Bitcoin Forum

EDIT: This thread is intended for brainstorming about new ways to do Physical bitcoins.  I've started a separate thread for questions about http://www.TitanBtc.com (http://www.TitanBtc.com) in the Marketplace section.
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Physical bitcoins are absolutely the BEST way to introduce people to the concept of bitcoins.  I've personally recruited dozens, if not hundreds, of people to the bitcoin community and by far the most effective tool in winning someone over is simply handing them a physical coin.  There's just no replacement for feeling the weight of bitcoin in your hand.

However, after years of UI/UX design for web and product launches, I know that there's no such thing as "too simple".  People need to be led gently down a path to understanding and the current generation of physical bitcoins isn't quite cutting it.  Physical bitcoins, both paper and coin, have the potential to be much more than novelty or collectible.  To realize that potential, I'm convinced that this community needs to have physical bitcoins that:

1. Look and feel like real currency

2. Have ZERO barriers to entry for newcomers

3. Require ZERO pre-existing knowledge of bitcoins to acquire, use and enjoy, and

4. Are inherently secure and impossible to counterfeit.  (Physical theft is always a danger, but that's a separate conversation.)

5. Seamlessly convert to bitcoins in your wallet with a minimum of technical knowledge required.

It's a tall order, but it's an important one to fill. Physical bitcoins serve as a valuable extension to cryptocurrencies and they're a vital bridge to the many people who have yet to embrace the idea of bitcoins.  Effectively reaching this group may allow cryptocurrencies to cross the chasm that exists between early adopters and the mainstream user.  If you have investments in bitcoin, this jump to the mainstream is what reduces risk and increases the return on your investment.  If you believe in the principals behind bitcoin, this jump to the mainstream is what opens people's eyes and brings about real, revolutionary change in our financial system.


Doug Feigelson, Mike Caldwell, Rob Kohr and others have shown us what is possible.  Thank you sincerely.  Let's build on their contributions and move forward.  What's next?  What does this next generation of physical bitcoins look like and how is it technically executed?  I'm looking for feedback from this community and I'm also looking people that are ready to design it and build it as I'm putting my personal/business resources behind this project.

Just a quick addition:  I've gotten a lot of questions from respected members of the community about how we're handling the cold storage and whether we can sell coins with the private keys included.

The short answer is that we run offline systems to sign transactions and bring them back to one of our web connected computers to broadcast to the network.  Cold storage is a service we're offering for people that don't necessarily know (or want to know) how to do it themselves.  

And yes, we're about to offer the option to forgo our cold storage service so that you can have your private key included underneath the hologram.  However, if you ever resell those coins, the new buyer will get a warning when they scan the barcode telling them what's up.  Feel free to PM me if this isn't clear, or you can email me at Tim@titanbtc.com.

Mike Caldwell initially gained trust with the community by posting his personal information.  Now years later he's well respected and has earned the trust of many.  Trust is something that can only be earned with time.   That's the real value you are offering behind the physical Bitcoins; being able to trust the creator.  Mike was first out of the gate, as such I think any competitor can only be second to his.

Now who are you and why should I trust you don't have all the private addresses stored?

Sums it up for me also. Trust is the start of everything.

Have you devised a defense against the solvent attack, demonstrated at this summer's DefCon?
http://codinginmysleep.com/casascius-physical-bitcoins-cracked-at-defcon/

My name is Tim Fillmore and I don't expect you to trust me like we trust Mike.  You can't just create trust out of thin air, and if you could it wouldn't be worth anything.  

These coins were created to wordlessly communicate the elegance and beauty that the bitcoin represents.  They are also a bridge to people that don't know what bitcoins really are.  I've found that traditional coin collectors are getting as excited about these as are existing bitcoin enthusiasts.  That's what its about.  

http://www.titanbtc.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Titan_One_frontWM.jpg
Titan One physical bitcoin, Front


I have the utmost respect for those in the community that need time and the verification of other community members before they get on board.  No hard feelings at all.  In regards to the private keys, we can't really offer cold storage without having control over the transfer of bitcoins.  We're totally OK with people who disagree with that decision.  For those people, we're about to offer the option to have the private keys included on the coin, underneath the hologram.  

That's a sweet looking coin.

What are your coins made of?

I couldn't find this information on your site or in your OP.

2-factor authentication is built in.  You can't redeem a coin without also having access to an email address that the coin is registered to.  A new owner can immediately change that registration info and protect the coin's value from being swept by someone that previously owned the coin.

Where are you located?

These are made of a copper-nickel alloy called 230, which is commonly called "Goldine" because it looks like 14k gold.  The 5 and 10 bitcoin denominations that we'll be releasing are silver and gold respectively.

There are some more details in the specs here: http://www.titanbtc.com/product/titan-one/

Sounds like a lot of work for a physical coin  :-\

Our office is at 9251 Gordon Ave. in La Habra, California.  We obviously don't do any manufacturing or process any precious metals there, though.

Thank you for clarifying that for me. Mahalo.

I've been hearing that from a few people.  We will be offering the coins with private key included for those that don't want to mess with it.  For most though, they seem to like the peace of mind.

I don't mean to come off as critical but preferentially I dislike centralized systems. What happens in the case where your business gets shutdown and all information on your servers are inaccessible?

At that time no coins could change ownership given that the associated password and email associated with the coins being sold would be static. Is this right?

Is there a window of time that the original owner of the coin could change the information of the coin on your servers after the sale of the coin(s) and thus screwing the buyer?

Please correct me if I am wrong on any of my comments above as I will not pretend to completely understand your business and security models.

I agree with you that decentralized systems are better.  This is a closed system so that we can offer cold-storage for people that want it.  For people just getting started with bitcoins, the barrier to entry is a knowledge gap as opposed to a lack of trust.  We want these coins to attract new members to the bitcoin community and so far it's working GREAT.   In the case that we have to shut down, we will be emailing out a link to the coin's registered email addresses that allows owners to download the private keys from an encrypted connection.  I've run other web companies that use redundant server systems and we're setup so that our system will continue to operate even if we went out of business.  For those that don't want to deal with that, we'll be including the private key with the coin, just like other physical bitcoins.

As far as people scamming each other when doing third-party sales, there's not too much we can do to stop that.  People will still sell things and then never deliver.  For these coins, you can scan the back and immediately see that the coin was redeemed.  Nothing can be foolproof,  but it does give you an immediate way to say, "wait a minute, you sold me a funded coin and this one says it's already redeemed."    

Wouldn't that just be the same as looking up the address on the block chain? I get it you are trying to get new users.

Preferentially I guess that is why I am against centralized systems because then it allows manipulation to possibly occur in terms of the validity of the data.

Right now checking two or more block explorers ensures that the coins are still at the address as opposed to a single site.

I forgot to compliment you on the superb artwork. I'm impressed.

You might seriously consider discussing this model with legal so that it can be cleared of money transmission issues.  If you are holding the value and it is transferred from person to person, there could be some questions raised, being that you are in the US.
I am not saying that it is illegal or wrong.  It is pretty cool actually, but just a word to the wise... cya with your legal counsel.  Even if it is perfectly legal, it is good to have a legal defense fund ready and a lawyer that knows the facts and the law ahead of issues being raised.  If nothing else, set aside a portion of profit in a custodial fund for when you get around to this.

BTW, this is a nice looking piece, we should talk.  :)

You're right on the money about decentralized being better.  In fact, I've already got guys working on a system that addresses these issues...but its a few months out at least.  As ridiculous as it sounds, the difference between sending someone to blockchain.info, vs. having a "friendly" interface deliver the info to them is literally a make or break issue for lots of newbies.

Thank you sincerely for the compliment.  I was super excited when Lealana coins came out, as I had more litecoins than bitcoins at the time.  You did a great job with those, all around.

 

I've dug pretty deep and we're definitely a MSB as long as we accept dollars.  It's a fine point of distinction but, We can't really say that we make it easy for people to get started with bitcoins without letting them pay in their currency of choice.  We're already planning through the process of registration and compliance.  I appreciate your concern and its right on, but that's part of the project.

Thanks very much for the compliment.  We have 3 more designs on the way soon for the half, quarter and 0.1 bitcoin denominations.  Stay tuned. 

I would prefer an original bitcoin look of the coins...

Take a look at this: https://www.bitmit.net/en/item/68244-stunning-new-physical-bitcoins-limited-edition-casascius

I'm not sure I understand how this one works.  Could you explain a bit more?

It appears these just say 10mBTC and do not give any access to any cold storage of actual bitcoins. The post says "key-free". Meaning no key?

It's a bit misleading in my view the way it is posted.

I think these coins can't be "unloaded". They have a fixed 10 mbtc denomination and a (much higher) collectors value which is of course fluctuating.

Hi Tim,

    Really glad to see you have posted on bitcointalk about your coins!

    Trust issues with centralisation aside this is a different approach to Casascius and I think it could have a place in the market.

    Can one buy via your website now?

This is great, Very happy to hear it.  The selling of the pieces may be less of an issue (even if it turns out that US want those to be MSB) than the custodial relationship during transmission/reregistration and the MTB risks (which have much higher AML requirements).  This is a great innovation, and looks to be first of its kind, and I want you guys to be around for decades to come. 

Yes.  Our coins are available for sale now.  Feel free to PM with questions.

Honestly the best physical BitCoin I've seen yet. I really really want one of these.. just beautiful.
Well done Titan!

Tim,

when do you anticipate the gold and silver coins to be available?  hopefully some with this same design pattern which is beautiful.

We're working on the silver version of this coin now.  As you can imagine, its expensive to get production started but I expect we'll at least have the silver one ready to sell sometime in November.

Thanks for the compliment, Cypherdoc. :)  That means a lot coming from you.

We actually started out the project by consulting with one of the current engravers for the U.S. mint who is producing the latest line of quarters.  Interestingly, The legal team at the U.S. Mint told him he could no longer be involved with our project because they felt that bitcoin was a foreign currency.  Since engravers at the U.S. mint can't work for foreign countries, his working with us was deemed to be a violation of his non-compete clause. 

The U.S. Mint legal team called bitcoins "foreign currency".  If that isn't evidence that bitcoin is real money, I don't know what is.

Thanks Fat Magic!  There's no artist I know who doesn't like a good ego stroking, so I'm forwarding these comment on to our sculptor and designer.

I've not completed checkout using your website yet but wanted to as: can one pay in bitcoin?

From the website:  "In fact, you can report a theft to our security team and the coins in question will be deactivated, leaving the crook with goods that are flagged as stolen.  For a nominal fee, we’ll even transfer the value of your stolen coin to a replacement coin and send it out to you."

Woah, hold up.  So you're saying that you can control the usage/activation of the bitcoin from your homebase there, Titan? 

Pardon me, but that's a little frightening that at any time you could change your mind and simply deactivate all the Titan coins out there and buy yourself an island somewhere.

I thought the 2FA requirement would queue everyone in to the centralization of this system.

@OP Good idea, bad implementation?  Seems that way a little, you're basically selling bitcoin IOUs instead of actual bitcoins.

For security, we used a closed system that tracks coin ownership, with 2-factor authentication built in.  The big benefit for this comes into play when you're buying from a third party.  Because of the ease of hacking or counterfeiting other phsyical bitcoins out there, we're providing a solution that limits redemption of the coin to the person who currently owns it.  You need access to the email address registered to the coin in order to redeem.  New owners can change that registration as soon as they buy, protecting themselves from buying a coin with a compromised private key.

I totally understand that this isn't for everyone and for people that don't want that extra protection, we'll be offering coins that include the private key underneath the hologram. 

For new bitcoin owners, we're finding that the 2 factor authentication provides a peace of mind regarding the safety of their investment.  For existing members of the community, we're happy to be flexible.

The design is absolutely stunning. Well done!

The premium is pretty steep, making them more like collector items. As such they will probably be stored in a safe long-term. This also means I would not be comfortable being dependent on titanbtc.com/ still being around by the time the coin might be redeemed.

I totally see your point.  We didn't decide on this particular implementation lightly.  With any product, saying yes to one benefit often means saying no to another.  

For new bitcoin owners, the ease of use is the biggest hurdle.  Email registration is something that is familiar and easy to understand.  We ARE working on a more advanced, decentralized solution, but innovation takes time :)  Fortunately for us, the benefits of these coins seem to outweigh the drawbacks for many.

Sounds more like degeneration as its a centralized subcurrency of bitcoin

Not to mention it's illegal to distribute your own currency in most countries

Thanks Ninja!  We're pretty confident that we can keep the website open for many years, even if the company that runs it went under tomorrow.  We've got redundant server systems with prepaid hosting and some other tricks.  

With that being said, I totally agree that some people aren't going to be comfortable relying on our website being around.  For people that choose not to take us up on the 2-factor authentication service we're providing, we'll be rolling out coins with private keys included underneath the hologram next week.  These coins will work just like any other physical bitcoin (with all the same vulnerabilities) and we'll gently recommend that people don't resell them, but I'm happy to be flexible with what this community is looking for.

I respect your opinion, but humbly disagree.  In regard to the legality, we're classified as a currency exchange according to U.S. law. 

If there were a governing body limiting the forms that bitcoin could take, then perhaps we might run afoul of that institution.

Fortunately, the bitcoin community isn't "big government".

Ok wait so there is another party involved running the servers? What's to stop them from sweeping the database of information for redeeming the bitcoins?

Seems like too many hands in the cookie jar to me.

Or am I missing something?

Perhaps you should address how your system being run by another party is indeed secure.

Your 'TitanBTC' are not BTC, they are TitanBTC. Your coins are 'redeemable in Bitcoin'. Just like US dollars used to be 'redeemable in gold'.

So your selfmade currency TitanBTC has little to do with bitcoin, except that they are redeemable to BTC at your private 'central bank'.

This isn't a currency exchange, this is a currency by its own. A centralized currency.

Happy to explain data security.  We use Rackspace for hosting the front end of the website at the moment, with an edge server for DDOS protection in front.  Amazon Web Services is a backup.  The database servers where coin info is stored are encrypted 5 layers deep.  This is a system of encryption that was developed by researchers at MIT and decryption keys are issued based on access levels.  Access is granted to decrypt certain parts of the database in stages, as the client enters in protected information.  Root access info is not stored on the server in any form, so there isn't any way for someone to get the info from the database even if they have a complete copy of the server code and DB.

Besides that though, the private keys for these coins are in cold storage and are not kept on the servers.  Each coin basically has its own wallet.  

  

  

Do you have a specific legal precedent that you're concerned about on our behalf?  I think I'll have trouble addressing your concerns from a legal standpoint without some more particular detail.  I have discussed our model at length with representatives from FinCEN and we're working towards compliance as an MSB under the rules for a currency exchange.   

In regards to our 2-factor authentication and cold-storage, we're a service provider.  When you purchase a Titan Bitcoin, you are getting the BTC that goes with it.  It is stored on a single address until such time as the coin is redeemed, at which point the coin is transferred to the address of your choosing.  For those that don't want to take advantage of that service, we'll also be offering coins with the private keys included underneath the hologram shortly.

Feel free to PM me with questions.

Surely the 'TitanBTC' would just be considered as the manufacturer or brand name of a company producing circular rare metal pieces?

Making them redeemable is irrelevant. I could make a pound coin into a Bitcoin if I added a private key or a redeemable code to it. What then? By your logic the Dollar is now not real currency because its not redeemable against anything?

It's in no way a currency of its own because if you remove it's private key or redeemable code then its just a piece of rare metal, exchangeable for nada except its fiat monetary value. And it is no way centralized, because regardless how many coins TitanBTC offers he can not regulate the flow or change the price of Bitcoin or the market.. All he is doing is creating a new medium between consumer and market.

In what country is it illegal to distribute privately minted precious metals containing writings?
and
In what country is it illegal to distribute your own currency?

I think he (or she) may be referring to the laws in some countries regarding creating virtual currencies that are exchanged for real goods.  I'm just guessing at the objection though.  China for example has limitations that were put in place after QQcoin became so popular there.  I seem to recall Germany having some regulations regarding companies/websites that offer digital credits that are redeemed for real goods.

Wopwop, if you could be more specific I'd be happy to do some more research.  I'm fortunate enough to have a lot of legal resources and counsel at my disposal.  If there are laws to the effect that you're suggesting, I think most physical bitcoin makers are going to be in violation since many governments are now recognizing bitcoin as currency.

Sure, China...
http://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/2009/06/29/china-cracks-down-on-virtual-currency-for-real/
But not even there are either of the activities I listed illegal.

Tencent still distributes its own currency, QQcoin.  It is perfectly legal to do so, in China and everywhere else.
Its a pet peeve, I don't mean to derail your thread.  These phantom laws and imaginary government FUDs get annoying.  It is getting so that some people expect everything to be illegal.  When that happens, their respect for law tends to fail altogether because they can't tell the difference, and worse they have lost track of what ought to be illegal and what ought not be illegal and why.

Received email confirmation for my Titan Coin:
Ordered it the evening of October 14th.


Your Titan Bitcoin order #xxxx-xxxx-xxxx has shipped and should arrive in 2-3 days.

Email confirmation number:  xxx-xxx

IMPORTANT: As a security measure, Titan Bitcoins are shipped "un-funded".  The email confirmation number above is required in order to register your coins.  Simply follow the three steps below and the funds on your coin will be immediately available for redemption.

Step 1: Visit http://www.titanbtc.com/verify and type in your coin’s ID.  You can find the ID number directly below the bar code on the coin’s reverse.  Alternatively, scanning the coin’s bar code will take you directly to the coin’s ID page.
 
Step 2: Fill in the “Fund this Coin” registration form and click the “Submit” button.  You will need the email confirmation number found above, as well as the 10-digit delivery confirmation number that is printed on the packing slip included with your order.  When filling in the registration email and password fields, make sure you use an email address that you have access to.
 
Step 3:  Click on the confirmation link that was sent to your email.  You will be redirected to a “Registration Complete” page and your coin is now redeemable for bitcoins in your wallet at any time.  To learn more, visit http://www.titanbitcoin.com/.

Yeah I think I'd rather just have the private key under the hologram (optionally encrypted with a symmetric key when ordered).  Having to depend on your site still running in 10/20/50 years is kind of unacceptable - you can't predict whether you'll still be in business, and if you aren't for some reason, the coins would be worthless bitcoin-wise.  The symmetric keys that unlock each coin could be kept encrypted separate from the coins (like on mega.co.nz) by the user, so that any stolen coins would be useless. The only downside would be that the stored bitcoins would be unrecoverable if physically stolen.  Having an advanced option like this would entice me to buy these.  I hope you add something like this in the future!  Nice looking product!

Not good enough. Many people (like me) got into bitcoin precisely because they want to eliminate counter party risk. A coin like this is something I might give to my children some day. Assuming TitanBTC will still be around in 25+ years from now would be foolish.


That sounds good. But how do I know a copy of the private key is not stored at TitanBTC where it was created? Or if it was securely generated using a true random number generator?

I'm not sure if this is possible but what I would like to see is some kind of kit. E.g. a coin where I can inject my own private key and seal it with a secure hologram. (Similar to a paper wallet kit). But I guess it wouldn't be a TitanBTC anymore at that point. It would be a coin wallet.

I've been seeing those Titan coins popping up on ebay. I love the look!

We do sell these coins with the private key included as an option for those that don't want to use the 2-factor authentication "Coin registration".  Sometime next week, you'll be able to choose to have the private key included when you add the coins to your cart on our site.  I'll make another thread here when we open that up.  We're trying to get ahead a bit on production before selling those, as I would expect they will go pretty quickly based on what this community wants in a physical bitcoin. 

As I've said before, trusting us to provide that 2FA service seems to be a benefit for people just learning about bitcoins, as opposed to a drawback.  We've even had people that asked us to set up their wallet for them when they redeemed their coin.  I was HAPPY to do that, because it means that they're looking to spend some bitcoins and are now officially part of our community.  It also meant that they were trusting our company (and myself) implicitly.  I'm OK with that trust because I know i'm not going to abuse it, but I appreciate the fundamental reasons to avoid those situations.   

I like the idea of symmetric keys a lot!  The only drawback is that the loss of one of the keys makes the coin's unredeemable.  Perhaps that is an unavoidable consequence of 2-factor authentication, but this is the kind of dialogue that the community needs to keep going.  I'm confident that there is a long term solution and we're working on one now that we think will solve these problems.


 

this is a great idea.

if designed properly this could be a winner.

I LOVE the spirit of a coin "kit" and I think well be able to make that happen in the near future with what we're working on.  It's a more technical hurdle than we originally anticipated.  We released this version of the coins to help augment the investor dollars that we're using to innovate in this space.  

I honestly haven't found a good way to answer the question of "how do I know TitanBTC isn't keeping a copy of the private key".  A lot of people asked the same questions of Mike Caldwell early on and I think it will just take time for us to prove our competence and trustworthiness to the community.  

In short, the computers that generate those keys are offline.  We're using a DB of random numbers generated from an atmospheric noise variable, similar to what you'll get from random.org.  We purge the page files on the hard drives in those computers on a scheduled basis to make sure there's no lingering data signatures.  We think we've got a good method of clearing any temporary data from the cache on our printers, but I won't hesitate to say that the process can be improved and I welcome any input on how we could make it better.  I've reached out to Mike, but have yet to connect with him.  He may be thinking we're competition.  I hope not.

The bottom line is that I don't want to rush that period of "getting to know us" because its important that the community rejects bad ideas and scammers.  In fact, I really appreciate how fiercely this community defends it ideologies.  This thread was meant to help my team explore new ideas as we try to perfect the system for physical bitcoins once and for all.  Thank you sincerely for the feedback.

don't forget to destroy the drum roller ;D

I considered burning down our offices and relocating after each production run, but after running the cost-benefit analysis...we decided against it.

http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/18/I/25/486

"Current Money" =/= "Currency"
Do your own research.
"Current Money" is national, government-made coin.
Titan is not violating this arcane US anti-counterfeiting law any more than the Franklin Mint is.

You may go FUD yourself now.

you suck  beyond belief

Don't be mad just because information dispels fear.  Titan is looking to make something new, to be creative.
Your attempt to instill fear and stifle this creativity with nonsensical laws written in the 19th century that have only a handful of cases based on them is shameful.
I'm sure you were just seeking to inform and enlighten us all with this link, but it just has absolutely nothing to do with anything in this thread.

Do you make a career out of being wrong?

Bernard von Nothaus is not in jail.
He has never been in prison.
The misapplication of that law to his activities is not decided law.

The law exists.  It was written to prevent the gold miners in the California gold rush from making things that looked like government issued coins that were not properly adhering to the weights and measures, anti-counterfeiting.
It has absolutely nothing to do with either my, nor Nothaus nor Titan's activities, despite the nonsense put forward by the political prosecution of Nothaus for his support of Ron Paul.

Please keep up this line of nonsense.  People might care to learn the truth and I, for one, am happy to help them out.

you need to supply sources of all your claims

Or do I?  
I am perfectly OK with not convincing you of anything.  :)
People that seek the truth may find it easily.  
There are enough that already know.  If you are slower to learn than others, that is not my burden to bear, its yours.

In the mean time we are just bumping this thread.... bumpity bump bump

If our OP considers this all off-topic, am happy to take it elsewhere.

well with that response i'll just close this at the same point where we started:

you suck beyond belief

How much per coin price?

who test this coins in practic?
any feedbacks please

i interest this

Lol good laugh haha  :D

It's 1.45 BTC right now.  You can pay with fiat from our site.  http://www.titanbtc.com/product/titan-one/

I know of a few members on the forums that have bought and redeemed them.  Anyone want to share your experience?

I bought one. Received confirmation of shipment.  Waiting for delivery...

I appreciate a good debate. This IS pertinent to the field of physical bitcoins, so I'll chip in my two cents.  Hoepfully no one has hurt feelings here, as I'm sure the intention is to make the truth on this issue clear.

It looks like the crux of this section of U.S. law is aimed at the act of counterfeiting, either foreign or domestic currency.  The reference to foreign current money production appears to be aimed at complying with a set of global anti-counterfeiting laws.  Without that sort of clause on the books, it might be difficult for a country like China to prosecute someone in the U.S. who was counterfeiting yuan.  

However, the phrase "except as authorized by law" is vitally important.   There are a number of private mints in both the U.S. and China that produce national currency for other countries.  For example, I know for certain that the Phillipines outsources some of its currency production to a mint that operates in the U.S.  The point is that, it IS illegal to make currency in the U.S. UNLESS you're authorized to do so by the government that issues that currency.

The question then becomes, who authorizes the issuing of a decentralized currency that is not tied to any one government?  

I think, for the moment, the answer is "no one".

Thoughts?

If you are really worried about it.  There are a number of (very small) countries that will authorize it as a currency of their country for a small fee.  Then you are authorized to be making a national currency.  I've contemplated this route.  Many others have taken it, but I prefer to remain producing non-governmental private pieces at this time.

I am delighted when more folks enter "the business".  Especially folks with good ethics, and attention to quality.  I am happy to help where I can

AND, since you asked nicely....this advice cost quite a lot of legal time, so feel welcome to tip if you like.  It will go into my legal defense fund.  If "they" are going to be going after anyone, it will likely be me first and winning with a well funded defense will set a good precedent.

:

The origin of the prohibition against coin “of original design” is explained in the Annual
Report of the Director of the Mint for 1871, reprinted in the Annual Report of the Secretary of
the Treasury for 1871, Report on Finances #9 (p205-214). It provides (in brief) for the
punishment of any who make or pass counterfeit coins in any metal or alloy, in the resemblance
of those of the United States or of foreign countries; or who make or pass coins of "original
design" for the purpose of money. ... [G]reat quantities of original design were issued more than
thirty years ago... small pieces designated as “half dollars” and “quarter dollars,” with some
claim to be considered gold coins, as they really contain as much of that metal as is to be found
in common jewelry. The pieces which began to be issued in San Francisco, in 1859, and perhaps
have been coined more recently, may not have been ... pushed into circulation, but may rather
have served as playpieces or curiosities. However, they were sold at their pretended value, while
in fact the half dollar, weighing six grains on an average, and about 423-thousandths fine, was
worth eleven cents; the quarter dollar nearly in the same proportion, some pieces being actually
worth six cents. No doubt they have been imposed upon ignorant persons as real money. Their
shapes were various, some octagonal, some circular.

Case law more than a century old sustains this view:

In U.S. v Bogart, 9 Ben. 314, 24 F.Cas. 1185, 24 Int.Rev.Rec. 46, No. 14,617 (N.D.N.Y.
1878), the Court explained, “One of the Rules applicable to the offence of counterfeiting is, that
the resemblance of the spurious to the genuine coin must be such as that it might deceive a
person using ordinary caution, and a conviction cannot be had for uttering pieces of metal which
are not in the likeness or similitude of genuine coins.” (California gold).1
(These pieces deceive no one).

Another case, U.S. v Hopkins, 26 Fed. 443 (D.C. 1885), supplemented this by saying
“counterfeit coin is one made in imitation of some genuine coin. It is not necessary that the
resemblance should be exact in all respects. The resemblance is sufficient if the coins are so far
alike that the counterfeit coin is calculated to deceive a person exercising ordinary caution and
observation in the usual transactions of business, though the counterfeit would not deceive a
person who was expert or has particular experience in such matters. This rule has been more fully
applied in cases of written or printed instruments which are used in ordinary business
transactions, as prudent men are presumed to exercise reasonable caution in accepting
instruments which are evidences of contracts and obligations.” Id., at 443-444. (Emphasis
added).
(They don’t look like an American coin; don’t have the feel of an American coin and
don’t act as a coin does either on first use, or subsequent use).

And in yet another case, U.S. v Hargrave, 26 F.Cas. 164 (D.C. N.D. Ohio 1872), the
indictment contained seven counts, four of which were framed under the act of March 3, 1825 (4
Stat. 121), and three under the act of June 8, 1864 (13 Stat. 120). The main question was whether
the spurious coin in question came under either act. “It was claimed by the prosecution that it
came under both, that is: First, that it was in the similitude of the genuine coin; second, that if
considered of ‘original design,’ it was within the later act above cited; and, third, that the
question was, not whether it would deceive a person of ordinary skill and caution, but whether it was capable of, and designed to be used for deceiving the incautious and unskillful”. These (a) deceived no one; (b) would not deceive the incautious or unskillful, and (c) would not deceive a person of ordinary skill and caution.

I'm happy to tip for that work.  Was there any case history from the 20th or 21st century? 

Thanks for anything you can offer, I'll probably just end up sending it back to you to get one of your pieces.

There have only been a handful of cases decided on this, most were 19th century.

In the 20th Century there were:

U.S. v. Gellman, 44 F.Supp. 360 (D.C.Minn., 1942) - innocent
U.S. v. Yeatts, 639 F.2d 1186 (C.A.Ga., 1981) - guilty
U.S. v. Falvey, 676 F.2d 871 (C.A.Me., 1982) - innocent

In the 21st there is the von NotHaus case, which is not yet case law (the case is still pending, it has not yet been concluded, nor has it been evaluated for appeal).  I am confidant that von Nothaus will be found innocent as well, though his life/career has more or less been ended by the last half decade of this malicious prosecution.  His project, which began as a philanthropic effort to free money from its shackles and which effort inspired others to follow in his footsteps (including Bitcoin's wise founder) has been thwarted by this misapplication of the law and its heavy hand.

Some of the facts of the cases:

The closes set of facts to ours yielded a positive result for us:
The only case in which an individual who issued his own private currency was ever
directly charged under 18 USC 486 was U.S. v. Bogart. In Bogart, the court made
examination of the legislative intent of the Act of June 8, 1864. The Bogart court
determined that the Act was simply a counterfeiting law that prohibited private coins that
closely resembled circulating United States currency and could mislead the public (even
if such designs were original, but still misleading). Further, the Bogart court specifically
determined that a person who simply issued a private precious metal currency could not
be charged with counterfeiting under the Act of June 8, 1864, and that the Act did not
establish the new, previously unknown crime of issuing private currency.

Gellman is not very applicable and is not much precedent:
The Gellman court mentions 18 USC 486, noting that it bans the issuance of private
currency "as current money". Falvey later cites Gellman on this point. However, the
Gellman observation is really only dicta (not a matter of the decision), as the court noted that the statute was not
applicable to Gellman's alleged crime (selling slugs that could operate vending
machines). The Gellman court's discussion of 18 USC 486 involved no investigation of
the statute's legislative intent, and appears to be a simple quick reading by the court.
Gellman does not reference the prior U.S. v. Bogart, which directly contradicts Gellman
on this matter, on this matter (although, ironically, the Gellman court cites Bogart on an
unrelated matter).

This is also widely divergent set of facts, but still interesting and cites this law:
U.S. v. Yeatts involved a 1981 case where a counterfeiter, charged with attempting to
pass fraudulent historic United States gold coins, maintained that the coins were not
current money, and thus no longer fell within the purview of 18 USC 485, the sister law
to 18 USC 486. Using somewhat dubious Constitutional reasoning, the appeals court held
that, even though the coins were not current money, the law was still applicable under the
Constitution's "necessary and proper clause". Yeatts references 18 USC 486 only to note
that it defines a parallel offense to that defined in 18 USC 485 and one law did not repeal
the other.

Falvey is important with regards to legislative intent which favors us strongly:
U.S. v. Falvey looked extensively at 18 USC 486's sister law 18 USC 485. The Falvey
ruling established the important and frequently cited doctrine that a court may use
evidence of legislative history to govern a statute's reading - even if the statute's current
literal reading would be different without the legislative evidence absence. Even in the
absence of the Bogart ruling, the Falvey decision would provide direct support for using
the legislative testimony from the Act of June 8, 1964's passage to show its intent as a
simple counterfeiting law.

I also have a LOT of background on the legislative intent of this law, and its many minor modifications over the years.  If it ever comes down to you needing some expert witness, I have some experience with that as well.  We are all in this together.

As it says on the obverse crown of the Bitcoin Specie piece "VERITAS VOS LIBRABIT": the truth will set you free.

I just bought as well.  The price is far less than an hour of Lawyer time.  :)

Well, I think I got the better end of this deal.  That's very valuable info. 

I'll definitely be hiring YOU if I have to defend our business model.

Couple of questions, forgive me if they are answered but I can't see it:

2. Can the ownership of the physical [Edit: two factor] bitcoins be transferred from owner to owner without needing to redeem the coin? I.e. can I sell my Titan Bitcoins on in a few years time to another owner?

3. Is there a list of which coins from the current batch(es) are in circulation? You've sold some on eBay but I was curious about how many have now sold...

Between private sales and public ones, we have sent around 210 coins out the door.  Many of the early coins went to investors that asked me to put them up on eBay (they wanted a quick exit and doubled their money by doing so).  The pace of sales looks like it will be speeding up quickly though, as we roll out promotions on other sites and in a few local stores.  I don't expect that the production run of 10,000 will last through the end of the year.

We don't currently publish a public list of the coins in circulation, but I'll look into setting that up.

Update: Coins with private keys included (like Casascius) are now available as an option on the website.  For those that ordered them via PM, your orders are shipping out today or tomorrow morning.

http://www.titanbtc.com/product/titan-one/

I don't recommend these if you intend to resell due to the ease of counterfeiting/hacking, but to each his own.

UPDATE:  For those paying in bitcoins directly, the price has dropped to 1.39 BTC

Thanks

Received my Titan Coin today. Very nice.

The coin is about 3.3 cm in diameter so it looks a bit smaller then in the photo.

(The Casascius silver bitcoin is about 3.8mc in diameter)

Came in a small priority mail box with a "Certificate of Authenticity" and Instructions on how to "activate" the coin.

I was able to scan the qr code on the back of the coin with my mobile.

On the web-form I had to enter:
Delivery Confirmation Code received on the letter with the coin.
Email confirmation Number received in the email they sent with shipping notification
Entered My Email
Entered My password

When I submitted the form I received an email to a link to verify the registration and fund the coin.

The coin also came in a little black pouch.
Nice Job Titain.

https://i.imgur.com/25OtLjK.jpg

Very professional looking.

@TitanBTC,

I noticed in the COA that the field for the # coin is left black (out of 10,000). Was that on purpose or do you plan to number each coin? Just curious.

Aloha!  :)

How about Bitcoin stickers?

Smoothie,  I redacted it that.

Ohh I did not notice. My mistake.

I only hope it is never necessary.

Will work for bitcoin, justice, and liberty.

Wait it's easy to fake the hologram or peel it and restick?  Is that what you're saying?  I'm confused.  The casascius coins, to my knowledge, are pretty good at preventing that sort of thing.  I might buy a few just for fun - thanks!

Also, what does the hologram for the PK ones look like?  Is it the same?

http://codinginmysleep.com/casascius-physical-bitcoins-cracked-at-defcon/

Very interesting - thanks for the link!  Perhaps this has already been addressed, but do the Titan coins not have these issues, or is 2-factor their main solution to this?

Two factor authentication of some type is the ONLY solution to the problem of sticker hacking in my opinion. 

We can do better in terms of protecting the hologram from hacking (and I think some members of the community are working on that) but in my opinion, even if you believe the sticker is secure and un-hackable, a hologram isn't that difficult to counterfeit anymore.  You just can't know for sure if a "private key included" coin holds its value until you sweep that value into a wallet (unless you assembled the coin yourself and it has never left your sight).

We're working towards a decentralized 2FA system that tracks the coin's current owner and doesn't require a central database.  I'd love to hear other ideas on creative ways to leverage the network for 2FA.

The hologram for the PK coins looks the same, yes.  The next round of holograms we buy will have the first bits as the COIN ID number as well.

Are you thinking of a sticker that has a private key built in, or something more high tech like an NFC chip?  I'm interested.

Cool unboxing!  I'll have our customer service dept. send you something as a thank you.

BCB, would you mind posting a pic of the back of the coin?  thanks.

The problem with the current implementation of physical bitcoins is that they are really wallets (or a way to access a wallet) in a pretty package. In other words, while they are a great way to introduce people to the concept, they don't add much value. If I transfer the bitcoin from my physical coin to my smartphone wallet, I still have the same value in my wallet, but now I have a gold (colored) coin that looks pretty, but doesn't have much in it.

I was thinking about an alternative, and I went back to the idea of bitcoin being analogous to gold (except that you can't melt it down). So instead of coin, how about paper? When banks where first created, the bankers held gold for their customers, and issued gold certificates. These certificates could be redeemed at any time at the bank for real gold, so (assuming the bank is dependable) they were used for exchange, and thus paper money was created.

Since we're talking about different levels here, let's take the original banking concept and substitute bitcoin for gold, and (metal) coin for paper. Now let's create the "Bank of Bitcoin", and have it issue (metal) coins in various denomination (1 BTC, 0.25 BTC, 0.1 BTC, .05 BTC, .01 BTC, etc.) The metal coins would not have a Bitcoin address associated with them, but could be redeemed at a bank branch for bitcoin. Or, they could be used to buy things from others without having to have access to a device.

The problems with this idea are that the Bank of Bitcoin would have to develop trust that these coins will always be redeemable. It would also have to adhere to banking regulations. For these reasons it would probably have to start as a subsidiary of an established bank.

On second thought, I don't think the Bitcoin community is ready for this.  :(

UPDATE:  I think I forgot to mention on the forum that "private key included" coins are now available on the website.  There's a dropdown on the product page to select which version you want.  

http://www.titanbtc.com/product/titan-one/

Great feedback.  I think paper physical bitcoins are great, and I don't think they've been done right yet.  There are ways for the bitcoin network itself to serve as the "central bank of bitcoin" and that's basically what I'm working on.  Using the blockchain to handle physical to digital exchange/ redemption addresses a lot of problems. I'd love to hear more ideas from people that KNOW the bitcoin protocol inside and out on how we can make that happen.

thanks for the option.

i don't think it will be as great a problem as you think.  for sales.

Nice design.

You're right.  The private key offering isn't really a "sales" ploy.  I rolled it out mainly because this forum asked for it.  It's a pretty trivial addition to our manufacturing process to do it, so I don't mind.  Outside of the bitcoin community, people seem to prefer the 2-factor authentication version.

Here you go. There was a QR code I removed that linked to the titian site for activation as well as more digits to the coin id code (not short bits).

https://i.imgur.com/01EZlEX.png

cypherdoc

These are nice too  :)

https://i.imgur.com/WazQKKc.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/yEtcpdI.jpg

that's a beautiful coin.  why did you remove the QR code?  did you get one with a privkey underneath or did you go with website activation?

yep, cybrbeasts!

I'm curious; and not going off topic too much, would you be able to explain what each of the coins pictured are and if they use any authentication?

Tim,

    Are the QR codes printed on the outside of the coin hologram? (As opposed to being under the tamper-proof hologram).

    I have not registered my coins yet but from what I understand the QR code is required to transfer registration?  So it would be best to keep this secret?

The QR code is the titian coin internal identifier so (evidently) only they know what coin (and priv/pub key) that qrcode and code underneath links to.

they're merely tokens and have no BTC loaded.

We limit the exposure of the QR codes ourselves but mainly for the sake of customers.  The QR code is thermally printed into one of the hologram layers.  You DO need to know the coin ID in order to register it or transfer registration, but the QR code will take you to the same page as you will see by entering in the coin ID on the verify page on our website.  The combination of coin ID + registration email + password is required to transfer coin registration, so as long as one of those 3 is secure, you shouldn't have to worry.

If you're reselling the coin, we recommend you DO show the buyer either the QR code or the Coin ID so that they can see that the coin is currently funded and authentic.

That's pretty much right on.
 
The address associated with the outputs of each coin funding transaction is shown on the Coin ID page.  If you look at it in the blockchain, you'll see the transaction and when the coin was funded.  Currently, we don't include the public key on the Coin ID page, but I would consider doing so if the community think that has value.

You're right that the QR-codes and redemption codes are linked internally to our wallet system.  The private keys are encrypted and kept in cold storage until a user redeems a coin.  We just look up the address (the same one you see on the Coin ID page) and execute a raw transaction to send a coin from that address.  The raw transactions are signed (using the private key recovered from cold storage) in an offline system and then brought back online to broadcast.  

Great news. I like the idea of removing a company from cashing my BTC out. I do like the security that adds, but the fully "decentralized" approach is a nice option.

Appreciated - You listened to customers,
IAS

Love them.  Will deffo buy some for my next meet up.

Thank you for saying thank you.  I think the ultimate form of physical BTC will be one that the network can track ownership of.  We're working on it, but in the meantime, you guys should get what you want.

Awesome.  I've had some great feedback from people just learning about bitcoin.  It's a great tool to bring new users to the community.  I definitely think that physical bitcoins are a gateway to full-blown mainstream adoption.

If you'll do some photo documentation of the meetup, I'll cut you you a discount.  Email me at tim@titanbtc.com to make it happen.

Cheers, will do.

Guys and gals, let me know if there is a physical bitcoin out there that will fit inside the compartment for the handmade silver bitcoin bracelet I created for the San Jose conference last Spring.

Here is the bracelet. Only ten were made and I have never made jewelry before so the cost was no joke but they are pretty unique.The coin would have to be 0.75 inches by 0.75 inches or smaller to fit.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=321237369738&ssPageName=ADME:L:LCA:US:1123

Seriously though , if there are any coins that would fit in the compartment it could make for some fun, and potential co-branding if I ever get around to making more of these!

If you want to manage production costs, there are some very good jewelry factories I work with.
One in Burbank that does my electroplating is really good.

They can produce at high quality and at low price.
Next time we chat, remind me.

just got mine.

what a brilliant design.   very happy.

can't wait for the gold and silver versions of this same design.

congratulations.

For sure.. I have a sneaking suspicion that both your species and these bracelets will be worth a lot more in fiat terms in 20-30 years. I mean as initial art specimens derived from what could become a new money standard, I'm excited having both. All I need is some Casascius coins to round out my collection.

BTW, I would like to purchase some of the regular silver species from you before my overseas trip in December so I can give to friends in Europe and spread the word re. bitcoin, and also would like to buy maybe two or three more of the satoshi white paper species as gifts. I am out of town for a bit Tuesday (and I recall your saying no more 5 year satoshi species after October), so we ought to either meet up and consummate the deal or maybe agree to set some aside pending my return (probably Friday November 1st) if you're amenable.

All good, I expect to be here all week.

That's one handsome coin.

Quick update and an apology

I just wanted to apologize to anyone that made a purchase on our site this morning that was subsequently cancelled.  One of developers updated the code to our website late last night (2:00 am here in California) while the rest of us were sleeping.  It wasn't until this morning that we realized he had enabled an automatic pricing feature that wasn't fully tested yet.  As a result, we were offering to sell bitcoins at a loss this morning for about 4 hours.

I would love to have fulfilled those orders, and it would have been a customer service win of the first order, but it also would have meant that we took a loss of about $2,000.  Honestly it was a tough choice, and our customer service rep really resisted when I told her that we would have to cancel those orders.  I hope the members of this community can sympathize with the challenges of pricing our products in dollars, in an environment where the selling price of bitcoins varies by as much as $100 depending on where you buy. 

We're interested in making things right with our customers, so feel free to shoot me a PM if you got stung by this error on our part and I'll happily send you a discount code for future purchases.   

Thanks

Ouch.

That's not a very fortunate occurrence.

However, you might have done well to have left out your hypothetical loss priced in dollars....

For example, now I know that $2000 is worth more to you than having, as you put it, "a customer service win of the highest order".

You would rather NOT sell at a loss (when the mistake was clearly on your end... similar to a store advertising a price, and then at the check-out register, the price is raised or the order canceled), than please your customers.

Your customers didn't ask for you to mis-price your items, and they did not ask to have their orders cancelled.

You were willing to turn them off to your business for $2000.


I'm not meaning to come in your thread and talk ill of your company, but the fact that you stated that if you hadn't canceled the orders, that you would have lost $2000, tells me how much (like, actual dollar figure) you value customer service. Had you left that amount out of your post, I might have supposed that your hypothetical loss would have been much higher, and thus perhaps I would have been more accepting of your treatment of your (would-be) customers.

I appreciate your point.  

Anyone who has bought from us knows that we are extremely responsive with customer service.  Deciding when to take a loss on a sale is always a tough call.  We started the business with the goal of bringing more people into the bitcoin community and that's still my main goal, but I can't pay for the people that make our customer service great if we're not making a profit.

Honestly, we may need to stop allowing customers to pay in dollars until we build our own exchange.  We're the only game in town at the moment selling physical bitcoins for fiat.  We have to have massive amounts of cash on the exchanges in order to buy BTC in real time as orders come in.  Its a lot of liability and maybe it's not worth it at this time.

I'm listening though.  You're not the only voice on the side of the customers and we're looking into honoring those orders that were payed for and later refunded.

I have been a customer of TitanBTC since they were selling for $250. I think ive bought about 12 so far. I have to say their customer service is A1 in my book. I admit I did try to make a purchase for 2 coins this morning (I just got paid) I saw their price was weird like 386.75 or something (usually its whole dollars) the transaction did not work, Anyhow I appreciate the communication and I am a fan of TitanBTC and will continue to be, in the future.

Steven

P.S. Not that you guys are obligated in my book but if you feel like shooting a discount code my way thats A OK in my book :) Thanks Tim and all the others you guys rock!

Thanks Steven.  Customer service will be happy to give you some chunky discount codes to compensate for that problem this morning.  I'll have them email you shortly.

Maybe this upcoming feature will help? You will be able to send an 80 byte message with a transaction and it will be stored in the blockchain.

https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2738

I agree. 

I think the "Relay OP_RETURN data TxOut" feature addition to the next official protocol update will be a much better solution than the current hacks that are in use by Colored coins et al.

Still looking for members for our dev team for this project, so please PM me if you'd like to get your hands dirty building a custom bitcoin client that makes use of this latest feature edition.  This is not a request for volunteer labor.

Hi Titan,

Would it be possible to have an alternate pricing structure? Something like send 1 BTC to some address and pay in dollars for the premium? I'd imagine the price of producing the coins don't change that much from a dollar perspective, it's the BTC that's the hard part.

That's not a bad idea.

Right now, we're trying to make it as simple as possible to purchase our coins.  Most of our customers right now are either new to bitcoin or don't have a convenient way to invest in bitcoin.  For those that do already own BTC, it's fairly easy to pay with bitcoins at checkout now.  However, separating the two transactions (the coin funding and the coin purchasing) is something we actually considered early on for legal reasons which is why I agree that it's a viable option. 

I'd love to offer self funded coins as an option in the future.  Especially when we release some of the lower cost physical bitcoin items.

   

Hey Titan, just got an email saying my coins are on their way! :D

I just wanted to ask, when you will be opening up for more orders again/ when the Titan One will be back in stock?

Thanks

We'll have coins available for sale this week. 

Check back later this week.  If the new merchant accounts aren't fully setup yet, we'll at least be offering coins for sale via other methods of payment like check, wire transfer and BTC.  The recent price increases and the fact that our coins are attracting some more mainstream interest are good news, but it means that our cash reserves on the exchanges don't last nearly as long as they need to.  We're implementing some solutions to make sure we can source BTC in higher quantities. 

Hello TitanBTC,

Question since were only in the 300's of 10,000 minted. what will you do in 2014 ? Sell the 2013 minted stock until all 10k are gone or mint 2014 coins? Im curious how this works.

We're planning to decommission the dies from the current production run and move to the 2014 designs in late spring or early summer of 2014.

We will probably sell off the complete 2013 production runs before that time.  Either way, we'll have a page on the website that documents the number of each design that was sold before it was retired.

when are the gold and silver coins coming! :D

Hey all, just wanted to share some photos of what to expect when you get your coins.

Everything was nicely packed, the coins were in their clear plastic airtight cases, each in their own small black drawstring bag, then rolled up in a bubble mailer. Also included is an envelope containing your certificates of authenticity.

All this was put securely in a small flat-rate USPS box.

Here are the photos:

http://postimg.org/gallery/2j9gm1d0/ebbdefb6/ (http://postimg.org/gallery/2j9gm1d0/ebbdefb6/)

I love these. But does one know that the physical coin reflects a real digital value?.... wauw its the otherway around now!

Silver coins are arriving shortly and they're pristine.  They will be available for purchase on the site Nov. 30th.  Because of the U.S. holiday, the first coins will ship out December 3rd or 4th. 

The gold coins are in process as well, but its a slow process and we want to make sure they meet all the criteria that collectors are looking for in verified rare coins.  I'll post updates here when we have a firm delivery window.

Thanks for the pics!  Glad everything arrived safely.

The easiest way to verify the value is to either scan the back of the coin with a smart phone (a bar code app is required), or visit titanbtc.com/verify and type in the 8-digit coin ID number.  You can click on the bitcoin address shown on that page to verify that the coin is funded and get details on the funding transaction. 

My coin arrived and it looks great Titan.

Just a question, or rather suggestion.
The coins ship with the delivery confirmation number. My envelope was sitting in my mailbox (which is ok, pretty safe - locked).
But, if someone did get their hands on the coin, they have the confirmation number and my name, so they could easily get it loaded.

So considering the potentially huge future prices of BTC, might it not be better to use a simple form of 2FA? For example, the email used to order the coin gets a verification email sent and from there the paper delivery confirmation number is typed and sent back. No email on the paper in other words (or a different email to catch the thief should they try. They alert you.   ;D)

Thanks for bringing some coins to market (with the private keys) that are available direct and not just from resellers.

IAS

Wouldnt they need access to your email account to actually send the confirmation number from? Thats how I do it. Not sure if TitanBTC requires that although.

The letter included an email for contacting Titan to fund your coins. Now, of course Titan could check that email with the one you used to purchase your coins but I don't know that they do, for people often order things with one email and have other emails for different uses. The best thing imo would be a simple form of 2FA as mentioned above. I'd like to see what TitanBTC says about this for clearly that company listens to customers (e.g. adding the private key coin). I trust in what they do and my suggestion is just that, with a bit of question thrown in.  ;)

Thanks for the suggestion. 

We do actually match up the email addresses to verify that that the delivery confirmation number is coming from a known address associated with the customer. 

Even though we apparently don't make it very clear, there has only been one instance in which a delivery code came back from a different address and we had to ask the customer to reply from their previous address.   A delivery confirmation interface is a great idea and we've been working on implementing something similar, just to better automate the process.  In the meantime, I'll definitely have that packing slip revised to make it clearer that we're asking customers to reply to our "Your order has shipped" email when they confirm receipt.

Hey Titan, it appears your website is down. Maybe I just caught you at a bad time (Updating something?).

Anyways, I was just wondering if you had an update for us.

Sorry about the downtime.  We're working on it.

We've got coins back in stock, but we are still working to resolve the payment processing on the website.  If you'd like to pay with BTC, shoot me a PM and I'll put the order through for you manually.

when will be new available?

Make a Silver coin with a Private key on one side.
The coin is worth the Silver, plus whatever BTC, is attached to the Private  key.
Make it something small like. 0.00001 BTC.
One day it may exceed the price of the silver coin.
currently its value would be the Silver but as the Value of BTC increases.

Hi TitanBTC,

Is there a way you can take dual payment methods for example. I send you 1 BTC to fund the coin and pay X $ (via Paypal) to cover your cost and profits and all that. I figured It would be easier with a volatile market if you just sold some at a fixed rate with the option for a customer to fund a coin with their own BTC.

By the way I would like a few Silver Coins as well and def a 10BTC coin (IF) I could fund it with my private stash of BTC and pay the rest in USD.


Steven

Got my Silver Edition Titan Bitcoin yesterday! Nice

http://s27.postimg.org/r3nwnddlb/unnamed.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/r3nwnddlb/)

And heres another pic next to the original Goldine ones.

http://s13.postimg.org/4kmf6wpz7/unnamed.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/4kmf6wpz7/)

Hope your not in the US if you are you should be recieving your Fincen cease and desist letter shortly.

Think you could have said that better, Merry Christmas to you, expect your bank to shut down your account for trading crypto  ;)

We won't be receiving any letters from FinCEN because we're already registered with them. 

Thank you for your concern though.  It's a complex area because the laws are likely to change shortly in order to adapt to the growing bitcoin economy.

We'll be complying with whatever is required for us to sell to customers in the U.S. and abroad.

1. Physical bitcoins should be durable to be change hands daily as a currency and a hologram isn't.

2. Physical bitcoins should not rely on a database that can be destroyed.

I devise my solution starting with an observation.

There is no need for the private key to be recoverable, only verifiable! If I need a Bitcoin private key, I can exchange the physical coin for another addresses where I know the private key.

Now can we devise something from that observation?

For example, could we place a signing circuit embedded in the coin that can be accessed electromagnetically?

Then we need a change to the blockchain to enable addresses to be declared unspendable.

I also hope we can make Bitcoins from sterling silver possibly Argentium. It is silly to make copper-nickel coins at the 1 BTC price. Copper-nickel should be for small change. Also copper-nickel is highly volatile in price especially if we go to war.

Hey who says we can't have anonymity like we do now with cash? Porc?

Some other process rather than minting would be indicated for that.  A few hundred tons of instantaneous pressure plasticizes and anneals the metal pressing it into hardened shape but does bad things to electronics.

Some post minting process might work.  We struggled with this for quite a while before settling on the QR code for valuation rather than embedding crypto and serializing the pieces.  Any ideas?

How about a coin with an integrated NFC chip? So you can check the balance with a phone, or NFC device, and send money from it as well.

We'd considered and dismissed that as well.
If one of the goals of using a coin is to have it be transferable with simplicity, is this goal is sacrificed with such a scenario?  (Presumably it would have to be protected from folks sitting next to you on a bus so some second device would be needed to control it, which would require changing that control device to execute a transfer)

they look nice, good work and good luck (because of fucking US laws)

setup bitcoin satellites have coins that mine themselves wirelessly more value as time goes by  :D

This is EXACTLY how we feel.  Seriously, we've been working on a solution for a while and that checks these boxes.  The currency needs to be durable and convertable into fungible BTC without relying on any central point.

Durability is an issue, but can be a "hardware" problem.  We'll solve it with materials selection or similar.

Convertibility without relying a central database that tracks ownership probably needs to rely on blockchain info.  The protocol has the capabilities.  We're working on building a custom client (interviewing another programmer this morning hopefully) that will allow redemption and ownership tracking to be done by the blockchain seamlessly.

ON material choice...The cost of the currency production will ALWAYS be a factor.  Ideally I want physical bitcoins that look good but are also obtainable for an extremely low premium over spot value.  There's always room for dual value coins/currency that are minted from precious metals, but less expensive physical currency will have more utility in my opinion. 

Great ideas, Anonymint.  Seriously.

We're OK jumping through hoops to work with U.S. laws.  FinCEN is an agency whose main purpose is to limit organized crime activity.  I'm not saying they are GOOD necessarily, but there is a kernel in good in their charter.

Laws are always framed in the their own historical context.  The radical innovation of peer-to-peer money transfer that bitcoin represents is a brand new historical context.  Laws need to be changed to adapt to this new environment. 

I'm not angry that the laws are outdated, so much as eager to see them revised.  To each his own, though.




 

 

love it.

I've got a Raspberry Pi sitting on my desk that I purchased for the express purpose of trying out some distributed autonomous mining schemes. (though not for mining bitcoins...cause ASIC)

I looked into embedding an RFID loop, but I doubt it would survive the minting process. Extremely finely tuned magnetic signatures could work, but its impractical at the minting stage and would need a very sensitive magnetic "reader".  I think this HAS to be done as a post minting process myself, but I like the way you're doing things as well.

By the way, Great talk in Vegas, J.  I was hoping to get a chance to shake hands, but time was tight.  Next time, hopefully.

Place it in clear resin in a chamber post-minting? Means we need to validate the coin more frequently.

Or could we fuse two halves by serrating the edge as a separate process?

Or could we press the edges of two fused halves as a second process, so total heat is minimized and isolated to the edge with the electronics toward the center of the coin perhaps with  tungsten diselenide thermal insulation (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/12/061215091011.htm)? Tungsten has high electromagnetic permittivity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tungsten#Electronics).

Conceptually I love the notion of a high tech electronics, materials, and cryptographic coin. Even would have firmware. We change what coinage is, move to the next level of technological advancement.

Perhaps the firmware would allow setting the private key remotely (by the user) once and only once. Perhaps we could have some cryptographic method of insuring the loaded private key has been set to unspendable on the block chain. I haven't thought this through.

P.S. Love the coin designs. Great work.

In case anyone missed it, here's a cross post from the marketplace regarding our Silver coins:

The Titan One Silver coins are now available. Production is limited to 1,000 coins for the 2013 edition. These are "proof-grade" in their quality, and have a mirror finish in the polished areas.  They're minted from 1 troy ounce of .999 pure silver (31.1 grams).  

Read more at https://www.titanbtc.com/product/titan-one-silver/


Just a reminder, these are available in 2 versions:

"2-factor Authenticated" (Each coin is registered to an email address, which can be changed at anytime.  Access to the email is required to redeem)

-OR-

"Private Key included" (Just like Casascius coins, the only copy of the 30-digit private key is included underneath the hologram)


https://www.titanbtc.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/Titan_One_Silver_Front_800WM.jpg

https://www.titanbtc.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/Titan_One_Silver_Back_800WM.jpg

https://www.titanbtc.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/Comparison_800sq_WM.jpg


Credit card payments will be available next week on our site.

Lastly, Thanks for the warm welcome in Vegas this week, guys.  The 1 oz gold versions of this coin will be available soon.  If anyone wants to PM with pre-orders for the gold coins, that will help us gauge how much bullion to buy for the full production run.

Cool stuff. I would prefer prices to quoted as margin on top of bitcoin price.

Interesting discussion also. Has anyone investigated the possibility of combining physical coins with fingerprints or other personal markers?

Can I buy one of these even if it is a prototype? If I can send me your email address or what not.

That could be interesting, sort of a coin-in-amber type thing.
The tungsten idea also seems fun.
It would however be a serious engineering operation to automate either of these processes for production.
One of the ways we keep costs low and production high is by using standard equipment and processes that are already existing.  To get to even relatively small quantities of 50000 per year with these techniques would be a fair bit of engineering, whereas with standard minting, 50000 per week is fairly routine.
The road from idea to market is fraught with issues.

1,000 good luck silver is only $22.00 an ounce.

I think you need to learn how to read.

? The price on the site says 1000 dollars for one what else do I need to read?

The market is huge. The first mover will become extremely wealthy.

It doesn't hurt and probably helps to build market share with existing equipment and holograph embedded keys for the time being while developing the real solution as quickly as possible.

I hope the Chinese are reading this thread (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=365141.msg3968570#msg3968570).

Hi,

Im interested to buy, hoping for coupon code.

When will you accept credit card?

TIA,

Mike

I can't stop laughing. Its such an obvious thing once I mention it you're going to feel silly.

The coin is for 1 BTC. That means there is 1BTC IN THE COIN. So it's the price of Silver, PLUS the price of the bitcoin.

Of course, Bitcoin is far below $1000 right now, but, still. More then $22. :-)

I disagree on this point.

Scenario. Person A gives a coin that says 0.01B to Person B.
Person B transfers the content off of the coin, the coin is now worth 0B.
Person B gives the empty coin to Person C who mistakingly thinks it is worth 0.01B because that is what the coin SAYS.

If person C has the tools needed to verify the value of the coin (a cell phone with the right software) then he has the tools to perform a direct software transfer. And in fact such a transfer would be easier!

The only possible way for a coin to be worthwhile is the coin itself has a value. This means either a government declaring it fiat, or it is made out of precious metal (ex, gold). However putting a 1B logo on your gold coin is misinforming and disingenuous because the gold to bitcoin conversion ratio fluctuates

PS. The coin in question is 1BTC... thats a 1000$ coin. I can't just hand those out to people like the OP describe nor can I buy something with it.

Or as I proposed upthread, embedding the radio verifiable private key and marking it unspendable on the block chain (altcoins can support this feature, then Bitcoin will implement it) as I have suggested upthread. Then the coin tracks the BTC value and is reliable.

I wish someone would get serious about my suggestion.

Note no need to embed a battery, supply power to the embedded circuit via radio.

Not everyone needs to verify each coin, because the private key is unspendable.

Well, yes, and it is implied by my attack on the principle of the ability to electronically drain the physical coin of the bitcoins.

But I am seeing a plethora of technical issues with such a solution. What happens when the coin breaks? Can you backup the coins the way you do other wallets? Wouldn't backups mean counterfeiting? How could you prevent someone from stealing such a coin by reading the data and then making a duplicate? etc

Let me ask you something. Do we have anything other than our computers that physically represents the internet that people can hold onto? No. Yet even though when the internet was new people eventually adapted to it, the same thing will happen to bitcoin as it becomes widely used, everyone already has the tools to use; their smartphone, now they just have to take the next step if they choose to...

We've been "serious about your suggestion" long before you posted it.  :)
The engineering and social challenges are not insignificant.

There are finite bitcoin.
To accomplish this you either need perfect durability (unfeasible) or the ability to duplicate while maintaining uniqueness (so that a worn/destroyed piece can be recreated).  Otherwise there is loss resulting in unnecessary deflation.
There are also social consequences to accomplishing that with various solutions in consideration.

Some ideas floated among the bitcoin specie team:
Unspendable private keys could expire (and need to be recreated prior to expiry), for a functional perfect durability.  
Un-recreated private keys could be added to extend block rewards (in an alt-coin).
The mechanism for this could be a block chain registry of physical-bitcoin unspendable private keys (think namecoin).

How much per coin price?
who test this coins in practic?

they have a website. the website has prices. it also has a FAQ.

PS: why are the coins priced in $? This doesnt make much sense wince the $/BTC price does not always reflect in the $ price of a TitanBTC coin. for example:

at roughly 8am EST on the 19th: 1.06 BTC per brass coin
at roughly 8pm EST on the 19th: 1.18 BTC per brass coin
at 11:30 EST : 1.15BTC each

ps: i bought one at 8am ;D

Why TitanBTC you are so possessive for cryptocurrencies especially bitcoin? You are willing to pour your valuable resources and efforts on the bitcoins who might crash someday although it may even rise further. But risking your wealth in the light above mentioned advantages of bitcoin really not worth if bitcoins crash infinitely.

Bullshit, they record the private key

If you are based in CA, are you registering as a money transmitter, following CASASCIUS decision to stop minting coins because of regulatory issues?

Us of a

Most of them.
In what country it isn't?

Link a law?

Counterfeiting is illegal, but no one is contemplating doing that.

Who said anything about counterfeiting?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_Dollar#Legal_issues

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/486

Making an original design coin that DOES NOT resemble any existing coin is a crime in the USA which carries the senteance of 5 years in prison and a fine (and historically, total seizure of assets). I am pretty sure its a crime everywhere else.

Yes the key should expire and the person holding the coin at that time should be able to prove it by having the coin sign a transaction to transfer it to a new private key, which would be a new manufactured coin. This could be done any time after expiration on the public ledger block chain (the signing circuitry in the coin wouldn't stop functioning at expiry).

Physically it is going to be possible for someone to recover that private key I presume with considerable effort, so the denominations should be low enough that it is not worth the effort to do so. Maybe not an easy problem to solve.

P.S. Bitcoin won't survive without adding perpetual debasement. And an altcoin will overtake it if it doesn't. The reasons are explained in my November and December posts. I don't have time to re-summarize.

Bitcoin has perpetual debasement, it is however, deeply under the investment growth rate.

going to physical coins, must be remarkable

As you know, it is declining asymptotically to zero, and will be annually <1% by 2032 and <0.2% by 2040.

We agree on this.

So the issue is with the rate of debasement, rather than the absence of it?

Money that is not debased at about 5% per annum can not be the currency due to Gresham's Law. I ran the data since 1800s, and 5% to be seems about what society requires.

Without debasement, the rich end up owning everything. Society will not tolerate that, thus a looser form of currency always wins.

I'd like to see that data source, that percentage seems pretty high.
The conclusion also seems to be a leap of logic as debasement itself is a transfer of wealth from the poor to the rich.

how does one redeem your bitcoins if your website for whatever reason goes down?
how am i supposed to get the btc out of my coins if your site goes down or you go out of business?

That is
1) a counterfeiting case
2) not settled law
3) not a precedent in this matter
4) jury decided incorrectly (not all elements of the crimes alleged were presented in evidence)

This was already addressed in this thread, at length.
Check page 4.

You can select "private key" version if you can trust they destroy the private key after they fund your coin once you receive it in the mail.

Technically there's no way for one to know if indeed they destroy the private keys. Again - trust

bip 38 solves this

Whats bip38

It lets someone create a private key for you that only you can decrypt

TitanBTC I am glad to hear that you are so possessive about bitcoin that you are using your time and resources to assure the prosperity of bitcoin. Yes for sure I want to see bitcoin in a physical form soon just like other paper notes. I guess I need to design bitcoin physical form in my tablet. Ones it get prepared I shall share it here

say i bought the btc titan coins with 2 factor

if 1 day they get raided and shut down for whatever reason, would it be impossible for me to redeem my coins if their website goes down?

That's why only buy if you own your private key period. And bip 32 even better.

I decided to go ahead and buy the coins this coming week. I will be selecting the private key method instead of the 2 factor.

I will post a reply with my review and pictures when I receive them.

Thanks for the info and reply Bitbop and TitanBC!

Sort of solves it.  It makes for a second factor, which is helpful.
Forward transfer-ability is yet another matter.
To make that as simple and durable as current money is another issue.

You've got the antithesis of the correct conceptualization.

Debasement is necessary else the rich will aggregate all of the money via usury (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=222998.msg3596577#msg3596577) since they spend a negligible (minute) percentage of their income. Wealth and income is power-law distributed [1]. It is small government (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=222998.msg3615848#msg3615848) and decentralized control (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=222998.msg3608269#msg3608269) over debasement (i.e. no central banking) that leads to prosperity, not the lack of debasement.

The statistics for the 5% were reiterated and reexplained:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=222998.msg3608094#msg3608094

[1] Dragulescu, Exponential and power-law probability distributions of wealth and income in the United Kingdom and the United States

---

http://blog.mpettis.com/2013/08/the-urbanization-fallacy/#comment-581

Wow that is a lot buzz words. Your source is some clueless marxist on these forums, except you are misquoting him too. its sad.

But lets put aside the class warfare propaganda for a second and how utterly wrong your goals and values are.

Even if I accepted your values of what is desirable, your proposed method would do the opposite of what you want. A 5% devaluation of currency per year means a 5% tax on savings account (0% tax on property). To believe that it will cause the rich to lose money while the middle class and poor will be unhurt by it is absurd. The rich keep all their money in assets which earn them dividends. When the money loses value all their assets gain value. Net loss is 0%. However, the middle class cannot afford to spend the time and risk their meager life savings and retirement on such plans. So they will instead be losing money every year. Meanwhile the poor don't have much in savings (but suffer a lot more for each loss), but they aren't getting their salary constantly renegotiated to keep up. If you adjust the minimum wage from 30 years ago for inflation it comes up to over 20$ in todays money, much more then they are actually making.
You are punishing the poor, taxing the middle class, rewarding the rich, and calling it a progressive method absolutely necessary to redistributing wealth.

While your intent of rich only taxes is evil, stupid, and counterproductive; the actual specific method you propose and its result of a middle class only tax & poor only penalties are even MORE evil, stupid, and counterproductive in every way shape and form. And the absurdity of it all is that you don't realize you are proposing it because you are so ignorant.

Read also this linked post (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=365141.msg4379898#msg4379898).


I quoted myself and I am the antithesis of a Marxist, specifically a minanarchist, Libetarian, Austrian economics ideology.

You are actually the Fascist, Socialist Pig but you don't realize why because you lack basic math skills as explained below.


That is not my reason for my claim as detailed in this and the linked post. Rather I am saying we have to continually dilute the large capitalists which want to use dumb fixed and guaranteed returns on usury with captured power vacuum of government to parasite and enslave "smaller things grow faster" investment.

I am 100% in favor of highly expert capitalists who invest (their effort, expertise, and money) at-risk in the highest returning ventures, not in usury and government capture. I am not the Marxist, but those who believe in dividends, bonds, and insurance are.


The alternative is worse for the poor, as I stated eventually via compounding the rich must mathematically hold all of the money. (Worse as they aggregate more wealth, they become powerful enough to capture the government's taxation powers and then use the public backstop to guarantee their dividends.) Then you have slavery because they can dictate all the terms by which they will invest some money, i.e. interest rates could go as high as infinity if only one person held all the money. You need to learn the math of why more independent actors in an economy is directly correlated to macro economic efficiency (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=365141.msg4362002#msg4362002) and thus prosperity.

At least with the perpetual debasement, some money every year is being created to keep the rich from having a monopoly on available money. Instead of the dividends and interest bearing loans (bonds) of the rich gaining x% per year, they only gain (x - debasement)% or (x - inflation)%. The one big advantage the poor have is that smaller things grow faster. On a hot day, a guy selling cold mineral water can triple or quadruple his investment and a billionaire can never do that. So it is not the debasement tax that is regressive, rather it is the lack of debasement and a government tax apparatus that is regressive. Even minimum wage is regressive (http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=5034) you fool!

Also please understand that prices P can still decline when M is rising (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=365141.msg4379898#msg4379898) due to increases in investment and productivity for supply Q without collapsing velocity V.

Thus I conclude math is not your strong suite. So STFU and stop wasting my time. Idiot. Go hide under a rock and let it sink in instead of coming back for sloppy seconds, thirds, fourths, ... to waste more of time explaining the same thing over and over again.

Now with the innovation proof-of-work, especially a design that leveraged CPUs that the lower class already own and would not allow GPUs, ASICs, FPGAs, and botnets, then lower classes would have some equal access to that newly created coin. More importantly in terms of maintaining a healthy supply of competing independent actors in the economy, there is a competition for the newly created coin, i.e. those who seek out microhydropower (small streams) which is the least expensive electricity on earth, a smaller economy-of-scale activity which the rich can't do.

And if we can defeat the government's power of taxation with anonymity and decentralized currency and 3d printing commerce, then take away the corrupt backstop of the rich and force them to risk their capital and compete (where they will get resoundly chewed up by smaller things growing faster).


You idiots are why we end up with Dark Ages.

Do you find yourself doing that alot? Must be so frustrating, constantly explaining yourself to idiots, yes?

If you will permit more challenges to your assumptions...
This formulation seems to include a presupposition of legal tender enforcement, and social primogeniture.  Both historically true, but may have less of a future.

any plans on making physical coin of any other cryptocurrency? :)

hopefully they only make BTC and LTC, all others are crap  ::)

If there were some demand for it, they would be made.  Coin design and manufacture takes longer than most of the alt coins are in existence.

Have any of you guys seen what this guy is doing with low denomination tradeable BTC's (Numisalis).
http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/numisalis-physical-bitcoin (http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/numisalis-physical-bitcoin)

This is a really interesting design, coins are scan-able (tags inside), private key is in the middle of the coin and the coin must be broken open to get it out. Really designed as a usable tradeable off block chain BTC.
Hard to explain it all. I hope his campaign is successful. He has a short 2 minute video explaining things there.

No affiliation except that I gave 60 bucks to campaign and would love it to reach the goal!

Its about sharing

I was disappointed that the gears didn't move.