. If they removed your all your bets above 0.025 means that you did not meet the wagering requirement yet, it will be a double work for the admin because they need to re calculate your wagering.
Be careful next time and read all terms before doing something on any casinos.

Just my opinion.

I knew it for a long time Bitstarz are scammers just yesterday they stole me 0.08 btc, i will not put more details but "mike" the hero supporter know about it.

Hi there,

I'm sorry to hear about that you feel that you've been unfairly treated but I'm sure there is a logical explanation
to what happened and it can be resolved. Also, it would be fantastic if you could provide me with more information
in a PM?

I'm sure it's just a misunderstanding somewhere.

Regards,

BitStarz

If thats the case better to stay away from that site and i think better to announce it into scam accusation before someone else are depositing in that site... also to prevent newbie to join in that site..

Hi there,

I'd like to throw some light on this situation as I think that when someone uses the word "scammer" I always appreciate
it's being presented with some kind of evidence too. We all want a fair gaming situation here and it's important that if
there are any experienced issues, this should be presented in the open with a fair argument so we can work it out as
civilized people.

In your case (if I recall correctly) you were playing rounds to a total of 0.08 BTC and the your got disconnected for some
reason, and the came to talk to us on the live chat claiming you got disconnected and now the slot "forgot your 0.08 BTC
you put in" and you had to start all over. So, let's kill a myth right here, it has absolutely nothing to do with the progress
of your continued playing unless there's a progress feature in the game such as in Immortal Romance where you collect
achievements and whatnot. I do apologize for the disconnection however as I know it's quite frustrating when you're
in the middle of something.

Also, the argument that we sat there and waited for you and disconnected you on purpose, I'm sorry mate but that's not
the case either.

I'm happy to answer any questions any of you have, but I think it's fair for both of us, player and operator that we play with
open cards (pun intended for sure) before we throw out words as liars and scammers. Let's keep this friendly and to the point.

Regards,

Mike

Please stay in the topic. Our subject is removing 3.45 btc balance and confiscate winnings.

Hi worthyou,

Again, I'm sorry about having to confiscate but you violated the terms and conditions on 50 separate bets,
and any other casino would have done the exact same thing. Again, if it was one or two times, I would
look the other way for sure, but you didn't leave me much of a choice.

You also have responsibilities as a player to follow the rules of the site, but when they are breached
multiple times, I have to follow protocol. I'm not getting a thrill out of doing it, believe me, but it's important
that the rules are the same for all players and that everyone is treated equally.

Mike

You know me. I am not a typical bonus hunter or etc. I am a depositor. A big depositor. I have no thought while i break this rule. Simply i didn't know that. As my gambling habit i generally bet big amount, as you know very well.

While you can re-calculate my bets against rules, you are not doing this. I have no idea while i am betting high. Moreover, i won most of this amount from 0.024btc bets which is accepted by rules.

You could do a 1 time exception, however you did not. Paying 3.45 btc make you furious, you immediately remove my balance. We could make a dea by removing my higher bets and re-calculate my wagerin. I could go on to wagering again.

There is no "good will" on the decision of not paying 3.45 btc.

What a shame for a casino. They confiscate  player winnings. They generate new rules. I think they do not have even 3.45 btc. Please stay away from this scammer casino.

Lol bitstars you know this guy is a honest player and he didnt use that bonus in order to do something illegal. He was just playing and he would probably bet big again if u didn't remove his bonus cause he simply didn't know that rule. I don't know why are u acting so bad if u could just reverse these 50 plays from his balance and give him remaining. I'm the first but surely not the last one that will not join ur site but spread that u're simply a scammer.

Hi again,

Big player or small player makes a difference in the amount of perks you get in the casino, which I think all casino players think are fair,
you basically get rewards according what you put in. But rules are the same for every player in the casino.

In all this, we did give you the loyalty bonus back after confiscating, giving you a third chance in the casino to play according to the bonus rules and
the first bet you did was 10x over the limit again with the new bonus we gave you.

You have an obligation to follow the rules in the casino and on this occasion you did not mate and unfortunately had to pay the consequences for it,
it's not like randomly decided to deduct money from your account because we felt like it.

If you play at BitStarz or some other casino in the future I kindly advice you to read through the terms and conditions
and utilize the customer support to make sure this doesn't happen again.

I wish you all the best in your future gambling,

Mike

Hi there,

This rule is one of the most common bonus terms out there and has been there since
the launch of BitStarz, but you are of course free to play at any casino out there.

Best of luck!

Mike

Hi there,

He might have known about the rule or not, but it's still an obligation to read through the terms and conditions
of the bonus prior to playing, there are not many actually and they're very much standard rules like you would
find anywhere else.

You can claim anything on the internet and spread any information, but my definition of a scam would not be
to discipline a playing breaking a clear rule. But you are free to make up your own mind about that one :)

Mike

You should never trust a licensed bitcoin casino such as BitStarz, mBit Casino, Bitcasino.io and other from SoftSwiss, CoinProfit familly.
They will always find a way to not pay the winners.
Play only on trusted sites without senseless terms such as Rollin, PrimeDice , if you are a fan of classic casino games then play at Coin Royale and Bustabit

They are breaking their own terms and conditions rules. Here it is:

http://edited

Bonus was 0.25btc 30% of that is 0.075. 50 bets of 0.06 would not therefore be in breach of the terms.

Everything is so clear. However they are still confiscate  my bitcoin.

Hi there,

Here you go.

https://i.imgur.com/kLQLLf5.png


Mike

So while you accept your rule stated on terms/conditions page, you have 2 rule conflicting in both side. According to one rule as i pasted above i am legitimate. That is your fault to publish 2 conflicting terms and conditions. Favorably to law, if there are conflict between 2 terms, term should be apply benefit for customer.

Wow that's sketchy as hell. I understand their part of it (betting over 2mBTC) but to remove the entire balance makes no sense at all. I'm eagerly awaiting to hear what happens here.

Hi there,

It's 25 mBTC :) just making that clear.

Mike

That's a quite dishonest rule, it should be enforced by the software not to steal from distracted users...

Arbitrary rules are arbitrary, you better read the whole think, somewhere in there it may say "if you make a bet of exactly 0.5265842658 bitcoins we steal your entire balance plus your first born."

Hi again,

Just to make this clear, this is a standard term for betting with bonus and can be found at almost every
casino, including Betchain, stated here.

https://i.imgur.com/82C8euQ.png

nah what you did is this:
you gave a big player bonus that is hard to achiveve (almost impossible) and then when he did it you removed his winnings.
and i agree with him you scamed him!
regards.
-Katerniko1

some week ago i played on bitstarz, i made a deposit (0.05) and i doubled it, i requested the cashout of 0.1 and never got paid

some days later not even can get inside my account, they just steal my 0.05 deposit and scammed my 0.1

It is a shame that this casino doesnt feel anything to make clear this 2 bonus conflicting terms and conditions. They can not say even 1 word about this.

http://edited pm me for to get

According to this terms, they confiscate my winnings 3.45 btc.

Things are getting strange here. Now it is clear that this casino is trying to scam people by seize their btc.

How can it be possible to have 2 different terms and conditions for any casino? It does not make sense. I think this casino does this everytime. Whenever they want to block cash-out, they use and cite 1 of their "proper" conditions to seize player profits.

I'll follow this subject until it is solved.

Is Bitstarz really implying that the user who is claiming to be a big gambler (and can easily be verified) bet with the sole purpose of creating a +ev betting scenario?  

Imo, it seems more likely that the terms are being used against him in order to not pay him out rather than being an honest enforcement of a violation.  

I am a regular player of bitstarz. Everything was good until today. I have not been faced with any problem in there. Up to the present i have been only watching topics bitcointalk.

I believe that Nick, as casino manager, should take care with this subject. (Not a customer representative - Mike) I hope everything will be ok for both sides.

Personally that kind of a rule, which is also stated differently in 2 different places of the site, serves one purpose - to fuck over customers who could potentially cashout something from these "perks". I think most of people betting with that kind of a bankroll would bet 0.025+ without hesitation. They know VERY small amount of people look at the ToS/rules/whatever so carefully... therefore they know this kind of a rule will fuck over most people.

Thanks for your comment. One thing to add, i am still right to 1 of their terms and conditions. However they instantly put another rules to confiscate my whole balance.

They added rules right after your case? That's sketchy.

Nope. They already have these 2 conditions. But it's still sketchy.

Yeah, shouldn't have different information.

They do not inform user if there is a change in their ToS.
How bigger bets than 0.025 are considered as advantage for player? (expected value is same after completing rollover requirement)

This seems pretty cut-and-dry in worthyou's favor, and I plan on leaving negative trust on bitstars unless I'm mistaken or missing something (in which case I greatly apologize).



lol. That's what I call bullshit. First of all, when I go check the terms right now ( https://www.bitstarz.com/terms ) I see no mention of it. Secondly, there's already an industry standard for dealing with bets bigger than you want: don't accept them. It's dishonest to accept a bet that you're not willing to honor. For instance, in BaB I'm not comfortable with the variance of bets bigger than 1 BTC. So what do I do? I don't allow people to make them. I don't accept them, cite some obscure ToS violation and steal peoples money.

What makes it doubly bullshit, is that according worthyou he predominately made his money from from a bet less than that, and the "violation" was inconsequential and just an excuse to not pay?

Let's see what happens... hopefully you will get the money

Their (small) reputation is at stake.

He will not get win...

LIMITATION OF LIABILITY T&C  ;D ;D ;D

https://i.gyazo.com/30ab9367259a7b2a6ae68baa747f6d68.png

Here are you saying that the max bet is 0.05btc.

And here u say the max bet is 0.025btc.

???

It's an example from another site

Any follow up?

Wow mike, nice scame you are running there. I would not recommend anyone plays at bitstars anymore

Nothing has changed. Despite having 2 different "conflicting" terms, this site still refusing to pay back my winnings.

They lose 1 customer. I hope in this forum who read this topic, will not deposit more there.

In conclusion, i want to end my message with this quote:

Hi there,

Other examples of irregular game play include but are not limited to, placing single bets equal to or in excess of 30% or more of the value of the bonus credited to their account until such time as the wagering requirements for that bonus have been met.

Kind Regards,

Mike

I really don't like to make enemies, but I've left negative trust based on this.

I don't see how bitstars.net is able to justify taking the users money for betting too big when:
*  it's clear he wasn't advantage gambling
*  didn't derive his money from "disallowed bets"
*  the system never stopped him
*  and rule violation that bitstars.net screenshoted saying the max allowable bet is 0.025 btc isn't even on the website as of now! ( https://web.archive.org/web/20160502231900/https://www.bitstarz.com/terms )


I will happily remove if I'm mistaken or missing something

It is strange to trace that while most of the users justify me, bitstarz not. They are highly deserve this negative trust, as they had removed the player balance while they have 2 different "conflicting" terms.

Where is this rule stated, that the max bet for bonus is 25 mBTC? I can't seem to find it here: https://web.archive.org/web/20160502231900/https://www.bitstarz.com/terms
If it is stated anywhere then they're not completely at fault, because according to them:
Which would mean that OP after hitting big on one bet, made 50 bets which were over the limit to complete their wagering requirement quickly.

A solution would be to remove all those bets which were over the limit and let the OP complete the wagering requirement again and let them withdraw the bonus which is then remaining in the account. Don't think Bitstarz should have any problems with that.

---

PS: My advice to Bitstars is, either don't give away such big bonuses as free bets with so many T&Cs which are hard to follow for anyone, make sure that the user reads the terms before playing with bonus(es) by having them confirm that they understood the rules ([✓]I confirm that I have read and understand the rules) or make sure that these rules are applied technologically on the site which would restrict them from going overboard. OR just give free bonuses like Primedice does, which are without any rules, either play or withdraw is up-to player's discretion.

Hi there,

https://www.bitstarz.com/bonus-terms-and-conditions

There you go.

Kind Regards,

Mike

Agree on the whole Rhavar line but what piss me most is the bolded part: I mean, come on, your system allow players to place bets for which they may have their funds removed !!!!


I would call this behaviour unloyal/unfair .

Why don't you prevent players from finding themselves in wrong situations?

*Someone* could think that the purposes of letting players to make such bets is to keep their money if those betr will be losing ones and to confiscatre their funds if those bets turn winning.   

Yeah, it seems incredibly scummy. Searching the forums, it seems they've used this trick multiple times before, once to avoid paying out 20 BTC as well:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=651730.msg14194712#msg14194712

And funnily enough, even when looking for the conditions I was unable to find it. It's hidden in the fine print of a completely different page. No one in their right mind would assume making a bet that is allowable by the UI is a punishable offense to the tune of your entire balance.

It hard to see it this as anything but a predatory and scammy way to avoid paying winners (if you lose with large bets, they seem to have no problems taking your money).

They do not show T&C for particular bonus before you activate it!
This is just dishonest rule to take user funds

Losing reputation and players for measly 3 BTC. WAY TO GO!

According to the link Ryan posted, they pulled this stunt to confiscate 20BTC as well. 

That more than warrants negative feedback imo.

I do not know how they managed to get 9.13 mark (#4 OF 1085 CASINOS) on AskGamblers

Bunch of clowns

I love this smear campaign. Truly the world's best catch-22 situation.

Either they will break their law to pay him the 3.45BTC, a huge sum, or they don't, and this viral thread will completely annihilate players and revenue.
huehuehue evil little @worthyou.

Excellent bait. Hats off to you.

Hi worthyou,

As a casino owner who has always made it top priority to provide a trusted and safe place for players to play I am tired of seeing players get screwed over time and time again by other Bitcoin casinos.

In future I would recommend you play only on provably fair sites that have a solid reputation, proven to be trustworthy and no history of withdrawal issues.

There are a few you have been suggested in this thread already and obviously I suggest https://betking.io where we have the highest betting limits, instant withdrawals and proof of funds so you know you will be paid if you win.

I would like to offer you some consolation by sending you 3.45 Bitcoin that you had taken from you unfairly by Bitstarz.

You can either pm me a Bitcoin address or a https://betking.io user id and I can tip it to you on the site. No obligation to play, instant withdrawal if you like.

All the best

Really superb move!

this is a great move made by you.!
people like you is what we need. you giving consolation of 3.45btc back to him seems unreal but i play at betking.io and i know you are fair and you will do it so thumbs up!
regards.
-Katerniko1

Wow, whichever way you look at it, it seems OP got shafted. To me he was giving action in good faith without any apparent malicious intentions. Yet the casino is willing to make the judgment it did and risk its rep over a few paltry btc.

Looks like Bitstarz lost their chance to make up for it. Good move from dean certainly.

Seems like your luck has turned worthyou!

Hello

I really can't believe you are willing to send my stolen funds. OMG

Here is my btc address

1Pb4m9dPYhyegUruhwKysw5nuZarULGmCP

Let's see what happens :)

Hi,

I just sent you 3.45 Bitcoin to the address you provided.

Good luck

What I can guarantee is that you will get them ;)


Edit: you already did xD

Here is tx: https://blockchain.info/tr/tx/955c03079088cc1de82395e4143bc3fcc8061f9be21463b08e69e48b3268af7c

It's unbelieveble. What can i say anymore  :D

I am still can't believe my eyes about what is happening.

I've played many times before betking.io. Never faced with any problem. Withdrawals are instant. However i couldn't even predict it to betking.io will cover my stolen funds.

I deeply respect to betking.io . They acted with compassion while bitstarz have not done anything else to solve this issue. While bitstarz just blaming me.

Betking shows that they are trusted and safe company. They are blancing over other casinos faults. This business sensibility and ethical values are really that we need on bitcoin ecosystem. While others do not have.

In conclusion, i really want to thank you betking.io for covering my balance. I'd also like to thank to bitcointalk community. While askgambler (which is totally funded by bitstarz advertisements) did not interested with my complaint. Casinomeister is other place i opened a topic to discuss for, while many players justifed me, their administration did not do anything for my issue.

Thank you.

Happy for you. Spend the coins well :P

This act is for news! Be ashamed BitStarz.
I received few bonuses BetKing in the past and they were with no strings attached, received  bonus(185mBTC) from BitCasino.io for guessing 3 numbers right and had to wager it 40x to request cashout
I will never play at Bitstarz or any other SoftSwiss casino from now.

It is interesting to see that, on one hand, Dean is willing giving away 3.45 btc just because he don't want to see a player (not even playing on his site) getting screwed. On the other hand, Bitstars has created ambiguous rules and chosen to not process the withdrawal at the expense of its reputation.
Kudos to you, Dean.

Wow that's great move by Betking.io. Honestly I didn't paly at their site before but after this incident it's clear that I'll make some bets, I just learned they have sport bets too. That's great marketing move for them. Bitstarz lost all their credits though. I found this incident similar to Bitcoinlivebets.com. They refused to pay bonus prizes and then they became scam. That's a big warning for Bitstarz users.

Hi all,

I think our reputation on AskGamblers speak for itself. As someone stated earlier we've got a
9.13 out of 10 (based on 64 unique reviews) and are ranked #4 out of 1085 casinos.

Also, as mentioned earlier unfortunately this player broke the terms that he agreed to, and
unfortunately had to suffer the consequences for it. This has also been mentioned in Casinomeister
and AskGamblers where their admins and senior members are taking our side in this, which
is a clear no-brainer considering the rules were clearly stated and were breached.

I know it sucks to lose the money, but you've essentially broken terms that you agreed to, and
which is one of the most common terms out there. Again, it's not like we felt like removing some
money from your account and just did it, you broke the rules you agreed to. Therefore I'm not
entirely sure what the rant here is all about.

As also mentioned earlier, we confiscated the money, informed about the breaching of rules
and gave you another shot. The first bet you did was again over the limit, so I'm not sure what
to think about your playing. This time you were clearly aware about the term and you broke it again.

In conclusion, I'll let the reviews of the casino on AskGamblers speak for itself, as long as you stick
to the rules while playing at BitStarz, you're welcome to play without any issues. If you are unclear
about the rules, ask us and if you do not agree with the terms, we wish you the best of luck in another
casino.

Regards,

Mike


EDIT:

http://www.casinomeister.com/forums/showthread.php?t=73235&page=4
http://www.askgamblers.com/forum/topic/5958-bitstarz-removes-345-btc-balance-according-to-breaking-bonus-terms/

First of all you are keep going your unethical behaviour. You are still telling lies to community. Same lies. While bitcointalk community justifed me, gave red trust to you, everone claims that you are a scam casino, you are still trying to defend yourselves. What a scheme. You are still trying to defend your scammy behaviour.

No need to talk about askgamblers. Because they fully funded by you with your advertisements. It is really bullshit to expect sth from askgamblers.

In casinomeister, many community members had also justifed me. According to their terms about PAB, it may be understand to why they are not interested in with my complaint. If you are brave enough, please share vinylweatherman 's posts about your unethical business.

At the moment, everyone knows you are a scam casino. You can not do any business on bitcointalk anymore. You removed my balance without any reason. I never agreed on breaking rules. While you stated "advantage play" rule and i m fully right according to that terms.

You scammed me. You took red trust on here. Eveything is clear. So please just stop to defend yourselves. You are not a trustworthy and safe place to gambling. We have great sites like betking.io, we "bitcointalk community" do not need you.

I'd highly warn users to avoid bitstarz in all conditions. Do not play on bitstarz.

For the most part I agree with this but I wouldn't call it a straight up scam. But what I do agree is it's a bit weird to what extent they are trying to defend themselves. Correct me if I am wrong but earlier was mentioned the bonus bet limit only appears after claiming such a bonus. Wouldn't this be kind of an unethical way to just fool players who thought they are already up to date with the terms.

Is the bonus automatically applied?  Yes or No?

Then why do you even make it possible to bet that big with the bonus? I would honestly do the same as this guy without even realising it was wrong.
This is the first time I've heard of such a rule and I've played at quite a few online casino's

Bonuses from Welcome Package are automatically added to users account (users do not have to confirm that he agree with T&C for the particular bonus) in worthofyou case BitStarz added bonus to his account

I made account today and was placing 0.03 bets using bonus funds and lost, can I contact you to issue refund?

I was reading this thread with while eating popcorn and drinking soda but this post made me spit it all.
This is by far the most awesome promotional/kind/unexpected move I've seen in casino business so far.
Congratulations to worthyou and hats down to BetKing.io for capitalizing on this whole misunderstanding.

I've been in crypto world for 3 years now.


and i can say the only 2 people i trust in crypto gambling are Dean from betking and dooglus fom just dice


dooglus i could live without, but dean is solid


j/k

This is one awesome move!

Lately I'm totally disappointed from bitcoin world.

Betcoin.TM scammed me for ~8BTC (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1437638.0), few users fucked me on auctions and every second person is running a casino site now. Without any proof of solvency, without any idea how to manage it. And most of the sites have terrible support in best.

But this move from BetKing reruns the hope.

Because I believe the future in gambling is Bitcoin. Without limitations, without bullshits. But lately in my trust list are only BetKing, PrimeDice, JustDice and 2-3 bookies.

Fiat bookies are lightly fast limiting winning players, requiring 1000 of documents, Skrill and Neteller /they now are having one owner (http://www.financemagnates.com/forex/analysis/skrill-bought-by-rival-payments-provider-neteller-for-e1-1-billion/)/ have killing fees + exchange fees and so on. Withdraws are taking days.

Wish you a bright future in Bitcoin World!

It is good to see an honest casino.
I am not saying this to get BTC as I dont want any, but the same thing happened to me as OP, with 5 bitcoins.
I want to spread the word here.
What Bitstarz does is flag your withdrawal and just take it straight out of your account balance.
Basically they have many hidden rules, so everyone who plays is breaking one rule or another.
They enforce it only if you win. They block your withdrawal and send you an email saying 'sorry but you did XYZ, we took your winnings, good luck!"
Bitstarz is a scam 

Well hopefully people read bitstarz replies here and know that is exactly who they are dealing with.

The thing is that they flag withdrawals if its a certain % above your deposit.

Then they comb every single bet you make, trying to find ways to see if you broke rules.

They also attempt to hold your withdrawal for a long time, hoping you get tempted to keep betting. One of my withdrawals was held for 6 hours!

Now seeing it happen to many others users ITT has set me off to expose the psychopaths that run the bitstarz scam.

(last post on this)
The reason they do not enforce it in the software is because it will give you a chance to win, and no avenue for bitstarz to steal your winnings.

It goes against their interests to be up front about their rules.

The creepy part of the Bitstarz scam is they see nothing wrong with taking someones winnings. That is like the biggest cardinal rule of running a casino when you WIN that is your money. The ONLY way a casino is entitled to steal the winnings out of your hand is it's done through stealing or hacking.

That's it.

The fact they find reasons to take winnings straight out of players accounts, is an enormous betrayal of trust and every intelligent person who finds this thread will never deal there again.

It happened to me last month, it happened to him and many others ITT. Bitstarz are well aware of what they are doing, and the fact that they don't write it in the software, it shows they are making a lot of money off this scam as well as that they get sick pleasure out of it.

That sounds very upsetting. And if they don't want you to bet over 0.025 then why can't a message pop up saying "sorry max bet is 0.025" sounds like they just looking for excuses not to pay you.

Then maybe the website should throw an error exception instead of just allowing your to bet over 0.025 . That rule is only there to make excuses not to pay.  Think about it.

Good to see that there is still hope for Bitcoin gaming. I wish someone would have done this when Bitstarz scammed me out of 20 bitcoins the same way as worthyou lol.

That's total bullshit. I'm not using them anymore and nor should anyone else. Whynthe does it matter what you bet ? If you go all in and lose that's it. Ita much harder winning by using bigger bets then smaller ones so I have no idea what this casino is talking about. They just making excuses not to pay. Its fine when you losing money but as soon as you win they get so butthurt. Just wow.

It matters because the higher the bet, the bigger the Return to Player.

For example, a player plays a game with 5% house edge. There are 40 outcomes; multipliers (each with equal probability) - 38, 0, 0, 0, 0 ... 0. (high variance)
A player deposits 0.5, claims 100% bonus, goes YOLO. Repeats 40 times. He loses 39 times but wins once.
Total deposited : 20
Total cashout : 38 - (39 * 0.5 * 0.05) = 37.025
RTP : 185.125%

I don't agree that these terms are unreasonable, but in the interest of fairness, it is unprofessional for Bitstarz to remove the entire balance because the player made higher bets (less than 30% too) without being aware of the terms (they could at least mention it in the bonus/deposit page).

I think it's a lot more than unprofessional, it's unethical and scammy.

For instance, my site rules say you can't bet more than 1 BTC. I'm not comfortable with the variance of bets bigger than that (since our edge is so low). So what do we do? We don't allow people to make the bet. If you try, the server will reject the bet (regardless if it would've been a win or loss).  If it were Bitstarz they'd allow people to make the bet and then if person happened to win too much over the coarse of playing, check their history for rule violations and use that an excuse to seize the whole account (even if it wasn't material to the win)


As they've done it multiple times, and repeatedly defend that behavior -- I guess they've made a business decision to be a scammy casino.

I agree. It is unprofessional, unethical and scammy. ;(

WOW  :o

Blown away by BetKing here - amazing move!

WOW, betking paid 3.45 btc for a huge advertisement of his site. That site must be very legit.

It is one of the most trusted bitcoin casinos. I am sure he did not pay him for advertisement purposes.

That is a considerable amount to lose and surprised they did come to an agreement to atleast allow to take half of the balance and not take it all.
Very sad because now this casino will have a reputation that many will consider when they are looking to join a new casino site and will turn away instantly from this one when they see it.
Nobody would want to see themselves being a situation like this one.

That is really bad to remove your balance this way, they should pay player their winnings, I think best is to avoid Bitstarz after listening to so much bad review from many players.

Or you just play by the rules at Bitstarz. Every online casino has their own terms and conditions to abide by. If you are not willing to do so then you can't complain when they take back your balance due to breaking the terms set by that casino. It's pretty simple actually. And also don't use bonuses. That's where most of the problems occur. People get greedy though and take the bonus then overbet the terms allowed and come here crying when the casino revokes the balance and winnings.

I have trouble believing that a rational and impartial person could believe that it's ok for a casino to knowingly accept a bet that is "against the rules" which then they can use down the line to take the entire sum of a players money (even unrelated winnings and balance). The reality is players are never going to read every single dot point of the ToS, and if your UI allows them to make a certain type of bet, they will make that type of bet. None of the players are trying to defraud or do anything wrong, they're just trying to gamble and accidentally break these rules.

And if betting more than X is such a grave violation of the rules that it demands a player be punished by having their entire balance taken -- don't you think that bitstarz should add code to prevent players doing it? All this pain could simply be prevented with just two lines of code and it would never happen again. It doesn't even need to be handled gracefully, the server should just not process it.

But I think the real reason is pretty apparent, bitstarz wants players to break the rules so that down the line if they win money can they confiscate all the players money and cite their ToS.

Yeah, that is some shady shit.
They let you bet an amount, accept the bet, knowing that its breaking the rules, so they can take your money.

I would definitely avoid this site.
If they are pulling things like this, there is no telling what else is going on behind the scenes.
It's poor management, rules, and user interface at best. At worst its total fraud.

I'll just give this a bump.
I was just browsing through the gambling section and came across this.
I read the whole thread. I actually had no idea there where issues like this with Bitstarz.

That is a well-deserved red trust.     

same thing i read all of the pages it only takes a minute so im impressed betking actually gave his 3 btc bitstarz also scammed 20 btc from a guy here in bitcointalk it seems they changed their rules

Why did bitstarz casino accept bet higher than 0.025 if they are against bitstarz casino TOS?
If bitstarz accept any bet higher than 0.025 that means TOS is not valid. Second, if you accept bet that means you(Bitstarz casino) agrees that player can put bet higher in TOS(Because you took players bet as valid in that moment he put that bet on table).

You don't have any warnings for maximum bets, and you don't have any restrictions in your games, so ALL BETS ARE VALID!

In other hand, you can change your TOS in next 5 min, and write there: bets higher than 0.00000001BTC are against our rules, and in that point you can clear all users accounts!


Imagine, you walk into a real(not online) casino, put your bets, win some money, and than bouncer come and kick you out of casino saying you bet more money than its in their TOS!

In all this all I can add is, bitstarz exploited the terms to the disadvantage of Op which is not good from the point I'm looking at it BITSTARZ owe him to install a notification that he is going above the limit not to hide inside a tiny term that even 99% of the players there does not even bother to read. And good for you to have exploited it but you made more damage than what you withheld from him and I am sure it has cost you a lot...

they cheating players i gettin every time some promotion mail for deposite bonus and after i deposite i got nothing just live support say they not send that mail and my country is restricted for eny bonus i got more times bonus but they stop my country for deposite bonus but they continue to send mails and many time i deposite but this is end for my deposite

GET €50 OR 250 mBTC!
TRY OUR GAMES RISK-FREE!
GET UP TO 250 mBTC EXTRA!
GET €50 OR 250 mBTC!
Happy 4th of July!
MASSIVE VALUE!
...
if they read this i can print screen my inbox.STOP SENDING PROMOTIONS MILS IF U DONT GIVE IT


 

You are "happy" to answer questions. FYI, your victims need ACTION and not happily-answered questions, you fraudster!

Pay your customers and stop stealing from them! Aren't you ashamed of putting food in your stomach (and those of your family, if you have any) using money you defrauded your customers of?

If you want to keep this friendly, compensate your victims, you fraudster!

Those are deceptive reviews. You are a fraudster of the worst caliber.

I urge everyone to cease and desist from playing or injecting bets on this fraudster's so-called casino. It's not a casino. It's a website designed to scam and cheat.

Another case when ToS of gambling service means nothing and can be changed at will by site's owner. I wonder if bad publicity and negative reviews are worth that 3.45 BTC.
Because money can be earned back, but trust is a lot harder to earn and potentially could be lost forever.

Bitstarz again, this casino scammed so many loyal customers and winners. Screw itself.  >:(

this is a big scam because they violates own rule . i don't think it os a rule of maximum betting amount . if maximum betting amount is 0.025btc then why thier program of site allow you to bet . i think it is totally a scam of bitstrad .

Hi there,

I'm not sure what your definition of a "scam" is, but if you break
the rules that you've agreed to, that's a very interesting choice of words,
and an outright slanderous claim.

This is one of the most common bonus rules in any casino and we remind players
on the chat when they come ask, and the terms and conditions of the bonus are
displayed in multiple places of the website.

To make a technical implementation about a limit takes a lot of time and resources
but it's in the making. The pop-up functionality won't be able to get sorted in the mobile
in the near function as it's not supported, but the desktop pop-up warning for going over
the limit will be faster for us to develop.

Mike

So if the players loses his money breaking the bonus terms? Will the casino freeze the player account and offered to refund back his balance and tell him about the terms and conditions?

This is scam, when players wins, they uses terms and conditions to prevent payout to customer.

Lol they are still trying to defend themselves while %90 of bitcointalk players claim them as "scam".

So left this scam casino alone with its negative feedback and play any other "reliable" casino.

I find this really hard to believe. You already have the means to check if someone exceeded the max bet (which you use for taking all their money). As a coder, who's worked on a handful of gambling sites -- I don't believe it's going to take more than a handful of lines of code to enforce the condition on the server in real-time, and spit out an ugly error. This is something that should've been from day 1 anyway.

And if it *really* was so hard to enforce a max-bet limit, if you guys had an iota of ethics you would choose between:

a) Giving players a free pass, until you finished the enforcement implementation
b) Revert all bets that exceeded the max-bet be them win or loses, and tell the player about the rule


But instead you've used selective-enforcement to fleece your customers, even for unrelated funds. The scariest part is, I worry that you guys are so damaged as to genuinely believe that it's ok to take all of someones money because they didn't read your terms of service and unknowingly bet too much.

The rule is bullshit, but you didn't make it and I doubt you (you, as in Bitstarz) could change it even if you wanted.  Right?
Am I wrong  or would a decision like that be made by the same people that are running many other casinos ( Direx N.V. or Softswiss maybe?, or are they the same people?  )

It may seem like a normal rule every casino has to you, but I can assure you that you will only find it at unregulated casinos, or casinos that might as well be unregulated from a players perspective.

Let's just assume that "Bitstarz" really wants to be an honest Casino and for some reason they aren't allowed to change this max bet rule.

If they were to take the following three steps, I think they would have a valid argument that what their doing isn't wrong or require any (omg) technical implementation.

1.) Tell every single player that violates the rule.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but, if a player deposits $500, receives a bonus, and loses it playing $10 hands of blackjack, you don't bother to let him know his $500 was torched the minute the first card was dealt, do you?

What if he does it 20 more times over the next year before finally getting lucky and clearing the bonus with a balance of $5k?
See where I'm going with this?  See how fucked up it is to do this to your players?


2.) Put the same amount of effort into making sure players are aware your deposit bonuses as they are this max bet rule.   

Right now a lawyer could easily spend hours studying your terms and conditions and not even be aware this rule exists.

Don't believe me?

Scroll down to the bottom of your site (where the t&c are traditionally found)
Click on terms and conditions and read the whole thing.
https://www.bitstarz.com/terms
https://i.gyazo.com/52fa2d293b2dce9d4c20e7a843708691.png
Wow, you're fast!, that was 4,506 words.
The word "bonus" was used 17 times.  
No mention of max bet rule though. Not even a link to somewhere else that mentions it.

Maybe in the FAQ that has a separate "Bonus Section"?
Nope, not even under FAQ: Bonuses (https://gyazo.com/6fe46d649f99d89514a2c1c3ab1d1010) ("Why are you keeping my money?" might be a good one to add)

To find this max bet rule, one must click on "Terms and Condition" that's found in the promo advertisements.  (Not the bottom of the page)
These seperate T&C are 2,059 words long, the rule can be found around word #1,578.

(25 mbtc is like 14 euro btw)

Also you're banners need to looks something like this:

https://i.gyazo.com/c12d2d3b3cdc8b92bbff3462628b02eb.png


PS: There's a bunch of other little scummy  non-transparent tactics I found if you're interested.  Other casinos start ignoring me about now so, thought I'd ask.

Well findings, they claimed max wager of X; X is not told to everyone, so next time they can change to 20mbtc or 10mbtc, if people have won 50 btc. Bitstarz, it is serious fraud issue, you fraud us, fraud =scam, so answer of your question is here.

Dude no.

No.

Read the post, not just the pictures please.  I just put X because I was lazy at the moment.  I don't think they've ever changed the actual maximums.

I edited that Banner, this is what the original looks like at https://www.bitstarz.com/promotions

https://i.gyazo.com/e771718a12174b7b257c817be0dd04ce.png

Hi there,

Again, this is one of the most common rules at online casinos. I would recommend
checking the terms and conditions at other online casinos and I'm sure you'll see the same one.

We do our best to inform players about this rule, but you'd be surprised to hear that ways
that we and many are obvious when it comes to displaying this, there's always going to
be players not noticing it.

Again, we always write out that terms and conditions apply, remind people on the chat when
we're discussing bonuses, etc.

Mike

Hi again,

Here's the rule:

http://screencast.com/t/R30vMvXXl

It can be found here:

http://screencast.com/t/u8LITm1F

And here:

http://screencast.com/t/QPxaGmm8Zai

And here:

http://screencast.com/t/BYqArtEf

And here:

http://screencast.com/t/ugdsbxsOZos

There are many more spots, but you get the point.

You also have to realize that we cannot type out all the terms and conditions on the
promotions page as it will look like a big mess, hence having a terms and conditions
link in a lot of places on the page.

And even though you can always argue that this particular point should be visible,
everyone with a rule that relates specifically to their case would wish the same thing.

Mike

Mike,

How many casinos can you name that have this rule and aren't using softswiss software?  I'll give you a list 10x as long of casinos that don't and would lose their license if they did.

The rule exists only to be violated.  It doesn't protect the casino from anything, it does create a potential vulnerability in players for you to exploit.  It's predatory.

In the short run Im sure it seems like a brilliant idea.  But it's not only damaging your rep, it's turning people off from gambling for bitcoin and even just bitcoin.

I know you didn't write the rules or decide where they are displayed, but please, pay attention to this:

Unless a player has already landed on https://www.bitstarz.com/promotions, any hyperlink within the site titled "Terms & Conditions" will bring them to: https://www.bitstarz.com/terms
(this is the 4,000+ word version that does not mention the max bet rule)

If a player navigates to https://www.bitstarz.com/promotions, then clicks on "Terms & Conditions" next to a specific promotion (not on the bottom of the page) they will remain on https://www.bitstarz.com/promotions and a popup with BONUS TERMS AND CONDITIONS will appear.  (it's 2,000+ words, with this rule located on the bottom third)

Your promotional emails link directly to https://www.bitstarz.com/bonus-terms-and-conditions, which is the same as the pop-up one would get from https://www.bitstarz.com/promotions

So...Some of your examples below, like the Terms link when signing up, will never bring you to the max bet rule.  And some of them will bring only those who have already navigated to /promotions page.

Example, before signing up, a user checks out terms and conditions:
(lands on https://www.bitstarz.com/terms reads 4,000 words, is not informed of max bet)
https://i.gyazo.com/39c52787b2ac15d383a19e834f054d38.gif


PS: Some of Your Betsoft Progressive Jackpots are fraudulent (For example, 1% is getting taken by Betsoft while GlamLife, Some of the Larger Greedy Goblins and Bad Girl Jackpots are unwinnable, also Pocketdice just scammed a player for BTC102, you should drop them both as providers.  I'll be back to explain soon, or you could research it yourself.

Hi there,

Fair enough, we're willing to do what we can to make this rule more visible, so
we'll be adding it to the deposit page, so you can see it when you deposit, and
also the general terms area.

We're also working on a technical solution for this of course.

Any other place?

Mike

Hi there,

In terms of casinos with a max bet rule.

Here are some:

LeoVegas

The maximum bet allowed when using a bonus (until wagering requirements are met) is 50 kr per bet.
Failure to follow this may result in forfeiting any winnings.

RedBet

7.8 The highest wager allowed when using bonus money, until the turnover requirement has been fulfilled, is 5 euro (50 SEK) per spin and 50 eurocent (5 SEK) per betting line. For the purposes of this requirement, a spin is defined as a spin on a game machine, a lottery ticket or a corresponding game in the casino.

SuperLenny

The maximum bet per spin when playing with a bonus is €5/$6/£4 per bet line (or equivalent in any other currency) until the play through requirements of the bonus have been met. This includes double up wagers after the game round has been completed. For example, wagering winnings from X game round on red/black.

SpinEmpire

The maximum bet per spin when playing with a bonus is, unless stated otherwise, €5 per bet (or equivalent in any other currency) until the wagering requirements of the bonus have been met. This includes double-up wagers after the game round has been completed. For example, wagering winnings from X game round on red/black.

YakoCasino

3. The maximum bet per spin when playing with a bonus is €5/5CHF/50NOK/50SEK/$7/R90 per bet (or equivalent in any other currency) until the wagering requirements of the bonus have been met. Should the customer exceed the maximum bonus bet allowed, the bonus balance together with any winnings accumulated will be automatically forfeited.

NoxWin

  4. In the interest of fair gaming and prevention of bonus abuse there is a maximum allowed stake per bet until the wagering requirement has been met. The maximum stake per spin is €6 and €0.5 per bet line. If the player’s account is in a different currency the equivalent amount in that currency applies. Calculate your currency equivalent here.


In terms of the issue with Betsoft, we'll have to look into that further.

Mike

sounds bad if it happened, but I know the site looks good and great

There's nothing wrong about a max-bet rule, the problem is not enforcing it on your server and then using it against players when they want to withdraw. As TwitchySeal aptly described it, it's a predatory rule that's designed to be broken. You've unfairly taken thousands upon thousands of dollars of players money because of it.

If it's really so hard for you to enforce a max-bet on your server,  there's a simple fix. Every night do a db query, search for everyone who violated the rule and refund that bet (be it a winning or losing bet). Now it's no longer predatory, as you're not raping people who make a mistake or otherwise didn't closely read the ToS.

Wow you did change a few things, and you haven't resorted to spamming huge promos images and telling other users to "ignore the trolls".  That's good.

I really think you should feel obligated to be actively informing players who have violated the max bet rule as soon as possible.  I can't imagine how shitty it must feel to be that guy who fires 15 or 20 deposits at you before finally winning something decent only to find out that he literally never had a chance because he was betting 6 euro per spin.  (The same goes for the guy who gets a withdraw rejected on his second deposit)

I was def surprised to see that those Malta Casinos were able to use the same max bonus terms, there are certainly more than I thought, but I wasn't able to check them all bc of my location.

Two of the sites you mentioned basically said they don't enforce this rule unless they believe there is some sort of fraud.

https://i.gyazo.com/05b0d549c328925d2a007205bdef173f.png

By the way, whos call is it to enforce this rule?

I can tell you guys are set up a little different than most of the others, how different is it though?



Did you drop Glam Life? 
Could you tell Betsoft to fuck off if you wanted to?

Hi there,

Well, we always like to hear both sides of every story. Wherever you go online, there is going to
be people who uses reason and people who don't. But I think it's extremely important to address
genuine concerns from players, and we do listen.

And we try to do that as well, but one thing you have to understand is that it might sound easy
to immediately inform someone about a terms being violated, but it's harder to get things like
that technically implemented, especially if you're a boutique casino (and a bigger casino too for
that matter), but we're trying to do our best to get it in place as soon as we can.

In terms of the Max bet rule, those are just the casinos I found from a quick google search,
there's plenty more of them out there. I just wanted to give an example that we're not alone
in those terms and put it there just try do our best to screw people over, which is obviously
not our intention. In terms of who's the one making the call, it would be a team leader or
manager's decision.

Well, haha, we could technically. We're the ones having their games, and if we don't like
them, we could say that, although I'd try to be a little more diplomatic about it. But yes
we could technically close them out. But again, I hope that this comes across in a good way;
I want to hear both sides of the story in all cases before I jump to any conclusions, and that
goes for everything.

Just as some call people trolls, or some say that casino are scammers, at least we can play
with open cards and try to make sense of things. The more information that is out there means
that people can make more educated decisions. If all correct info is out there and people don't
like BitStarz, that's totally fine with me, you can't like everything. But I think everyone and every
place deserves a fair shot at explaining themselves.

I promise to let you know when I have info regarding Glam Life and Betsoft, but I want to hear
what they have to say too!

I appreciate you keeping a nice tone in the feedback, and let me know if there's anything else you
need answered!

Mike

Clearly Bitstarz made a huge mistake! Again!

Shit happens, we all know that, but this is a scam! They allowed "worthyou" to place a bet and when he won something they confiscated his money.
Wait the minute, what would happen in case "worthyou" lost again? Nothing probably!
Mike from bitstarz is just repeating himself, rules, rules... you had high roller now you don't, people are reading this and we will not come to play on your site cause some hidden rules and how you treat your players.

And your constant repeating other casinos is funny after we saw what BetKing did. Congratulations! That is a way for attracting good players, everything can be solved nicely. But mike from bitstarz confiscated money, and said "its our rule go fuck yourself, other casinos have same rule, we allowed you to place bet but when we saw you won we will show our terms and conditions"

Big respect for Betking! And one more big minus for bitstarz!

"But I think everyone and every
place deserves a fair shot at explaining themselves."  You confiscated money that
someone earned, did you give "worthyou" a chance!? If you were smart you should make a deal with him, explain to him rules and YOUR mistake, cause YOU (read casino) allowed that bet!!!! That is end of story, your fault!!!! You should apologize to this player and give him money, solve your problems and limit bets for next time!

Hi there,

If you're breaking the rules of a site where you've accepted the terms in the first place, you might have to ask yourself who
you should be mad at. I'm not trying to be arrogant here, I'm just telling you how it is.

There are still rules that needs to be followed, and as explained, it's extremely hard to get a technical solution in place to prevent
this. You can't prevent someone from opening duplicate accounts, that's something you find out after it has been created, and
it's just an example of things that you have to work out retroactively.

If you do not agree with the max bet rule, then that's totally ok. All we ask is that the players of BitStarz abide to the rules
they accept. If you don't wish to accept the rules, then I wish you all the best in another casino that suits you better.

Mike

Here is a legitimate question - How many times has a player lost his money or a lot of it, had a bonus and bet over the maximum allowed and had his deposit refunded because he broke the terms?

Probably never. If your going to keep your rule like that, and not add a limit, make sure players who lose that break the rule get their deposit back or the bet refunded (win or loss).

Why did this get locked?

You ought to prove that it is a standard practice :P to take the entire balance of the players in these cases.





Yeah that is exactly how it works.




There are so many ways to make things fair, why do you ignore them?

"You ought to prove that it is a standard practice :P to take the entire balance of the players in these cases."

Hi there,

The standard practice there is to remove the balance and leave the player with the initial deposit at the
casinos there that I'm familiar with personally.


"There are so many ways to make things fair, why do you ignore them?"

We're doing our best to make people aware of this rule. I'm not sure if "fair" is the word I'd use
here. We've got a rule on the site, which is very much common in a lot of casinos online, and we
do our best to make people aware of it until we get a technical solution. You can call that unfair
if you wish, but the player also has a responsibility to read up on the terms and conditions
if he/she wishes to get a bonus.

Kind Regards,

Mike

The rule is in place to protect the casino from being exploited.

When Bitstarz enforces it on players that have not given any reason to believe they are maliciously exploiting the site, Bitstarz is the only party guilty of abuse.

It's not about whats fair and not fair.  It's about being the most successful casino possible.  Right?

Well, I'm telling you...this type of scummy behavior is damaging the entire industry.  Go ask some strangers walking down the street what they have heard about bitcoin casinos if you don't believe me.

"Other casinos do it" is bullshit excuse. 

Do you want to be like those other casinos with scummy terms that are enforced or no?

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you let Softswiss or some other third party set things up and you aren't aware that there are so many (like the bonus terms being buried up till last week when you moved them.)

Why do you think they decided to put this list of restricted games in this particular order?
Answer: Confusing list increases the chance of a player not realizing they are trying to clear bonus on restricted game. Result:  Overall Cashout Rate Decreases.
https://i.gyazo.com/01708f3f0902bd0b14973916fa0bf600.png

Oh look, a term that gives you the right to void all winnings if an audit fails...which could mean anything...
https://i.gyazo.com/26adef183a00cac2c4f90c59196bcb28.png

Oh look a rule that gives you the right to void all winnings if a player does what 99% of all players do (use some sort of gambling strategy)
https://i.gyazo.com/c94fd4be2eefafd95f0df75a853941e2.png


Oh look a rule that was added by betsoft AFTER a player won a 500 bitcoin jackpot on freespins, and also demonstrates how clueless the people managing Betsoft really are:
https://gyazo.com/27de72debc7f46bfa0ccc9f40bc59cfa

(read this post if you don't know what I'm talking about: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1236667.msg15426182#msg15426182 ) and then go look at all your betsoft games with progressives that can only be won during Bonus Rounds.

Another predatory condition that exists to help you increase your profits over the standard HE by that much more.

https://i.gyazo.com/e7cd32695f49da83128e4a4183847c2a.png

I got a few more but I'll save them for later.

Hi there,

To be completely honest with you, a casino earns more on keeping a player
long term than short term gains. But as a casino we have to protect
ourselves from abuse in any way, but I hear what you're saying. The problem
is to make that determination if someone is abusing or not, you will have to
look a a multiple of factors.

If you wish to discuss this further, PM me your number and we can talk it
out over on the phone. I'd be happy to personally answer any questions you might
have!

Mike

If I deposit something, take a bonus, start losing, all I need to do is break the terms to get deposit back?... Nope. What you mean is if the player wins, you give him a nasty surprise tell he broke the terms he had agreed to and if makes a mess give him his deposit back. free bonus, free spins? nothing back and if he loses, nothing back.
Sounds player friendly?




Only now. A lot of damage has already been done.

I'm referring to matters before you made the terms more transparent.




Terms are single sided. meant to protect you. not give you a means to fraud unsuspecting players. The terms are acceptable. The way you enforce it is not. You are not expected to literally enforce it.

Do you really believe all those players who bet more than this 25 mBTC while having an active bonus is trying to abuse the bonus and rip you off?

Hi there,

We have the terms and conditions visible in so many places on the website,
in every email you receive, on the promotions page, etc. But however many
time we place it, there's always going to be someone claiming we're not clear
enough, it's a matter of opinion

So, your take on laws and rules are that they're there, but they're not supposed
to be enforced? That sounds quite contradictory.

We do not think that, and not everyone is getting their money confiscated, many
of them are getting their winnings. But the ones we deem have tried to abuse
us will have to be dealt with in a different way.

Regards,

Mike

No matter how you want to try as much as possible to do damage control or public relations, what has happened has happened and I am so sure you have lost more than what was confisticated from 'worthy of you" in which the fault is on you because you allow this matter fester up to this point where it could have been settled and everyone would have moved on. The terms are there but I am sure 99% dont even bother to read it before accepting to it and because youre also in business you accommodate us to ply even though you know we havent read it. The rules are there but they can bend in situation like this because what will be lost will actually be more than what is to be protected...

Hi there,

If a person don't take the responsibility to read them, then unfortunately it's on them at the end
of the day, the player has the highest responsibility here. We try to make it as simple as possible and
we're not impossible when it comes to letting things like that slip if we deem that it was an honest mistake.

Again, we have let things like this slip in the past, but it comes down to a case to case thing.

Mike

bitstars.net: Serious question. Why don't you enforce all the conditions of your ToS on the server? Most of them are absolutely trivial to do so (e.g. max bets) or  "Sorry, you can only claim the deposit bonus 4 times in a row! Next deposit doesn't allow you to claim it").


The fact that you have:
a) Terms that are easy to enforce from your side, but rely on the player to be careful to not do so
b) If the terms are violated (which can be completely accidental), it works out hugely in your favor.

leads to the inescapable conclusion that you want people to break them  (otherwise you would spend half an hour coding)  so in the off-chance they win some real money, you don't need to pay

In  other words, Bitstarz earns more from players that are happy and continue to deposit than from players who stop depositing because you refused to pay them.

Good for you. But really you shouldn't be earning anything from cancelled withdraws.  

A= [(Total Bet*HouseEdge) - Total Bonuses]
B= Cancelled Withdraws
C= Annual Profit

A + B = C

If C=100, what are A and B at Bitstars?

Ethically, you should be doing everything you can to keep B as close to 0 as possible.

Casinos (both online and B&M)regulated by the NJDGE (New Jersey), B always = 0, When funds are seized from players (Banned players, underage players, cheaters etc.) they are surrendered to the state.  This rule is in place to protect players.

When pokerstars seizes player funds they  are donated to responsible gaming charities. (They are still criticized for receiving tax incentives on these donations)

It's terribly obvious that Softswiss terms and conditions are written in a way to make B as high as possible while still keeping a majority of players happy and willing to return to deposit more.

Also, if a player deposits BTC1 and receives a BTC1 bonus, clears the bonus and then has their BTC10 cashout rejected and balance reset to BTC1, you still took BTC9 from him.  It was nice of you to give him BTC1 since you didn't have to.  But all you're really doing is choosing to seize "only" 90% of what you could.  If a player is guilty of a violation serious enough to justify not paying him, their entire balance should be seized and account closed.



Would you be willing to come on a podcast to discuss it on Wednesday night?  http://pokerfraudalert.com/forum/radio.php (don't let the name scare you, its more about online gambling in genral - not just the bad and the owner is reasonable)

No. I remember quite well that the terms page is the only place you have mentioned the max bet rule till a while back.




I am talking about terms on a website, not laws. What i mean is for example, as TwitchySeal pointed out above, you have 'the right to void all winnings' of players who use 'strategies'. Enforce that and Bitstarz is a scam.

You had also withheld the balance of a player, because he could not provide details of a year old fiat deposit of a small amount because your 'terms' justify that.




Yeah? May be you should start thinking from your players' perspective?

Hi there,

Again, we have a big set of terms and conditions and some of them are there to prevent abuse, but
that does not per definition mean that everyone out there is out to abuse us, therefore we do let
some things slip if we make the call that the player genuinely made a mistake.

Again, as a casino, it's better to keep a customer over time and on top of that, and I've repeated myself
I don't know how many times now, we try to put them as clearly and remind as much as possible,
but it doesn't matter how many times you do that, someone will always forget/ignore/miss the terms
and conditions.

Mike

Hi there,

The Jersey way sounds quite reasonable in my opinion and like quite the fair way to go, but then I'd
recommend presenting that opinion to the other license issuers.

And as for the Podcast, why not? I'm sure there'll be plenty of Bitcointalk guys who want to tune in!

Mike

Hi there,

Regarding the fiat money being withheld for not sending in documents, yes, that's something we are obligated to do
in accordance to our license issuer, it's not our rule and has to be enforced, if a casino does not that they're
in risk of losing their license. So if you have concerns about that, I'd recommend contacting the Government of Curacao's
Gambling Commission. If you want to use a card but don't want to send in a copy of it, I'd recommend not using it.

Also, for your information, the player sent the documents in and was paid in full within 24 hours, but maybe you missed
that one. The player also went on recommending BitStarz again and is still an active player in the casino.

Mike

That's awesome, just sent the owner a message. Will confirm when I know what's up. (He's this guy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Todd_Witteles))

Cool man! Just send me a PM :)

I personally do not have any issues with your terms or fiat deposits or your casino, I lose/lost nothing. All I mean is your competition is better.

Yes, I am fully aware of that. I also know that scared off some of your players who had previous fiat deposits, cards or whatever. You have taken care of the making terms more visible part, but you still have not fairly compensated those players and have not done anything to enforce the terms from your side as RHaver suggests. Take his advice.



which is why you need to do it. :)

Hi there,

That's so good about the selection of casinos we've got out there, I mean, it's all capitalism, right? If you do
not like BitStarz, I'm thrilled you've found another casino that fits your needs. So I wish you all the best there :)

Well, that might be the case, you're right, but we cannot bend the legislation that way, that has to be a question
for the legislator of the specific jurisdiction and we're simply following the regulation in place. I'm sure there's some
who don't like the verification part, but we're simply following the law here.

Even if you put terms all over the page, there'll still be people arguing that if there's no technical limitation in place,
we still "accepted the bet" and the information on the site doesn't matter. I'm sorry, but we can only do so much to
try to get the info out there. The technical implementation is coming, we actually had a developer meeting today
regarding that, so don't worry :)

Mike

About these rules you have to follow, are they made public anywhere?  Are there any that protect the players?

The whole point of verifying a player should be to make sure that they aren't underage, previously banned or a using fraudulent funds, right?

If that were your primary concern, you would be verifying all your players during the registration process. 

If you think maximizing deposits and minimizing cashouts is more important though, you would allow anyone deposit and redeposit as many times as they like, and only consider verification when a cashout is requested.

Hey,
The rules are all right. What is questionable is that you did not ask for any verification when the deposit was made or on the corresponding cashout, but when he wanted to cashout a a much larger amount almost a year later.

I will look forward to the technical implementation.

Thank you

Hi there,

I know it sounds weird, I agree with you. But most of the cashouts are processed automatically so we don't even
notice them going out, and as your cashout was bigger than usual it got stuck in our system so we had to
manually push it through, that's when we noticed it. Again, not doing that just to be mean, I promise.

Thank you, so do I, trust me!

Mike

Dear all, today (27/10) i encountered bitstarz's bonus of death and although i do not like the way being handled, still have to accept it and have my 3btc taken back. None nevertheless, with my balance 1.04+btc asking for withdraw, see if i will encounter any issue with my newly registered account (23/10) without any other form of deposit except btc. I will give credit when is due... Email confirming new and never used before address already confirmed, waiting for processing... Update you guys when i have anything from bitstarz...

Alright mike, why didn't you let this guy slide?




What's the thought process when deciding who gets to keep their winnings a who's winnings become Bitstarz revenue.

Assuming this guy is telling the truth about having 3 bitcoin confiscated, your bonus of death rule just added 3 btc to your revenue.  We need to start keeping track here...

Like i said before, letting some slide seems like the obvious best strategy for you to confiscate as much as possible...depending on which ones you let slide.

I suppose all we can do as players is keep telling you how scummy it is.  over and over.  

Just seems like very little of this is making sense. They're handling this like complete amateurs in my opinion, failing to handle this like professionals. Just based on that I'd just leave this site be and not play at all. Of course a ton of sites have such rules but the way they are enforced at BitStarz is just nuts.

The sad thing is, Bitstarz probably deserves more trust than any other softswiss casino that I've come across...

They're that bad? Great thing I haven't played much at those sites... Quite sad indeed

yeah.  for example:
satoshigames.io - doxed a player and trolled him hard for exploiting a bonus glitch https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1553184.msg16130930#msg16130930
fun-casino - took months to convince their site wasn't decentralized or provably fair and they still advertise it like that other forums https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1522493.new#new


and they are all slowly collecting dox from any player that has a decent sized cashout or no deposit cashout + have millions usd worth of betsofts fake progressives - disaster in the making

Unbelievable. Site owners doxinh players? What kind of madness is that. Makes me lose faith. Just proves how it's important to stay alert and careful. Never blindly trust anything. I've even started to read the terms when I register sites. Didn't feel the need for that in the past.

Did mike get tagged out?

https://i.gyazo.com/4a65f36fffde950f2783da64cddfb753.png

update as promised: request withdraw approved and after one night semi-sleepless night (dont know why my eyes dont stay shut after 3.30am), requested amount got credited into my wallet. I checked my document required by kyc (uploaded same day on my registration) and still pending... glad the withdraw when smoothly.

regards to continue playing at Bitstarz, to be honest, after so much hype on this 'bonus of death' and some other withdraw (and missing/stolen issue) read here and other sites, i hardly having any confident to play again, not knowing if i am the next victim, although i felt my play there was lucky... got introduced by askgambler and tried but ended in semi happy way.

i have nice experience with the game i played with bitstarz and until such negative feedback is resolved, i dont think i will come back. I will be watching this thread closely.

i am newbie by the way :)

you are lucky if you withdrew and not scammed by them but dont push your luck much there are many trusted casinos around and you can easily find them via this forum try them not this one

Nice post, I think most players will be able to relate one way or another.

I hope Bitstarz pays the most attention to this part:


This is standard reaction for players who win a lot of money.  Especially new players.  It's not any one casinos fault, it's the fault of all casinos that do something scummy (like your max bet rule) and then justify it by saying "he lots of other casinos do it"

It doesn't have to be like this.  The money in a players account doesn't belong to you until they lose it. 

Even though there's nobody to fine you or shut you down if you steal it, every time you don't pay a player it will cost you eventually.  Avoid bonus abuse by making bonuses that cant be abused instead of abusing players.

Hi there,

Again, there's a reason we have a max bet rule, and there's a reason other ones have it as well,
which we've discussed in this thread numerous times.

And again, we are getting a technical solution for this, it's just taking time to get it developed
but it's underway. That means that we'll be the first to actually have a technical solution for
the max bet rule, as far as I'm aware, and this problem won't happen.

Mike

Still here :) that email was changed over a week ago. You won't get
rid of me that easy ;)

Mike

The reason for the max bet rule is that you think it's more profiltable.  Period.

I'm telling you it really pisses players off.  It makes players lose trust in you , bitcoin and online gambling - and with good reason.

You shouldn't take one of your customers money unless you're damn sure they are guilty of something serious.  Doesn't matter if it's 1 satoshi or BTC20  Doesn't matter if you gave them a bonus or not. Don't take someones money unless you are sure they are guilty. 

If a single player has their funds taken by you that had no malicious intentions, you failed.  If you don't do everything in your power to prevent it from happening again.  You're scummy. 

Hi there,

You can of course believe whatever you like, that's up to you. I believe we've given
our side of the story and then it's up to people to make up their own minds.

Yeah we figured you think so already as you've mentioned it a few times, have
a great weekend man.

Mike

Seal,

I'm all for calling out scummy casinos and believe me theres many of them online. But you are going over the line here with Bitstarz. As you know probably the worst of all online casinos is BTC Casino. Bitstarz is one of the decent more reputable bitcoin casinos. Yes they have a max bet term however for bitcoin players that amount has always been .025btc. In dollar value that has been $15-17 bet given the BTC price. To me thats more than a fair bet to limit players on. Granted this .025 was adopted way back when BTC price was around $200 which reflected a more industry standard $5 max bet term. The fact is they haven't changed it even though the price of BTC keeps rising. I have no issues with them having this rule in place as for 95%+ of most gamblers who take the welcome bonus or any other deposit bonus DO NOT bet more than $15 per spin on the slots. Only a super high roller would be placing bets like this and most of those are educated enough that they wouldn't take a bonus. Mike's already pointed out several well-known huge online casinos that have these same max bet terms. Why are you not going on a true casino forum such as Casinomeister and blasting them?

I don't play on Bitstarz often but when I have they have always paid fast and I have never had a issue. If I'm going to play somewhere with a bonus though I will play at a casino with zero bet/game restrictions and there are a few of them around. But if I want to play without a bonus I rotate Bitstarz in occasionally.

Bitstarz is definitely better than many and I'm not calling them a scam, but the reality is that it's very possible for a player, especially a new player, to sign up for one of these sites without any malicious intentions and have a huge amount of money taken from them.   This is bad for everyone.

The fact that they are only letting slide actually makes it worse if they are letting the small ones slide and taking the big ones, which I suspect is the case.

Also, fyi, there are plenty of bitcoin sites out there that are doing very well and have never seized a single satoshi.

Check out RHavers site, almost $30 million usd worth of bitcoin wagered in last 30 days.

No bonuses, instant payout, fully transparent, no bullshit.  (sorry to sound shilly, just making a point)

The way they take the balance from players sure sounds fishy. In my opinion because they haven't made it blocked by software to make "illegal" bets, they shouldn't make players suffer from not reading the terms completely. Doesn't even sound shilly. You made a good point and I agree completely.

'Check out RHavers site...' i really googled before i asked... May i know which url? Pardon me for newbie questions ☺

One thing i dont know that you are telling that you have mentioned in the rule of terms and condition of how much maximum a players should play, and if they are not reading the terms and condition that becomes the fault by the gambler(player) side.

When you have the maximum limit then why dont you put that maximum and minimum in your betting slot itself why will the gambler(player) will go and read the full rule books.

It is from your side that you have to maintain the maximum and minimum betting in your own site so that who ever is gambling can know by putting betting bitcoin so that if he/she is betting higher then the maximum limit then that game should not run and should give warning of bet going above maximum limit.

This way the gambler(players) will get caution and they wont be able to bet above maximum limit and this way both of them (the site and the gambler(players)) are getting saved by unnecessary problems.

if they do that they cant steal money from players as masked as bet max rule which is in their long long tos which they know most of the players will not read it so they letting players to bet over max and if they win bitscams stealing

I'm sure Mike has the data but how many players are actually betting over $15USD a spin on the slots and are on a bonus to break the max bet rule?  Too many bitcoin nerds in the thread here that have no understanding really of online casinos and most won't ever get a clue or they simply responding only to shill for their sig. Mike has pointed out this is fairly common amongst the biggest online casinos to have max bet rules. AFAIK most of them have control over settings of the slots by Microgaming and NetEnt to control bet settings if a player is on a bonus. You hit the max bet button by mistake and you're on a deposit bonus with terms then youre fucked. It's that simple.  I've seen it MANY times in the past on Casinomeister a player loses his winnings because he broke one of the terms and conditions set forth by the casinos. They make the rules its up to the player to make sure they are following them and that usually involves the player getting deep into EVERY term and condition on the website they choose to play. I'm a seasoned veteran of online play and any new casino I think about playing at I go through the terms and conditions meticulously. Players get greedy and want that 100-1000% bonus or whatever the casino is offering to get them to sign up and then don't pay any attention to the terms and conditions and spin away. Only after they accrued a big balance and broke a term do they come crying on the forums how the casino screwed them.

I've been trtying to pry it out of him without success.

I want to know

-How many players have had cashouts affected.
-How much Bitstarz has profited.
-How often Bitstars "lets it slide"
-Ave size they "let slide" vs not slide
- In mikes honest opinion, if 100 people who had never gambled online before signed up and deposited at Bitstarz with instructions to be sure to read the terms, how many would place a bet over the maximum.
-In mikes honest opinion, is guy who had 20 BTC taken from him have any malicious intent or any intent whatsoever other than to deposit his money and gamble at their site. (was posting earlier in the thread)  

I agree with you - sort of.

In a tradition regulated model, there's a third party looking out for both the casino and the player (in exchange for a fat cut)

With the regulator out of the picture (no curacao doesn't count), the responsibility of the regulator is basically up for grabs.  Right now the casinos are just assuming the roll of regulator.  The players can either let the casino do what they want, or they can speak up - organize themselves somehow and demand to be treated fairly.  I think it's inevitable that's going to happen, just trying to get things moving along.  Were stil in the stone ages of unregulated crypto gambling imo.

Thank you bitcointalk community for your support to me and this topic will be still alive and active. Many users bump this topic and justify me.

If bitstarz pay back my stolen btcs 3.45, i'll lock this topic and remove my negative feedback on their profile. You are losing credibility everyday while this topic going online.

I play at Bitstarz all the time and never have any issue getting paid. The first time I ever played, I won a fairly large amount and violated the max bet rule without knowing it. They pointed out the rule (yes, it IS there!), and I acknowledged I screwed up and agreed not to do it again. They let me slide, which was nice of them. They didn’t have to let me slide because the rules are the rules and this is a common rule in a lot of casinos I’ve checked with, I just didn’t know about it myself, but that was my stupid mistake, not theirs. Why should they get blamed if I don’t read the rules? Anyways, like I said, that was nice of them.

Just because they let me slide, does that mean they should let everyone slide? What about people who keep breaking the rules after being told not to? What about people creating fake accounts and pretending not to know the rules each time? Obviously they have to draw the line somewhere and that’s their decision whether or not to let someone slide. It doesn’t make them shady. Bitstarz is legit and fair in my opinion. I’ve played there for months now and have never had any problem withdrawing winnings. With how many exit scams there are in the casino space, or casinos who let you deposit but never let you withdraw, I think it’s good to see companies like Bitstarz staying legit, even if you don’t like their rules. These guys seem to want to be around for a long time, and I’ll keep playing there.

ty for coming and informing us with your success with bitscams after 2 and half years later!

Ok. So you unknowingly broke a rule that they've punished other people for doing so, but you fortunately got a free pass (probably because they calculated the life time value of having you as a customer is greater than the amount of your withdrawal). But I'm just going to project here a little, and I suspect if had been like one of the other guys who lost 3.45 (like the OP) and 20 (?) bitcoin due to the very same mistake you wouldn't be so happy.


Anyway, obviously they don't screw over /all/ their players, that just wouldn't make business sense. It's probably pretty safe to assume for every 1 customer they royally screw, there's another 10,000 they don't. But that doesn't make it ok. You don't get brownie points for doing the right thing.


--

(And for everyone, I apologize for keep beating this horse, as they've already said they're finally going to fix the problem, which is fantastic. I just find it mind blowing that anyone could defend what is obviously highly predatory behavior and selective enforcement)

LOL @ highly predatory behavior. The casino is giving the player bonus funds. They can set whatever terms they want on it. Its the player that chose to take the bonus and thereby responsible for knowing the rules of the bonus. If a player chooses he can simply NOT take a bonus and alleviate any problems when it comes time to cashout. Is that to hard to understand?

Yes, the casino can do whatever they want.  Nobody is denying that.

If they want to establish and enforce highly predatory terms, they can.

That's what Bitstarz is doing.

No, but at the same time, the player has some rights on his money. The behavior was obviously predatory, although there are other casinos with similar predatory terms, none actually enforce them like they did. Some terms are expected to be enforced only when necessary to prevent abuse or fraud.

Hi there,

We've been over this so many times now. But I'll say it again. Max bet with bonus is a common thing, and the major casinos
out there are doing it. Technical implementations to get it restricted technically takes time, but it's on the way. Ultimately
it's the player's responsibility to follow the terms of the site they're using, and it doesn't go for just casinos, it goes for Netflix,
iTunes, or whatever you may use.

If you do not agree with the terms, then perhaps another site will suit you better.

Mike

Hi all,

Very valid point earlier that I'd like to mention again. The max bonus only applied
to BONUSES. If you play with cash money, you can play however you like and withdraw
anytime you like. Accepting bonuses is not mandatory, it's voluntarily.

Mike

And automatic.

I was replying to Trayber and I was using the past tense.




+1

This topic will remain open and i'll keep posting until bitstarz pays my stolen funds and rebuild their system for prevention on max bet thing.

You are not legit while you seize customers' funds.

Hi there,

You only get bonuses if you set your account to receive bonuses and tick the tick-box
on the deposit page that states that you wish to receive bonuses. On top of that, if you
made a deposit of 50 mBTC and without making any bet, you have 100 mBTC in your balance, I'd personally
would start to ask question as to how I doubled my money without placing a bet. Especially
since the bonuses are also displayed on the deposit page with the terms and conditions.

Furthermore, the player has the opportunity to forfeit the bonus without consequence prior
to starting to place any game rounds and also have the opportunity to forfeit their bonus and
winnings from bonus and withdraw their cash at a later stage.

Mike

I apologize!

Mike,

A player that goes to bitstarz.com, clicks on terms and conditions, reads all 5,290 words before checking the box to agree.
https://i.gyazo.com/2c8270b81b8875a7175c19fd00ed2feb.png

They will not be aware of your max bet rule and they will automatically be given a bonus with their deposit.

unless

They decline the bonus by checking this box:

https://i.gyazo.com/9e836d2ca54e217d55ac158a4a7ebf67.png

or

they find their way to part 3, section 12 of the separate bonus terms (over 2,000 words total)

Worst case scenario for them, imo, is they actually win a little bit and you decide to let them slide.

They make several more deposits, violating the rule each time before finally having a big win.

Then they find out.

I think your behavior is rather inappropriate. Yes, you were undoubtedly ripped off, and I'm sorry that it happened to you. However, you were paid out in full with a generous gesture by betking. At this point, you're no longer out of pocket and continually campaigning to have them pay you doesn't sit right with me.

If you want to campaign that they reimburse betking, or pay out all the other people who were in your exact position (which they damn well should!) but were not so lucky as to have someone donate them the money; then I'd fully support you. But demanding they pay you to close the thread, is just being opportunistic.

Did bitstarz close their main thread? That is a horrible decision to take, A casino should never cut off communication.
I thought they were starting to get their act together by requesting Net entertainment to change their software so they could enforce max bet rules during bonus wagering, But with this sort of action shows they aren't committed to the player at all.

Yeah.  Disappointed and slightly surprised.  Would expect that kind of behavior from any other softswiss site I guess.  So only slightly.


+1

Yet they are in all the top 5 lists you see on so called Bitcoin gambling news and review sites :)

Just goes to show how shady the whole industry is.
Just pay enough money to the top ranked google sites and you can keep running your scams.

Its easy for them to get on top of the lists when they pay with unfairly seized players money.
Try commenting anything against them at AskGamblers and they will not approve your comment.
Sites are ranked how much they pay or how great is their affiliate deal. Legitimate review sites are rare.

Yeah exactly. It's why you don't really see BetKing (and other legit sites) on these kind of sites.
Not sure what can be done really. Would be good to setup something legit with no affiliate links and no paid to advertise.
But the cost of SEO to rank higher than these sites would probably be huge.

Also probably not worth bothering about :)

Yeah you are right askgamblers are going the same way casinomeister went, Just scum bags trying to get affiliate profits acting like they are some sort of regulation, But delete and ban players that have legitimate issues from sites that pay them to advertise.

I have been thinking about making such a site Dean, A review and complaint site for gambling sites without affiliate links or paid ads.
Just dealing with real player issues day in and day out would bring too much negativity to my life.

Hi there,

I mean, you're free to believe whatever you want. But looking objectively at some of the largest advocates for fair play (thinking
especially of CM who's been there since the 90s) and claiming that they're just a bunch of scum bags, then I'd might ask myself
who should revise their arguments here.

On top of that, we at BitStarz is a fairly small player looking at the casinos that AG and CM are dealing with, and there's no way
that they'd take our side in this if they weren't sure we're right. They would never jeopardize their reputation to defend such a
minor casino like us.

Then again, you've got you own opinion, which you of course are entitled to. But looking at their experience dealing with cases
like this over the years, I'd at least listen to their arguments and ask myself why sites that have been around for decades aren't
seeing things from the same perspective.

BitStarz

Why don't you hire someone to manage your PR, You seem to be failing pretty hard at listening to players that aren't restricted to complain about things they want changed so it's not a industry wide acceptance that you can steal a large sum of money from a player!

I won't be playing at your casino in the future after your last comment. Gambling budget of 5-10k USD per month and any other player that has half a brain that reads that will be inclined to do the same.

 

Didn't they already say they were implementing a fix for the issue and working on it as we speak so this won't happen in the future and bets made using bonus funds will be restricted to the amounts the ToS require? Pretty sure they did.

It's also pretty disingenuous to say they "stole" a large sum of money from a player when it was that player who failed to follow the rules. Read the rules and ask questions if you don't understand them. That would save a lot of hassle. Regardless, if they implement a technical fix that keeps this from happening in the future, then that's pretty good on them.

Sure, but the fact remains that they still haven't fixed it or compensated people for the money they unfairly took.

I like how your last 6 posts have all been defending a quasi scam, I hope you're at least getting paid for it  :)

Nope, not getting paid for it at all. I'm just staying on top of these threads because I play there and have an interest in seeing the eventual outcome. I still don't see their actions as unfair though. Like I said, I play there and I know the rules.

In my case, it is more important to state that this casino terms had been contradict each other at that time. I mentioned that rule in my first post.


If there were no contradiction, i'd feel better thinking that "i am wrong, i should read/understand better" However at that time this casino had 2 different terms and conditions.

Argument 2 is what they are still lying about to implement "system" to protect users from max bet.

I also went to Askgamblers and CM. They rejected my case instantly. In addition to Dean's argument... He is right. Bitstarz and other scam casino sites hurts bitcoin ecosystem so much. When you check and analyze this topic, you'll see that %90 of users granted me. Dean also paid and reflect like a real honorable human to save bitcoin ecosystem.

However as i stated before, this topic will stay open until they will pay my and other customers' stolen money. I'll pay back this to Dean. This scam "bitstarz" casino should be isoleted from bitcoin ecosystem and every user should be warned about them before deposit.

The online gambling industry is incredibly shady, that's what is so interesting about bitcoin gambling. The barriers to entry are so much lower which have allowed a younger crowd to enter and build the type of transparent services that didn't exist prior. All deposit bonuses are predatory scams, it's silly for bitstarz to consider themselves a bitcoin casino when they are basically just a run of the mill fiat casino that accepts bitcoin.

I totally agree with every word that the above member has said about the gambling industry.
If they can rake back what a player has won they will do it no matter what. They will always find a way to say that you have broken their set of predetermined rules so you have to forfeit your winnings.

Softswiss (and others) sites basically take any convenience bitcoin has to offer to increase their deposit volume, then uses the inconvenience that comes with fiat gambling to decrease their cash-out volume.

They are hurting themselves more than they think (imo).

be ware this SCAM & FRAUD SITE!
they BANNED my account because I BIG WIN!!!
I have deposite with my own BITCOIN, after they request some document, I send proof and BOOM my account SUSPEND PERMANTLY!!
I LOST 3 BTC HERE? I LOST BECAUSE WIN HERE ! wtf

What did they ask for exactly? KYC? Really strange for a casino to be asking for that info. Usually if you are in an area where they are not allowed to operatate they generally block your account and tell you to withdraw funds, but blocking your BTC is very strange.

is philippines allowed to play no deposit bonus??

Hi there,

You might want to explain why you chose to double spend on the site? We've already
explained this to you, but if you want to publicly explain as to why you did that,
you're more than welcome to.

Mike

Hi there,

Players from the Philippines are not able to play with the no deposit bonus I'm afraid,
but I'll make an exception for you. Just send me your username in a PM :)

Mike

Now they have changed their terms and conditions to rip off winning players!


When you are forced to mostly play slots there will be many cases in the future where players win more than 10x the bonus amount. This must be a massive oversight from a company I protected on this forum many times!
Now with these predatory terms I would strongly suggest to Stay away from this predatory casino This is something that everyone should scream scam about.

Not a happy new year from bitstarz, Just an attempt to steal more players money!

Hi there,

Just to be clear, this term is not in the terms anymore, it has was removed,
but let me take some time to explain why that is.

We were over-run by some bonus abusers and we had to find a way to add
a temporary term to see if the numbers of abusers decreased, which it did,
and the term is no longer in use and was never enforced. But that seemed
to be enough to scare some away.

Regards,

BitStarz

Thanks for clearing this up, I have been burnt before from that rule, It was such a horrible thing to do to a winner! Good to see your casino is back in my good books. :)

Last night, I heard someone complaining that they had they had won 0.2 bitcoin on bitstarz, and were required to provide extensive identity verification despite the fact that they had never used anything but bitcoin.

Is this correct? Or a normal process at bitstarz? Under what circumstances do you require id verification for withdrawals?

I think a lot of players pick bitcoin casinos where they can be anonymous and don't need to worry about their documents getting leaked or stollen or used maliciously. And what does bitstarz do with winnings that wasn't withdrawn because a user would rather preserver their anonymity than their money? Is that considered a profit center for the casino, or given away to charities like most physical casinos?

And was successful to read the entire thread.
it is actually a test before I decide to play there, and i just realized that fine prints can easily be overlooked especially if you are to try their service for entertainment, not for a headache.
-kudos to Seal, Rhavar and most specially to Dean, for pointing out what bitcoin casino SHOULD BE LIKE.


That I doubt, could have been their ticket out of this mess if they do surrender it to the state or use it on charities.

The best solution for this now,(in a former retentions specialist POV)
Tally the bets won and lost, provide what amount players have won which did not exceed your max bet(although in a way it should also be, since you allowed it even if you warned them), and don't assume ownership on something you DON'T own.

This I think is the best to minimize your churn rate bitstarz. Take my word for whatever my member ranks worth.

This is becoming a more common thing to see with these bitcoin casinos finding anything possible to not have to pay their customers.
It is a realization that the player has to be shown first to not trust in these fly by night organizations. They can be here today and gone tomorrow in a heart beat for when they so choose.
Be wary my fellow gamblers.

Did you see bitstarz response after mine? in a timely fashion!? they never intended to apply the conditions and have now removed the term from their website.
There is no issue anymore, I would recommend people to play at bitstarz again as they are a sturdy casino that will pay you if you follow their terms and conditions.

Why anyone plays at this underfunded sh!t hole is beyond me.

Sucks to read more stories like this.  Something kind of similar happened to me 2 nights ago at CASINO EXTREME.  I was on a deposit bonus, made it through my wager requirements.  This is when all the games unlock cause you complete your required wagers..  So after they unlock, I head over to the blackjack table and hit for 1300$.  Went to have a smoke, come back and my balance was 278$.  The support guy told me I broke the bonus rules by playing blackjack with the bonus I had.  Under the bonus I had I was not allowed to play blackjack.  LOL.  When the cash is withdrawable, how are you supposed to tell me what game I can or can not play?  Why do all the games unlock after my requirements are met?  No answers other than the same BS over and over.  "Sorry it's in the rules, you used your bonus on blackjack and it was only meant for slots."  It is pathetic and sad.  He even went so far as to tell me, "We could have taken all of it away, but we were nice and left you with your 278$ slot winnings."  I said, no.  You had no right to take anything from me.  It is no different than you walking up to me and taking 1000$ out of my pocket which is what they did.  Fucking thieves.  Make me sick. 

+1, fortunately the community has the very honest gambling site owner, aka pd's big boss, stunna, we are lucky to have you. You make everything fair. IMO bonus is a way to kill the deposit, and lure people to deposit more to clear the rollover.

Similar issue I just got robbed for at bitstarz.

My ordeal is as such.

No bonuses accepted or activated.

I deposit 0.2 btc, play slots and lose it.
I deposit 0.1 btc, play slots and lose it.
I decide one last time, deposit just under 0.1 BTC for some netent slots so into the eur account and receive 100.5eur. When I made this deposit it took me to fill in details which it did not do for btc deposit before so I just filled in random details thinking it would not matter.

I proceed to play when piggs fly netent slot, I finally get to run good and end up just over 1000euro.

So I proceed to try withdraw, I am asked to provide my ID and utility bill (wtf, I thought this is anonymous casino site that dont require such things since I am only depositing/withdrawing btc)

I then inform then, I did not know the account page mattered because I was looking for casino that does not require details when dealing with btc but if it does I am willing to provide ID and utility bill but they would then have to update my account details to reflect my real details.

Chris at support then email me telling me I broke rules filling in fake details (it is absolutely obvious I just pressed random letters and was not a clear attempt to enter fake details, everthing was entered 12343 etc.) and that they will remove my winnings and credit back my last deposit.

What the fuck ? First off, I did not gain an advantage, when I found out about my details issue I informed them to correct it, my ID and utility is completely valid. They are simply looking for a way to weasel out of paying me the 1000euro balance and at the same time they are stealing my first 2 deposits by just allowing me to withdraw my third deposit.

How does that make any sense, please dont ever deal with this site. If they go out of their way to weasel out of paying such a relatively small win and also steal my first 2 deposits, I cant imagine what they will do to anyone winning more than that.

Chris at bitstarz, I will continue to make people aware of your practices and zero valid reason to void my winnings and also steal my first 2 deposits.

I am telling you now publicly in case you read this, I will not stop, the internet will get daily details about how you stole from me until you return my full valid winnings that I won fair and square. Failure to do so will hopefully get your clear scam and theft exposed day in and day out.

Chris at bitstarz, my next step is to open google campaigns to make search engine properly aware of your practices.

If you decide to steal from me, be prepared to lose business long term.

You tried to fuck with the wrong guy.

They implemented update today which will prevent players to bet more than their limit, at least something.

If you have a limit on these games why are they allowed to bet past the limit in the first place? The gesture is nice to give a bonus but to put limits on and allow to player to go past those limits than say ohh sorry you broke the rules is a joke.

This is very good news.  Is it exclusively a Bitstarz thing or all across softswiss platforms?

Maybe only exclusively by Bitstarz, they really need to set the limit to disallow people to play above the limit, but they didn't make the solution, therefore always such complaints.

So they claim that they had acted wrong, now they implement new system. They should pay back my stolen btcs.

I was robbed at bitstarz too!

I've made around 20 deposits for a total of around 1btc over the past 2 weeks and lost it all, until yesterday when I was up to .85 bitcoins.

When I went to withdraw I was notified that my account was being closed due to having a 2nd account. I'll admit, I opened a second account to bypass the cooling off period (which has already expired).

I never used the bonus system on this account, as a matter of fact, bitstarz must know that I opened a 2nd account because a bonus wasn't automatically added. Bitstarz has basically stolen 1btc in deposits and .85 I had in my account.

Keep in mind, if you are in the US, it's in their TOC that you're not allowed. If you win too big, please be aware that they WILL confiscate your winnings if you win.
 

Here's a post I made on Reddit with the chat and their responses.

Bitstarz asking for passport and utility when only played with bitcoin https://www.reddit.com/r/BitcoinGambling/comments/6ijkls/bitstarz_asking_for_passport_and_utility_when/

Please be careful at Bitstarz as they have no problem stealing money from you. Your money is not safe there. Go to fortunejack.

Hi Mike, Can you explain why you took my bitcoin though you allowed me to deposit thousands of dollars and only stop me when I tried to withdraw?

Can you explain why you asked for ID and utility bill when I only played with bitcoin?

Can you also explain why I wasn't credited a bonus on my 2nd account but still let me deposit?

Can you tell me bitstarz stance on US players?

Thank you in advance for being so transparent.

This is exactly why you're such a scam site. "I'll make an exception for you"!!! Are you fucking serious! Hahaha. After everyone accuses you of a scam, you'll make an exception on a TOC?

Wow what a nice exclusion there on which it do violate or changes its TOC in an instant for a certain player do request to avail the bonus. This act is really unfair for others which do have kind of restriction but now its very easy to say some words as long this site do get money on potential players. Very very suspicious on my part.^^ checking above they set new limits but they should arrange or resolve first pending issues.

I've asked them to respond to this thread and the response was "someone else responds to those". If they'll lose good, honest customers for a few btc's, then good luck to Mike and Chris and beware to players. Your btc isn't safe.

This is bad, losing customers like this is one of the worst things a casino do.

Reliability and responsability comes in first place in a business, specially in Casinos, these sort of contempt by the owners / managers with loyal customers can and will kill the business into the long therm.

We, community, are all know that this casino is full of scam. Be aware guys do not deposit bitstarz, stay away.

I dont get the discussion about the maximum bet threshold...

I didnt play in this casino, I am just here to read, to learn..
The only thing I can think about is:
A player shouldnt be allowed (like it is not possible to PLACE the bet) to bet over the max...
If the house accept the bet, they can not (in my opionion) say: read the terms...
What the actual f**k.

Exactly...If a casino accepts a bet then its in order that they pay a bet. Mike at bitstarz has become so arrogant that it's not even funny. I haven't deposited there in a long long time...

I think that this conflict is still not solved. Bitstarz has changed their customer relations employee from Mike to Olle.

He is trying to change bitstarz image here. However they have got many of their red trusts from this topic.

Olle should solve this issue too. Until then i dont mind to play in bitstarz.

I was following this topic. I was really sorry for @worthyou. I was a big player on bitstarz but after this case i have not made any deposit there.

It is good to see that bitstarz and Olle try to do fair and admit their faults.

This problem should also be solved and bitstarz should pay 3.45 to player. It is really honorable to admit your past faults.

I do not think that they are going to pay them back again. Every site have their own terms and you should read them well before playing on their site. Although some site refuse to pay you back just because of making multiple account or may be just little thing issue. You will always called they scam right? So better for them to hold your amount and being called scam rather than pay it back and still get red trust, this is what I saw from their view

If you would read the other pages, you would know that this has been sorted(not by bitstarz but by someone else).

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1454521.msg14745743#msg14745743

How can you know they keep on stealing player funds? If there is still got players to play that mean their site is still active and even paying the player as well, if not there would not be any player going to play on their site. And btw you are on red trust, instead of spamming some FUD's on someone else thread? Better try to clear your red trust instead

If you cannot bet higher then a limit imposed by a casino as in your case, there should be a automated inbuilt system in the site so that no one with a bonus can bet higher.
But in your case they knowingly let you bet over the limit which is not fair on their part, and then confiscate your funds. It is a clear example of scam.
Thank you for letting us know about this scam site.

What do you expect if the victim is not willing to enforce his bitcoin through legal action?

Just got scammed by these utter scumbags.
They let you create more than 1 account on the IP (say, if youre in a shared, frat house, live with friends or family who like to gamble that YOU recommend the site to initially). SO they let you deposit, THEN tell you 'oh you cant get the bonus because another account was created on that ip.'. They then DONT LET YOU withdraw your deposit until you've wagered it all away.

Bunch of dishonest scumbags who rely on dishonesty and misdirection to gain money.

Stay away from these guys. Their support team are a bunch of tools as well.

They are on the Curacao licensing scam casinos list (https://game-protect.com/curacao-licensing-scam/)!