Bitcoin Forum

https://bitcoin.co.th/trading-suspended-due-to-bank-of-thailand-advisement/

And here guys and gals is the whole difference between the First World and Third World, between a free society and controlled society:

"At the conclusion of the meeting senior members of the Foreign Exchange Administration and Policy Department advised that due to lack of existing applicable laws, capital controls and the fact that Bitcoin straddles multiple financial facets the following Bitcoin activities are illegal in Thailand..."

In a free country you do what you like as long as it is not illegal. In a controlled un-free country you can only do what is legally allowed.

As a side note, too bad for Thailand, missing the Bitcoin and cryptocurrency train. They will regret it.

Holy cow!
And violators will be beheaded ?

The lucky ones. The others get stomped on by elephants.
 

Is this for real? This is huge (in the negative sense) news if true.
Is the source credible?

Negative sense for Thailand, not bitcoin...

Shit do you know if you can still make a transfer to your tba off an exchange?

but as I understand, it's not a law, but just conclusion of a bunch of idiots at the meeting.

When a senior official at a central bank tells you point-blank, "buying or selling bitcoins is illegal", unless you have a seriously large legal fund and willing to fight all the way to the constitutional courts if necessary, you take it seriously.

I'll have to remember to only spend Litecoin on my next trip to Thailand.

Alt-coins were discussed at the meeting, same rules apply.

this is like saying exchanging anything not currency for goods and services is illegal...scary

On the plus side you can still mine...and send the bitcoins as gifts (within Thailand) :D

Ok, may be I'm not aware about legal procedures in Thailand.
it seems like sharia court, where judge makes decision according not to law but by their own opinion.

So we can make anyone in Thailand do illegal things by sending them an private key/brainwallet with Bitcoins?
Just knowing it makes you the (or one of the) owners of the Bitcoins.

E.g. Brainwallet-pw with some miliBitcoins: pinkelephant

Poor Goat.

Are you kidding?

The only difference between controlled un-free country and controlled free country is that in the controlled free country you're not allowed without the government officially telling you're not allowed.

Obviously for there to be any penalty it would have to go through the courts.  ie Civil and/or Criminal charges would have to be brought and trials, appeals etc...

Any Guinea pig volunteers?

Which, I take it, would also mean only mining in pools within Thailand, otherwise the bitcoin you receive would be from outside Thailand and therefore illegal importation.

 i like how they declare it outright illegal versus saying the money laundering via bitcoin is illegal

If I take my laptop to Thailand this summer, do I have to remove my private keys before crossing the border?

Internet Porns illegal in Thailand, Whoreing's illegal in Thailand, smoking while driving, Conterfeit goods are illegal. The police aren't very on top here I don't think its anything to worry about. I was caught over the limit with no tax or insurance on my motorbike recently and got a 200 baht (6usd) fine!!

Just stash them up ya arse mate

lol

This is how gentlemen do it. Not like pussies that tell you 100 insignificant reasons wasting your time before you figure out the true one.

^lol
====

Maybe an American Goat will do... No need to bring pigs from Guinea.

I guess they are just upset that the B symbol is now more known for BTC than for THB : P

I'm not a lawyer, but here is a quote from my lawyer in Thailand:

So, unless there's a law explicitly permitting me to, say, trying to keep an eye open while I'm blowing my nose, I'm committing a crime.
Yeah, sure, makes sense.

I mean, I'm not saying you're lying, I'm just saying that such a system is so incredibly fucked up and senseless, that you should just ignore it altogether.

Right? Like how did it all start out? surely there was a day they had no laws and had to decide them

Funny how such a beautiful country can have such draconian laws like that

Guys.. If OP did not invest a significant amount of money in his business I would say he is just trolling. The people in that meeting do not make laws. Even if they thought what OP was doing was illegal that does not make it a fact. I'm going to assume here the guys were talking about running an exchange and not BTC itself.

OP is making Thailand look bad and anyone who knows anything will know OP is just so far off it is not even funny.  

OP get a real lawyer and read some law. Almost everything has been translated into English. Really man you just lost all credibility and can never gain it back.

edit: I also reported this for being in the wrong section. Your exchange is not the media and any person in the press would check into your story a bit and see if what you claim is true.

I hope this gets moved to speculation or maybe off topic.

Are you even allowed to type words on an Internet? Please quote the law allowing you to do so.http://chromex.netne.net/32/smug.gif

The only freedom is freedom from illusion. Or rather, the people of thailand dont stand much chance against laws like these, as long as they remain uninformed or misinformed. In the west, we are more informed, so the government cant get away with random things like this. So thats the difference between uninformed people, and more or less well-informed people, its what their government gets away with.

I'm sorry, but in America you can get arrested and thrown in jail for doing things that are not illegal.  Police officers will throw things at you and see what sticks in court.  If they have never seen someone do the same before they will invent some new law or modify one on the fly.  If you have a shitty judge, attorney, or jury, you will be screwed.  America is not as free as the rest of the world would like to think it is.  I'm afraid to do MANY things that would seem cool or fun because of our legal system.

Source:  I've been through the legal system once.  Although it was totally my fault.

And this is why my husband and I decided not to buy when BTC was only $1.  We were afraid of being thrown in jail because we were tied to something that could be seen as tied to money laundering etc.  We waited until we noticed there was some regulation.  That perhaps cost us thousands of dollars in that we could not buy as much BTC.  Oh well.  We are not in jail though. ;)

The bankers in Thailand are basically the very same idiots who tanked the entire Asian economy in 1997 by being too stupid to understand how currency works.  While this is disappointing, it really shouldn't be surprising.

I very much doubt that those bankers even know what BTC is. I would guess its not a good idea to start an exchange in Thailand without the right connections as you would be setting yourself up as an obvious target with money, but as far as buying or selling BTC they are incapable of policing it even if they wanted to which Im sure they dont.

This thread stinks. There are no cases of anyone being prosecuted for legitimate bitcoin transactions in Thailand. The whole discussion is based on hearsay and irrelevant statements and interpretations from irrelevant people. Don't waste your time here.

Op regarding Goats post showing you've started a thread inciting people to boycott thai goods, I feel absolutely ashamed we live in the same country and completely disgusted.... who in their fucking right mind uses Redit?

i don't think it is the law at all. if anything i think it is the banks of thailand agreeing to make any wire transfers to known bitcoin exchanges, be classed as high risk. it would be more at aiming to stop businesses from getting money transmitter licences within thailand to set up exchanges.

there is nothing stopping people going to an ATM withdrawing their baht and meeting up at a local bar/coffee shop to do a paper fiat for bitcoin exchange.

just be careful trying to do wire transfers from a thai bank into places like mtgox/bitstamp

 ::) ::) ::)

The funny thing is: Bitcoins are not from inside or from outside of Thailand or any other country! They are on the blockchain, thus exist in etheral cyberspace that has no nationality. Due to its decentralized nature, there are not even servers you could tie it down to.

I haven't found a reliable source for this yet. Does anyone have one? And please don't link to reddit or another thread on here. If the reddit or bitcointalk thread has a source, I'd like that.

Well, sure. I would agree with that. But if a country decided it wanted to make Bitcoin use illegal, they probably wouldn't trouble their ugly heads about such distinctions.

To be fair, when I googled "Bitcoin illegal in Thailand" a lot of sites came up saying that it was. But they were all small time and none looked reliable. I figure that if bitcoins were made illegal major news sites would be on top of it.

Theoretically, I could see the similarity between the commonly-used BTC and ฿ being the source of antifraud kinds of laws. On the other hand, I'd say someone who thought they were receiving ฿1000 and ended up with BTC1000 should keep their head down and enjoy their good fortune.

What is ฿, as opposed to BTC?

This is complete FUD - with only one, unofficial source nobody should treat this as anything but lies.

Will the central bank of Thailand answer email questions sent in English? If not, can someone who know's Thai send them an email and ask them to confirm, clarify or most likely denounce this rumor.

The BOT surely has no interest in misinformed media outlets spreading the drunk ramblings of some crazed lunatic. Maybe it would be possible to get a quick statement from some kind of press contact or something. The FUD being spread right now looks really bad for both BOT and Thailand.

It's midnight in Thailand now so you'll get nothing until tomorrow at the very earliest.

About US$0.032 as opposed to US$100.18.

I am curious, in such a system, on what basis would a penalty be determined? Suppose, they proved that you received bitcoins from abroad. What penalty do you get? How do they determine it, if there is no law saying: "for receiving bitcoins from outside Thailand the penalty is..."?

Is this true? Who has the time to make all of the laws?

If it is true, then wouldn't selling any new product be illegal, since there are no laws regulating that new product?

This is how the Bitcoin community and the media work. Remember Cyprus? Neither do I.

Well, in countries like this, toughness of draconian laws is often compensated by inability of government to enforce them. So, in practice, they may have even more freedom than people from "everything is legal unless it is prohibited" type countries :)

(From Wired)

It almost sounds like there was a meeting and the Thai-version of the SEC deemed it "illegal" until they could update the laws.  It's almost a "holy shit! it does what???" reaction.  It may be beneficial for Thailand and BTC for the powers-that-be to step back and get some regulations.  The phrase "until Thai laws are updated" is a good sign, IMO.

What's the official policy on human trafficking and sexual exploitation of children for profit in Thailand?

I think it's just a reaction to ฿, as opposed to BTC?

In hindsight the OP should have emphasizes the decentralised combined processing power of the P2P network and the Cryptographic side of Bitcoin, and down plaid it as a medium of exchange.

Those bankers could have fallen asleep, next time get Mike Hearn (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mD4L7xDNCmA&feature=youtu.be&t=1m55s) to explain how Bitcoin technically works, if you want to be ignored by the banking community.

Keep in mind that this comes from a country where there are laws against insulting the King: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%A8se-majest%C3%A9#Thailand

"Whoever defames, insults or threatens the King, Queen, the Heir-apparent or the Regent, shall be punished with imprisonment of three to fifteen years."

I'm not surprised that in a country like Thailand, a body like the central bank wouldn't be ready to endorse and legitimize virtual currencies. They're just taking the safe path and deferring to other officials to make the decision and write some laws that govern these types of transactions. When faced with a precedent setting scenario that might threaten traditional banking and control, pass the buck.

odd that wired has changed "Bitcoin activities are illegal in Thailand" to "Bitcoin activities should be illegal in Thailand"

Yes, I didn't mean to imply that I actually agreed with their interpretation.  It still makes it difficult to operate an exchange if you can't get a bank to do transfers for you, though.  In any event, the title of the thread is overblown and perhaps entirely inaccurate.

I don't understand, deported from where?
Did you mean "arrested", implying he already lives there, or what?

Netherlands: making incoherent sounds at the national remembrance in present of the Queen: 6 months jail.

OT: Maybe the Thai's are p'd off that we use the baht symbol ฿ for BTC.  :D

Sometimes the best way to trigger adoption is to forbid usage.
The french kingdom and Parmentier did the same to foster adoption of potatoes. They claimed it was private to the court, used military guards in the day to keep the fields but they  leaked recipes...
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antoine_Parmentier#cite_note-6

Central bankers & pussies, iow, yes they do make a difference to what companies will risk doing regardless or not of any present guidelines/rules or legislation is apparent:

https://i.imgur.com/DKlKZDM.png

I hope this brings the debate in to the light in Thailand & sets some precedents for P2P use of virtual currencies in a good way, there are certainly many Thais who are not so enamored by the present gov.

Bunch of losers.
It doesn't need to be a written law, just imagine Ben Bernanke saying at a dinner that BTC should be illegal. Thousands would loose confidence, and many exchanges would close.

I'm sorry for Thai people, and I guess BTC users will just have to spend their BTC in neighboring Cambodia or Vietnam. Or maybe someone could write to the Thai embassy asking how I could travel there with nothing but BTC in hand?

lets get everyone in reddit.com/r/thailand jailed by tipping them all.

We need a massive bitcoin campaign on every thai embassy.

Bitcoin stickers and posters on and around every thai embassy
Bitcoin phone calls to every Thai embassy

bitcoin letters sent to every embassy

Bitcoin emails

And they all need to say that we have thousands of dollars but will only spend it in Thailand in bitcoin.

Also praising the king!in all your communications! they love the king. (it's good to be the king')

They still have the grave memory about their currency been heavily shorted during Asian financial storm, any financial related uncertianty will scare them ;)

Hopefully, we'll have decentralized, peer-to-peer, crypto for cash / cash for crypto exchanges in the near future to make all of this talk of regulating exchanges moot.  Trying to get the blessing of bankers and politicians will ultimately prove to be a fool's errand.  Even if you were to eventually get their stamp of approval at some point, it would only be temporary.  Bitcoin is simply incompatible with their agenda.  You can rest assured they will go to great lengths in order to prevent a large-scale escape from fiat.  The focus should be on taking the exchanges underground and rendering any current (real or imaginary) or future regulations irrelevant.

Exactly.
And no law means it is legal since Thai law like the British law
it derives from states "that which is not prohibited is allowed"
This is not the only guy trading coins in the country and nobody else
has suspended trading.

Maybe they're upset about Bitcoin trying to steal their ฿ symbol?

That answers my implied questions in hardcore thread wether this had any merit.

Thanks.

I think my bullshit detector is broken. Shame on you, wired.

Easiest way to find out what will happen if someone openly trades some bitcoins. Or better still sent a physical bitcoin as a gift to the King from overseas.

I don't understand why some people are so upset that Thailand central bankers said bitcoin is illegal? Did you really expect something different? I don't. This is just the beginning. More central bankers from other countries will follow.

Apparently, many of you forget that when it comes to money the central bankers are the law. The law is what they say is the law! If it was any different then Ben Bernanke would have already been in jail for printing out 85 billion counterfeit dollars every month.

Neither there is evidence they didn't. What would be the interest of OP without any reason to shut down their bitcoin echange in which they've invested heavily?

What they should have learned from that is that government currency manipulation can lead to disaster.  After all, the reason it was shorted was that it was entirely predictable the price would crash, yet the government insisted on artificially fixing the exchange rate to a price of their choosing in relation to USD.  The rest of Southeast Asia's economies went down like dominos and with them, the Asian economy in general and a good chunk of the entire world's economy.

Now, even if the OP has exaggerated, if he is at least telling the substantive truth about what the bankers are saying, they are creating yet another mess just by expressing unfounded opinions recklessly.  (OP may be guilty of that bad habit himself.)

This thread TL;DR.

I must ask who's paying for this publicity stunt.. lol.. 8)

Well, the fact that OP said this and apparently shut down a business based on it is evidence.  It's just not very good evidence when nobody else seems to be verifying the claim.

he did say he had a recording of the meeting. The best question to ask at this moment is who is the Foreign Exchange Administration and Policy Department  and what do they do?

I heard they don't enforce or make laws

Whatever, Goat. Give it up. I can get you naturalized and renting anonymously in the US on the cheap. ;D You like brunettes?

cant really be verified as  such because its just opinions, it hasnt been tested in court and no attempt has been made to test it

Thailand does work differently then the west, if a person high up the chain suggests you dont do something then its best to take their advice because its likely a veiled threat, they may find another reason to close him down or make his life difficult or even terminated if he goes ahead, on the other hand, if he makes a private offer to them that is substantial enough he may very well get the go ahead, but that may not be worth his while. legalities dont really come into it, you can buy a judge in Thailand if you have the cash

Somehow I followed a press release thread that got moved here?  It wasn't about bitcoin.co.th or whatever.

Itink, someone has mispacked the suspension . Currently you are still allowed to getting some, just mined only. Currently there is no clear message at a moment. The company is under the attack so they slow down while keep discussing if there is something available. I have read the message.

And the Pirate Party International (https://www.facebook.com/ppinternational/posts/696844380341959) fell for this FUD too -.-

People are stupid all-over the world.

Ironically now it will be easier for governments to really ban Bitcoin, since many people think they already did, and no pitchforks happened.

There is no such law.  It is a common saying, generally directed at Communist countries.  The general form of the "truism" is that in "good" countries, like America, everything is permissible unless prohibited, but in "bad" countries, like Communist China, everything is prohibited unless permissible.  

It is basically a stereotype, not a legal principle.

It's possible OP doesn't even have a lawyer and is a troll himself.  I'd like to see his response, though.

I remember someone asking if this was real, and I think the OP said something along the lines of "as real as this recording". I'm trying to find that post but I no longer can

 ::)

Yes i remember that post too and it's deleted now, hmmm...

haha what a bastard

Here (https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=264203.0)'s the cached version.

Just saved it locally, in case google cache updates.

Sorry for the delay in replying; the butthurt being spewed from Chang Noi had me pinned against the bathroom wall and unable to reach the keyboard.

I'll make no further comment on the source document as it is already comprehensive.

As previously mentioned in this thread, Thailand has criminal defamation laws that apply even to proven truthful statements link (http://www.thailandlaw.org/defamation-in-thailand.html).  There are plenty of people, of Chang Noi's ilk, who would see such laws utilized to afford silence in furtherance of their own agenda.

Chang Noi agenda is fairly clear.  He has most likely been operating in a legal grey area, news has arisen that the grey area is become more clarified and decidedly black, he has now gone into spin control mode, trying to muddy up the waters enough to provide himself with enough shadow to continue to operate.   I think I've read at least 50 posts under his name or his alias' on this forum and other outlets.  If you believe you are operating in a legal manner, then so be it and continue to do so...I wish you luck and would not intentionally do anything to disrupt you.

Personally I'm a believer in freedom; even when that right affords people like Chang Noi the ability to propagate falsehoods about me. Unfortunately people like Chang Noi's eagerness to see such freedoms bludgeoned, using draconian laws, limits my ability to defend my good name.

Let's talk about you Chang Noi seeing as you seem to be so against posting things without any proof?  Let's see what you've posted:

I am not Thai (proof; source?)
I am not in Thailand (proof; source?)
Bitcoin Co. Ltd. has made untruthful statements (proof; source?)
I own Bitcoin Co. Ltd (proof; source?)
I am drunk now, and have consumed alcohol in the last 2 days (proof; source?)
I am in a "rage", ie angry (proof; source?)
I have somehow broken some laws? (proof; source, legal codes)

Seeing as you are such an argent supporter of fact checking, please provide your sources for all these so called "facts" that you have published.  You are the only one published lies around here, without a single shred of evidence to back it up.

Everyone here is intelligent enough to see through your little smear campaign.

Let me ask you; if you are so interested in the truth, have you contacted the Bank of Thailand yet (phone or email, etc...) to confirm the facts?

If you are sincere then please PM me and I will provide you with the telephone/email of people that you can contact directly.

PM Sent, good luck and please post your findings.  Note I doubt you'll get any official statements, but at least you will be able to verify if in fact any such meeting, mentioned in the source document, took place.

why was the post that said you had a recording of the meeting removed?


It was your reply to this post


edit: i suppose we have to consider the possibility that people can get arrested for telling the truth (or falsity) in such a draconian country like Thailand, as we have so learned. we should not wish anyone not violent to go to jail.

how prescient

Chang Noi we both know the criminal defamation laws in Thailand are draconian.  If I found a toenail in my big mac and told people about it, I could be put in prision for up to 2 years if mcdonalds decided to press charges; unless I was able to prove that the reason I told people was not to harm mcdonalds in any way.

It's just a shame that you've chosen to import those laws into this environment so that a free and open discussion can no longer take place.

Chaang Noi you do realize that slander means "oral defamation"?

That's nonsense, I've been working the "toenail burger" scam in Thailand for over two years. I've probably eaten near on a thousand bigmacs now and only ever paid for 2.

What foreigners don't come to Thailand for a bit of "oral defamation"?

Chang Noi you do realize what "oral" is don't you?  Or did you skip that class at law school?

Chang Noi as previously stated I'm not going to make any more comments on the source document.

At this point I'm merely here to defend my good name from your smear campaign.

If you want more information on the topic you should contact the BoT (which you are supposedly doing right now through your extensive network of contacts?).

I'm sure if you write to them they will be very willing to setup a meeting to discuss the legality of your usage of Bitcoin in Thailand; when you have done this please let us know.

I only point this out as it seems odd that someone claiming to have attended one of the top law schools and being knowledgeable of legal matters would not know the difference between libel and slander.

Well at least everyone here now knows for the records what Chang Noi is all about.  "Reporting" people...

I hope none of your neighbors are watching free cable...cuz Chang Noi will be there to dob them in.  Watch out jay walkers, Chang Noi's about.

There should be a new tag, in addition to scammer..."GRASS"

How have I attacked any bitcoiners?  Your angst seems to be misdirected at best.

Anyway I am done with this conversation, you have been weighed, you have been measured and you have been found wanting.

Let us know when you've done all your fact checking, or grassing or whatever it is you are doing.

LOL... How has he quit the Thai BTC community?

He did say he was advised to not do pretty much anything bitcoin related anymore, and he did say he followed that advice

Thailand may have draconian defamation laws, but except for the criminal part (which is rarely if ever applied between private parties), they are barely worse than those in the UK.  Even in the United States, with our vaunted First Amendment, you can be dragged through court on a bullshit libel case for months or years (though with good legal representation you stand a much better chance of it just being thrown out of court without a trial and getting your attorney fees paid by the other side).

I seriously doubt the Bank of Thailand is getting into an argument about what it did or didn't say.  It is the central bank of Thailand, which makes its President or Chairman or whatever the equivalent of Ben Bernanke in the U.S.  This actually does make what the bank says some form of "the law" in Thailand.  It doesn't make him some kind of king who can just spout off jackass pronouncements that contradict existing statutory law.

The Bank of Thailand has a website, and there is nothing on it about Bitcoin.  If it has promulgated regulations about Bitcoin, I can't find them.  But they probably don't just translate the possibly tens of thousands of pages of regulations they have into English and publish them the instant they make them.

I would assume (basing this assumption on the idea that a central bank in Thailand acts like one in other countries) that before actually issuing regulations, there is a public comment period of some kind where the regulations are proposed, there are then hearings, which usually involve interested parties such as actual bankers or other business people in the regulated industry, there is at least some pretense of considering these opinions, then the regulation is promulgated and becomes effective.  The central bank issues documents saying what the regulation is, the actual regulations (often incomprehensible gobbledygook to anyone other than a lawyer), an executive summary purporting to explain the regulations in simple terms, stuff like this.

Where is this stuff?  

While I can understand a business being very concerned about even an informal statement by something like the central bank of the country where they're operating, hey, if Ben Bernanke said Bitcoin was illegal tomorrow I might not get rid of my BTC but I'd certainly shit myself and turn pale, when a central bank actually takes an official position, there's PAPER about it.

Even in the U.S., FinCEN has said some somewhat disturbing things about their view of Bitcoin, but what they've said on paper has been fairly reasonable.

Where's the paper on all this bullshit?  If it's in Thai, someone needs to find it and translate it.  

Whether OP or Goat, or another person, someone needs to do this, because the bullshit is starting to stink.

Correct for once.  Did anyone actually read the source article?

This is now also being reported by Heise, Germany's most important provider for IT news, Süddeutsche Zeitung, Germany's second largest daily newspaper and Der Standard, Austrias fourth largest daily newspaper.

http://www.posttoday.com/เศรษฐกิจ-หุ้น/การเงิน/237451/ธปท-จับตาเฟดตัดสินคิวอี

http://asiancorrespondent.com/111332/has-bitcoin-been-banned-from-thailand/

To not shit yourself and turn pale you just have to be prepared as it is the most likely scenario.

dave111223,

You claim to have had a meeting "with about 15 members of the Bank of Thailand in attendance" - unverified

You claim that they have told you "the following Bitcoin activities are illegal in Thailand: Unverified

• Buying Bitcoins
• Selling Bitcoins
• Buying any goods or services in exchange for Bitcoins
• Selling any goods or services for Bitcoins
• Sending Bitcoins to anyone located outside of Thailand
• Receiving Bitcoins from anyone located outside of Thailand

You (suspiciously) deleted a post whereby you claimed that the meeting/source was "As credible as sitting in the meeting myself, listening to the words coming out of their mouths"- Suspicious

You have also said that "When a senior official at a central bank tells you point-blank, "buying or selling bitcoins is illegal"" -Unverified

You have also said that "Alt-coins were discussed at the meeting, same rules apply." - Unverified

You have also said that "...for there to be any penalty it would have to go through the courts..." Seems sound

You quoted your lawyer in Thialand as having said that "In my home country of America, the fundamental basis of law is that every act is LEGAL, unless there is a law that makes that act illegal.  Thailand’s fundamental basis of law is quite different – in Thailand, every act is ILLEGAL, unless there is a law (and process, and procedure) to make it legal." - Unverified

You then said that "I'll make no further comment on the source document as it is already comprehensive." - Source is dubious

Your comments have then moved away from the topic at hand and morphed into insulting other members, and calling them out on semantics.

You have also agreed that there is "...nothing on paper." - Unverified

I think it should be your duty, as you were alledgedly involved in this meeting first hand, and then proceeded to act as lead journalist in the matter, to clear some of these unverified claims up.

You will be aware from above posters, that your story has garnered world-wide attention, and, if reliable, then you of course should have nothing to hide....

The longer that you hide/don't respond/fail to provide evidence, the more it looks like you may have mis-interpreted something (or perhaps you lawyer mis-interpreted something, or perhaps your lawyer's translator mis-interpreted something, idk) and the more it looks as if this "Original Source" of yours (i.e. YOUR OWN WEBSITE) is just as credible as me, sitting here, saying that I just got off the phonewith Thailand, and guess what, they told me that "Bitcoin is legal"

Edit: Strikethrough re/

e4xit you are quoting the article as my words, please correct this.

Wow what a whole bunch of nothing!

Why do you keep insisting there should be something on paper? Is Bitcoin on paper?

Dave111223,

Please accept my apologies for this. I have amended my post accordingly.

Please feel free to rebut the unverified bits of information identified within the post in any order you so choose.

thanks.

"On paper" is a commonly used western phrase, meaning that the idea being discussed (usually, but not exclusively orally) has been laid down properly.
In this context, it would be taken (by a westerner) to mean "laid down by law (officially)".

I, of course, do not want him to print out the original article on paper, and take a picture of it for me.

Apologies if the idiom was above your understanding of English (or you are not a native speaker etc).

thanks.

too many commas mate

e4xit

Governor of Bank of Thailand (head of the central bank) has already verified points mentioned in the source as accurate:
http://www.posttoday.com/เศรษฐกิจ-หุ้น/การเงิน/237451/ธปท-จับตาเฟดตัดสินคิวอี
(roughly translated: http://asiancorrespondent.com/111332/has-bitcoin-been-banned-from-thailand/)

And has not denounced any part of the statement as false or inaccurate.

Given this; why would you assume that the source is in fact fabricated?

Dave111223,

Thank you for replying. I have actually never said that I did not believe you (you can check if you like), I only asked you for your sources, as you had provided none.

I understand however,why you may have defaulted to this hostile view of my questions, as I did read the whole thread through and can see that it may have appeared to you that people were attacking you personally, when I think really they were havign difficulty communicating that they did not believe your 'story' without the provision of credible sources.

thanks.

That's the same quoted text dave!!!

“Listening to their explanation, it is almost in the direction of the exchange rate so we asked they stop so we could investigate first and for now we asked they not involve themselves with the Baht because what they do may be a way to speculate on the exchange rate. Hence, we asked for time to look at the issue first. For the issue that they explained on being able to oversee other countries, the BOT asked them to send more information first”

“ฟังที่เขาอธิบาย มันค่อนไปในทางเกี่ยวข้องกับอัตราแลกเปลี่ยน จึงต้องขอให้เขาหยุดและตรวจสอบก่อน และเวลานี้เราก็ขอให้เขาไม่มายุ่งกับเงินบาท เพราะสิ่งที่เขาทำอาจเป็นช่องทางเข้ามาเก็งกำไรอัตราแลกเปลี่ยนก็เป็นได้ จึงขอเวลาศึกษาก่อน ส่วนกรณีที่เขาชี้แจงว่า สามารถทำได้ในการกำกับดูแลของประเทศอื่นๆ ทางแบงก์ชาติก็ขอให้เขาส่งข้อมูลมาให้ดูเพิ่มเติมแล้ว” นายประสาร กล่าว

It's completely different to what you were saying are you crazy man?

....edit: looks like they didn't even flat out refuse your bank account why didn't you put more effort in and get yourself a little exchange going mate

There's a fine line.

For me it's difficult not to attack him personally, since he personally spread this fake news which the stupid media copy-pasted without bothering to check if it was legit...

While it's not his fault if the media are stupid, it is definitely his fault if he spread FUD.

I sold my entire Bitcoin holdings on reception of his news and burnt the money I received as not to get into any legal difficulties.

I've bribed a screw in the Hilton to right this comment as I was unaware both burning an image of the King, and lighting  a naked flame in a petrol station was illegal here.

Lohoris, you are of course correct that each individual should be help accountable for his/her own actions (unless perhaps there is a mental condition, or age (maturity) which has not been reached.

In the spirit of 'innocent until proven guilty', I was just trying to give him a chance to provide his sources, before too denouncing him as a fraud/FUD-spreader!

But I think, judging by what the Thai representatives from among us in the forum have kindly translated, it appears that  FUD-spreader he may be ;)

Correct.

Also, since he claimed to have proof, but refused to post them, this fact alone would mark him as FUDder.

(plus, he also refused to answer the questions asked to him, such as if he was there, if he speaks thai... he just ignored them. If he wasn't lying, he could have answered)

Thanks Dave!

http://a.asset.soup.io/asset/2883/6058_24a1.jpeg

(Not entirely sure why this appears in the google image search for "Thanks Dave", but oh well!)  ???

Because it's a perfect anagram of "thanks Dave for walking along the waves"

Refuse my bank account?  ...you don't open a bank account at the central bank

Governor supports the following facts:
- Bitcoin Co. applied for exchange licenses
- Meetings were had (explanations given)
- Business asked to stop operations

Facts not mentioned in his comments are the direct statements made about legality of bitcoin trades...but why ask the business to stop operation if they are operating perfectly legally?  If this info was fabricated, and never issued by the BoT, then why not state so?


Prasarn Trairatvorakul is a man...fail...I'm so tempted to hit ignore but...ah just can't do it.

As for additional information I can discuss in private with anyone who has a sincere interest in specific questions; but I cannot post any more public comments due to clear legal threats and intimidation from Chang Noi.  Feel free to PM me.  I highly doubt that anyone else here would be willing publish personal information publicly with someone like Chang Noi screaming  "I'm gonna grass you in", "I hope you go to jail", etc....  As previously mentioned criminal defamation laws can be applied to truthful statements in Thailand so I must be careful.

Sorry get your license! As the article says It is accurate to say that Thailand has not issued you a license to a Bitcoin Exchange, but it is a different issue from banning Bitcoin.

Post Today cite BOT Governor Prasarn who states that in relation to the statement the Bitcoin company posted on their Web site, that the company contacted the BOT to request permission for the “money changer” business, but what they are doing is not exchanging of money. It may constitute being related to changes in the exchange rate. Therefore, we asked for suspension of activities through their Web site while we investigated. For now, we are liaising with relevant authorities to look at the details both the ICT (in relation to electronic transactions), Ministry of Finance, and the SEC before considering whether we can give a license or not.

“Listening to their explanation, it is almost in the direction of the exchange rate so we asked they stop so we could investigate first and for now we asked they not involve themselves with the Baht because what they do may be a way to speculate on the exchange rate. Hence, we asked for time to look at the issue first. For the issue that they explained on being able to oversee other countries, the BOT asked them to send more information first” Mr. Prasarn stated

I gave you contacts at the BoT, to add to your already extensive network of contacts, that you were in touch with today....what was the result of the follow up you did?

As I said I'll be willing to discuss with anyone interested in private.

What a bunch of retards gather sometimes on these forums?

We all should be grateful to OP for the timely info he gave us about Thai central bank order to suspend his Bitcoin business. Instead bunch of idiots decided to blame him for bank's decision.

Why did you sell? It is a good news!
I bought on this news and have 10% profit now.

And the email addresses?  Were they public too?

I was joking I live in Thailand you wally!

Ah okay, what else you're joking with?

Almost every post I write, I'm a very sarcastic man that can't help making shit jokes

Can we just agree that this might be what they said to him, that they believed it was illegal, that Dave himself didn't (mean to) say that it was illegal, but in the case that it was, he closed operations just to avoid legal ramifications? I really don't want this guy to go to jail for some misunderstanding.

edit: old topic title was "Bitcoin Illegal in Thailand" so, yeah, he was wrong there because there actually is no law that says that, regardless of how the legal system there might be regarding things the law doesn't cover. The point is, the law doesn't cover bitcoins. Address that dave and i think we can move on. Perhaps clarify yourself better, and to the public for the confusion. That's why there's such an uproar against your perceived antics

like, this is what the misleading wording of your posts caused:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=264463.0;topicseen
"Thailand Bans Bitcoin"
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=264214.0;topicseen
"Now that BTC is illegal in Thailand, which country will ban BTC next?"
+ heavy networking effects throughout most press outlets.

Like, please issue a clarifying official statement on your site so we can move on. Likely that will protect you as well.

+1 Sorry Dave I'm just an argumentative fucker out of boredom sometimes I know he's quite right

I'm sorry but if your central bank told you should suspend your exchange because Bitcoin is not money, there is no doubt that the only conclusion is that Bitcoin is illegal as money in Thailand. You might not like it but this is it.

what sort of ceremony is this?

:) happy for you

I need to go back there. last time I was only 13

ps: Bitcoin community, we have some serious friends in our network  :)

What did you get honors for?

He beat Sagat.

lol

i never beat him :(

I beat Adon! Do I get honors too?

Nope, sorry, not even an achievement... :/
Life's unfair!

http://www.bahtcoin.com/

They have been running various electronic payment systems, including an e-cash of sorts ("webmoney") since 2006. Bitcoin is part of their offerings. No problems there.

the name really brings a smile to my face :) so clever

Can we have some productive conversation here, and attempt to control the damage?

Dave and Goat are partly justified in their reactions, but not completely. Yes, it appears that some of the BoT officials have intervened in a negative way, and made a request to halt Bitcoin trading. From their alleged statements it appears, not surprisingly, that they are mentally incompetent ("due to lack of laws, these activities are illegal...").

No, there is no law against Bitcoin, and no, Bitcoin is not illegal in Thailand. Dave has not been careful in wording of his initial statements, and his careless public statements have reverberated and mutated into FUD in the World media. On the other hand, Dave may be right in that, despite their mental retardation, said BoT officials could make his life difficult and unpleasant.

What we all need now is a long, wet, kiss between Goat and Dave, followed by their carefully orchestrated PR and political campaign. Both of them have something to offer to this cause.

Goat, Dave, bahtcoin, and in fact the whole Kingdom of Thailand have vested interest in seeing Bitcoin as a technology adopted and used.

Really? Why don't you read it once again?


BoT Governor is saying that Bitcoin is not money and you claim he is reasonable?

becoin, I think I understand now why your ignore glows so brightly....

You appear to have responded to this 'announcement' from Dave by blindly accepting it and calling those who ask for evidence "retards". Do you have the capacity for individual critical thinking?

It also appears from your above statement, that you have missed the entire point of this thread; no-one as far as I can tell is bothering to argue over whether Dave111223 had a meeting with BoT (although it has not been proved, it is not really important), what we are debating is his outrageous claim that "Bitcoin is illegal in Thailand".

-ignore-

kthx

I invited anyone seeking knowledge to PM me and I received exactly 0 PMs; which I think shows that the naysayers here are not interested in anything other than flaming and smearing in order to restore stability to their own environments.

You can accuse me of spreading FUD; I was similarly chastised when being first to post about lengthy delays in the Mt Gox wire transferred several weeks before their hiatus.

Not to worry, such pharisaical people will not prevent me from making any future information I come across available to the general bitcoin community.  As I know most of the community is made up of intelligent individual who are able to take in all available info and opinions, analyze it and come to their own conclusions. As opposed to the vocal minority who seek to censor anything which may cause them to make desperate and irrational decisions.

<tinfoil> I'm wondering if that was intentional...

Actually, no.  I am not an expert in Thailand's laws.  I don't think anyone in this thread is.

However, so far as I can tell, they said no such things.  It seems that OP asked the Bank of Thailand for an affirmative statement that these activities are legal.  He suspended activities based, assuming everyone has been truthful, on the Bank of Thailand's NOT stating affirmatively that his actions are legal.  They appear, in fact, to have reserved judgment for another time.

There does not appear to be any statement that any of these activities are illegal.  While OP has possibly done us a long-term service in prodding the Bank of Thailand to provide some regulatory certainty so that business can continue, he might also have simply recklessly prodded a scary state entity to make a bad, hasty decision.  I guess we'll see in a week or two.  I'll judge the action by its results.

But nothing in Thailand that has any power to make laws has actually said Bitcoin is illegal.  Goat is completely right on that part.  The Bank of Thailand might or might not say that really soon, but it just hasn't yet.  And if a central bank says something with legal significance, it says it on paper.

He was caught making a statement that turns out not to have much factual foundation.  (It may ultimately turn out to have been true, or at least partly true.)

I haven't seen any reason to believe he was deliberately lying.  Why would he?

might being key word :)

also, Dave acknowledging that mining bitcoins and gifting bitcoins is legal leads me to believe the specificity of the above was what was said at some point, though any evidence of a record or even the existence of such a record could not be disclosed for one reason or another.

The website is not owned by me, it is owned by Bitcoin Co. Ltd., of which I hold no ownership.  There are no untrue statements on the website.

Laffo,

let's put an end to this charade.

You are David Barnes of Boca Raton, Florida
- http://profiles.wordpress.org/dave111223/
- http://advancedstyle.com
- http://www.whois.com/whois/advancedstyle.com

A whois of Bitcoin.co.th lists one "Tachpicha ketmayoon Barnes",
an obvious pseudonym you have repeatedly used (and tried but failed
to hide behind whoisguard) on your various other failed websites such
as the fake soccer shirts store and the cheap plastic jewelry store,
all connected through their design by advancedstyle.com too.

bitcoin.in.th (a redirect to bitcoin.co.th) has an rname property of
"rname: dave.advancedstyle.com"

Explain again how you have no control over the site?

Yes I have power to "adjust" text on many websites, but would not consider doing so without the site owners consent obviously.

Yes I can say "All statements are true", as I have said all along.  Which part of the statements are talking about that were "public corrected"?   It seems to me the bank statements correlated with the details in the website statement, but they chose to omit reference to the direct details of bitcoin legality.

Which parts of the website statement were "corrected"?

We should not be very hard on Dave. Obviously he didn't make all this noise on purpose. Yellow press did. He seems another naive westerner newcomer to Asia lost in translation. The only his guilt I see that he went overprotective. Instead of admitting his misunderstanding he was going deep and deep in to quagmire of silly arguments. Like this one.

Then why go at all to the Bank for license if they are operating legally?

Dave you put the Bank in bad situation asking it to license what it's not able to license. First mistake.

You asked for money exchange license though your operation falling into e-money field, which is licensed differently. Second mistake.

But even if you asked for e-money license it won't be granted to you as the current regulation assumes underwriter entity and other traditional stuff which is not applicable for Bitcoin. You (or your lawer) didn't learn money related regulation prior to application, didn't seek for consultancy. Yes, it is not your duty to study laws, but it was your third mistake.

greyhawk your post contains so many inaccuracies it is comical.

Let me guess. The Boca Raton adress is fake. How wiley.

Yes I still think the original website statement was accurate, that BoT offered advice that an extensive list of bitcoin activities were/are illegal.

Yes I think most of Bitcoin activities are illegal.  With the exception of a few that were mentioned earlier in the topic, such as mining, gifting within the country etc..

Do I want them to be illegal? No of course not

Do I think you could challenge the legality of bitcoins through the court if charges were brought?  Yes, but if you lose there are criminal penalties associated with running financial services (such as money changer) without a license (ie 10 years in prison)

Yes I can point to the original link, which I have already said is accurate.


This is opposite from the truth and where if your reference for them saying it is "not illegal" (or "legal") either will do


Here are some references you may be interested in:
Law: look at #4 http://www.kodmhai.com/m4/m4-2/h82/m1-9.html กฏควบ คุมการแลกเปลียน มาตรา 4
Law: look at #9 http://www.baanjomyut.com/library/law/82.html พ ร บ เงินตรา มาตรา 9

If it is your legal opinion that those laws don't apply to Bitcoin, then continue to operate as normal.  However it's important to know the possible ramifications (as previously mentioned 10 years in prison for operating as as an unlicensed "money changer").  I'm sure similar penalties apply for selling unlicensed financial instruments, or unlicensed epayment transmitter; whichever way they want to define BTC on the day.

Of course I'm not sure of your situation.  If you are just dealing on the down low (localbitcoins) cash in suitcase sort of thing then the chance of you having legal troubles are probably nill.

If you are a static target then the risk is greatly increased.

Or if they trace back that a drug dealer, or bomber in the south used your service to move money to buy bombs or something then it's squeaky bum time.

I believe there is the possibility OP just got caught in the cracks between different departments and different laws governing them. It is possible that there is both a broad and a narrow interpretation of what money changer business is. To some department running an BTC exchange looks like a money changer business and therefore it needs a license. On the other hand the department that issues these licences they have their own narrow definition of what a good money changer business looks like and to whom they are happy to issue licenses. This BTC exchange might just look too odd to them so that they are not ready to jump issuing the license immediately just on this very week when you first asked about it.

If some company that already runs a Baht-USD-EUR money changer business and has got a license based on that decides to add BTC to their portfolio, it might be that no official says anything because everything looks totally fine to everybody.

OP just has to figure out what details are needed so that you fulfil the criterias that the government have written down and have been using for years to judge whether a new business qualifies for the licenses. Changing the government policies and criterias is not likely to happen overnight. Spreading rumours that BTC is illegal in Thailand, it might make it more like an uphill battle in this quest to get a license.

Or you could read the thread.

Tachpicha is a ladies name in Thailand the fact it has Barnes at the end of it's likely to be his wife rather than a pseudonym!

Was that to me?


I still think that there is a serious possibility that the official saying this really meant: "Buying and selling bitcoins without a money changer license is illegal and since you don't have one, you better stop doing it"

Is there some particular reason I am not allowed to think that and I am not allowed to write about it? A more BTC positive idea than most of the other posts that to me seem very negative towards the future of BTC in Thailand?

So he bought a wife and is using her name for legal purposes. Still a pseudonym.

"Wishful thinking" is the term for your thoughts.

I still don't understand why is all that drama that one central bank said Bitcoin is illegal?

It is absolutely fine to write that. But be careful, don't write "Bitcoin is illegal in this country". Because that is what they did'n say.

Anti-bitcoin powers would use any chance to damage image of the system. I'm pretty sure that they gave the go-ahead even to respected media to wind unverified information. Easy for them because the scapegoat is there, ready and hard-nosily keeps his original posting.

The fact that one central bank announced that Bitcoin is illegal doesn't damage image of the system in any way. Quite on the contrary. This fact just confirms that Bitcoin is exactly the instrument that it was meant to be when created 5 years ago. It can successfully compete with central bank fiat money.

Becuase the central bank never said Bitcoin is illegal. Even if they did, it is their opinion, not the law.

The Thais I know do not care about Bitcoin. If Bitcoin in Thailand should be a topic some day, then the Thais will not accept a ban. But as long as Thai People do not care about Bitcoin, I would be careful as ฝรั่ง. No one will help you. Most buddhists do not care about money. Whether it is physical or virtual. Most ฝรั่ง only know the tourist centers. But normal Thais are very different. They will not even wash your underwear. Money means little to them. Bitcoin hardly leads to enlightenment from the perspective of a Thai.

I think you maybe havent been to Thailand, they have money trees outside the temples, everything is for sale in Thailand

I use a washing machine like most normal people

This thread has clearly run it's course and now regressing to discussion of Buddhism, washing machines and my personal life.

I will reopen the thread if any new announcements are posted.  As previously mentioned if you need more information on the topic PM me.