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 Hi

 Si it is true that RTP of slot games can be adapted to the casinos preferences ??
 
 do all providers do this ?


 And what about when slots are accessed directly on the casino website, here anything can happen, things like avoiding use of RNG too.



 Thanks to everybody

Hello Danydee

I don't think the casinos can make public this information because a variable RTP would mean they are rigged because if you increase the RTP the user will lose more times.

Most of the slots are provided by gambling agencies that develop these games, and they rent them as a service. They don't have to prove the fairness of each roll because they have a verified license. And this means we shouldn't care about what happens in the backend and we should trust them because if they do something nasty then they will lose their license.

To be honest, I'm not sure if the RTP is variable, but what I know is that we can search slots by RTP and this way play with better odds. just google rtp-slots and you will find a huge list.

 You surely mean decrease!




 Not all casinos do this,  and on top some do not even provide the RTP info !




 Here's the point,
 I've read somewhere here ( https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5383777 ) that RTP may vary from casino to another and can be adapted to the casinos wants !  In addition in some casinos software is executed under (the website/casino URL), normally it should redirects to the game provider servers, so you know you are running the game from the original makers,  but running the game under another (Interface if we could say) there's no more, or any insurance there, and everything can happen.

---

Edit

RTP is some like the payment tolerance, the slot should have the RTP assigned ever. This would vary according to each provider and casino, but in general it is the same.

In any case there is a fairly well known thread here, where you can find more details and actually funnel your question into an existing discussion thread.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5249415.msg59307710#msg59307710
well, of course if you like it.

 

Hi Danydee,

Yes, casino can choose, or better say request different RTP settings, if the game provider has multiple RTP settings available. And the bad news is that in the last year and so, it's a trend amongst the online casinos, including some big names in the industry.
 

No - there are software providers with a  fix RTP for every slot/casino game. But many of them offer multiple RTP versions.
Some of the providers that actually have ONE fix RTP version of the game(s) are:

Big Time Gaming
Relax Gaming
YGGDRASIL
Elk Studios
Iron Dog Studios
Nextgen Gaming
Kalamba Games


In the case that games are hosted on different servers (not official servers of the game provider), then those are "fake" slots, and yes, anything can happen. Here I am talking about industry software providers (Pragmatic, Microgaming, BTG, NLC....etc).

I'm not sure but I remember reading a similar discussion back then as the player tried to point out there was one casino that had a slightly higher payout compared to another casino even though the game is the same.

I think one of the slot providers that lets you do this is Booming or Betsoft, not sure if it's both of them but i'm sure that the name of the provider is starting with the letter "B" since these are the providers that most casinos have back then.

I remember someone created a topic just like this before. Further discussions also is about if casinos can change the slots' RTP. Which most of the providers offers.

To add, if I'm not mistaken, online casinos' RTP on both DEMO and ACTUAL slot can be different, in which they add more RTP on the DEMO mode. Not sure if it's absolutely true, my experience on both gambling with real money and playing demo modes, in demo, I'm winning a lot. So I guess it is somewhat true.

 I think Betsoft do, drastical difference frome one casino to another !

RTP on DEMO & ACTUAL slot SHOULD be the same. For an obvious reason, player should experience the same play on free play and real-money mode. Otherwise, it's not a fair deal to player. But, yeah, I have seen sample of a different RTP for a free & real money mode.

YES, it's called RTP variance, more explanation here: Slots 103: More In-Depth about Return To Player (RTP) (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5268333.0)

Casinos aren't required to set its game to the highest RTP since each has a different strategy. For example: more bonus, more rakeback, better wagering race prize, etc. They can surely use the "excess profits" from lower RTP. BUT, some bad one just straight profiting more and not giving back to the players.

Problems with Betsoft are some serious issues in the past. Although, must admit that they do have some very nice slot products in the terms of 3D graphic, animations & story, trust issue still stands up.

Some years back, there was a jackpot scandal where progressive jackpots weren't paying out at all. (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1531232.0)
And although a decade ago, there was a scandal with completely rigged Keno play at Absolute Poker.

I remember Jackson and his incredible win with 5 yachts! If I remember correctly he made a deal with Betcoin.ag and Betsoft and he got some money in the end, but not his full win?! Am I right?!

I also remember one small casino in the hood with a few slot machines...you open it from the back and with a key you can set up RTP! As you said already, some providers have fixed RTP for all casinos, probably their policy, but some are different... for already mentioned reasons:


Exactly this! Some casinos are "fair", and some bad ones just wish for more profit and they don't care about giving back...

I agree with you in that, and that's why we should be careful when we select a casino to gamble our coins, If you know that some casinos have a variable RTP just stay away from them and share the message with the community. We always appreciate any warning about new scams schemes.

As I mentioned in the first, for me if a site has an RTP variable, that only means it's rigged. I'm not saying users will never win, I say the house will always win and no luck will be involved in that.

Did you read the posts of the OP before replying and asking him if he rather had a streak of bad luck bro? Did you even read the merited posts of this one single page thread?  ??? You should be more careful because DT members have started to red tag the shitposts of this section. Look at that please https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;u=898552
In regards to RTP settings it's not the first time people are talking about this matter here, it's a pretty well known fact actually

I think in theory it is impossible, moreover, the games are certified. All slots that you access on casinos websites are provided via API. This means that the casino is a kind of an intermediary between you and software producers.

Hi BrutalFive,

The question was if RTP of slot games can  be adapted to casino preferences. Well, let's say not adapted but the FACT is that casinos CAN choose RTP settings if they are available on software provider's side.
Look for example, the latest release from the Nolimit City game provider:

https://i.ibb.co/9HDt4MQ/punk-toilet-rtp.jpg (https://imgbb.com/)

There are two RTP settings options: 96.09% & 94.13%
Some providers have more RTP settings options, like Pragmatic Play (3 RTP settings). And some, don't have options of lower RTP settings, just default/top one.

Hope this helps.

You seem to have very accurate and professional informations, usually not shared with the users. May I ask you how do you get all these informations? Did you find them on other forums or blogs (could you tell me which ones please I'm interested in the subject) or you are working for an online casino? Thank you very much for your informations.

To clear this up. Different RTP setting doesn't mean that slot game/online casino is rigged. The online slot is/should be random operating on 97% RTP or 89% RTP. (Take online sportsbook as an example. Offering lower odds than the competition is not rigged as per default.)

Btw, some licenses DO require showing RTP info publicly and on every single slot/casino game (help/info file on particular slot).

Software providers are businesses offering their services to different online casinos & markets. Different markets/countries/licenses have different demands & operating costs. It is up to the management of online casinos to decide which business model to choose and calculate costs VS profits.

On the other hand, it's up to players to choose where are the best chances to play. But the fact is that a few percentages of lower RTP settings can affect players' play-time drastically in the long term.


I will make a separate in-depth thread on this subject when I catch some extra time.

I really like this type of threads because it will make you think about the sites to choose to play and deal with. I am honestly not so educated about this topic, and through reading the replies here, made me realize of the misconceptions that I have been holding to for a long time now. I hope that you will update here about your separate thread @ultraBTC.

Of course rijaljun. Will make update here about the separate thread.

This is awesome ultraBTC, thanks for sharing this information and I hope you don't get in trouble for doing it because this is something that users shouldn't know at all.

What is crazy for me is that they simulate 10 billion spins and that's how they estimate the RTP. But I can be sure their simulation was always the same amount, and if the users always bet different amounts then the RTP should change.

Alright, thank you for that! I am sure that many could learn a thing or two from this thread and from yours that will be soon posted. I’ll be checking this thread and your account as well from time to time. Hoping to hear from you real soon.

The thing is, for extremely high-variance slot games (like this one), simulation goes in billions of spins. (You will notice that in this particular game, the chance of highest payout is 1:4million spins/without buying a free spins feature). So with such a high variance, the sample needs to go in billions to approach the theoretical mean. Less is probably required to be within SD (Standard Deviation). It's the Law of Large Numbers.

For low/middle variance slots, it's in terms of millions of spins or less depending on volatility.

For example, take a look of this LIVE RTP sample:

https://i.ibb.co/Pz5rNzv/rtp.jpg (https://ibb.co/vvJcHv6)

You will notice drastic variations in a short time frame (today, yesterday). But, when the sample gets huge (semester), it's pretty much within the theoretical mean.

Nah, I don't have problems with that & sharing some information that might be useful to players and the community. My point is that players should be educated and decide/choose where are the best chances to play.

79.5% of RTP while it's supposed to be 93% that's a pretty high gap indeed, and I'm not talking about the 23% of the day... The volatility of slots seems to be way higher than the one of table games (100% instead of 98% here), then people should be aware and educated about that. If they are not ready to bet small stakes and to spend big amounts of time, their bank roll can be wipe out by volatility and they can face big losses.

 Searching for a game, and guess what !?
 I literally found two versions of it, maybe could think that is just a displaying bug, but:

      https://i.postimg.cc/4dBhcrLh/Screenshot-20220410-015708-Chrome.jpg         https://i.postimg.cc/WbQq0mnS/Screenshot-20220410-015717-Chrome.jpg





 After looking on games infos of each version it is been confirmed

      https://i.postimg.cc/VLB5byJs/Screenshot-20220410-020104-Chrome.jpg         https://i.postimg.cc/VkK6Dj93/Screenshot-20220410-015920-Chrome.jpg

^No Limit city is known to have two versions of its games:
Regular with ~96% RTP and DX-1 with ~94% RTP

Normally, the casino will display "DX-1" or only use the best/desired version.

The way I understand it is the following....

The 3rd Party Service Provider will give the casino the option to choose which RTP it wants them to configure for the game that they are hosting. Then that Slot will run on the RTP that the provider configured for that casino.

Some casino's offer the option to show you what RTP are currently configured for that Slot, like Bitcasino.io / Stake.com ... and/or you can check while you are within some of the Slots.

So to answer your question... Yes, the RTP can be re-adjusted ...but it is done on the 3rd Party Service provider side... and not by the casino. Now, this is applicable to the third party Slots.... but some casinos have their own original games... and with these games, the casino can change the RTP as they like.  ::)

This is interesting- was the discussion backed with evidence and facts? In addition, did the gambling websites disclose such information to the public or was it purely based on his gathered data and information? I am curious as to how the methodology of such research went as this can either make or break a gambling website's profit in the long-run.

As regards to OP's question, I really doubt that a gambling website would disclose such important piece of information to the public. Preferably, slot machines that have high RTP are the ones to be preferred if you plan on gambling long-term. But this could definitely hurt the gambling business as this would be prejudicial on their part.

 In some cases the casino is not displaying or redirecting directly to the provider servers, "the url bar is not showing the common provider url/address, it showing instead the casino url".
 This case it needs some analysis to see if it is the provider server that is running under the visible url, or if is there some parameters that can allow the casino some tricking of the results.

 Here is an excellent thread on the subject by: bitcasinorank (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=3178462)
 https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5393892.0



 and here is also a very great sensibilisation article from him:
 https://www.gamblersbay.com/lowered-rtp-slots

Hi @ultraBTC , Hi everyone

Could I ask you, how do providers are paid ? Do they're taking percentage of the edge ??

I my mind is to clarify how's the interest of a provider to rig a game !

Some 3rd party Slot providers offer different RTP percentages, so the casino can decide what RTP they want to use. I know from experience that the RTP for Slots in "brick n mortar" casinos cannot be changed on the fly. There are a lot of hoops and regulations that you have to adhere to, when you want to adjust the RTP.

I have to be honest, my knowledge on online casinos (Slots) are not on par with what I know from Slots in "brick n mortar" casinos, but in regulated casinos this should be the same.

Now this is a whole different story for the in-house / original games... I think the casinos adjust those on the fly.  ::)

Ps - All money wagered goes into the casino's bankroll..

Ok, thank you

But what about the providers remuneration?  it is on percentage basis ? Fixed rates ?  Both ??

I think most of the time, slot game providers' remuneration depends on the job they have done with the casino operator. If it is a house game, most likely, casino will pay the developers/providers a one time payment.
On the other hand, I think providers like Pragmatic, NetEnt, YGGDRASIL, etc. are bound to get percentage based from the revenue that the slot has made.
I don't think casino will offer fixed rates (per time unit) for the provider, just imagine if the game does not became popular to their players and close to no one is playing it. So, I think percentage basis is what casino thinks are the best for themselves.

 Ok,

 That is comforting my guesses ..


 So while I playing a game I've played a lot before, I noticed many clear indications that the game could be rigged ! And that's in differents casinos.

 So I think maybe the provider could make like that some aggressive shots to cumulate high benefits!

 

How did you notice that? For a game as difficult to understand as slots, it is strange that a pattern is established, if you say that a slot game is fixed, what are the tools that you used? I ask because one of the casino games that I least trust is slots, because the possibility of losing is stronger than winning, and if you win it is very little, unless they have a large multiplier.

I have seen many slots, from providers, but based on your experience, which ones do you think have a better chance of being more fair or winning? I can not understand the logic of a slot machine, it is very difficult, you can lose up to 100 times in a row and it is not considered an advantage.

 Justly that's a very strange thing, while playing ("Book of darkness" from betsoft) on differents casinos, (but from the same browser). Recently, when getting the "free spins feature", there is expanding symbols feature.. and it is of course paying higher rates for the rarest symbols as the characters and the items! and so the symbols "Q, A, K" are at the lowest rates..

https://i.postimg.cc/dV0Ddw2w/Screenshot-20220925-214339-Chrome.jpg


 
  The weird thing is that while getting a (common) symbol ("K, Q, A") selected, during the free spins is the rarest symbols that are drawn/rolled.. that could be put down to the hasard if it was just few times!
 but that being systematical.. imagine you playing a slot game, and is the rarest symbols that instead sre rolled, more and more, roll after roll !!

Yes, that means that mostly the RTP is part of what the casino assigns, I have seen many casino players, that before playing the first thing they investigate is the RTP offered by the slots, and one of the best I have Seen is the one from stake.com and bitcasino.io, really when you play you feel that they have more chance to win, but in my personal opinion due to my experience, it is not much but something I have learned is that in Pragmatic Play slots I have more options to win, I don't know if it's because I like them more or because I see more things, but I do win more, more with those that are from the gods of Olympus.

The information on this is very confidential between the casino and the 3rd party service provider, so you will not get "clear" answers on that. Logic says that they enter into a contractual agreement to take a percentage of the profits made on those Slots and that they have some kind of "hire" agreement in place... with options to change the RTP.

It is a myth that the RTP and Variance are being changed on the fly, but we know different casinos can run the same Slot on different RTP, so you will have to do some research to see which Slot is running what RTP to improve your odds. (Note it will be 1 or 2 percent at best, so it does not make a world of difference)  ::)

 You found me just reflecting about this point,, I think in addition to a first RTP verification, you should verify it regularly "on the game", (I been experienced) sometimes casinos start forwarding to a different (lower) RTP version without notice and even without making update of the RTP announced on the casino description !

I feel like you can see the difference from casino to casino if playing the same game. I'll notice a bonus hits more often on xxx site vs another. I could be complately fucked in the head and just be seeing what I want to see, but i'm pretty sure casinos can request different rtps.

 That's the fact, providers are been making available different RTP versions for the casinos for many many games.. sometimes with huge difference between the highest and the lowest version! Most of time you can verify this in the game on the game informations, but for some providers there is option to not show the RTP!

I think there is been some games that have no different RTP versions, like: ("Sweet Bonanza" Pragmatic  and  "Guns n Roses" from NETENT.)
My guess is while for the first is question of reputation regarding to the popularity of the game, for the second is maybe due to some clauses of the contract made with the (Guns n Roses) band !!






Sometimes while using the search you can see a casino holding both versions of a same game:

https://i.postimg.cc/nLbQsjxQ/Screenshot-20220930-182741-Chrome.jpg

 Here the lowered version is called "DX1" !

Different casinos have different RTP, you`re right, but the difference is small enough to feel it if you gambling less than a month i think. And it is possible that in one casino you feel that you win more often than in another but i think that the most times it is just luck and when you`d gamble for a month - you`d not see any difference if RTP in these casinos is the same.

So in your opinion, in general do a variation/difference of 2 percent is perceptible or not perceptible! ??

Where did you get that info? It's very interesting to me. Can you share, please?


But reputable gambling sites don't do such things, right?


This is certainly not true. Regulators would shut down such site/provider immediately.

Also, form my personal experience, I can't say the payouts in DEMO mode is higher than they are in real mode.

---

I read somewhere (I think it was Wired, but I can't find the article now) that slot providers can change RTP of their slots for promo reasons on a grand scale. Not just 2%-3%, the difference we are talking about, but increasing the RTP to something like 150% for some time. But it's still a mystery to me whether it happens or not in reality.

If you`re gambling just for fun - 1-2 times a week for example - you don`t see the difference. If you`re gambling several hours per day and every day for a long time - 2 percent becomes a significant difference.
If you gambling for $100 - you get difference just $2. If you gambling for $10.000 it becomes $200. Percent the same, but sum differs.

If you're gambling several hours each day you're no longer able to see anything !

It is not a problem for some men, i even know such a man. I always say that there is no one recipe for everybody. I can answer you in common - that is how i answered before. Or i can tell my opinion for my type of gambling.
For me 2% difference of RTP - doesn`t matter. I gamble mostly for 20-30 minutes and with small sums - i don`t see if i lose $1-2 more.

If I am playing in a casino that has a very good RTP, for me it is a very good thing, I have a very high chance of winning, but how can the casino survive if things go wrong? Does a casino have all the availability to then change the RTP at your convenience? and if it is done I think they have to announce it or put it next to the slot that changed it, I don't think they change the RTP in certain slots, I think that if they change they should do it in all available slots so that they can be equivalent for all, and no there is no type of claim for anyone, and this is what the transparency of every casino is about, above all legality.

Casinos love slots players, that's their bread and butter. Most large jackpots will take forever to hit and in most cases the casino has long gotten their money.

 @danadc
 There is very good blog about these here
 https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5386501.msg59833321#msg59833321


It is very depending on what is available from the games providers, and not all providers are doing the same way.. some providers allow to just not display the RTP on the games informations. For some game there is three different  RTP levels, For some it almost self-evident that there is only one rtp version existing.
 For some, casinos can just choose to not provide them..

 And it is also question of payment structure.. for exemple for a game that can pay decent profits quite frequently casinos could not adopt it or not adopt a (relatively) high rtp version of it!





.

Indeed, to feel a 2% difference in RTP one have to make millions of bets. It's important for gambling sites and providers, but not so much to us, regular gamblers. Overall I think looking for a slot with lower RTP is pointless, you can lose all your balance playing a slot with 99% RTP, and you can win a lot playing Mega Moolah with 88% RTP. If you had a united army of many thousands of bettors, it would matter for you, but for an individual player it doesn't.

 Again, those things are very depending on some others factors.. with a game with very low hit ratio and high volatility, you can lose consequently huge balance without winning a single bet, losing bet after bet till the end..
 but mathematically, the expectation is to lose your balance twice as fast playing a game with 96%RTP that playing with 98%PTP !

 Some casinos can provide games with very hight RTP and in the same time choose to not for some games or they simply do not provide them.. that is because of the payment structure, in some games you can get huge profits relatively quite quickly, so and then stop playing.. so and then if there is not lot of attendance on the game on the casino itself, the casino can choose to not endorse the benefit/risk ratio!

---

edit


 About feeling a difference not,
 Imagine you playing one of those games with very high volatility and low hit ratio, events that equalizing your bance or recovering some of your bets is occurring just with those some rare decent wins or hitting bonus rounds,, then you have practically two times less chances to hit good wins.. and you can burst your balance practically two times more quickly!

Well, sometimes if the casinos change the RTP constantly, it is something that I do not know if they do it according to what the slot provider recommends, I know that this is something very much theirs, and that a provider says that it is the best for them and when they can be willing to lose, however I have thought that this is an issue that does have a lot to do with the different types of slots, although it sounds a bit strange, I feel that the Pragamatic play style slots I feel that I have more lucky to win, even though I'm not looking to win but to be entertained, but if I've noticed that a lot, in fact some casinos have their apparent RTP in their slots at the bottom.

I'll say from my own experience. I play different slots with various RTP, including Mega Moolah with 88% RTP seeing it like buying a lottery ticket, and, with the exception of Mega Moolah, I have never felt the difference. I mean, high volatility slots still providing you with small wins, and the frequency of those wins are often higher than on low volatility slots. Just recently I lost almost 20 bets in a row on a low volatility slot. This never happened to me when I was playing Money Train 2, and I played that slot a lot.

 Anyway, atributing a certain amount/bankroll to risk for playing, for a difference of 2% between 98%RTP and 96%RTP for example is (mathematically/probably) two times less for playing.. !

Your experience is surprising because when the hit ratio is low it's very quickly noticeable for the players usually. Quicker than a low RTP IMO. Actually I think I made one of my biggest losses on a slot with a high RTP but a small hit ratio (5%), I didn't pay attention to its hit ratio, and I started to play with a rather large stake because I thought it was safe to play on a slot with such a high RTP. Unfortunately I encountered long losing streaks that wiped out my balance before I managed to bring my PnL anywhere near 70% RTP at any time.

Maybe this could be of help. This does not cover all games producers, but still...

Playngo: up to 6 RTP Variants between 99% – 84%
Pragmatic Play: almost all games up to 5 RTP Variants between 96% – 87%.
Red Tiger: almost all games up to 5 RTP Variants between 98% – 90%
Nolimit City: almost all games 2 RTP Variants: 96% & 94%
Spinomenal: almost all games 4 RTP Variants 96% – 89%
Habanero: almost all games up to 4 RTP Variants between 98% – 92%
Swintt: almost all games 2 RTP Variants: 95% – 92%
isoftBet: almost all games 2 RTP Variants: 96% & 92%
Push Gaming: several games 2 RTP Variants: 96% & 95%
Netent: many games up to 8 RTP Variants between 99% – 90%
Microgaming: several games 3 RTP Variants: 96% – 92%
Blueprint: a few games 2 RTP Variants: 96% & 94%
Quickspin: a few Games 3 RTP Variants between 96% – 90%
Thunderkick:  One game 2 RTP Variants: 96% & % 94%
ELK: Can't be adjusted
Yggdrasil: Can't be adjusted

there are casinos that publish this data, also often can be found in games rules and there other sometimes peculiar methods, for example:

Book of Dead, playngo:

Stake - 96%
Roobet - 94%
Duelbits - 96%
Bitcasino - 96%
Winz - 96%
Betfury - 96%
Punt - 96%

That's a very interesting and accurate list but how did you find those figures? It's something you've found yourself by playing at different casinos, or it comes from private datas for professional only? It's very surprising to learn there are providers offering up to 8 RTP variants. I guessed it was 2 or 3 variants at most.

You have no data for Hacksaw and OneTouch btw? Because ultraBTC has posted a list of providers offering only one single RTP above and those two providers don't appear there either.

I am a retired gambling professional and also gamble myself, so both :) A lot of info I know, but there quite a few casinos that publish the info like this. Google Coolbet, that's a fiat casino, in their casino section they have an RTP calculator where they cover those things and to my experience that info is correct. Btw, in many cases it is not 100% of games that are adjustable, but rather some, though usually the list is quite long. No idea about Hacksaw and and Onetouch unfortunately. Just a guess, I'd say those guys have no way to adjust RTP, but that's not for sure. Onetouch is a sister company to Bitcasino.io and these guys have rather been transparent for many years. Hacksaw for long time catered their games via Relax and Relaxs does not allow to adjust RTP. Now they are going direct integrations as well, so I am not entirely sure.

You're probably right, but I was talking about my experience with slots of high and low RTP. Hit ratio is something similar to slot volatility, no? On low volatility slots hit rates are higher, but, on average, you are getting lower payouts on your hits. On high volatility slots you are rewarded less frequently, but you can get some really big wins(my favourite kind of slots).

And you are right, my experience is surprising, but that's how I feel. Maybe it's just because of my expectations, when after playing high volatility slots I expect much higher hit ratio on low volatility ones than I'm getting in reality. :)

How did you achieve such an experience? I can't believe that you have such a good level in slots, I'm honest, it's the worst for me in slots, it seems impressive to me that every time I play, I lose everything, I don't think that's something normal, it is that yes I bet with little money too, but I have seen in threads that there are teragamoneds bettors who win a lot with little, is that true according to your experience? seeing that you have all that experience, do you know a lot about RTP, and the value you speak of is very true, if then the RTP is high, then the profits are lower? something like that I understood, but it seems to me that it is somewhat confusing.

Interesting, actually a thread that makes you think positively really have meaning. If you are not educated through the thread, i think the best thing you should do is to make a research concerning what you don't know, because i believe that making research it will makes you determine totally to know what you don't no through your determination, and i believe that it has gone and it has gone forever, so therefore education those notes end with someone opinion at least you will make your own findings

It depends on how many spins you do per your slots session. If it's around a hundred spins, it's practically impossible for all of them to be not winning at least something.


Yes, losing everything all the time is definitely not normal. Betting with little money is a good way to prolong your session without losing all your balance, and you also can hit something great along the way. My personal record so far is 934x of my bet

https://i.imgur.com/0GVxQZj.png

But I'm sure you can beat it. After all, it all depends on luck, and wish you good luck, my friend! :)

But remember, you should not risk more money than you can afford to lose. Apart from a chance of winning big, there's always a chance of losing all your balance, so, keep that in mind.

 That's remind me of those slot games with no (maximum hit),
correct me if I'm wrong, but belonging to the RTPs indicated.. the fact/possibility that you can hit some bonus rounds and continue to theorically win unlimited amount is/will surely affecting the regular or (middle) returns on those games !!
 /and can lead to burning your balance in no time!


Thats remind me also of an user that won a very huge amount on a slot game and the casino just locked his account.. (he created a topic here on the forum about that).. after negotiating with the casino he accepted to get paid of an amount equivalent to something like just 10% the amount he won maybe (I don't remember exactly) and in addition repartited in several instalments !

I don't understand how winning additional bonus rounds can lead to burning your balance. Please explain.

As for the RTP of those slots where you can win an unlimited amount of free spins(I actually think it's limited at a certain number), I think all those wins will be taken into account when regulators/auditors carry out verification of whether the stated RTP is equal to the real one.


This is an interesting story, I didn't read it. It must a really huge amount if even 10% of that was paid in several installments. Can you share a link?

 If there is no a maximum theorical cap for winnings hit, it can affect negatively the (medium returns), or those average or medium wins that allows you to play and wager higher amount than your bance..

 The fact that an unlimited win can really occur mean also that you can place unlimited amounts without any win..

 
 Let me give you an example.. For the game "Sweet Bonanza" for example, as they say:

https://i.postimg.cc/rmsJGHps/Screenshot-20221101-163724-Chrome.jpg

 Additionally to that, during the bonus rounds hitting 3 or more lollipops give you an extra 5 free spins.. so it can continue indefinitely
 so each and both the facts points to that there is no a maximum possible win !



 
  For the calculation, if we take for example a random number generator, and consider just the one digit number on the right.. then the probability to get each digit at this position is 1 per 10.... then the probability calculus is here, but there is still chance, or possibility to get one or ever more digits never drawn at this position.. !












 I tried to recover the thread.. but it is dated from about three years of now, I will give it another try..
 
 He have get that on some game related to (Olympus gods), and I think that could maybe was a Pragmatic game as he posted a reply of his win.  he was playing at $3 single bet ( or $30 ), and he get constant bonuses activated during the bonus round.. this like till hitting a very huge amount.
 
 I remember at the end, LoyceV asked him how he accepted to renounce and accept the small "consolation" amount they give him, but he didn't respond.



edit

Always everything that is teaching and learning for me is something welcome, especially for slots, for a high RTP I have realized that the rewards are not that high, but a low RTP yes, so there are many things that we Sometimes as ignorant players, at first, I didn't even know what RTP was, or what that number was like? sometimes I went in and saw that number but I didn't care, I thought it was a slot code to identify it inside the casino or something similar, I never thought it was something to identify, these things are what make it more favorable and more entertaining of the game, the more you know about something, it will always be very good.

 I found it, here is a discussion thread about it,,
the user edited his posts and talked about a settlement.. what bitcasino denied and talk about fraudulent manipulation of the game.

 https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5260832.0

Now I see what you meant to say. Thanks for the explanation! :)

Indeed, theoretically, you can be rolling forever without any win, and, of course, the opposite can happen. Yet in reality we don't know such cases, right? I mean, even something close to "forever", like 100k winning spins, this has never happened to anyone.

And still I think that if someone hit a very long winning streak, it can't affect medium returns because those things are totally unrelated.

Hi @Danydee, sry just catching up with this thread/topic. In short, the answer is yes. They do take percentage of the edge.

There might be different models, but in the end, they take % of GGR. For example, 10% GGR (gross gaming revenue).

Related to Relax - an update. Unfortunately, Relax Gaming introduced lower RTP settings model (around 94%) earlier this year. Bad news, since Relax is a top-notch provider. If you are playing Relax slots, be sure to double check slot RTP to be sure its a default/top one.

Legit casinos display the RTP of their slot games which is usually the real deal and they don't try and cheat their customers since they are aware of the fact that cheating could end their business in a flash.

On the other hand, scam sites do tweak their slot game RTPs and will never reveal this truth for obvious reasons. This is why research is crucial when choosing sites to gamble in.

 Yes, just to bo sure I am clear enough..
 
 Just the possibility that an extra big win can theorically really occur mean that it meed something to cover/pay it!


 For example the game Jammin Jars run in someway similar to the Sweet Bonanza tumbling,  and they capping the maximum win per round/bet to about 20,000×.

 Just to get an idea about the (magnitude),
some NOLIMIT games are capped to a maximum 66,000 × per single bet, and the chances to thats occur are about 1 on 18 millions.. like for winning the french lotto!

I really didn't know about that case, it's something curious, it's that the amount must have been astronomical, but I imagine it's because he took it with a lot of RTP, for me this RTP is a very important number, for me it defines many things, now Well, if I understand correctly the RTOP when it is very high, then the pay is low, for a low RTP the profit is low, right? There should always be a great balance in all this, for this reason it is something that I am always interested in knowing, I am a very active slot machine player, and this type of thread is learned a lot, with respect to what is said about the RTP is something that some casinos take into account and can be a source of competition between them.

This is very interesting to me, actually, because it's very hard to find a reliable info on this subject. Can it mean that when people are saying that if a big Jackpot won on a slot, you shouldn't expect another big win on this slot any time soon? I mean, how does this fit with the notion that "all spins are independent" and stuff?

No. This shouldn't be the case with any truly random slot game. Any past event doesn't have influence on future event.

In other words, if your chance for a jackpot is 1:1000000. On every spin it is still 1:1000000, no matter if jackpot has been won seconds or months ago by other player.

And vice versa, you might be hit the jackpot even though there are just user who hit the jackpot before your bet. If your chance is exactly like that, better don't play slot or it will just ruin your bankroll. People thinking they can always win in slot game or if they can survive for long time, which they think have beaten it, which obviously not.
To any people out there, don't easily believe with someone posted he hitted the jackpot, you never know whats behind them.

Here is the trick... RTP doesn't mean it's provably fair, and each time the game hits a jackpot, then the game has to normalize the RTP, and that means users will have a losing streak until the RTP gets down to 94% or the percent the game has. But here the trick is the multiple for the same game... that means if one hits the jackpot. other 300 users will lose until the game recovers the money. And that's why we can't verify each roll in the slots machines, because they manipulate the game until recover, and that's a secure way to always win for the casino.

For provably fair games they can win the jackpot back to back with the right luck, and with that kind of games the house not always win, sometimes users with good look will take more profit than the house.

 Some providers like BGaming (https://www.bgaming.com/provability-explained/) started to made provably fair games but has abort this !

 I think this question of manipulation of RTP (or RTP stats) it can occur in a more subtile way.. for the calculation and showing the stats: if there is two users who play a rigged game, one lose his bets with high stakes and the other double his bettings with a minimal stakes, then the global RTP stats will show the average (for the same number of bets).



  The question is they making the speech to selling us these (licenses.. licensing RNGs.. etc.) as a warranty..  while in fact there is no way to verify the fairness they're running behind.. we have no other choice than just trusting them.

  
 An example, for Pragmatic (Wheel of fortune) based games.. where there is a dealer spin the wheel to get a result, I noticed in certains periods that all dealers don't spin the way hard enough to making the wheel do just between 1 and 2' spins in average..
the problem this way, is that the dealer can easily monitor to target the spin the avoid those majors wins that are  for some present in just one single position for 50+ positions ..



 PS..  It seems about the game "Sweet Bonanza" that is been caped to a maximum win ~21,000×.. I just noticed that in the descriptions.. but I still think/have that feeling it is/ or can get rigged..

Yes, tRTP itself doesn't mean it's provably fair. Or let's say fair. 99% tRTP slot game can be rogued, and 92% tRTP can be a fair game. And vice versa. Those are different terms.


This shouldn't be the case with modern random online slots. I am emphasizing the words "shouldn't" and "random" and "modern slots". The slot game doesn't have to normalize RTP. (in the sense its forced/manipulated). It's in the law of big numbers that will naturally normalize RTP. Bigger the number of bets/spins/trials, it's closer to tRTP. Closer to the mean. Its just math. Of course, it also depends on the variance of the game.


I know where are you coming from, but again, this scenario will naturally happen over millions/billions of spins. Especially with high variance slots. When you see a lucky 10,000xbet winner, yeah, there are hundreds of losers. My point is that slot game doesn't have to be "forced" to reach RTP until the game recovers the money.

That's why you will rarely see GGR in minus in medium-to-high trafficked online casinos. Simply because bets/spins/trials reaches millions/billions. In small casinos, it's not uncommon to see monthly GGR in minus.

Online casino owners shouldn't worry at all about winners/losers'. Or better to say deposits/cash-outs. And casinos that know what they are doing, are not worried about huge cash-out. It's actually great advertisement. All they should care about is number of bets/spins/trials. The bigger number of spins, its closer to the tRTP. Still, not many people in the industry realize that. One huge cashout, and panic taster is on :-)

Just as a side note: I am not saying that there is no possibility that some rogue game provider use "force" mechanic in order to manipulate RTP in the terms of RTP recovery after big win. I mean, we have seen it all, from online casinos, game providers, affiliates and players. My point is that there is no need for this kind of an action. House always win in the long term.

Yeah, this is a good sample how manipulation can be done. For me personally, I had doubts about one particular game provider with patterns as in your sample above.



Sadly, but true. In fact, there is a way to verify the fairness. But, it costs. Both time & money.

You are right, I am not sure if the average player is that concerned with all those concepts such as probably fair or other. It think that it is much more about ensuring afully comprehensive experience including some of the best individuals serving as a client customer help and dialoguing with the users when that is needed. All the technicals are far less important.

What? Have you even read this topic?

I think that paxmao's is just a digression within the topic, as we are focusing on the technical details, in order to add the idea that for most gamblers it is not important whether it resets or not, because they will continue gambling due to other factors that they perceive as more important (even if they are not).

Back on topic, in the case of physical slot machines we have all heard that they are "hot" when there is a long time since the last jackpot, and at least in my country it is typical to see Chinese citizens playing because they know how to guess the point of the pattern for the return to player rate in a certain moment.

I am not any expert, but my intuition about the RTP technology is that this may have been simpler in the past, but in the modern times even the physical machines differ due to variables like who is the manufacturer, the machine model, and in certain cases even machine-by-machine programming. Not to say in online slots, where mechanics could vary even more easily in time.

To finish, in the cases in which provably fairness is real, we couldn't really say that the machine is "hot" anymore, and it goes against the classical perception we all have about the mechanics of these machines; so to me the provability is not a point as critical as in other games, like dices, coin tosses, roulette, etc.

As a player, I think that one has to ask all these kinds of questions and those of us who don't know much about the subject must take a break and put all our interest to learn from these concepts because even if you are not a complete veteran, it is important because here you put the money. I know that I am not going to have a completely technical knowledge based on programming because that is not my strong point, but if I know more about the games that I play, that for me would give me an idea of ​​what I can achieve and thus not be worried if in one My play went wrong because a casino robbed me or not, I didn't know what an RTP was or what it was for, and there are many players who don't know what an RTP is either and they still play.

Okey guys, think I will take a break here from posting. It really doesn't make any sense to respond to bots.  :)

But I've been always thinking that that's what regulators are doing. They have both, time and money, and it's their job to verify the fairness, in our case the stable, unchanging RTP, no matter what.

For example, I heard that licencing authorities use an algorithm to predetermine the result of all spins on a slot, within, say, 10 million spins, to make sure the RTP is the same as stated by the slot provider. Was it just a rumor, or are they really doing this?

It would mean the RNG of the slot is not truly random and the game can be cracked somehow, so I really doubt about that. A good entropy/randomness is also a protection against players, to avoid being tricked and exploited by them or by anyone. Anyway I don't think casinos would accept a slot game where you can guess the result of the next spins. As ultraBTC said "Any past event doesn't have influence on future event. In other words, if your chance for a jackpot is 1:1000000. On every spin it is still 1:1000000, no matter if jackpot has been won seconds or months ago by other player.", in other words it must work in the same way as a roulette where the same number can be drawn several times in a row.

I've been meaning to research about slots return rates but didn't know where to start, so where did you got this data from? And is there any way to know what settings different casinos are using? I want to make a spreadsheet for my own amusement comparing slots rtp in different casinos.

Here is the source info: Online Casinos are using Reduced RTP Online Slot Versions (https://www.gamblersbay.com/lowered-rtp-slots) . Though, just a few things in the list have changed in the meanwhile.

It all depends. Which regulator/license authority? Without going into details, but there are a big differences. What about casinos with no license at all?

But in the end, much of it depends on the people who run the business behind online casino. Still it's a wild wild west in some cases.

I will try to explain how I see it.

Imagine you have a physical casino called "Coin Toss", and what's going on there is people betting on either heads or tails, and you claim that your coin is not rigged, and that it's always 50/50 and stuff.

A guy comes to your casino and loses a lot of money because of betting on tails and martingaling and getting 13 heads in a row. He claims your coin is rigged, making a complaint to the authorities, and they decide to conduct an inspection. They take your coin, they toss it 10 million times, and see that it's not rigged, that the result is 49.9999% heads and 50.0001% tails, and they leave you alone. Now it is proven that your business if fair, but no one can take advantage of this information. You can't abuse it, right?

I a maner of 50/50 probability 13(and more) same result in a row can happen quite frequently ..  


But I think in the case of an inspection what they should do is inspecting your game/coin if it is all regular and searching for eventual shitting elements..

If they decide to just make some number of tosses what guarantees if you not just disabled the rigging system for the time of the inspection!



Maybe some elements like for the cases quoted by ultraBTC (here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5386501.msg59316703#msg59316703 ) could alerts them about eventual infractions and then leads them to decide/or not to conduct an inspection..  but as stated/explained by Saint-loup even making billions of billions rolls to verify the average is not an indicator, as in the probabilities even the so so rarest events can actually occurs!

This is really interesting. Is it possible? Do you think it's possible to disable some rigging system for the time of the inspection, and then turn it on again? I mean, of course, it's possible, but I personally think that in reality inspectors are perfectly aware of such possibility, and there are measures in place for preventing it from happening.

I think that is depending on the licensing jurisdiction..
and I think that the thing is controlled like an administration/bureau is controlled.. I think that what is it.. or maybe authorities could ask providers/casinos to keep unalterable(like be backed online) registers/archives of all the operations made, and then the RNG should be encrypted by the licensing authority itself to put a signature certifying its use on the registers.



About the RTP,  Stake ordered/is running an enhanced RTP version of sweet bonanza (98%)  ;D



Another thing that I want to evoke that I think is more important that the RTP, is the Payment structure / repartion..

 so if a slot machine can pay a decent win quite quickly you could then take your win and stop playing early in the game.. so that will be not very profitable and some casinos could not appreciate it!
 
 so the most of slot games operating are on the contrary repartiting the most of the returns on the small wins and making the big wins quite rare.. what should lead you to play more.. but (mathematically) the more you wager, the more you lose!

I just wanted to add my two cents for both MGA and Curacao licensed casinos :)

In most cases the game providers and regulators are the ones dictating the RTP. If you have Netent as an example, they don't want that anyone has a bad experience with their IP's, because games like Gonzo and others are exactly the reason why they, as a company, are that popular.

If a casino has an MGA license, then they have to comply, and if they have a Curacao license, they have to get an additional certificate (ISO/IEC 17025). Both the regulator and the game provider state that Gonzo for an example can be between 95% and 98%, but then it's up to the Casino to see if they want to play within that ballpark.

And any good casino knows that setting a slot game to 95% will lead to faster burnouts and dissatisfied customers, so they generally keep it around 96% or sometimes offer enhanced gams with RTP ranging between 97% and 98%.

This is only true for online casinos though, offline casinos are sometimes going down to 85%, and I have no clue how can they do that legally, but I stopped playing in offline casinos a while ago so I don't care about it at this point.

What I'm trying to say is, every casino that wants to actually entertain their users and become a name on the market will want to offer industry standard RTP's, and if you're following sites like AskGamblers or similar you'll know which ones are legit and which ones are just here to grab your money and disappear after a year.

In a perfect world, yes. But everything has some advantages and some disadvantages. For example, a lower % means you will likely lose more money over time than a casino slot with a higher %. Looking at it the other way, a lower % will mean the game is more profitable both for the online casino and the game studio that supplies the game. Also, user demands play an essential role in this regard.
 

Most likely it is. Btw, do you happen to know, where we can read the requirements regarding slot games' RTP in any jurisdiction. Actually, it's so hard to find things like this, I would happily read any related information.


That's a pretty big enhancing! Sweet Bonanza slot normally has around 96.50% RTP, but are you sure it's Sweet Bonanza and not Sweet Fiesta?


I think, it is more like, the more you wager, the more casino is earning. As for us regular gamblers, it all depends on luck, unless we are making tens of millions of spins. The more spins is done, the less it depends on luck, and the closer are we to losing exactly what we should lose in accordance with the RTP.

Yah, Fiesta !

But it's the same game, just renamed/enhanced !





Yes, you're totally right dear!

If they all would be broke there wouldn't be any gamblers. Winnings come with the territory as same as losses. That's why people gamble. They wouldn't get addicted or gambled at all if they didn't win as well. Some people just don't have any risk management and they don't cut their losses but gamble everything. These people would gamble on high leveraged markets is there wasn't slots around.

Yes, but in the long run gamblers lose more than they gain. The incentive to gamble is that every now and then, in some sessions, they come out positive, but the sum total of their lifetime bets and winnings comes out negative.


In this I agree and I have said it before: those who have problems with gambling, if gambling did not exist they would have other problematic behaviour such as the one you are talking about.

From what you said, I can conclude that what you see and assess are those who have no knowledge of playing gambling until they go bankrupt.
You should see and judge all gambling enthusiasts across the country. I'm not defending gambling activities.
I myself am also a gambler but have never experienced bankruptcy and hopefully in the future I will avoid bankruptcy.
If you say addiction, yes, it is true that someone who tries to gamble and feels the sensation of the fun of playing will become an addict, especially in the first few games you can experience victory, so you will be even more determined to continue playing or betting.

I agree with you, statistics from casinos and independent scientific studies show that most of people stop when they begin to lose too much money because of the human loss aversion. Random people feel more pain when they lose than they feel pleasure when they win, that's why they usually stop gambling before getting critical losses that can get them into real troubles and way before getting addicted. So people "broke and addicted" are just a minority of gamblers (and traders). Actually studies show that "only" between 5% and 8% of gamblers are addicted.

A study from Standford university has confirmed that by monitoring gamblers behaviors in a real casino.

https://www.gsb.stanford.edu/insights/most-gamblers-are-just-out-fun

https://www.conversion-uplift.co.uk/loss-aversion-psychology/

You are generalizing way too much, it is true that casinos will give themselves an advantage on each and every game they make available to their customers, and it is also true that some of those customers could become addicted to gambling, but they are a minority, not only that this plays against casinos, I have always thought that casinos do not like that people get addicted either as not only this generates bad publicity against them and high regulations but it also reduces their profits, as it is obvious that a casino will obtain way more profits by having a lot of clients which lose a little bit of money than by having a small poll of clients of which all of them are addicted.

Please try to stay in topic.

Welcome to the gambling section, where the goal of 80% of the people is to post random bs to meet their signature campaign quote :D

Anyhow, check out my reply that I gave you a few posts up, and if you have more questions just ask. I've been working in the industry for awhile now, with both MGA and Curacao licensed operators.