Bitcoin Forum

If your goal is to actually make money, you would be buying before there's a physical shortage in 1000oz bars, not after (be first, be smart, or cheat).  I also hear even the big players are buying 1 oz silver eagles and NOT huge bars.

You apparently lack appreciation of the significance of both marginal prices in economics, and also the non-linear effects of chaos.

1. With marginal prices in Economics 101, the price you pay is set by the most expensive producer. It is not a useful model to think of a 3/4 reduction in food production causing causing a 400% increase in prices, because when you take away 3/4 of the lowest cost producers, the new supply is highest cost producers. So as was the case in Bosnia, where the cost of food was driven by the highest cost producers, a tin can of Spam was $30 to $40, i.e. roughly a 1000% increase. You need to visualize this as disruption of economies-of-scale not only in farming, but also in terms of distribution economies-of-scale, security of farming and distribution economies-of-scale.

2. When the population has become dependent on high economies-of-scale in farming, distribution, credit, government, corporations, etc., and that is taken away by mother nature and or widespread war/pestilence (-4.5 F average temperature reduction in cold climates, with great aggregate effects such as flooding, droughts, etc), then the F.U.B.A.R. human effects are quite non-linear as described in that link bigtimespaghetti provided on surviving the war in Bosnia (http://www.naturalnews.com/040249_bosnia_preppers_survival_strategies.html) (which I had read long ago when it was first published). This can further exacerbate application of solutions and thus drive prices another 1000% higher.

Adaptation was essential as explained below, but the following adaptation can't be done if you are surrounded by humans who are suddenly thrust into a situation for which they are not prepared because they will hunt you instead of adapting:

Makes sense because the purpose of a currency is standardized, interchangeable units of measure, and bullion bars do not fit the bill.  They're only useful for industrial applications, which is why many places in Europe charge VAT on bars and not coins.  Also easier to avoid counterfeits with coins than bullion bars.

As for the future, both Hillary and Trump have talked about massive, expensive, public works projects, plus Trump has even talked about defaulting on the debt.  Tons of govt spending that won't be paid for is pretty bullish on anything that's not connected to USD debt markets.  We also reached peak oil in 2004, so extraction of anything from the earth is inherently more expensive after that date.  The markets have just not caught up to the fact yet since markets are manipulated and distorted.

We also reached peak oil in 2004, so extraction of anything from the earth is inherently more expensive after that date.  The markets have just not caught up to the fact yet since markets are manipulated and distorted.

In the end though, you will always have tyranny without metals circulated as currency in native form.  A "gold backed" currency is useless, they have to be circulated.  Bitcoin does not solve any of those issues because Bitcoin is inherently a technoracy, which is what I told Theymos in the following thread:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1654457.msg16663846#msg16663846

It seems you don't understand a shit about precious metals.

http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user5/imageroot/2016/10/26/btc%2015.jpg

See how small bitcoin is comparing to gold market? It is like a tiny sand particle on earth. I am not saying bitcoin doesn't have a future but  nothing can destroy precious metals. It is the ultimate safest choice.

Period.

You are right but only partly right. As we all know the Market Cap depends on the price of Bitcoin and on the price of precious metals. If the price of Bitcoin will go up in the future faster than the prices of precious metals the situation might change a lot.

For me its a simple case of follow the big money.

Governments, central banks and very powerful individuals are all ploughing their money into gold and there is a reason for this.

It seems you don't understand a shit about precious metals.

See how small bitcoin is comparing to gold market? It is like a tiny sand particle on earth.

Total gold market cap = $7,617,683,440,065
Total bitcoin market cap =  $11,342,306,883

bitcoin market cap = 0.1489% of gold's

I think we would have to see quite a swing in prices to see "the situation change a lot"   :D :D

A Massive 'Coronal Hole' on the Sun is Blasting Earth w/ Solar Storms That Could CRIPPLE Power (https://www.freedomsphoenix.com/News/205983-2016-10-27-a-massive-coronal-hole-on-the-sun-is-blasting-earth.htm)

https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/international-news/nature/sun-drop-in-energy-output-is-stronger-than-expected/

Here is the RT video with English CC subtitles (click the CC button):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5M9cklpcJNs

Basically the cooling with accelerate in 2020s, and then get worse in 2030s, then start to warm in 2040s.

Also stating gold is not liquid is bollocks

Liquidity? What are you taking about? We are talking about gold here, the most ancient currency of all times. Don't mix gold with bunch of anonymous internet software.

You cannot predict the future, so you cannot definitively say that silver coins will never be used as a currency again. It's highly likely they won't, but not impossible. I think plenty of people who collect gold, silver, platinum and other rare metals see beyond the physical item. There are industrial uses for these materials, as you say, which could mean they get melted down for their useful properties in electronics or plating. Like every other market in the world, the price changes on these metals due to supply and demand - that is where investors make money.

Gold is a bubble which may at any moment burst. I'm not buying gold right now and do not advise others. The price will fall.

I disagree, I think there is still a lot of upside with many predicting $5 gold by 2020.

If trump wins expect a $100 price increase overnight.

You are half true. Gold can rise $100 overnight only if Hillary gets elected, not Trump. Hillary wants to have war with Russia, not Trump. She is giving weapons to the rebels in Syria, not Trump. Yet you say if Trump gets elected we should expect a 100$ rise in gold??Nope.

The establishment wants a Hilary win, I think a trump win will make the markets nervous and thats always good for gold prices.

@ iamnotback,
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How much have you made off Bitcoin as you consider yourself such an investment guru.
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The ridiculous fear-mongering leveraging the shallow depth of most people's conception of reality in a transparent attempt to artificially inflate Bitcoin at the expense of PMs is a pattern seen in various semi-notorious and/or semi-desperate scammers over the years.

Perhaps I'll re-visit this thread to flesh things out, but the short story is:  Bitcoin and PM's are effectively the same thing with some modestly different and potentially symbiotic strengths and weaknesses.  In anything approaching a bonafide 'collapse scenario', it would behoove one to have command of both.  In a genuine collapse it could be life and death.

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You do realize I am @anonymint, also Legendary (plus a few Hero accounts as well) don't you?
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I disagree, I think there is still a lot of upside with many predicting $5k gold by 2020.

Well, my less than successful Filipino friend

In particular, a friend of mine had been a child during the Japanese occupation.  Her grandmother had a chunk of bamboo filled with American dimes and she said it got them through the whole event.  Several years as I recall.

As for sidechains, I've not paid much attention lately.  A little bit of looking just now seems to indicate that they are right on track.

When complex systems collapse, they always revert to a more primitive state.

There is no viable scenario on earth where the global economy experiences any type of serious meltdown and immediately jumps to an even more complex state (bitcoin).

The paper bills will be the main thing imploding because the coinage has an actual floor to it.  The cost to produce a nickel varies between around 5-8 cents and a penny is around 1.7 cents, so it's plausible that several denominations of coins would just keep on trucking and be utilized even if the paper currency went to zero.

Peak oil is obviously real because we extract all the low hanging fruit first (the cheapest oil)

WHAT battery technology?  I sure as hell don't see it.

It is estimated that within around 50 years we will run out of a lot of rare earth materials used in industry.

The timeline for silver is even sooner, around 20-30 years.  There is not a silver supply crunch problem, there is a supply crunch problem for everything.

It's called...

There's lots of Thorium laying around you can use for nuclear energy, but the point was that the skillset to do so is probably absent after a dark ages and you would have to work your way back up using something like coal again as a base except all the coal and oil is gone or only located somewhere like Antarctica.

When silver coins were still currency all over the world. You seem to miss the salient detail, which is indicative of why nobody should trust your weak powers of logic and discernment.
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Er, nope.  Most nations used pot-metal trinkets or confetti as legal tender which is exactly the significance of the 'American dimes' part.

You've said numerous times you're poor as a church mouse (well, close enough) and you give investment advice here? Seems legit.

Any one buying precious metals right now and not Bitcoin @$700 is an idiot.
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True (perhaps) IF they already have an ass-load of PM and no crypto (and some basic computer skilz.)

False (perhaps) IF they have have an ass-load of crypto and no PM.

Perhaps you would not have so many failures if you recognized some of the nuances of strategy.  Different people have different situations and there is no way to accurately predict the future.

BTW, it's a fair bet that free internetworking via corporate controlled global packet transmission infrastructure will fail (in one way or another) long before we hit rock bottom in a real SHTF scenario.  (By 'free' I mean free of various kinds of controls of course.)  Not that certain varieties of crypto won't be able to work in such an environment to a degree, but they won't work well for even the more technologically capable and likely not at all for the rest.  A dusty old wallet might be worth a fortune on the other side of such an event, but one needs to stay alive long enough to get there.

Plus not all part of the world recognize digital transactions because as of the moment they still have no electricty and do not know how tobuse computers.

In a collapse scenario, precious metals will be the ONLY ones that will be used.

Money's value will fall at least at the half of what it is right now, and precious metals will be used as a currency. Read about people buying food with gold in the WW2, or read about someone buying a FACTORY with a gold coin in the WW2. Paper will be worthless. Do you really think someone will ever be using paper again in a collapse? I mean.. Would you accept paper rather than gold or silver? They are the only useful currencies.

In other words, you're smart with investments but circumstances. I get it.

Please remind how your prediction from last year of BTC@150 and gold@800 has turned out?

My mistake was assuming BTC was correlated to gold, even though Armstrong never wrote that. That was my mistake, not Armstrong's. I realize now that BTC is correlated to safe haven liquidity same as the dollar and USA stocks.

Your followers are loyally waiting to buy both at lower prices.

Learning from mistakes would mean to stop making silly predictions when you got no clue.
Be my guest and put me on ignore again, because truth hurts.

I hope you mean bricks or rounds of real metal, not the 200:1 leveraged paper pushed from one brokerage account to another?

There is absolutely no merit in predicting what paper or electronic digits will do, those can do anything.

For silver in 2011 there is no record what you said about it - there is no reason to believe that you guessed it at that time.

You know well that in crypto space it's not a good habit to trust anything but code and verifiable records.

In Japan for 600+ years, rice was the only currency.

In collapse scenario, the biggest asset is a skill. A usefule skill can get you a long way.

So much for not getting emotionally invested in the market.  Your entire view of metals at this point is just hatred of the possibility that someone else might make a profit where you didn't and has nothing to do with any of the actual market dynamics.  Having 0 metals when the market implodes is probably the biggest financial mistake someone can make.

Even out of sheer principle alone you would have to be a fool to participate in the debt based currency scam when it can be avoided.

What kind of person willingly subjects themselves to being scammed on purpose?

Metals and bitcoin are the only alternative, and there are no viable solutions for decentralized currency, so the answer is pretty clear where the majority of your money has to be out of principle, wealth preservation, and chance of windfall gains when the debt based system implodes and wealth transference occurs.

You keep repeating over and over that the world is "short US dollars".  The world is not short US dollars.  Those are called unserviceable debts.  When people have no intention of fulfilling those contracts, those are toxic assets and not shorts with any type of counter party.

You would have doubled your money buying silver in 2006 (or 5x if you sold at the last top).

Literally nothing you're saying about metals makes any sense.

If you're worried about liquidity, the only type of silver you should be touching is silver eagles

Since when is Anonymint shilling for the jews? lol.  Telling people to buy stocks at the peak of the bubble (sans hyperinflation) and demonizing guns and metals.  Now I've seen everything.

Really,

So how did you buy rice?

Customer : "Hey mate i would like to buy that bag of rice please."

Shop keeper : "No problem sir, that will be 2 bags of rice thanks.

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

In a collapse where fiat and Bitcoin are completely done, silver "junk coins" will be worth more than today's dimes and quarters at the store.

8)

400% gain over several years ?

Life's a bitch ~LOL~

Hey dolt with 105 IQ, you trade a product or service in exchange for rice. That is what currency means.

I think you ought to just realize you do not have the intellect for this.

And I thought you would have the intelligence to recognise a joke.  

A good skill to have would be the ability to at least absorb data, and to be able to transfer as much as possible.  A working understanding of crypto-currencies in their various permutations may be a big bonus.   ...or it could get you killed.

Well, I was thinking more of a scenario where there's basically no electricity and people are living of the land.

Me too.

But crypto requires electricity and the internet. The main focus would not even be money, but to try to find food before dying of hunger. No stores, cops, etc.

I disagree, I think there is still a lot of upside with many predicting $5k gold by 2020.

If trump wins expect a $100 price increase overnight.

With gold and Bitcoin there is a safety rule one must follow: if you don't hold it - you don't own it. A Comex bar is fine so long as it's in your hand, not in the Comex warehouse. A bitcoin is fine so long as you hold the private key, not a book entry to your name at Coinbase or other Bitcoin "vault". It appears you keep talking about paper promises, it makes your prediction of $850 gold completely useless. The kind of fool's gold you describe will be $850 one day, on its way to zero.

So you made a prediction of silver price in the past but didn't act on your own prediction because reasons. I heard this story before, a couple of posts earlier. Reasons seem to get in your way all the time. Do you think you should learn to overcome reasons before you are in a position to teach others?

the stat that always resonates with me is that society is four unattainable meals away from anarchy. these metalheads are living in dreamland if they think anyone is going to care about their lumps of shininess in a genuine collapse.

it can happen over a long weekend and if it's clear there's no coming back any time soon then food, bullets and medicine will be the only things with any value. everything else instantly becomes abstract and 100% useless.

it's a different matter if we're talking market wobbles and nothing else, but I get the feeling the former is in the minds of many precious metal hoarders. good luck with that. see you in the cemetery.

if you were stuck in Aleppo right now with no way of getting out would you swap 20 litres of clean water, some toilet paper and a pile of preserved food for a gold coin? hey, it's shiny shiny.

In the most extreme scenarios, bullets may be the best single "currency" (USA), my lead stash is 9mm bullets (lots of them) for my Beretta.  Along with water production systems.  These cases would likely not have gold (especially) and silver valued highly, at least during the very worst parts...  Still, at some point (probably..., when?), some kind of currency almost always is chosen.  My *guess* is that the most probable candidate would be silver coins, remember we are talking about a long and drawn out time (TEOTWAWKI in this paragraph) when central governments might not be there.  Silver will always retain some value, it is useful too (kills germs in water).  Gold will be there to preserve value through a long period, like giving to your kids.

But how likely are the extremely bad  scenarios?  Ahh, not as likely, IMO, as the milder, but still bad Great Depression v.2 and its more uncomfortable "SHTF".  So, in my own planning, I have but a couple of water filters and only a nominal amount of food stored (believing that the very ugly TEOTWAWKI will NOT be what happens).  Again assuming here no HORRID scenario (no Golden Horde armies devouring everything in the landscape...), I think that gold & silver are perfectly fine as part of a diversified portfolio of holdings.

If things DO go really bad, if the Dark Ages (let's say little/no electricity for the moment), then Bitcoin ain't going to do the job!!  Yeah I know that BTC can still function at some level without an Internet, but, it will fail in actual use...

Note that CURRENCY (US$, FRNs in your actual possession, not in the bank) counts as a good asset to hold in almost ANY weird scenario...  In the early days, a $100 FRN might get you gasoline or a meal for your family if the credit card machines are down...

To my BCT friends who are goldbugs, the reason I speak frankly is because I want you to look at the situation objectively. I know from my own infatuation in the past with precious metals, that the drug of fighting back against the system is very intoxicating.

But the fact is that absent our existing governance and monetary system, a power vacuum forms, which sucks in roaming armed gangs which then gives rise to warlords. The warlords are the market makers. Feudalism. Power is a fact of physics and nature.

The only way your fantasy of a silver dime monetary barter system would take form is if you have an organized community with governance, security, and enshrining silver dimes as the monetary system to give it the confidence it needs. And then some market makers to provided the liquidity between debt, silver dimes, and production. And you have to then provide for defense against more powerful invaders, so your community can't be too small.

If you don't understand how governance, market makers (i.e. power-brokers), and the economy are all dependent on each other, then you of course will make silly fantasies about people trading silver dimes as a fall back option.

Understanding power vacuums, the power-law distribution of wealth in nature, etc.. are critical to forming a rational assessment of the future.

Money has always been what people trust and have confidence in. This doesn't mean the metal itself, but as Armstrong has explained many times it was the stamp on the metal. Even when the invaders took over the Roman Empire, they used the stamps on the coins from the former Empire because it was more trusted.

Bitcoin (crypto-currency on a blockchain) enable trustless money, where we don't have to trust any authority. We trust the decentralized protocol. Now that was the ideal. Unfortunately Satoshi's proof-of-work centralizes and thus we end up trusting Gregory Maxwell and the Chinese mining cartel.

So crypto-currency is not quite ready for being independent of the powers-that-be yet.

Someone may invent a solution. I happen to know someone who claims he may have such a solution. We'll see...

I disagree that that trust in the case of hard currencies has anything to do with authorities and the stamp on the metal they make. In fact, in medieval times you could just grab a piece of gold and take it to the royal mint where you got your royal coins stamped for a small fee. This tells us that the stamp had rather a utilitarian function than an existential one. On the other hand, if it all came down to trust in authorities, there would be no case for Gresham's Law where you had essentially the same stamp but, nevertheless, different levels of trust...

Which wouldn't be ever possible unless you in fact trusted the metal more than the stamp on it as you claim

Why did we build the largest coin collection in the world? Because coins are the documented history of the fiscal mismanagement of centuries of mankind. There is nothing that does not fluctuate even what is used for money.

The Mongols conquered China and maintained their monetary system. They honored the paper money in circulation and used that as the monetary base rather than coins.

The barbarians issued coins at first maintaining the pretense of the Roman Empire pretending that they now held the throne.

...the next target marks the end of the Roman Empire that formally falls in 476AD with the last real emperor. However, then the barbarians assume the throne for a brief period of time. They issued coins that appeared to be Roman in appearance. Effectively, at the end, the barbarians wanted to be Romans where as the Vandals just stripped even the copper from the roofs of temples in Rome.

The idea that money must be tangible also has no basis in fact. Money has been many things to many people. The entire basis of money is you will accept something as money as long as you have CONFIDENCE that in turn someone else will accept it from you.

This idea that somehow gold coin is not fiat has been so misleading. Here is a Roman tax collector gold bar because the government minted gold coins cheating in quality but refused to accept them in return for taxes. Thus, taxes were imposed based upon weight – not coins! Therefore, the gold coins of the day were not trusted and even government had no CONFIDENCE in them, which is why they were NOT legal tender (acceptable for taxes).

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Early attempts at wage and prices controls always failed from Babylonian times right up to the Wage & Price Controls of Diocletian (284-305AD) who attempted to restore silver coinage AFTER the Great Monetary collapse. It did not matter that coinage was restored. CONFIDENCE still collapsed and the coinage was rapidly hoarded and vanished from circulation. So yes, even when the money is of full value, it still will not circulate if people do not BELIEVE government. Indeed, there was still another war and finally Constantine (309-337AD) emerged as Emperor after defeating all rivals. He enjoyed some success but had to abandon Rome and created a new Capital Constantinople and revised the monetary system again.

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Government then began to stamp the image or badge of the city to impress people.However, the first city to “coin” money was also the first to discover “fiat” meaning the value is simply dictated by government

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The whole reason people began to use banks was because the “money” could not be verified. Just because the coins were silver or gold did not mean anything. They could be debased, shaved, or forged. You deposited money in a bank and the bank CERTIFIED you were paying in “good” money. People did not want coins, they wanted the bank paper receipts. Like the moneychanger, the bank was certifying the transaction was taking place with proper value in “money”. Thus, paper money began in middle ages as receipts certifying deposits.

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Ancient Egypt always had “fiat” money receipts for grain in public warehouses trading as money. They did not have any coinage until Alexander the Great conquered them in 334BC. Virginia also had the same system of tobacco receipts that circulated as money in colonial times.

China and Japan were the same. They never had circulating gold or silver coinage. This nonsense that money has to be tangible is NOT supported by the facts. Money has always been based solely upon what someone else is will to accept. Go to a WaWa or Starbucks and try to buy with a gold coin. They will not accept it. Hell, some places will not even take a $100 bill anymore and want plastic. If they do not BELIEVE gold is acceptable for payment or you hand them $1 in 1964 silver quarters to by a $5 coffee, you are out of luck. They will see it as $1 not worth $5. This is the real economy. MONEY is only valuable based upon what the OTHER person believes – not you!

It is NOT the fiat. It is simply CONFIDENCE. Bank and warehouse paper receipts have circulated as money for thousands of years. Even dollars under Bretton Woods gold standard were simply receipts redeemable in gold in international transactions. It was NOT gold that actually circulated. When people as a whole distrust government, then barter replaces official “money” and that can be a lot of things and the worse it gets the more likely it boils down to food. We have run every possible correlation and have the database to do so.

When Genghis Khan invaded China, which was using paper money, he too accepted it and did not devalue the paper money that was in circulation. He too accepted the paper money from the previous emperors.

By the time this economic implosion is over, you will PRAY for HYPERINFLATION. What we face is far worse. It is loss of everything with the risk of tanks rolling down your streets hunting money!

It has always been a confidence game. Those in power are constantly trying to boost the confidence of the people in order to stabilize their control over society. Above is a Roman coin from the tetrarchy period of Diocletian & Maximinus. The term meant “leadership of four” whereas there had been a chaotic period that spanned across 20 emperors whereby they came to power only to be overthrown by another. There was no political stability. The Emperor Diocletian sought to create political stability and established the tetrarchy where there were two emperors and two “Caesars” who were like vice presidents in waiting. The power of governing the empire was split and marked the end of the crisis of the third century.

You do not see hyperinflation in Britain or China despite the fact that both declined from major economic peaks. Money never becomes worthless in a major core society for if the core were to collapse then everything else must fall as well. Genghis Khan accepted the paper currency of China upon his conquest and did not render it worthless. It continued to circulate and he accepted it in payment himself. That is showing the Moguls wanted the dignity of conquering civilization and merely replaced the emperor.

Human nature does not change with time. It remains consistent and this is why history repeats. With the fall of Rome, the invading barbarians wanted to be Roman. Their rulers initially issued coins merely pretending to be the emperor. One of the great kings was Theodebert I (534-548AD) whose tomb is erected and still standing as if he too had been a Roman Emperor. Thus the invaders wanted to be the head of the civilization both in China and Europe showing confidence did not vanish, just a change in ownership and no hyperinflation.

The term ‘barbarous coinage’ of the 3rd century refers to imitative coins that are typically crude in style. Their origin stems from the use of Roman coins outside the empire and as a result there was a high demand that was not often met. Consequently, then shortage of official coinage was compensated by the strike of imitative coinage that was underweight, but there was no real intrinsic metal value. Like US dollars circulate in Russia and China, it is the confidence in the foreign government that provides the inherent value to the monetary instrument rather than the metal content.

Indian Ancient Imitations of Roman Coins

The peripheral economy with respect to the center core economy has routinely imitated the coinage of the dominant economy which is the financial capital of the world. In the case of India, these imitations of Roman coinage in gold are known as far back as the Roman Emperor Tiberius (14-37AD). These are imitations rather than counterfeits for the metal content is the same or at times even better. Pictured here is an Indian contemporary Indian imitation of a gold aureus of Tiberius (AV Aureus 19mm, 6.69 grams) copied from a coin struck at Lugdunum (Lyon) mint issue in modern day France which obviously made it to India.

SOMEONE sounds jealous there are no basements in the Philippines to be locked and loaded in.

The authorities had been collecting taxes in gold coins, so the population had to use the royal mint to get these coins. The authorities had also been heavily after counterfeiters, despite their own constant debasement of coinage

No problem really. But you have to:

  1. Explain what exactly I misunderstood in Gresham's Law
  2. Give a correct explanation of it

You see, just claiming that someone doesn't understand or misunderstands something won't work. Gresham's Law is not about melting coins and it has nothing to do with the melt value. Basically, it says that people don't believe the nominal value of a specie set by authorities, which directly challenges your point...

Namely, that value of a coin is the stamp on the metal

On the other hand, if it all came down to trust in authorities, there would be no case for Gresham's Law where you had essentially the same stamp but, nevertheless, different levels of trust...

Which wouldn't be ever possible unless you in fact trusted the metal more than the stamp on it as you claim

The problem is that physical silver coin is not ever going to be used as currency ever again, no matter what happens. Period.

1. We are in a digital age and no one is going backwards, no matter what happens. Period.

2. When global collapses ensues such that you think you might be able to use metal coinage, what actually happens is as follows.

In fact, they wouldn't even need to mint the coins from precious metals at all in the first place...

I don't really see why you continue challenging that point

This is just another way of saying that people no longer believe in the stamp. Or, alternately stated, they believe in the stamp only as long as the nominal value of the coin corresponds to the real metal content of it...

Which, in its turn, basically means that the stamp is pretty much irrelevant in this aspect

You can't transfer digital value when electricity and internet are down. You need substitutes. And I don't mean permanently disrupted, just a week is enough to remember the "barbaric" past. Sure, food will be a priority but those who have access to large stockpiles of food will accept barbaric metals and other such items of value. They would accept digital but electricity and internet will be turned on next week only and so they accept what they have confidence about, many people have confidence about metals. Not to mention that two-three billion people in the world don't have bank accounts (including developed countries) and aren't really accustomed to and haven't gone full digital, and I don't mean tribal people of some remote islands. Everyone knows metals, they will always have some value.

I expected that you would end up saying something along these lines. But this has evidently nothing to do with the trust that people reveal towards precious metals. You seem to have massively forgotten what you started with. Namely, that the trust that people have toward a gold specie doesn't depend on what this specie is made from, but only on the stamp of it.

Money has always been what people trust and have confidence in. This doesn't mean the metal itself, but as Armstrong has explained many times it was the stamp on the metal. Even when the invaders took over the Roman Empire, they used the stamps on the coins from the former Empire because it was more trusted.

But you still can't escape the simple question why authorities continued to use precious metals for minting coins until very recent...

And why people started evading such coins when the authorities began debasing them

Gold should bounce and rally to test the 1340 level by year-end. We need a weekly closing above the 1336 level to show some sustainability. Resistance begins at 1308 and we need a daily closing above 1319 to be impressive.

QUESTION: Mr. Armstrong; So many people keep calling for a stock market crash. At the same time, it has hung on to the 18000 level in the Dow for dear life. Do you see such a devastating crash as even possible?

https://i.imgur.com/QKzZmYN.jpg

ANSWER: No possible way. Retail participation is at near record lows. It has just started to lift begrudgingly. Even the Gallup poll on Americans shows the same thing. Retail participation is at best 55% down from 65% in 2007. Liquidity, however, is still off by 50%. This does introduce the likelihood of Flash Crashes and Flash Rallies. Such events are by no means because of a pending major crash. Just where do you put money if bonds are dead and banks a questionable? Of course some will yell gold. But gold is for the individual. Pension funds and institutional investors with billions and trillions cannot invest in gold bullion with no yield. Gold stocks, yes, but bullion no.

https://i.imgur.com/ijzEMtD.jpg

November is a Directional Change and then our next big target is January. We will be doing a Gold Video Update tomorrow.

People will use fiat money when they have it and when the other side accepts it. Hint: they will gradually stop accepting it in hyperinflation surroundings, sorry but legal tender law can't help in hyperinflation -

HYPERINFLATION has ONLY taken place in minor peripheral economies. It has NEVER taken place in a major economy. All major economies implode from deflation because as they need money, they attack their citizens destroying their own economies as we are doing right now. So while you wait for HYPERINFLATION, your taxes will rise, your rights will vanish, and you will see tanks on your streets before $30,000 gold that will still be the cost of a men’s suit. Forget this HYPERINFLATION and fiat nonsense.

We have run every possible correlation and have the database to do so. It is just hype! Just as the stock market has never peaked with the same level of interest rates, you cannot find any such evidence that if money is “fiat” then it collapses and going into HYPERINFLATION. Good sales pitch – but’s it.

By the time this economic implosion is over, you will PRAY for HYPERINFLATION. What we face is far worse. It is loss of everything with the risk of tanks rolling down your streets hunting money!

ore silver coinage AFTER the Great Monetary collapse. It did not matter that coinage was restored. CONFIDENCE still collapsed and the coinage was rapidly hoarded and vanished from circulation. So yes, even when the money is of full value, it still will not circulate if people do not BELIEVE government. Indeed, there was still another war and finally Constantine (309-337AD) emerged as Emperor after defeating all rivals. He enjoyed some success but had to abandon Rome and created a new Capital Constantinople and revised the monetary system again. That lasted for some time and once more you find silver vanishing from circulation.

QUESTION: I have done my own homework and it appears you are correct regarding monetary history and that simply because a currency is “fiat” does not result in hyperinflation, Even the Greenback of the US Civil War did not result in hyperinflation. Is it correct to say then that hyperinflation takes place only with revolutionary new governments?

ANSWER: To be precise, hyperinflation takes place when there is a collapse in confidence that supports a government so it can be an established government such as in South America. The key is the currency is not accepted by the people. That comes FIRST and then we see that they print more and more following the trend and propelling it. This is the chicken or egg dilemma. It is not the REVERSE that the supply increases and that causes the currency to decline as characterized by the gold promoters.

Hyperinflation unfolds when the people no longer trust the government and that can occur with an established government as in South America without war, but it is traditionally associated with revolution such as the American colonies during the American Revolution, French Revolution, German 1918 Communist Revolution, Russian Revolution, Hungary etc.

The British economy peaked in 1914. There was no hyperinflation thereafter despite the abandoning of the gold standard. So both the USA during the Civil War and Britain abandoned gold during war and neither entered into hyperinflation so it is true – fiat does not automatically create hyperinflation. Sorry. I believe in gold as an asset class. I do not believe in gold as the economic savior, exclusive form of money, or any other nonsense that cannot be demonstrated on a CONSISTENT basis in history.

Many people pay attention to the German Hyperinflation of the 1920’s, yet fail to understand that such an economic crisis followed the German Revolution of 1918. The German Revolution was a politically driven civil conflict in Germany at the end of World War I, which resulted in the replacement of Germany’s imperial government with a Weimar Republic.

Nonetheless, keep in mind that the Russian Revolution was 1917. Consequently, the German revolutionaries were certainly inspired by the emerging communist ideas. However, the German communists failed in their effort to hand power to soviets as the Bolsheviks had done in Russia. In Germany, it was the Social Democratic Party of Germany (SPD) leadership that refused to work with communists who supported the Bolsheviks. Moreover, the SPD feared that an all-out civil war would erupt in Germany between the communists and the German conservatives. Hence, the SPD struck a middle ground and did not plan to completely strip the old imperial elites of their power and assets. The SPD sought a compromise whereby they were integrated into the new social democratic system. The left wing fell into political fragmentation that prevented Germany from turning communist at the time. The Weimar Constitution was adopted on August 11th, 1919. It was this government that moved into hyperinflation, not the old Imperial Government.

Consequently, this was a revolutionary government. All economic activity stopped. The wealthy were scared to death. They saw the bloodshed in Russia in 1917. Capital hoarded and the velocity of money imploded. So while many point to the German Hyperinflation and then say we will enter the same result, are taking only the hyperinflation and ignoring the events that caused it. There were NO gold reserves. There were no lenders to the government. There were no bond markets. There was absolutely nothing. Nobody would dare lend anything for the fear was Germany would go the way of Russia.

This is why I say the hyperinflation of Germany and Zimbabwe are just not even plausible today.  Yet these events are touted and used as sales tools for gold and that is dangerous for when the fundamentals do not pan out, confusion and crisis follow. Feeding people bullshit stories is highly dangerous for when the truth emerges, they lose confidence rapidly.

QUESTION: Mr. Armstrong; What did people really do during the German hyperinflation? It seems that all you hear about has been people running around with wheelbarrows of cash to buy anything. Was that truly reality or just the extremes?

ANSWER:
Life actually went on. People used American dollars and other foreign currency. In December 31, 1923, Time Magazine reported that the German currency was worth almost nothing and yet $12 in American money could pay for good seats at the National Opera in Berlin to see Mattia Battistini. As countries move toward an inflation crisis, it is CONFIDENCE that collapses and so they turn to external currency. The American dollar will still rise and its usage will remain in cash transactions. Ukraine is currently using the US dollar in the face of their currency’s inflation. Zimbabwe has lost the right to print its own money. People use the currencies of other nations to this day. The same result took place in Japan when the government lost the CONFIDENCE of the people and was unable to produce money that people would accept. The Japanese used rice and Chinese coins, but not their own currency.
In Germany, people used foreign currency. The hyperinflation was the result of a collapse in CONFIDENCE of the German government. The people turned mostly to foreign currency. They did not trust the new Communist Revolutionary government. This is why the hyperinflation took place. The bulk of the people turned to commodities, and others used foreign currency. This is a standard pattern which has ALWAYS emerged. Therefore, life goes on, just as we see in Kiev. However, apartments for rent in Kiev are prices in foreign currency right now, not its domestic currency. The people lack CONFIDENCE in the government and will not retain savings in their local currency, which will propel inflation.

Hyperinflation aside, just 3% of fiat money exists in paper notes. When you don't have paper banknotes (electricity has been down for a week in your area, they promise to fix it next week), what will you do? You will trade PMs, even at a discounted metal value.

It doesn't need to be a universal unit-of-exchange, it only needs to be a unit of exchange that your local owner of food stock accepts.

I have a good feeling many of them will accept PMs as they always did and do in war times, in other calamities.

You assume that the dark or digital age will happen everywhere in the world at the same time.

The truth is there will be spreads between status of dark chaos or of digital enlightenment in different parts of the world lasting years, decades probably. This presents opportunities for exchange and liquidity, arbitrage. You only need good enough, not the best, liquidity to make a trade when you're hungry. Fiat paper money of course works best until it doesn't.

I have no time to argue with stubborn mules.

The facts for 2016:

Gold +22.5% YTD
Long Bond US Treasury TLT +9.1% YTD
SP500 +2.7% YTD

Armstrong & shills predictions for 2016:
OMG gold going to sub $1000 or even to sub $850.
Bonds US Treasury exploding to the downside (the infamous 2015.75 big bang).
SP500 skyrocketing due to capital flows.

The BS is over. No verbal (or should I say written) diarrhea is going to change anything. The emperor is naked.

Facts:

• Edward Snowden making his final move of no return to release NSA exposé on the exact turn date (April 22, 2013) for Armstrong's model of the peak of the USA empire.
• Putin officially entered the war in Syria on Oct. 1, 2015, precisely Armstrong's major ECM (Economic Confidence Model) turn date 2015.75.
• Per my prior post above, Assange+USA intelligence+FBI initiated a counter-coup against the Establishment politicians on Oct. 28, 2016, precisely to the day of the current turn date of Armstrong's ECM. Also the Bundy's were acquitted which was the first time a jury went against the Establishment in 200 years.
• Dollar is up since the peak (various currencies peaked between 2011 and 2016):
  +90% against gold
  +60% Australian dollar
  +41% British pound
  +53% Canadian dollar
  +60% Chilean peso
  +13% Chinese yuan (non-floating currency rate)
  +38% Euro
  +35% Indian rupee
  +60% Japanese yen valley-to-peak (note the dollar has slumped against yen so far in 2016)
  +43% Swiss franc
• FX exchange volume $5.3 trillion daily (http://www.reuters.com/article/bis-survey-volumes-idUSL6N0GZ34R20130905), versus $3 billion monthly (http://www.lbma.org.uk/clearing-statistics) for precious metals
• USA DJIA up +75% in same period. Armstrong's model has been predicted a double to triple since 2011.
• Armstrong's War Cycle model pinpointing Ukraine, Middle East, and rapefugees crisises decades before they occurred.
• etc

You'd have to be a fucking blind moron to not see what is going on.

Idiots always think they are correct

The Rothschilds apparently like gold a lot.  It is not at all clear how much they own, but is reputed to be substantial...  Where else are you going to invest your $billion$ after you have plenty of castles and vineyards?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rothschild_family

It would not surprise me at all if the Rs own many tonnes of gold.

Do the Rothschilds know something you don't?   :)

That family is the classic example of owning lots of quietly held gold, passed down through the generations (other wealthy Europeans have been doing the same for centuries).

Maybe somebody should tell him we are end 2016 and not end 2015. He seems a bit lost  :D

COMMENT: Marty, the gold bugs are at it again desperately trying to say you are wrong as always and just misrepresent whatever they can. They acknowledge you called for new highs in the Dow, but claim even that was not until 2013 when I read about your forecast back in 2011 in Barrons. They seem to be so desperate to try to prove you wrong yet they have never been right. They do not understand anything about markets. You are correct. They are as bad as politicians preaching the same nonsense and then misrepresent your record to tell lies. They do not mention you said gold would rally up to 1362 and back down. Unbelievable how dishonest and unethical these people are especially ——–.


Thank you for being straight up

KW

REPLY: The gold promoters have a single agenda and are not students of the market. They are just wrong on their theories, and you are right, they are like politicians. Every election is vote for me for change. It seems like vote for me because I have been less wrong than my opponent. They cast everything into right or wrong and shun trying to learn anything the markets are telling us. They cannot learn because they have a predetermined fixed image of how the world should be. They only focus on gold and cannot see what else exists in the world or how everything is connected. They function the same as central bankers who try to talk markets up by giving false impressions of reality. It’s a shame how many people they ruin because they are fixed on one scenario (And yes, the forecast for new a high was made at the bottom of the ECM back in 2011 when Barrons reported that forecast). The lift-off for the Dow to move to new highs with our first target 18500 could NEVER have been correct if gold did not also peak in 2011 and turn down. They have fought that decline all the way.

Look. We need fools on the other side of reality in order to trade against them. They are the fuel that makes markets move. It’s a shame how many people lost money lining the pockets of bankers because of these people. Nothing happened on October 1 when the world was coming to an end because the IMF included the Chinese yuan in the SDR. They thought that Shanghai would start trading “real” gold, not paper, and that New York would have collapsed by now. Their scenarios are childish and absurd to say the least. They have no respect for people. They are like Hillary: it’s all about them.

This is a battle of us against them. They are on the side of the establishment, preaching the same story that made the bankers rich and selling into every high they chased up the flagpole

Question for you.

What is the most ideal money system?

In the now Id suppose this would be the system with the most liquidity and fungibility.

However if one was to theorize what the most ideal money system was, what would it

Thinking towards your better then steemit line of thought. The next generation social network would do well to focus on these things. Allow the economy(trade of goods and services) to flourish freely. Decentralize food preparation and distribution. (Ie: uber/air bnb like: you cook some extra food and use a local service to sell and deliver it, build a rep, etc). Decentralize security, neighborhood militia, cop liasons, neighborhood watch, etc. Decentralize transportation, uber.

(Decentralization in this case, still uses a network as the centralizer, however it allows regular people to participate. Ie: gives the purpose..a job, when no ones hiring)

The problem is that the very metal these chunks were minted from was considered money (in whatever form and state), not the stamp impressed on it as you and your buddy Armstrong erroneously claim. In other words, people trusted the metal, not the stamp.

I have already told that people paid a relatively small fee (several percentages) for having royal coins minted from the gold or other coins they had brought to the royal mint. And that fee was the real "market" price of the stamp. This can be very easily explained by the fact that every king or emperor had been minting and accepting as legal tender his own coin, so the stamp itself cost virtually nothing. For the simple reason that rulers back then had been killed, assassinated, and overthrown every other day. The invaders that took over the Roman Empire fit into this scheme of things perfectly...

Just imagine what your 100 dollar bill would be worth if it had been outlawed every time a new POTUS came to power

They debased the coins in the Roman Empire and got away with it up to a point, because people trust the stamp and the strength of emperor stamped on it. But eventually the emperors were being overthrown every decade, so the stamp had to be backed by more metal value in order to bring back the confidence.

Also modern banking and paper money had not yet been invented in Western Europe yet, and I believe not until Florence, Italy if I am not mistake. China had already invented paper money (http://fourriverscharter.org/projects/Inventions/pages/china_papermoney.htm) though.

So if the government is perceived to be strong and stable (e.g. the USA since at least WW2), then that government can debase the hell out of their fiat, which is exactly what the Fed has been doing with the world's reserve currency and formerly strongest military power.



No one stopped using FRNs and zinc pennies and quarters. The USA government is still perceived to be strong. But we are witnessing the fall of the USA empire now. Exactly as predicted by Armstrong's model. In fact, Armstrong's model for the US empire peaked on the day Edward Snowden made his final move of no return for releasing the NSA exposé.

You are trying to hide the lack of substance behind verbiage. Public confidence is not a thing that exists by itself. It is an aggregate of personal attitudes and preferences ("personal value system" as you called it) toward something (in that case, the stamp, as you put it). You won't make me believe that people trusted the stamp when it changed a few times during their lifetime. In the early history of money the stamp meant essentially nothing. In Europe, people didn't use gold coins in everyday life. Such coins were used for paying taxes and for hoarding (by gold content and totally irrespective of the stamp minted on them). In other words, the public confidence in the stamp was negligible beside the public confidence in the metal itself...

Otherwise, rulers of all sorts might have safely used fiat instead of precious metals

And so what? This doesn't in the least mean that people always had, have or will have that public confidence in the stamp you are talking about.

Why physical gold matters and will matter for a long time to come.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-11-10/gold-price-skyrockets-india-after-currency-ban

Precious metals is a relic of the past. Their main property is resistance to oxidation. Now chemistry allows the use of other metals with such properties. I think the price of gold will fall.

Why physical gold matters and will matter for a long time to come.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-11-10/gold-price-skyrockets-india-after-currency-ban

India is unique in that gold jewelry is ubiquitously worn (especially by females) as a form of savings. Nevertheless gold is gradually dying as unit-of-exchange in India and electronic currency is growing my leaps and bounds. It won't be long before gold is an ancient relic in India also.

He is saying that ~2018ish when the defaults go bezerk, the central banks will be trapped, and the global elite will close the financial system, so that the elites can buy up all the distressed corporations and assets, before they reopen the financial system.

Hard assets will preserve wealth long-term but they won't be liquid during that period:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1665943.msg16749910#msg16749910


For liquidity, you are going to need crypto-currency. And that is why you need crypto-currency with billions of users for massive liquidity. Bitcoin isn't going to get us there fast enough. That is why I will release the "Bitcoin killer" early 2017.

India, China, the Middle East, North Africa, even rap culture in Afro-american gettos -  for billions of people gold and gold jewelry is strongly rooted in their culture. Women request gold as gifts from finances and husbands. You can't change that easily. White nerds can't change that. I don't expect gold to take a downturn any time soon. With Trump promising infrastructure spending, lowering taxes and having to finance a good part of legacy social programs to avoid complete chaos, inflation will rain. It can't be anything but positive for gold, the erosion of fiat value even white nerds will understand.
I mean real gold. Not the paper promises the price of which will eventually go to zero.

You don't trade a $1000 gold chain for dozen eggs.

And nobody wants your stupid silver rings in exchange for the precious food. They want other forms of food, water, ammo, or medicines.

You'll learn the hard way, just as you did when Trump won as I predicted and gold declined as I predicted.

gold is not hard to counterfeit.
 

I went to convert my banned banknotes into new ones. The largest amount one can have converted is Rs 4,000 ($60), until further notice. There was a huge rush of people at the bank. Arguments were erupting, as people refused to stand in queues and the banks gave no explanation of what needed to be done. Fights were breaking out.

Full story:
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-11-16/stunning-scenes-panic-gold-price-skyrockets-india-after-currency-ban

Only $60 worth of old bank notes are allowed to be converted, the rest of bank paper notes if you have them are wiped out. Now you tell me with a straight face that precious metals are not useful?

Demonetisation impact: $1 billion worth of gold imported so far since Nov 9

Only $60 worth of old bank notes are allowed to be converted, the rest of bank paper notes if you have them are wiped out. Now you tell me with a straight face that precious metals are not useful?

seems iamnotback was wrong

Gold is supposed to be trading at $2380 oz on the black market in India currently

Gold is impossible to counterfeit as its an element. 

People try to make fake bars/coins that look similar but there are always give away signs if you have half a clue.

Fake coins always lack the correct detail.
Specific gravity test.
Ping test.
XRF test.
Acid test.
Ultrasonic test.
Weight.
Dimensions.

seems iamnotback was wrong  ::) ::)

Prime example of why you should always hold gold for when fiat goes tits up.

Gold, silver and other assets can still be used by society and held as reserve capital.

Agreed and it will be used by the very wealthy for that purpose (in a weighted basket in the SDRs), but my point is precious metals won't be liquid as a daily unit-of-exchange in a Mad Max collapse scenario.

Precious metals can help you preserve wealth over long periods of time, but it is not a liquid asset when the people around you desperately need food, water, medicine, and guns. And the gold dealers have been basically shut down by the lack of a futures market makers and banking system. You won't have enough size to call up Rothschilds or other wealthy elite and negotiate a deal with your gold. Gold at our size of holdings is really only useful when the financial economy is functioning, not in a Mad Max collapse scenario.

I agree with you actually, i think that precious metals can help survive people in some cases, if they can travel across the globe with some of it,
and sell the gold in the other country, then he can get a full price right? This is pretty smart if you can have luck

There you go again (laughing off his censorship) repeating the same mistake you've said you learned not to repeat. You are again falling into a groupthink because it fits your pre-disposed idolization of gold and passive HODL investment.


1. Never follow a person who censors. Because you will surely be falling into an ignorant groupthink.

2. He apparently deleted all my posts, but there are still numerous comments in his archives from my comments in his blog in 2010 and followup comments by his regulars in 2011 referring to me and you can see for example that everything I wrote came true precisely as I said it would:

http://fofoa.blogspot.com/2011/02/wendys-open-forum-part-2.html?showComment=1298707848032#c2632150332687079466


Note the above comment was essentially referring to my 2010 public prediction for silver to peak at $45 then fall to $26 which came true in 2011 (http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article23786.html).


http://fofoa.blogspot.com/2011/09/once-upon-time.html?showComment=1315847853994#c4273984744101237708


The above comment is referring to the criticism of gold I had leveled in this extremely popular published article (http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article20327.html) I wrote (45,716 reads as of today).

I was warning about the coming confiscations via taxation back in 2010, way before Armstrong started writing about it.

The problem for gold holders is that if gold rises from $1000 to $5000, thus $5000 only buys what $1000 used to buy, and the USA capital gains tax rate is unchanged at 28% (or more likely increased significantly), then gold holders will actually lose purchasing power.

Those idiots at FOFOA's censored corral can't even do basic arithmetic.

What is also likely is that gold will be declared a source of funding for terrorism, and thus anyone who can't show a trail of where the income came from to buy the gold, and convince the authorities that it was no drug money or other form of money laundering or terrorism, then the gold will be confiscated. And with the rule of law collapsing, the authorities can declare it what ever they want, regardless of your proof of trail. And the problem you have is where to dispose of your gold, because for sure the authorities will regulate all the dealers to accomplish their expropriation.

FOFOA is off his rocker if he thinks the powers-that-be are going to allow an upward revaluation of gold that rewards decentralized individual millionaire holders of gold. As gold moves up in value (destroying the real economy and velocity of money, because gold does not trade it just sits in a vault), the incentive for the masses to increase taxation and capital controls increase.

And we are now in a digital era where physical barter is becoming more and more futile as digital efficiencies and travel increase.

FOFOA is living in some sort of delusional, fantasy bubble insulated by his censorship. He is going to destroy a lot of investors who have fallen into his groupthink.


http://fofoa.blogspot.com/2010/07/timing-is-everything.html?showComment=1278139629430#c5165311165134739291


And here is the main thread where my comments were deleted, but we can still read the replies:

http://fofoa.blogspot.com/2010/06/old-hyperinflation-question.html


The comment above is thought provoking (i.e. that price of private assets will rise accordingly to offset any rise in taxation), except the capital that rushes into gold will be expropriated because it is tangible and can't be disposed without the authorities knowing it, because there won't be any more physical black markets (or you won't want to regularly trade in them because you become a marked man).

Instead the capital that rushes into anonymous crypto-currencies will survive.


The comment above is the usual genre of category (taxonomy) error people make.

He is comparing the USA or Europe (where we investors are) to a situation where a small country destroyed its currency (or capital controls) and the people chose to use an reliable external country's currency, e.g. US Dollars.

The people in the USA and Europe are not going to abandon the dollar and euro, not until the authorities declare a monetary reset.

Thus there won't be any widespread, physical blackmarket in the USA or Europe! If you do find some oddballs to trade your gold with outside of the regulated dealers, then these will most likely be littered with scammers knowing that you are in a desperate situation and who want to separate you from your gold (even follow you back to your house to get all of it).

We are not headed into a period of hyperinflation and abandonment of fiat currencies! We are headed into massive deflation and a huge rise in kidnapping, crime, and the collapse of rule of law.

These idiot goldbugs are delusional!

You cannot predict the future, so you cannot definitively say that silver coins will never be used as a currency again. It's highly likely they won't, but not impossible. I think plenty of people who collect gold, silver, platinum and other rare metals see beyond the physical item. There are industrial uses for these materials, as you say, which could mean they get melted down for their useful properties in electronics or plating. Like every other market in the world, the price changes on these metals due to supply and demand - that is where investors make money.

When you start introducing or excluding stuff to improve your argument ... you actually win the argument for me because you destroy your claim in the process.

Linking money to gold, it was an attempt to limit the money supply. Since it ceased to do economic relations have moved into the political. The price of gold is inflated and at any time may fall.

I get the point, but I don't think I would call that debasement, more like rent seeking behavior.  And yea, if anyone actually can form a cartel or monopoly in crypto, you do have a mirror of the rent seeking behavior central bankers use to extract wealth, or essentially skim off the top until they own it all.  This is why they hate serfs using gold and silver, because it's difficult to skim off someone physically holding the currency in their hand and defending it with an AR15.

Dollar up, gold down.

Who didn't hear me (and Armstrong) incessantly when gold peaked at $1362?

Gold today $1188.

On the way to $1050. Then possibly $850. We'll have a bottom eventually and then 2018ish or so gold can shine again.

...
Just imagine how you would trade your gold for a loaf of bread in a collapse scenario... You'd have to have a tiny fraction of a gold bar to be able to do that - whilst it is easy-as with cryptocurrencies like BTC.

I don't think that the divisibility issue would last very long in a collapse scenario.  Basically any convenient item would take over the 'exchange' roll and be priced against the 'backing store' naturally by market forces.  Gold would be the most likely 'backing store' in a situation where crypto were not sufficiently developed to work off-grid and/or under successful attack (technical and/or legal and/or sociological, etc.)

Here in the U.S. and in many other places I would expect that formerly fiat (but post-silver) coin would take on the 'exchange currency' role.  At least for a period of time.  There is enough kicking around to provide the necessary liquidity and not become so valuable that successful forgery were practical.

Correction: prices of paper promises of gold backed by nothing are down. Not gold, the metal, at retail stores.

I don't think that the divisibility issue would last very long in a collapse scenario.  Basically any convenient item would take over the 'exchange' role and be priced against the 'backing store' naturally by market forces.  Gold would be the most likely 'backing store' in a situation where crypto were not sufficiently developed to work off-grid and/or under successful attack (technical and/or legal and/or sociological, etc.)

Correction of your incorrection, I already rebutted that illogic upthread. Why you repeat your same error is beyond me.

You can either buy Comex bars at spot then trade them for bullion later when the price rises, or you can buy a paper contract and then trade for bullion when it rises.

You tinfoil hats are so funny.

No, you did not. In your imagination maybe.

At Comex they sell gold contracts backed at 1:100. If 2 out of 100 people ask for delivery, poof, Comex has a provision to settle them in cash. When the price rises, you can't swap these contracts for bullion unless you're one of the 1% with connections.

I can buy Comex bars near spot at FidelityTrade. Was doing during the 2008/2009 price collapse.

There weren't just 100 people buying, so you buying them didn't make a difference. 2 out of 100 is not about people, it's about ratio of delivered to what they keep in warehouses. They could deliver 1 of 100 sold contracts, they would have to settle in cash if 2 of 100 sold contracts were asked to be delivered.

The hunt for money is intensifying with the aid of banks no less. India was the balloon. They simply canceled the current with no notice and imposed a 90% tax on anyone holding the high denomination notes. This is how the world governments operate. The first bail-in was done in Cyprus.

A backing store requires a deep liquid market maker. This can't exist when everyone is willing to kill him and take his gold.

In the MadMax scenario everything reverts to chaos and warlords. Money can't develop. That is why food becomes money. Sorry.

Here is the 90% tax coming on your gold:


I warned about this years ago:

http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article20327.html

Here is the 90% tax coming on your gold:


I warned about this years ago:

http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article20327.html

Boys FidelityTrade has the bars in stock. I don't have to buy a Comex contract.  :P

It's a tax on government money. Physical gold is immune to this crap. If you have it.

It's a drop in a bucket. Think big, think scale.

Not immune. Unless you want to bury in the ground.

Here is the 90% tax coming on your gold:


I warned about this years ago:

http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article20327.html

They can make high denomination notes no longer legal tender forcing people to change to lower value notes imposing a tax at the same time.

You cannot make gold worthless and impose a tax and force people to convert to fiat - The gold confiscation in America proves this as only a tiny % was ever handed over to the government.

Marty; I find the Global Market Watch really amazing. The talk of India banning gold imports could lead to a crash you have warned about under $1,000. The weekly level in gold came up and said about to crash and even caught the high the week of 07 November. The monthly also caught the high and said it was important back in July. But the monthly level at the close of October said a waterfall in motion. It seems like the GMW can even anticipate fundamentals. I really do not understand how the gold bugs keep attacking you. It appears they enjoy losing.

ANSWER: The Global Market Watch is purely pattern recognition. It is a confirming tool to cycles and reversals. It did a good job on gold. Yes, there are two risks to gold. First the ban by India, but second, as the debt crisis explodes, we will see more central bank selling. We will do a report on gold for year-end. Nothing has changed from what we laid out months ago or at the WEC.

Here comes $850:

Life is about stability + security.. AKA: Back up plans.

India Economy Falls into Chaos – Dollar Rise in Huge Demand

US dollars are soaring in premiums on the street. There is a serious risk that the government has shaken the confidence of the people to such a degree, that they trust the US dollar more than their own currency.

...

When Japan would routinely devalue the outstanding currency in the same manner each time a new emperor took the throne, the population responded by using rice and Chinese coins. The Indian economy is turning to the dollar. Physical dollars are commanding a premium because they can politically trust the dollar and not their own currency.

They will need to switch to Bitcoin to escape from government taxes:

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/after-complaints-of-printing-variations-rbi-says-new-rs-500-rs-2000-notes-legal/

And what was that tinfoil hat nonsense about Indians turning to gold as a currency which I rebutted upthread:

Well you have defo lost all credibility with me :

"Gold premiums in India jumped to their highest in 21 months, as demand surged after the government abolished two high-value currency notes"

http://in.reuters.com/article/asia-gold-demand-idINKBN1360OI

Sadly yes indian dont love to pay taxes but i am totally against it because there is a huge lot of black money in our country which is slowing down country's progress for sure,thats why that strong step being taken to remove all those black money.

Bitcoin can be an option but still to buy bitcoin people have to first deposit their cash to bank account and then buy bitcoin and i that way government can track that big amount is being deposited but yes they can never know how much bitcoins have been holded and hence cannot take tax for that.

Call me crazy, but I just read about the situation in India with everyone scrambling at the banks to get rid of the banned currency...and the Cypress situation that happened a couple of years ago, and Greece.  I remember those things, and every. Time. I . Do. I realize how so very fucking important it is to have physical assets.  Gold & silver, weapons, and real estate.  All good things to have, because any government can do exactly what India just did and declare their money worthless.  Think about it.

You don't want to own a lot of real estate. Government can tax it as they please. It's called "real" estate for a reason: real is "royal, belongs to the king" in Spanish. Peasants don't own real estate, including in modern democracies. You don't own something you have to pay a tax on.

You don't want to own a lot of real estate. Government can tax it as they please. It's called "real" estate for a reason: real is "royal, belongs to the king" in Spanish. Peasants don't own real estate, including in modern democracies. You don't own something you have to pay a tax on.

Because u think wrong about money
Money isnt asset
Money is a measure unite
Money is a protocol for measure stuffs

If you have a chicken and i have tomatoes, how we can exchange good?

My tomatos value are 20 credits
Your chicken value, 200 credits... i need 180 credits more for exchange with you

But the value isnt "the credits" , no, the value is the stuff

Money now,is numbers, is an hash.. isnt assets

Precious metals is still a good asset unlike real estate where government can tax you yearly. Precious metals are compact and you won't lose your wealth from any hacks unless it is stolen. Although precious metals are outdated, they are still useful in certain situations.

Could you care to explain how you drew such a profound conclusion on my understanding of money from the remark I made on not wanting to buy too much real estate?

When you eat much much icecream you got stomachache, or if you drink much much beer, you get drunk
same with assets, if you own MUCH MUCH assets of one type (much buildings for egsample) you CAN have some problems

the trick is own different assets
- 30% real estate
- 30% gold bars
- 10% silver bars
- 20% bitcoins
etc

different assets win because you become resilient

if building price FALL DOWN, you lost only 30%  -- this property is called resilience

edit: this is my humble opinion

So what budget is the above based on because real estate is not cheap in the UK.

A cheap house in the UK is £100k

So by your figures:

£100k rental property
£100k gold
£33k silver bars
£66k bitcoin

Total investment requirement = £299k

- 60% real estate
 - 40% others..

Since you don't really own real estate because you have to pay however high taxes government comes up with, 60% is too much for allocating to real estate. You'll be spending a lot of your cash to service it, maybe all of the remaining cash.

money isn't useful during a collapse anyway.
But precious metals are useful to carry your wealth through a collapse,
so that once the collapse is over, you have something to build on.

Precious metals are not to be used "during" a collapse,
that's just stupid

-sf-

i agree totally
and.. in dark period (like war) government confiscate all precious metals (gold, silver,..) and usefull metals (iron, copper,...)

the history teach

I had a conversation in a hotel with someone who was very much a believer in man created global warming. I began to notice a pattern to their thinking. When you test anything, you must see how it is connected to other reasoning. What emerged was a fundamental belief that government is good and there to take care of you until you die. This notion appears to be linked to those who just want to be taken care of, but not to the point that they are on welfare. They will pretend to be independent thinking individuals, but there is a core surrender of independence because they do not want to think no one is in charge. They voted for Hillary as well, and this all seems linked to this desire not to be responsible for the future in a subtle way. Perhaps it is linked to childhood when you did not have to work or cook. They just took care of you. It seems that those who believe in global warming are more likely to trust government. What happens when they wake up and discover nothing is as they thought it would be?

Merkel and Hollande were the pillars of Europe. Taking out BREXIT was the first leg of the stool, Hollande was the second leg of this three-legged stool holding up Europe. The collapse of confidence behind the euro is directly tied to politics. Remove Merkel, and we will begin to see how quickly Europe will unravel.

This is the Year from Political Hell. Keep in mind that CONFIDENCE underscores EVERYTHING. You accept a dollar bill for your labor only because you have the CONFIDENCE that someone else will accept it in return. All markets rest upon a seabed of CONFIDENCE. Undermine that foundation, and then the house of cards will fall. It will not fall without changing the mindset of the majority. You will never convince them with stories of fiat, money supply, or gold. Undermine their belief system, then you will see change – not before. You will NEVER convince the majority with stories of hyperinflation, quantity of money theories, or any economic theory. Once the political world changes, then there is no certainty left to support the future. Santa Claus is not there to make sure your life will be the dream. Suddenly, those in the West will have to learn the same lesson of those in Russia and Eastern Europe – you just cannot count on government for anything.

The Venezuelean hyperinflation is the direct result of what happens when the general population loses all confidence in the government. The current hyperinflation is reminiscent of Germany’s hyperinflation following World War I, which was also the result of a Communist Revolution and the overthrow of the government giving birth to the Weimar Republic.  Venezuela’s currency has become virtually worthless as was the case in Japan when the people simply refused to accept any coins issued by the Japanese government. In that instance, each new emperor devalued the outstanding money supply to 10% of his new issues. This led to Japanese accepting Chinese coins, but not Japanese.

As the prices of goods continue to soar, shopkeepers in Venezuela have taken to weighing bolivars and the black market for alternative currencies – namely U.S. dollars — is becoming prevalent.

The key to hyperinflation is NOT the issue of money, but the collapse in public confidence. The drop in confidence then causes the government to print more to meet its expenses. The assumption it is the increase in money supply assumes people blindly just look at the quantity of money. It is the fact people ANTICIPATE the collapse and act accordingly, which then causes the government to increase the money supply.

An economics professor at a local college made a statement that he had never failed a single student before, but had recently failed an entire class. That class had insisted that Obama’s socialism worked and that no one would be poor and no one would be rich, a great equalizer.

The professor then said, “OK, we will have an experiment in this class on Obama’s plan”.. All grades will be averaged and everyone will receive the same grade so no one will fail and no one will receive an A…. (substituting grades for dollars – something closer to home and more readily understood by all).

After the first test, the grades were averaged and everyone got a B. The students who studied hard were upset and the students who studied little were happy. As the second test rolled around, the students who studied little had studied even less and the ones who studied hard decided they wanted a free ride too so they studied little.

The second test average was a D! No one was happy. When the 3rd test rolled around, the average was an F.

As the tests proceeded, the scores never increased as bickering, blame and name-calling all resulted in hard feelings and no one would study for the benefit of anyone else.
To their great surprise, ALL FAILED and the professor told them that socialism would also ultimately fail because when the reward is great, the effort to succeed is great, but when government takes all the reward away, no one will try or want to succeed. Could not be any simpler than that.

This claim that Hillary won the popular vote is interesting. If we exclude California’s 3.7 million margin for Hillary over Trump, that means Trump got 1.7 million more votes than Hillary in the whole country eliminating California. She is claiming perhaps the votes were hacked in Michighan, Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania. What about California? If it was rigged for her against Bernie, can it be trusted at all? California is the most left-leaning state in the union. They tax the highest as if you lived in Germany. If you live in California, stay away from dividend stocks and get out of the state if you plan to retire. In California, the top rate is 13.3%. Hawaii comes in not far behind at 11%. And California is in an endless cycle of raising taxes because it is incapable of managing its affairs. The worse states to retire in are the Blue (Democratic States) with New York the WORST and California in the top 10. You work hard your whole life and then they still demand more even when you no longer work. So much for caring for the average working person.

The entire election cycle seems to reflect Karl Marx’s view that supported his theory of a totalitarian state:

There is a statute that governs the appointment of electoral college “electors” that will come into play if anyone tries to upset the election. While the College is to vote on December 19th, 2016, the actual deadline is 6 days prior or December 13th, 2016. Moreover, if there were an attempt to vote for Hillary despite the fact that the election is based upon state rights since this is the “UNITED STATES” and not one sovereign federal state, this becomes very critical. Even if Hillary won the popular vote, that cannot legally matter.

Let’s say 25 million aliens became citizens in New York City and they all voted for one candidate. To allow that to decide the election and not state by state, destroys the very fabric of what the “united states” was all about converting it to a single federal state. The popular vote cannot be allowed to overrule the states or you will find that the less populous states can be subjugated by the majority. They would no longer have any voice in a democratic process. Yes Hillary has 2 million more votes than Trump. But that is attributed to California alone where her margin was 3.7 million. So if she takes the presidency on popular vote, that means California decides for all and the rest of the country means nothing. Therefore, this would violate equal protection of the law right to the very heart of the design of the USA. If the electoral college anointed Hillary, this would be grounds for separatist movements and I would have to support that because it would be a fundamental restructuring on the nation ending the “united” states and federalizing the nation. The Electoral College thus ensures equal protection of the law for all states and it is the majority of states that matter, not individuals as a whole nationwide. The United States is by no means ONE COUNTRY with just ONE CULTURE. There are at least four separate regional difference just as there are cultural differences in Europe between member states.

We are entering a very dark phase in this battle to retain our liberty. A proposal now being whispered behind the curtain in Europe is to impose a tax on withdrawing your own money from an ATM. The banks support this measure as a whole because they see this as preventing bank runs.

Nobody will look at the direction we are headed. I am deeply concerned that these type of proposals will send the West in a real revolution not much different from that of Russia in 1917. The divide between left and right is getting much deeper and the left is hell bent on stripping those who produce of their liberty and assets. This type of confrontation is in line with our War Cycle, which we will update in 2017.

This is the most dangerous period we are heading into for governments will respond only in their own self-interest to survive. The socialists hate those who produce. That is just the bottom line. Nobody should have wealth more than they and this is the same human emotion that has cost tens of millions of lives in civil conflicts through out the centuries. Proof this is a persistent problem is the fact that even the Ten Commandments state clearly that socialism is wrong: “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house … or anything that belongs to your neighbor” (Exodus 20:17).  Nevertheless, this is repuidiated by socialists who say it’s not fair that anyone has something more than they do. This material jealousy has been the source of so much death throughout the centuries because it has been exploited by the ruling class to justify their theivery.

The war on cash is in full swing. The whispers behind the curtain are starting to get louder. The headlines in Australia demonstrate how the press is already conspiring against the people. The new slogan rising is Cash is for Criminals. ABC of Australia ran the story:

Cash is for criminals: Why we should scrap big notes

US dollars are soaring in premiums on the street. There is a serious risk that the government has shaken the confidence of the people to such a degree, that they trust the US dollar more than their own currency. Prime Minister Narendra Modi has come out an said the currency changeover could still take a few weeks and could lead to inconveniences, according to the magazine Brics. The Indian economy is a highly cash transacted economy far more so than the United States and Europe. The government has brought the economy to a virtual standstill. Food stores are near closing because the customers have no money. Small and medium-sized enterprises have stopped functioning because the invoices are not paid for.

When Japan would routinely devalue the outstanding currency in the same manner each time a new emperor took the throne, the population responded by using rice and Chinese coins. Japan lost the ability to even issue coins for 600 years. The Indian economy is turning to the dollar. Physical dollars are commanding a premium because they can politically trust the dollar and not their own currency.

I saw NBA legend Kevin Garnett using the term "not progressive enough" on national TV in his condemnation of coaching great Phil Jackson (when Jackson referred to Lebron's "posse").

The country with the highest demand for gold (India), just outlawed gold. Shit just got real. Citizens homes will be searched and 85% of wealth will be confiscated.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/No-tax-on-jewellery/gold-purchased-out-of-disclosed-income-Finance-Ministry/articleshow/55724734.cms

Looks like India currently requires Digital Gold for many in order to avoid permanent seizure in the amount of 85% of their assets as "TAX"... Bitcoin demand is going to rocket. Expecting record demand. Killer app activated.

Many analysts predicted such a move would likely occur and thus dampen gold demand in India. However this demand will likely shift to other products like bitcoin.

India is the second most populous country (with over 1.2 billion people), and the most populous democracy in the world.

The country with the highest demand in the world for gold, just outlawed gold. Shit just got real.

"Your gold is safe. 500 grams per married woman will not be seized..."

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/gold-jewellery-married-lady-income-tax-raids-demonetisation/1/824321.html

"During search operations, conducted by I-T Department, there would be no seizure of gold jewellery and ornaments to the extent of 500 grams per married women, 250 grams per unmarried women as also 100 grams per male member of the family, it said.

The Bill, which is currently under consideration of the Rajya Sabha, will amend Section 115BBE of the Income Tax Act to provide for a steep 60 per cent tax and a 25 per cent surcharge on it (total 75 per cent) for black money holders.

Another section inserted provides for an additional 10 per cent penalty on being established that the undeclared wealth is unaccounted or black money, taking the total incidence of levies to 85 per cent."

What were those tinfoil hats babbling about India and gold upthread...  ::)

They can outlaw it all they want, they can't enforce the ban. People will ignore the stupid law. You're a white American boy, you are trained to respect authority and laws no matter how stupid they are (latinos and blacks in US are better equipped naturally to withstand this bullshit). People in the rest of the world aren't as trustful of their governments and are not inclined to abide by such laws. This particular law is not just stupid, it's designed to take away people's means of living when population already knows the government is corrupt. Rest assured that this outlawing gold together with earlier revoking of large bank notes irreparably undermines Indian government's legitimacy, which is a sure way to spawn all sorts of underground economy means and routes. So yeah, let them bring it on to the faster destruction of the top-down imposed fiat.

Shit just got real. Citizens homes will be searched and 85% of wealth will be confiscated.

India has not banned gold, there are rumours at this point and nothing more.



What they are going door to door looking for gold in a population of 1.3 billion people after giving advance notice they are coming, good luck with that  ;D ;D ;D ;D

People in the rest of the world aren't as trustful of their governments and are not inclined to abide by such laws.

You're a white American boy, you are trained to respect authority

(latinos and blacks in US are better equipped naturally to withstand this bullshit)

So when has the Communist government ever stopped at its original limited action?

This is only the first step.

The leader of India was put there by Goldman Sachs. He is there to move India to electronic currency. Watch and observe how it is done by turning the poor against all forms of cash.

And it seem both of you imbeciles forgot that the main point of this thread is not whether you can bury your gold in the ground (I never denied that), but whether you can spend your gold for anything in a collapse scenario.

My quoted logic had nothing to do with the "state".


I think microtransactions are the big enchilada. And not just monetary microtransactions.

Anonymity is so incredibly unrealistic and it is fighting against the socialism. Please see my prior post which was a refutation of the tinfoil hats. I have more debate with them at the following thread:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1665943.0

Although I originally was a tinfoil hat and originally touted the importance of anonymity, I am now coming to the realization that we don't win by hiding from society. We win by changing the economy of society.

Ah yes I was thinking it was 500 ounces.
500 grams is much less, but I still doubt the average person owns $20,000 worth of gold.
This will still only have an effect on the very wealthy. Some might buy some Bitcoin, but I assume most are going to hide money in offshore accounts and companies outside their country.

I will be the first to admit I needed a week to fully absorb the following works of AnonyMint.

The Rise of Knowledge (http://www.coolpage.com/commentary/economic/shelby/Demise%20of%20Finance,%20Rise%20of%20Knowledge.html) <--- READ THIS
Understand Everything Fundamentally (http://www.coolpage.com/commentary/economic/shelby/Understand%20Everything%20Fundamentally.html)

Together these are quite simply the most insightful piece of economic theory I have ever read.

If the author is right and I think he is we are all in the midst of a tragedy of epic proportions.  It is sad unstoppable and will devastate the lives of much of humanity.

...

Those fools who ignored me when I told you to sell gold at $1362 before the election and to buy Bitcoin in the mid-$600s, are going to end up big losers if they keep listening to these idiot tinfoil hats such as r0ach and his nonsense silver argument. Gold and silver are both headed down the next 6 months to a year. You tinfoil hats are already 33+% less wealthy than those who followed me a couple months ago, and you will end up 67+% less wealthy before the end of 2017. (100% less wealthy would mean you have 0, so you can see how fast your wealth is evaporating)

Those who ignored me when I explained the exact reason (turnout) Trump would win (in a Steemit blog post)...

---

They shall cast their silver in the streets, and their gold shall be removed: their silver and their gold shall not be able to deliver them in the day of the wrath of the LORD: they shall not satisfy their souls, neither fill their bowels: because it is the stumblingblock of their iniquity.

But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

It is going to be funny watching the tinfoil hats scream when the spot price is so high in the future, but it classifies them as a money launderer for them to sell and/or the taxes are 90+% (after penalties and fines for not reporting, etc)..

I suppose the tinfoil hats are planning a future life as criminals constantly under threat of being hunted by the law and imprisoned. You are being isolated as an extremist cult by society-at-large.

Gold above small quantities as jewelry per individual (married females can have more than men) is now illegal in India.

The society is killing precious metals as a store-of-value. It is over. We are moving on to digital currency...

It really depends on your definition of "a collapse scenario" are we talking fiat currency collapse of a single country, a global collapse of fiat currencies, a single country/global collapse of government systems due to wide scale emergency like you see in horror movies, etc?

First of all, Bitcoin/digital currencies are still very much in their infancy. Right now, its all a proof of concept. If you want to claim that digital currencies are stable enough to overtake the traditional fiat system, or replace them in case of some major global issue, I would disagree with that, and I'm speaking as someone who is a huge fan of cryptocurrencies.

If you think in a scenario major enough to interrupt global economies/governments, that people will continue to keep network infrastructure maintained and the blockchain moving along, I'd beg to differ.

Digital currencies heavily rely on major communication services and the power grid which would be disrupted in a global catastrophe.

Things that are not necessary if you are trying to survive. In addition, if you take development and stagnate it because the Bitcoin dev teams are busy trying to keep the wolves out of their chicken coops, best case scenario, Bitcoin would be put on a backburner until things restore themselves.

Bitcoin is relatively difficult to get into even today. You need a couple hundred dollar smartphone or laptop at the very least, electricity, internet connection, and relatively elevated technical knowledge.

Silver is very heavily involved in medicine, antibiotics, etc, so I think it would fare pretty well as well.

If we are talking about a collapse situation where trust is lost in government currencies, and they collapse but there is no major chaos, I think Bitcoin and metals will do pretty well.

Otherwise, I'd invest in Solar cells, copper/silver/gold, steel, gun powder, medicines, and food/water.

As a side note, government confiscation of metals is something that shady coin dealers try to threaten metal newbies with to get them to buy higher premium lower metal content collectible stuff that they make higher margins on. Its not going to happen, enforcement would be wayyyyy too difficult, and it would be incredibly dangerous to try and enforce. Even when gold was "confiscated" in the 1933 it was to essentially invalidate gold certificates. It didn't really stop too many people from holding gold, otherwise you wouldn't see any pre 1933 gold coins in circulation.

Taxes will rise on everything tangible (including precious metals) that is why you hide your assets in crypto-currency where they can only tax the fiat on/off ramps (exchanges).

That is why precious metals are inferior because you can't spend them directly (and this will unit-of-exchange feature never come back for metals! Not even in a mad-max collapse scenario) and thus they are taxed/confiscated at the exchanges/dealers or when you travel with them; whereas, for example with the new social network I will create on a crypto-currency, your crypto-currency will be very liquid.

Precious metals are so stupid now. You can't even move without having them confiscated. Keep them in a vault business and the government knows where to go confiscate them.

Any one buying precious metals right now and not Bitcoin @$700 is an idiot.

Gold will never go out of fashion, and will be regarded as valuable always.

Incorrect. See my prior post for why. Again idiots won't agree, and that is because they are idiots.

Gold has been considered valuable for thousands of years.

Many different civilization all came to the same conclusion, that gold is special, and they did so isolated from each other in space and time.

Sorry, but your "opinion" can't really match history.

Gold has been considered valuable for thousands of years.

Many different civilization all came to the same conclusion, that gold is special, and they did so isolated from each other in space and time.

Sorry, but your "opinion" can't really match history.

Gold was considered a valuable commodity in the old days. I think that this is due to the fact that it is practically not oxidized. Now the achievements of chemistry are such that it is not the main advantage. Then what is the value of gold?

The value of gold is that someone will give you around $1180 for an ounce.

---

It is interesting that the charges leveled against Au apply even better against Bitcoin.  Bitcoin was a first-cut at a crypto-currency, and through various lessons learned much better implementations in it's class and a lot less baggage can and probably do exist.

The value of Bitcoin is that someone will give you around $904 for one.

Bitcoin can't even compete with the dollar. He will compete with gold? As for the growth of bitcoin prices I want to remind you that recently the price of gold was down $ 33 per ounce. I think that is speculation.

Keep in mind that the collapse of a financial system has historically unfolded to different degrees. If we are talking about a Dark Age, then you are into the Mad Max situation. Then the only thing that has value is food – not even gold. That was the fall of Rome. People effectively sold themselves as serfs to work the land, retain 20% of the crop in return for protection behind the castle walls. Medieval coinage really appears only in silver and are rarely found more than 20 to 30 miles from where the coins were struck. This illustrated the isolation  of city states. Money was not really necessary for there was really no major trade interacting within Europe – hence the Dark Age.
In order for tangible assets like stocks, gold, art, antiquities, etc. to survive, the fundamental infrastructure must survive. That means there must be ample food for gold to have any value whatsoever. So you must stop short of the Mad Max event for anything tangible to have a safe haven value.

Therefore, if we are only talking about a reset of the world financial system, then tangible assets retain value that becomes translated into the new currency. Hence, equities will survive, government debt and currency will not. Only going all the way to a Mad Max event would everything lose value except food. Not even gold survives for trade comes to an end.

The civil unrest we have beginning today post-Trump is intended to overthrow Trump and Obama has remained in Washington, which NO PRESIDENT has ever done. We have Soros licking his lips on the prospect to altering the USA with his vision of Marxism. We have the same trend emerging in France, Britain, and Netherlands and of course Italy, Spain and Greece.
So we have some actors intent upon creating change that would subjugate all of us because they think Marx was correct after all. Their desire is to live vicariously off of other people’s money and they do not accept that anyone should have things they do not. We have students protesting because they think everything should just be free. Hence, this is a battle shaping up for the future; the final conflict over Marxism, which began with the fall of Communism in 1989. This final battle began 26 years from 1989.95.

My response is that open source is destroying the need for the nation-state. Open source is a paradigm shift which creates an Inverse Commons (http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/magic-cauldron/ar01s05.html) which does not suffer the Tragedy of the Commons prisoner's dilemma...

...

So into Stage #5 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=495527.msg17855911#msg17855911) we go, and cull all this useless dead weight left over from the Industrial Age.

Incorrect. See my prior post for why. Again idiots won't agree, and that is because they are idiots.

You're assuming that we will stay in a digital world.
Now it's not that I want to shatter your dreams, but there is no proof that it will be the case.
Digital area relies heavily on rare metals and ressources. What will happen when we finish the reserves we have? Well some say that "technology should find a way" yeah maybe.
Maybe.

And gold IS useful in an economy simply because it's a natural inflator. Gold amount raises by 1% every year on average, that's a good way to keep inflation under natural control.

Gold is not able to deal with inflation. On the contrary the higher the demand for gold the more inflation. The gold is used in industry but in small quantities. I think it is more an object of speculation than a method of fighting inflation.

What?
No you didn't understand correctly!
Gold power is that it has a natural inflation of 1% which means the total stock of gold increases by 1% per year!
It means that any currency based on gold will have a controled inflation, you understand?

Surely if you're alone saying something and everyone is saying the contrary with proofs it must be because they're the idiots while you're right ^^

This rally since 2009 has been the most BEARISH rally ever in history. Think of this like the mirror image of gold. Gold has declined for 5 years and you have people screaming here we go with ever $20 rally. In the stock market, it has been exactly the opposite. Every time the market decline, they say here we go it will crash by 70-90%.

This is what I mean that the MAJORITY must always be wrong for they are the fuel that moves markets. I have been stating persistently that the Dow cannot “C R A S H” when the majority are bearish and retail participation is at historic lows (see Gallup poll).

Gold is a bubble which may at any moment burst. I'm not buying gold right now and do not advise others. The price will fall.

You'll never figure out why I am nearly always correct in my predictions (and you will even go misinterpret and misrepresent my predictions to convince yourself I wasn't correct):

Wahou, such proof, much wow, lots evidence, woof

Just saying I predicted the iPhone (and Bitcoin) two (and three) years before it happened (note after this email I was evaluating the PDAs such as Nokia 770):

---------------------------- Original Message ----------------------------
Subject: Elaboration of why u will need a wireless handheld computer,      and also an apology
From:    Shelby
Date:    Tue, November 15, 2005 1:45 pm
To:      "TonyT" <aturrisi@cox.net>
Cc:      "Mom" <jennie@nas.com>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

...

I've read through the PM's & Collapse thread (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1665943.0)...

But iamnotback makes some great points, namely:

during ww2 gold was used because it already the backbone of the system, unlike now.

as long as infrastructure survives (indicating a financial system collapse) the internet & the speed at which solutions can be engineered outside of governmental avenues. and crypto is blooming, could soon be as ubiquitous as mobile phones. if crypto overcomes onramping obstacles it could serve as the path of least resistance ie stored & sent via mobile phones.

that a total financial system collapse could shove us into a dark age of food shortages (4 meal theory) and need for weapons. in isolated or war torn areas, are PM's more viable than food or ammo.

The only source of Marxism is the Jews, it does not originate from anywhere else.

Gold has been considered valuable for thousands of years.

Many different civilization all came to the same conclusion, that gold is special, and they did so isolated from each other in space and time.

Sorry, but your "opinion" can't really match history.

...no electricity and [no Internet]...

Your idea makes a lot of sense iamnotback.

I guess that Armstrong's view is colored by his dealings with government. While the systems function, they are very hard to defeat.

But yes watch the engineers generate solutions. Even at the most basic level this already occurs - we see 3rd world nations improvise and innovate when government has failed them, an example being the plastic bottle + bleach + water, set in the roof to generate light.

For the peak energy Malthusians:

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/02/170209133509.htm

r0ach you do not even understand MA's thesis which derives from his extensive study of history.

Hyperinflation NEVER occurs in a country which is still able to sell its debt. It happens only in countries which are undergoing revolutions or dictatorships and where the public have lost confidence in the government. The USA has the strongest military and will not hyperinflate away the debt. At some point, they will do a monetary reset and rape you goldbugs. Watch and learn from the master.

I am not going to reply to the nonsense any more. Heading back to my profession as a computer programmer.

It has always been my working thesis that none (let's say very few) of us can know the future.  It is too complex...

For one thing, there is A REASON the majority of large human settlements through history have been bordering the ocean.  If the crops go bad or if there's some type of scarcity issue, people just ratchet up the fishing.  There will be no global "TEOTWAWKI".

I'm not believing any more in the "unregulated" part.  Yes, it will keep the appearances of "unregulated and distributed" but in fact it will be entirely institutionalized behind the doors.  Bitcoin will be (if it isn't already) an institution's crypto.  Of course it will not go away,  but it will not be what you think it is.  It will be like gold.  Mainly manipulated, stored, owned, regulated by central banks.  If it isn't already.  The Chinese gov already has put their hands on the big Chinese exchanges.  I'm sure the big miners are next.  Of course, officially, the gov doesn't own them.  But they tell them what to do.

Such a total order is impossible because it would require snuffing out every decentralized instance of human ingenuity hiding under every blade of grass on the planet:

(for the same reason NWO can't physically confiscate all the precious metals but NWO can sure as hell make them illiquid as I explained upthread^[1] because of their requirement to be physically traded with centralized market makers who have large economies-of-scale; whereas, the NWO can't make crypto-currency illiquid because just like prohibition of alcohol in the prior century and decentralized file sharing, the more they try to stop it, the more decentralized users of it will increase)

...

But behind the scenes, these deep state agents will in fact *put their hands on the bitcoin market* by owning a lot of it, but mainly, by telling the main (centralized) actors how to behave so that it suits them.

I don't think we will reach stage #6.  The Singularity will hit us first.  We are just the breading ground for the machines to take over.  They will take over the totalitarian mechanisms set in place in stage #5.

I already did. My perspective is future oriented. Gold's dismal future (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1665943.0) is baked in regardless of whether a replacement is developed.


Please distinguish between the corrupt seniorage system of fiat and that of correctly distributed crypto-currency (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1804740.msg18037257#msg18037257).

Corrupt top-down controlled systems rot and decay. Decentralized paradigms are antifragile. Gold is no longer decentralized because it has lost its unit-of-account and unit-of-exchange usage, thus the market makers (for liquidity) are top-down controlled.

The only purpose of metals as currency is to remove counter party risk while also satisfying a few other traits of money such as divisibility, durability, portability, fungibility, etc.  Bitcoin doesn't actually remove counter party risk at all.  It's also not fungible and any crypto that's not fungible is a permissioned ledger by default.  Nor is it a valid store of generational wealth like gold and silver because the entire thing can just blow up at random.  

Therefore, the only thing bitcoin really does better is portability and a bit better granularity (with the added inconvenience of giant technical burden).  In current state you have to be flat out lying to say bitcoin beats gold and silver as money.  It's clearly inferior and there is no evidence that relationship will change anytime soon (beyond wild claims by Anonymintcoin).  Bitcoin is only a currency and gold and silver are money; there's a big difference.

Roach read http://unenumerated.blogspot.ca/2016/02/two-malthusian-scares.html?m=1#links

We are in the offloading gold stage by elite.. oil producers are buying by converting from oil.. malthusian event is over and commodities are set to collapse lagging behind gold. Now where oh where the heck is smart money going to start putting their money over the next decade in anticipation of industrial usage actually catching up and producing the next malthusian event? Hint its sure as hell not back into gold.. as that would not.be very smart

Hell, how can you write that ?  Arbitrary choice of units, comparing 1/16 000 000 of market cap

It is amazing that you contradict your own prediction, which was brilliant, now that it is being realized: the scalocalypse.

Android has no scaling problem.  I would rather say that in as much as this comparison is valid, you are looking at the evolution of alt coins, which are what android is like: many different flavours of the same idea.

Roach read http://unenumerated.blogspot.ca/2016/02/two-malthusian-scares.html?m=1#links

We are in the offloading gold stage by elite.. oil producers are buying by converting from oil.. malthusian event is over and commodities are set to collapse lagging behind gold. Now where oh where the heck is smart money going to start putting their money over the next decade in anticipation of industrial usage actually catching up and producing the next malthusian event? Hint its sure as hell not back into gold.. as that would not.be very smart

If it's a really complete mess (like, fallout everywhere)I doubt metals, heck even fiat, would still have value. You'd probably have a better chance of trading liquor for food. Plenty of depressed people out there who'd like some drink (not to mention they're antiseptic and with a wick, an instant Molotov).

It seem that that many agree that precious metals only have value during peace time. If you can flee to a country that was unaffected by the disaster, you'd probably be able to use you bitcoin more than your metals. Good luck lugging around you bullion as you flee an advancing army or zombie horde.

That being said, metals might have some use depending on how fast reconstruction is and how extensive the damage was. Metals are durable, no doubt about that. You wouldn't have to worry about your phone dying out or getting wrecked by EMP. There's probably a window of time that they can be used for currency.

If I have the money, I'd definitely still buy some gold or silver just for the heck of it. Not everything have to be money after all (I'm looking at you modern art!). Well, I actually have a pragmatic reason for wanting to get some silver. Colloidal silver. Sure there are risks but I'd definitely take that over dying of infection should antibiotics become unavailable.

You are right. In a doomsday scenario money lose value. There will always be people, who think of the future and who will trade goods for precious metals and jewelry, but most people will just use rare goods. Especially the ones that make you forget about the shit you are in, like drugs, cigarettes, alcohol. Weapons and medical supplies will also be on the top of the most expensive goods.
Think about it, if your child gets sick you will give away all your precious metals for a supply of antibiotics.

OMG, silver is money again!  ::)

I dont see a bitcoin symbol up there.

In a total collapse I agree gold/silver will be worth a lot less (but still more than fiat)

People will excess supplies will trade for gold/silver.

Gold and silver will re establish themselves during the rebuild phase where you can exchange them in to the replacement currency and you wont have lost everything you once had.

In a collapse scenario it is not digital currency nor money that will have a use or valuable. The thing that will be of value will be weapons, survival kit and food. The best thing to do if you have a money is to set up a fortress that can survive any condition and inside of it is a large garden and forest with waterfalls and etc. If you have that then you dont have to worry when a collapse scenario will happen.

Weapons and ammo is actually what will be the most important. When you have weapons you can protect yourself and whatever you have. You can hunt for meat and barter with ammo.
You can even wait for some idiot to try to rob you, thinking you're unarmed, shoot him and take his supplies.  ;)
Having a lot of precious metals will only make you a target.

Weapons and ammo is actually what will be the most important. When you have weapons you can protect yourself and whatever you have. You can hunt for meat and barter with ammo.
You can even wait for some idiot to try to rob you, thinking you're unarmed, shoot him and take his supplies.  ;)
Having a lot of precious metals will only make you a target.

First you need to group up     no good on your own in a MAD MAX style planet..

I would stock up on candles throw away lighters powder milk ..
Curry powders eat anything with bit of curry sprinkled on..

And you will trade 1 lighter 1 candle and a packet of curry for an ounce of gold ;).WELL FREEZE THEN :D

I be rich ..ARR WATCH CANDLE SALES WILL GO UP SOON :D :D..AND CURRY POWDER .

Shiny no good in war    only food and warmth and we are from the uk loads of water and food from the land.

If you live in desert lands you are FUCKED ..

During any war changing values, but the candle you during any war buy for gold, and money can be useless. That is why people hold gold. A universal currency is not.

Maybe get some bees for starters and you can keep making your own candles from wax till the end of days. ;D ;D
But really in the era of LED lights and cheap solar panels you could buy a bunch of those cheap little garden lamps and wire them up in series on your walls. Who would want to burn smelly candles whole night? Candles made of wax on the other hand smell nice. ;)

Bitcoin is now at parity with gold.

The candle burns with a live fire. Not compare with him no light from the lanterns. Besides live fire is not only light but also heat, cooking ability, etc.

Also what you must take into consideration is if it's every country at war ..
Like nuked to bits   the gold has no use what so ever..

If countries are left and with no war then gold is useful ..
BUT with the nukes these days no country will be left ..IT'S MAD MAX TIME THEN..

So if your rich then you put your money into all sorts of things BUT DON'T FORGET THE CANDLES  ;)

OR you will be visiting the popcorn candle and lighter shop..1 OUNCE OF GOLD will come my way..

So it all depends on the type of war if gold is worth something..
So if you not got much money BUY CANDLES NOT GOLD..

I take it your candle shop wont be accepting BTC due to the EMPs and total collapse of the electrical grid, internet and miner network BTC requires to operate.

Ill just pay some mercenaries 1/2 oz gold to put a bullet in you and take all your candles  :D :D :D

In the event of a global collapse scenario, the only thing that will be useful is food and water, Oil will be very useful as well. A system of barter trade will come up again. Precious Metals such as gold or silver will not be useful at all.

To my knowledge (and I could be wrong), Putin is a gold guy.  Russia has bought up a lot of gold over the past few years, and their central banker (Elvira Nabiullina) has apparently done a great job.

Russia is now No. 7 in the world re Official Gold Reserves (1615 tonnes):

Tinfoil hats don't understand why gold has been a reserve currency of good money and therefor they do not understand why gold is not optimal:

https://i.imgur.com/ocOHg9A.png (https://www.jstor.org/stable/1061553?seq=4#page_scan_tab_contents)

https://i.imgur.com/6ghy1Vw.png (https://www.jstor.org/stable/1061553?seq=5#page_scan_tab_contents)

And thus you don't understand why my blockchain design is the only one which will win as the ideal good money (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1837136.msg18393725#msg18393725).

@r0ach has been clueless. If he is wise, he will read the linked thread (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1837136.msg18393725#msg18393725) and learn what is really going on.

Tinfoil hats don't understand why gold has been a reserve currency of good money ..

BECAUSE IT'S SHINY  ;).. END OF..  We likes shiny things

Now do you want to buy some CANDLES  ;D

I only want the gold to make myself a crown  or i would rather keep me candles ..

I will be king of the candle sellers ;D

My understanding of Nash's mathematical theory of ideal money is that if we have unit-of-account and store-of-value for reserves (but not necessarily a medium-of-exchange!) which has a non-manipulable and predictable rate of change of its supply, then that money can form the basis of sound financial systems which correctly value the activities in the economy and thus don't create distortions which lead to for example the failure of private fractional reserve banking, depressions, and misallocation of economic resources and capital.

So this is why the primary value of Bitcoin is the inability to change its protocol. If Bitcoin's protocol can be changed by anyone, then it is no longer a reliable metric in Nash's mathematical scheme.

So Satoshi tried to design a monetary system which would meet the requirements of Nash's ideal money scheme. Because in theory this can bring great benefits to society, such as destroying all the fiat systems, corrupt governments and destroying the inherently correct concept of socialism and democracy. These justifications have been explained in more detail upthread (and in extensive detail in my archives on BCT), so I won't repeat that information.

But as I already explained upthread, the immutability of PoW only exists for the token (blockchain) which has the greatest value, because the finance tail doesn't wag the dog. I explained upthread that whales on a higher valued blockchain can potentially manipulate a lowered valued altcoin as is the case ongoing now with Litecoin wherein they are able to change the protocol.

I also explained upthread how (using MPEx as an example) finance always accumulates to the one with the most reserves, i.e. finance is inherently a winner-take-all construct. It is a gravitational system that sucks everything into itself until it is the entire economy and then it self-destructs. Thus Nash's ideal money can't exist in reality with finance.

Nash wanted an asymptotic solution wherein the number of stable currencies could be unbounded and thus no one could ever gain sufficient omniscient information in order to winner-take-all the financial system. Unfortunately Bitcoin as the center of the financial universe as the only stable currency is of course an abomination and not at all what Nash would have wanted. (Note altcoins are not stable currencies because they are not immutable.) Because of course I explained already upthread how over time there will end up with one whale who has monopolized the Bitcoin economy and thus can change the protocol at-will. This is why I say Bitcoin is the NWO system and was probably created by a think tank funded by an elite globalist such as Rothschild.

Nash required two incongruent things. He wanted a metric to be stable so the (rest of the) financial system could be measured against it, yet he also needed that metric to be absolute (as in its veracity/protocol not being relative to anything which could be controlled or gamed). There are no absolutes in our universe. We live in a relativistic universe which is only constructed from relative perspectives. None of us can even communicate our present to everyone and we can't even communicate our histories incontrovertibly because there is no way to prove an event happened other than by the corroboration of the memories of others who witnessed it (which is not a total ordering thus isn't incontrovertible). For example (but this is by no means the main point of what I am trying to explain here), this weakness in fungible money is why money requires a total ordering consensus so as to order the transactions globally to insure a double-spend wasn't attempted some where else in the universe.

I wrote as @anonymous:


So I believe what Nash worked out in his mind mathematically was that in some hypothetical asymptotic case wherein there are an unbounded number of stable, non-manipulable currencies, then it would not be possible for any player in the system to always win just because he/she held the most reserves, because that player would lack information about whether he/she held the most powerful basket of reserves, so it would thus not be a power vacuum winner-take-all outcome in the theoretical asymptotic case. So Nash was correct that in the asymptotic case, his ideal money is stable, but the problem is that such an asymptotic case isn't known to exist nor does anyone know how to make it come into existence. Even Satoshi's design requires Bitcoin to be the stable currency with the highest value otherwise as I had explained, its immutability is not assured by the game theory.

Precisely four years ago, I wrote Bitcoin : The Digital Kill Switch (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=160612.0), and I see now that I was entirely correct. Bitcoin is an abomination of Nash's ideal money scheme. Its end game is one globalist who controls everything. One omnipotent whale who stomps on all life. The NWO-666 outcome. Sorry I can't stand by idle and let that happen! Four years ago, I set out to try to figure out how to fix this problem. I've been working incessantly ever since on this in spite of my disseminated Tuberculosis illness (which I am now undergoing treatment to cure hopefully).

But along my journey of thinking about money every since I got interested in gold in 2006 because by late 2005 I could already see in my mind that a global crisis of debt and socialism was ahead in the real world, I ended up making a discovery and writing it down some time in the period between 2011 and 2013. That essay was Rise of Knowledge, Demise of Finance (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=355212.0).

The generative essence of that discovery was that knowledge can't be financed, because unlike manual labor, knowledge production is not fungible. Read the essay I wrote for more explanation.

Also Eric S. Raymond had discovered Linus' Law "given enough eyeballs, all bugs are shallow" when he wrote the seminal The Cathedral and the Bazaar which launched the open source revolution and Eric had invented the term "open source" preferring it over Richard Stallman's "free software". Eric followed that up with the explanation of open source economics models in the Magic Cauldron wherein he explained the opposite of a Tragedy-of-the-Commons is an Inverse Commons (http://www.catb.org/esr/writings/magic-cauldron/magic-cauldron-5.html) which is what open source is.

So what I had figured out that finance would die because the entire point of money is an information system which routes perception of value to those who help the society produce the most. Fungible money worked during the tangible ages (agriculture and industrial) because society needed to aggregate large amounts of capital (because economies-of-scale were paramount in agriculture and industry) and labor was fungible (i.e. replaceable) and thus finance was useful for maximizing production. Companies aggregate fungible resources and economies-of-scale to gain a transactional cost advantage (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_the_firm#Transaction_cost_theory) to solve the coordination problem of the Tragedy-of-the-Commons of uncoordinated resources per the Theory of the Firm (and such transactional cost advantages decline in the knowledge age due to technological changes which enable more diverse production with lower economies-of-scale and Inverse Commons coordination). Although this system carried with it huge social problems because laborers had no pricing power unless they could restrict membership (e.g. unions) or otherwise use the government to try to redistribute wealth (or do birth control eugenics to lower their competition with each other). In other words, the broken concepts such as democracy and socialism were ramifications of the fact that labor was too fungible (replaceable) and finance was cardinal. That is why so many hate capitalism, but they don't understand that the fledgling knowledge age (which is already underway!) will change everything to a meritocracy and destroy finance and money.

So we tie all this together and note that we increasingly are exchanging our knowledge and doing knowledge creation in open source Inverse Commons, especially those who produce the most in the new economy of the knowledge age. Eric Raymond had eloquently pointed out that the Inverse Commons of open source is the only known positive scaling law of engineering. And it applies to almost any field of knowledge creation that applies the open source principle (such as what we doing right now here by discussing a new concept and peer reviewing it here).

So I figured out that if I could tie the knowledge production within Inverse Commons to exchange of a fungible monetary unit, I could bridge the gap between where we are now and where we are headed. And that each time some fungible money would be exchanged in this system I designed, then the value of the fungible money would not be in exchange for the knowledge but rather in exchange for the service provided to host the knowledge. Then the fungible portion of exchange would only be a small fraction of the non-fungible value created by the activity. This was a very clever and insightful and essential discovery that I made!

So I had figured out a way to make new blockchain currency which would scale out larger than Bitcoin and thus defeat it while also itself not being vulnerable to manipulation because the fungible finance portion of the economy would orders-of-magnitude inferior in relative value to the knowledge portion. In other words, no one could ever monopolize it.

Then I combined that with a clever consensus algorithm which doesn't require PoW. And voila I named the unpublished design the Bitcoin Killer.

In other words, it achieves Nash's asymptotic ideal money by turning a person's brain into their non-fungible money (the unbounded number of brains is the asymptotic domain) and leverages that huge value creation in order to make the associated fungible token more demanded than Bitcoin. The economy shifts from a predominately monetary one into a predominately reputation and gift culture, wherein we recognize value by accomplishments and not by monetary digits.

Those parasite high finance and Wallstreet thugs have to find a new vocation and actually work together in society or become irrelevant.

I rather like my discovery. I think you will too if I am correct.

@r0ach was already referred to the relevant work of Nash and he is quite proficient at ignoring the reality:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1837136.msg18394149#msg18394149
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1837136.msg18422543#msg18422543

Because @r0ach is an obstinate fool who wears a tinfoil hat blindfold that prevents him from comprehending (and perhaps even reading) what Nash wrote, especially what Nash wrote about what makes gold valuable and why it is not as ideal as Bitcoin.

I agree with $500,000 prediction being too high, even $100,000 is still to high. Gold is a 5000 year asset, no way Bitcoin will surpass it in 13 years from now, just not possible! Sorry, but it's nonsense.

Lol. Bitcoin and gold are roughly the same price. Gold is going to $5k max, Bitcoin to $500k.

Buying gold is an impoverishment plan.

Crypto-currency and blockchains will subsume everything.

Tinfoil hats and @dinofelis will be left behind.

Now we know why the Bible says we will throw our gold and silver into the street. Precious metals will become relatively worthless. Remember iron used to be a precious metal (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=355212.0) (its documented in Rise of Knowledge, Decline of Finance essay). Commodities are on inexorable trend of lower value (because we can increase their supply at lower costs with new technologies for mining). And gold can't compete with Bitcoin's better attributes (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1864869.0).