Bitstarz Removes 3.45 Btc Balance According to Breaking Bonus Terms

[bitstars.net]

Mike,

How many casinos can you name that have this rule and aren't using softswiss software?  I'll give you a list 10x as long of casinos that don't and would lose their license if they did.

The rule exists only to be violated.  It doesn't protect the casino from anything, it does create a potential vulnerability in players for you to exploit.  It's predatory.

In the short run Im sure it seems like a brilliant idea.  But it's not only damaging your rep, it's turning people off from gambling for bitcoin and even just bitcoin.

I know you didn't write the rules or decide where they are displayed, but please, pay attention to this:

Unless a player has already landed on https://www.bitstarz.com/promotions, any hyperlink within the site titled "Terms & Conditions" will bring them to: https://www.bitstarz.com/terms
(this is the 4,000+ word version that does not mention the max bet rule)

If a player navigates to https://www.bitstarz.com/promotions, then clicks on "Terms & Conditions" next to a specific promotion (not on the bottom of the page) they will remain on https://www.bitstarz.com/promotions and a popup with BONUS TERMS AND CONDITIONS will appear.  (it's 2,000+ words, with this rule located on the bottom third)

Your promotional emails link directly to https://www.bitstarz.com/bonus-terms-and-conditions, which is the same as the pop-up one would get from https://www.bitstarz.com/promotions

So...Some of your examples below, like the Terms link when signing up, will never bring you to the max bet rule.  And some of them will bring only those who have already navigated to /promotions page.

Example, before signing up, a user checks out terms and conditions:
(lands on https://www.bitstarz.com/terms reads 4,000 words, is not informed of max bet)



PS: Some of Your Betsoft Progressive Jackpots are fraudulent (For example, 1% is getting taken by Betsoft while GlamLife, Some of the Larger Greedy Goblins and Bad Girl Jackpots are unwinnable, also Pocketdice just scammed a player for BTC102, you should drop them both as providers.  I'll be back to explain soon, or you could research it yourself.

Hi there,

In terms of casinos with a max bet rule.

Here are some:

LeoVegas

The maximum bet allowed when using a bonus (until wagering requirements are met) is 50 kr per bet.
Failure to follow this may result in forfeiting any winnings.

RedBet

7.8 The highest wager allowed when using bonus money, until the turnover requirement has been fulfilled, is 5 euro (50 SEK) per spin and 50 eurocent (5 SEK) per betting line. For the purposes of this requirement, a spin is defined as a spin on a game machine, a lottery ticket or a corresponding game in the casino.

SuperLenny

The maximum bet per spin when playing with a bonus is €5/$6/£4 per bet line (or equivalent in any other currency) until the play through requirements of the bonus have been met. This includes double up wagers after the game round has been completed. For example, wagering winnings from X game round on red/black.

SpinEmpire

The maximum bet per spin when playing with a bonus is, unless stated otherwise, €5 per bet (or equivalent in any other currency) until the wagering requirements of the bonus have been met. This includes double-up wagers after the game round has been completed. For example, wagering winnings from X game round on red/black.

YakoCasino

3. The maximum bet per spin when playing with a bonus is €5/5CHF/50NOK/50SEK/$7/R90 per bet (or equivalent in any other currency) until the wagering requirements of the bonus have been met. Should the customer exceed the maximum bonus bet allowed, the bonus balance together with any winnings accumulated will be automatically forfeited.

NoxWin

  4. In the interest of fair gaming and prevention of bonus abuse there is a maximum allowed stake per bet until the wagering requirement has been met. The maximum stake per spin is €6 and €0.5 per bet line. If the player’s account is in a different currency the equivalent amount in that currency applies. Calculate your currency equivalent here.


In terms of the issue with Betsoft, we'll have to look into that further.

Mike

[bitcoinissatan]

sounds bad if it happened, but I know the site looks good and great

[RHavar]

Hi there,

In terms of casinos with a max bet rule.

Here are some:

There's nothing wrong about a max-bet rule, the problem is not enforcing it on your server and then using it against players when they want to withdraw. As TwitchySeal aptly described it, it's a predatory rule that's designed to be broken. You've unfairly taken thousands upon thousands of dollars of players money because of it.

If it's really so hard for you to enforce a max-bet on your server,  there's a simple fix. Every night do a db query, search for everyone who violated the rule and refund that bet (be it a winning or losing bet). Now it's no longer predatory, as you're not raping people who make a mistake or otherwise didn't closely read the ToS.

[TwitchySeal]

Hi there,

Fair enough, we're willing to do what we can to make this rule more visible, so
we'll be adding it to the deposit page, so you can see it when you deposit, and
also the general terms area.

We're also working on a technical solution for this of course.

Any other place?

Mike

Wow you did change a few things, and you haven't resorted to spamming huge promos images and telling other users to "ignore the trolls".  That's good.

I really think you should feel obligated to be actively informing players who have violated the max bet rule as soon as possible.  I can't imagine how shitty it must feel to be that guy who fires 15 or 20 deposits at you before finally winning something decent only to find out that he literally never had a chance because he was betting 6 euro per spin.  (The same goes for the guy who gets a withdraw rejected on his second deposit)

I was def surprised to see that those Malta Casinos were able to use the same max bonus terms, there are certainly more than I thought, but I wasn't able to check them all bc of my location.

Two of the sites you mentioned basically said they don't enforce this rule unless they believe there is some sort of fraud.



By the way, whos call is it to enforce this rule?

I can tell you guys are set up a little different than most of the others, how different is it though?



Did you drop Glam Life? 
Could you tell Betsoft to fuck off if you wanted to?

[bitstars.net]

Hi there,

Fair enough, we're willing to do what we can to make this rule more visible, so
we'll be adding it to the deposit page, so you can see it when you deposit, and
also the general terms area.

We're also working on a technical solution for this of course.

Any other place?

Mike

Wow you did change a few things, and you haven't resorted to spamming huge promos images and telling other users to "ignore the trolls".  That's good.

I really think you should feel obligated to be actively informing players who have violated the max bet rule as soon as possible.  I can't imagine how shitty it must feel to be that guy who fires 15 or 20 deposits at you before finally winning something decent only to find out that he literally never had a chance because he was betting 6 euro per spin.  (The same goes for the guy who gets a withdraw rejected on his second deposit)

I was def surprised to see that those Malta Casinos were able to use the same max bonus terms, there are certainly more than I thought, but I wasn't able to check them all bc of my location.

Two of the sites you mentioned basically said they don't enforce this rule unless they believe there is some sort of fraud.



By the way, whos call is it to enforce this rule?

I can tell you guys are set up a little different than most of the others, how different is it though?



Did you drop Glam Life? 
Could you tell Betsoft to fuck off if you wanted to?

Hi there,

Well, we always like to hear both sides of every story. Wherever you go online, there is going to
be people who uses reason and people who don't. But I think it's extremely important to address
genuine concerns from players, and we do listen.

And we try to do that as well, but one thing you have to understand is that it might sound easy
to immediately inform someone about a terms being violated, but it's harder to get things like
that technically implemented, especially if you're a boutique casino (and a bigger casino too for
that matter), but we're trying to do our best to get it in place as soon as we can.

In terms of the Max bet rule, those are just the casinos I found from a quick google search,
there's plenty more of them out there. I just wanted to give an example that we're not alone
in those terms and put it there just try do our best to screw people over, which is obviously
not our intention. In terms of who's the one making the call, it would be a team leader or
manager's decision.

Well, haha, we could technically. We're the ones having their games, and if we don't like
them, we could say that, although I'd try to be a little more diplomatic about it. But yes
we could technically close them out. But again, I hope that this comes across in a good way;
I want to hear both sides of the story in all cases before I jump to any conclusions, and that
goes for everything.

Just as some call people trolls, or some say that casino are scammers, at least we can play
with open cards and try to make sense of things. The more information that is out there means
that people can make more educated decisions. If all correct info is out there and people don't
like BitStarz, that's totally fine with me, you can't like everything. But I think everyone and every
place deserves a fair shot at explaining themselves.

I promise to let you know when I have info regarding Glam Life and Betsoft, but I want to hear
what they have to say too!

I appreciate you keeping a nice tone in the feedback, and let me know if there's anything else you
need answered!

Mike

[bitstars.net]

Hi there,

Fair enough, we're willing to do what we can to make this rule more visible, so
we'll be adding it to the deposit page, so you can see it when you deposit, and
also the general terms area.

We're also working on a technical solution for this of course.

Any other place?

Mike

Wow you did change a few things, and you haven't resorted to spamming huge promos images and telling other users to "ignore the trolls".  That's good.

I really think you should feel obligated to be actively informing players who have violated the max bet rule as soon as possible.  I can't imagine how shitty it must feel to be that guy who fires 15 or 20 deposits at you before finally winning something decent only to find out that he literally never had a chance because he was betting 6 euro per spin.  (The same goes for the guy who gets a withdraw rejected on his second deposit)


Glam life has been removed!

I was def surprised to see that those Malta Casinos were able to use the same max bonus terms, there are certainly more than I thought, but I wasn't able to check them all bc of my location.

Two of the sites you mentioned basically said they don't enforce this rule unless they believe there is some sort of fraud.



By the way, whos call is it to enforce this rule?

I can tell you guys are set up a little different than most of the others, how different is it though?



Did you drop Glam Life? 
Could you tell Betsoft to fuck off if you wanted to?

Hi there,

Well, we always like to hear both sides of every story. Wherever you go online, there is going to
be people who uses reason and people who don't. But I think it's extremely important to address
genuine concerns from players, and we do listen.

And we try to do that as well, but one thing you have to understand is that it might sound easy
to immediately inform someone about a terms being violated, but it's harder to get things like
that technically implemented, especially if you're a boutique casino (and a bigger casino too for
that matter), but we're trying to do our best to get it in place as soon as we can.

In terms of the Max bet rule, those are just the casinos I found from a quick google search,
there's plenty more of them out there. I just wanted to give an example that we're not alone
in those terms and put it there just try do our best to screw people over, which is obviously
not our intention. In terms of who's the one making the call, it would be a team leader or
manager's decision.

Well, haha, we could technically. We're the ones having their games, and if we don't like
them, we could say that, although I'd try to be a little more diplomatic about it. But yes
we could technically close them out. But again, I hope that this comes across in a good way;
I want to hear both sides of the story in all cases before I jump to any conclusions, and that
goes for everything.

Just as some call people trolls, or some say that casino are scammers, at least we can play
with open cards and try to make sense of things. The more information that is out there means
that people can make more educated decisions. If all correct info is out there and people don't
like BitStarz, that's totally fine with me, you can't like everything. But I think everyone and every
place deserves a fair shot at explaining themselves.

I promise to let you know when I have info regarding Glam Life and Betsoft, but I want to hear
what they have to say too!

I appreciate you keeping a nice tone in the feedback, and let me know if there's anything else you
need answered!

Mike

[iv4n]

Clearly Bitstarz made a huge mistake! Again!

Shit happens, we all know that, but this is a scam! They allowed "worthyou" to place a bet and when he won something they confiscated his money.
Wait the minute, what would happen in case "worthyou" lost again? Nothing probably!
Mike from bitstarz is just repeating himself, rules, rules... you had high roller now you don't, people are reading this and we will not come to play on your site cause some hidden rules and how you treat your players.

And your constant repeating other casinos is funny after we saw what BetKing did. Congratulations! That is a way for attracting good players, everything can be solved nicely. But mike from bitstarz confiscated money, and said "its our rule go fuck yourself, other casinos have same rule, we allowed you to place bet but when we saw you won we will show our terms and conditions"

Big respect for Betking! And one more big minus for bitstarz!

"But I think everyone and every
place deserves a fair shot at explaining themselves."  You confiscated money that
someone earned, did you give "worthyou" a chance!? If you were smart you should make a deal with him, explain to him rules and YOUR mistake, cause YOU (read casino) allowed that bet!!!! That is end of story, your fault!!!! You should apologize to this player and give him money, solve your problems and limit bets for next time!

[bitstars.net]

Hi there,

If you're breaking the rules of a site where you've accepted the terms in the first place, you might have to ask yourself who
you should be mad at. I'm not trying to be arrogant here, I'm just telling you how it is.

There are still rules that needs to be followed, and as explained, it's extremely hard to get a technical solution in place to prevent
this. You can't prevent someone from opening duplicate accounts, that's something you find out after it has been created, and
it's just an example of things that you have to work out retroactively.

If you do not agree with the max bet rule, then that's totally ok. All we ask is that the players of BitStarz abide to the rules
they accept. If you don't wish to accept the rules, then I wish you all the best in another casino that suits you better.

Mike

[DarkStar_]

Here is a legitimate question - How many times has a player lost his money or a lot of it, had a bonus and bet over the maximum allowed and had his deposit refunded because he broke the terms?

Probably never. If your going to keep your rule like that, and not add a limit, make sure players who lose that break the rule get their deposit back or the bet refunded (win or loss).

[TwitchySeal]

Why did this get locked?

[ndnh]

Hi there,

In terms of casinos with a max bet rule.

Here are some:

LeoVegas

RedBet

--snip--

You ought to prove that it is a standard practice to take the entire balance of the players in these cases.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but, if a player deposits $500, receives a bonus, and loses it playing $10 hands of blackjack, you don't bother to let him know his $500 was torched the minute the first card was dealt, do you?

What if he does it 20 more times over the next year before finally getting lucky and clearing the bonus with a balance of $5k?
See where I'm going with this?  See how fucked up it is to do this to your players?

Yeah that is exactly how it works.




There are so many ways to make things fair, why do you ignore them?

b) Revert all bets that exceeded the max-bet be them win or loses

You can take just the proportionate winnings and bet amounts from the bets above max bet, and multiply the remaining wagering requirement with 0.95 to calculate the final balance. (You cannot claim this is unfair)

[bitstars.net]

"You ought to prove that it is a standard practice to take the entire balance of the players in these cases."

Hi there,

The standard practice there is to remove the balance and leave the player with the initial deposit at the
casinos there that I'm familiar with personally.


"There are so many ways to make things fair, why do you ignore them?"

We're doing our best to make people aware of this rule. I'm not sure if "fair" is the word I'd use
here. We've got a rule on the site, which is very much common in a lot of casinos online, and we
do our best to make people aware of it until we get a technical solution. You can call that unfair
if you wish, but the player also has a responsibility to read up on the terms and conditions
if he/she wishes to get a bonus.

Kind Regards,

Mike

[TwitchySeal]

"You ought to prove that it is a standard practice to take the entire balance of the players in these cases."

Hi there,

The standard practice there is to remove the balance and leave the player with the initial deposit at the
casinos there that I'm familiar with personally.


"There are so many ways to make things fair, why do you ignore them?"

We're doing our best to make people aware of this rule. I'm not sure if "fair" is the word I'd use
here. We've got a rule on the site, which is very much common in a lot of casinos online, and we
do our best to make people aware of it until we get a technical solution. You can call that unfair
if you wish, but the player also has a responsibility to read up on the terms and conditions
if he/she wishes to get a bonus.

Kind Regards,

Mike

The rule is in place to protect the casino from being exploited.

When Bitstarz enforces it on players that have not given any reason to believe they are maliciously exploiting the site, Bitstarz is the only party guilty of abuse.

It's not about whats fair and not fair.  It's about being the most successful casino possible.  Right?

Well, I'm telling you...this type of scummy behavior is damaging the entire industry.  Go ask some strangers walking down the street what they have heard about bitcoin casinos if you don't believe me.

"Other casinos do it" is bullshit excuse. 

Do you want to be like those other casinos with scummy terms that are enforced or no?

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you let Softswiss or some other third party set things up and you aren't aware that there are so many (like the bonus terms being buried up till last week when you moved them.)

Why do you think they decided to put this list of restricted games in this particular order?
Answer: Confusing list increases the chance of a player not realizing they are trying to clear bonus on restricted game. Result:  Overall Cashout Rate Decreases.


Oh look, a term that gives you the right to void all winnings if an audit fails...which could mean anything...


Oh look a rule that gives you the right to void all winnings if a player does what 99% of all players do (use some sort of gambling strategy)



Oh look a rule that was added by betsoft AFTER a player won a 500 bitcoin jackpot on freespins, and also demonstrates how clueless the people managing Betsoft really are:


(read this post if you don't know what I'm talking about: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1236667.msg15426182#msg15426182 ) and then go look at all your betsoft games with progressives that can only be won during Bonus Rounds.

Another predatory condition that exists to help you increase your profits over the standard HE by that much more.



I got a few more but I'll save them for later.

[bitstars.net]

Hi there,

To be completely honest with you, a casino earns more on keeping a player
long term than short term gains. But as a casino we have to protect
ourselves from abuse in any way, but I hear what you're saying. The problem
is to make that determination if someone is abusing or not, you will have to
look a a multiple of factors.

If you wish to discuss this further, PM me your number and we can talk it
out over on the phone. I'd be happy to personally answer any questions you might
have!

Mike

[ndnh]

"You ought to prove that it is a standard practice to take the entire balance of the players in these cases."

Hi there,

The standard practice there is to remove the balance and leave the player with the initial deposit at the
casinos there that I'm familiar with personally.

If I deposit something, take a bonus, start losing, all I need to do is break the terms to get deposit back?... Nope. What you mean is if the player wins, you give him a nasty surprise tell he broke the terms he had agreed to and if makes a mess give him his deposit back. free bonus, free spins? nothing back and if he loses, nothing back.
Sounds player friendly?

We're doing our best to make people aware of this rule.

Only now. A lot of damage has already been done.

I'm referring to matters before you made the terms more transparent.

but the player also has a responsibility to read up on the terms and conditions if he/she wishes to get a bonus.

Terms are single sided. meant to protect you. not give you a means to fraud unsuspecting players. The terms are acceptable. The way you enforce it is not. You are not expected to literally enforce it.

Do you really believe all those players who bet more than this 25 mBTC while having an active bonus is trying to abuse the bonus and rip you off?

[bitstars.net]

Hi there,

We have the terms and conditions visible in so many places on the website,
in every email you receive, on the promotions page, etc. But however many
time we place it, there's always going to be someone claiming we're not clear
enough, it's a matter of opinion

So, your take on laws and rules are that they're there, but they're not supposed
to be enforced? That sounds quite contradictory.

We do not think that, and not everyone is getting their money confiscated, many
of them are getting their winnings. But the ones we deem have tried to abuse
us will have to be dealt with in a different way.

Regards,

Mike

[olubams]

Hi there,

We have the terms and conditions visible in so many places on the website,
in every email you receive, on the promotions page, etc. But however many
time we place it, there's always going to be someone claiming we're not clear
enough, it's a matter of opinion

So, your take on laws and rules are that they're there, but they're not supposed
to be enforced? That sounds quite contradictory.

We do not think that, and not everyone is getting their money confiscated, many
of them are getting their winnings. But the ones we deem have tried to abuse
us will have to be dealt with in a different way.

Regards,

Mike

No matter how you want to try as much as possible to do damage control or public relations, what has happened has happened and I am so sure you have lost more than what was confisticated from 'worthy of you" in which the fault is on you because you allow this matter fester up to this point where it could have been settled and everyone would have moved on. The terms are there but I am sure 99% dont even bother to read it before accepting to it and because youre also in business you accommodate us to ply even though you know we havent read it. The rules are there but they can bend in situation like this because what will be lost will actually be more than what is to be protected...

[bitstars.net]

Hi there,

If a person don't take the responsibility to read them, then unfortunately it's on them at the end
of the day, the player has the highest responsibility here. We try to make it as simple as possible and
we're not impossible when it comes to letting things like that slip if we deem that it was an honest mistake.

Again, we have let things like this slip in the past, but it comes down to a case to case thing.

Mike

[RHavar]

bitstars.net: Serious question. Why don't you enforce all the conditions of your ToS on the server? Most of them are absolutely trivial to do so (e.g. max bets) or  "Sorry, you can only claim the deposit bonus 4 times in a row! Next deposit doesn't allow you to claim it").


The fact that you have:
a) Terms that are easy to enforce from your side, but rely on the player to be careful to not do so
b) If the terms are violated (which can be completely accidental), it works out hugely in your favor.

leads to the inescapable conclusion that you want people to break them  (otherwise you would spend half an hour coding)  so in the off-chance they win some real money, you don't need to pay

[TwitchySeal]

To be completely honest with you, a casino earns more on keeping a player
long term than short term gains.

In  other words, Bitstarz earns more from players that are happy and continue to deposit than from players who stop depositing because you refused to pay them.

Good for you. But really you shouldn't be earning anything from cancelled withdraws.  

A= [(Total Bet*HouseEdge) - Total Bonuses]
B= Cancelled Withdraws
C= Annual Profit

A + B = C

If C=100, what are A and B at Bitstars?

Ethically, you should be doing everything you can to keep B as close to 0 as possible.

Casinos (both online and B&M)regulated by the NJDGE (New Jersey), B always = 0, When funds are seized from players (Banned players, underage players, cheaters etc.) they are surrendered to the state.  This rule is in place to protect players.

When pokerstars seizes player funds they  are donated to responsible gaming charities. (They are still criticized for receiving tax incentives on these donations)

It's terribly obvious that Softswiss terms and conditions are written in a way to make B as high as possible while still keeping a majority of players happy and willing to return to deposit more.

Also, if a player deposits BTC1 and receives a BTC1 bonus, clears the bonus and then has their BTC10 cashout rejected and balance reset to BTC1, you still took BTC9 from him.  It was nice of you to give him BTC1 since you didn't have to.  But all you're really doing is choosing to seize "only" 90% of what you could.  If a player is guilty of a violation serious enough to justify not paying him, their entire balance should be seized and account closed.

If you wish to discuss this further, PM me your number and we can talk it
out over on the phone. I'd be happy to personally answer any questions you might
have!

Would you be willing to come on a podcast to discuss it on Wednesday night?  http://pokerfraudalert.com/forum/radio.php (don't let the name scare you, its more about online gambling in genral - not just the bad and the owner is reasonable)