Bitcoin Forum

The last couple months there have been a lot of posts concerning the IRS ruling that bitcoins are to be treated as property and that it was required to pay a capital gains tax on the sale of bitcoins. Some people even posted that "bitcoin is doomed" because of the ruling.

To prove just how silly it is for people to worry about this, I created this thread to call out the IRS to prove what I owe in capital gains due to bitcoin sales.

So if there are any IRS employees trolling this thread, you're welcome to pour over the blockchain and tell me what I owe you.  ;)

Who do you think you are? Some sort of cryptoana... oh.

I hope you get caught

Hahaha - I like it.

Did you report your gains and say the tax rate you need to pay is zero, or did you "forget" to report the gain?

is it really smart poking the buffalo with a stick?
i hope you are at least posting this behind TOR and if not that the tax man won't subpoena the forum to disclose your ip to make an example.

OP needs to learn, holding bitcoin is tax rate of ZERO. but holding fiat in his personal account after selling the bitcoin. he needs to pay tax on that fiat gain.

but i do agree people are silly when it comes to saying "bitcoin is doomed" and here is why

1. people will find other ways to not need FIAT, thus not needing to claim FIAT gains
2. the IRS wont care about useless / worthless items. IRS have categorized bitcoin, thus it has proven bitcoin to be a valid store of wealth.

Right, Cause they don't got bigger fish to fry.

IRS is a bloated lazy organization(like most if not all U.S. government agencies.)
They expect you to do all their work, then they have machines process it all.

They will likely only pursue the wealthiest of known bitcoin investors.
They likely only declared bitcoin taxable so they can get a cut of the silkroad auction.

You probably won't get caught as long as you don't have any large cash transactions related to BTC into or out of your bank account. If you do get audited and have large Bitcoin related transactions in your bank records, you will have to explain them, which means you're fucked.

In honor of this momentous day I hereby re-present my favorite bitcoin article of all times.
Bitcoin - The Libertarian Introduction
http://evoorhees.blogspot.com/2012/04/bitcoin-libertarian-introduction.html
Written by Erik Voorhees

They would still have to prove that I owe them something.

^ This... Bitcoins can be used like the stock market but unlike the stock market you are not required(if you use the right channels) to give your real name/etc.

You will be summarily executed for good measure. Even the specter of economic liberty cannot be allowed to exist under the totalitarian governments of the world.

According to Charlie Shrem, several govt agencies are monitoring here. 

Govt and law enforcement has hired people specifically for the task of monitoring these forums, reddit, and the IRC chat.

Hi you guys! 

careful crypto dude you might start an avalanche dancing with such glee and freedom ....

http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2012/05/14/the-network-effect/ (http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2012/05/14/the-network-effect/)

Well... Ross Ullbricht also used the TOR browser and he thought that the FBI would never track him down. Guess what. He was wrong. So don't be overconfident and no need to brag about this.

selling Bitcoin for Fiat

blasphemy

what a fool leave sleeping dogs alone

A cryptoanarchist bitcoiner with a bank account?

Blasphemy!

The only place I keep fiat is in my wallet. Banks are for suckers.

You don't have a bank account.  That means that you probably don't have a house, or a credit card, direct deposit, or children, or any of the other things that are part of normal life.  You are basically a monk of a pseudo-religion.  Your experience is so far from our own that any advice that you might have is likely to be useless or even dangerous to us.

Monks cannot provide a good example to the rest of us, because if we all lived like monks there would be no families and thus no future.  All purely monastic societies die sooner or later.

lol... that was classic. Strictly IMO, we are forced to depend upon the bankers, at least until Bitcoin gets more popular. Boycotting banks now will do no good for us, other than causing inconveniences.

lol

Huh? It's always been taxable, we were just uncertain as to how. Now that uncertainty is gone.

Not sure what you mean by "It's always been taxable". If you mean the IRS will always want to steal, then I'd agree. If you mean that they were always owed, then you're wrong. If you mean they've always been able to collect, then this thread proves that wrong.

No, I'm not. Had you actually talked with a tax professional prior to the IRS guidance (which, given the nature of this thread, you hadn't), you would have known that taxes were always owed on realized gains from bitcoin. Again, it was just unclear whether bitcoins were either currency or property.

Of course, when you take a profit in fiat you owe taxes.
Any other approach is dangerously illegal.

OP, if IRS decides to audit your fiat transaction history, then you are going to give some answers. You will be subpoenaed and so will the forum histories, your bank account services, etc.

Tax evasion is a serious crime. Bitcoin sales to fiat is taxable. One serious audit and your ass is goin to the big house for few years at least. Not to mention now you left a digital confession, then you are truly digging your own grave. The 'beyond shadow of doubt' isn't as foolproof as you think it is once you are actually in the courtrooom.

Too late for regrets now. Just pray you don't get audited. It's remarkably easy to track someone's irregularities if they look. Whether you are or aren't a big enough fish is irrelevant if they decide to audit you - you are leaving it all up to chance and have no control over it.

May be he is dealing with 100% cash, through localbitcoins. But remember the recent court case against two Bitcoiners who used cash for Bitcoin deals in Florida (Pascal Reid and Michell Espinoza).

Even if they are able to identify him, how will they prove he owns how many Bitcoins?

We don't know how much they know, so...
They might know a lot more than you think.  :o

well i'm glad i paid the IRS.....on 16k profit on miing with equip purchases..home office new business credit (immediate 50% off equip startup costs..hey i'm a farmer) etc etc
that tax lady almost got all of the 4k i should have spent ...i only  spent 550 extra bucks..

as the tax lady said i be a 'farmer' the gov't can't say that they will take 25% of gross income from me being a miner...and only way to pay that is to "mine" and
not have me be able to take off all this equip/home office/etc etc on my taxes

ie they can't have both ways if that is the only way i can make the 'gross income' they are taxing at 25%....so as a business
if next year it all tanks i can write it all off not just the 3k personal capital gains taxes per year....i expected but all of it

on 16k i paid 550 bucks back from the 2200 on my prev refund (amended my taxes)

so 1 yr and 1 day from Oct when i started mining i can cash out what i wish with only the 20% capital gains to worry about and be IRS friendly

and yes i assume the IRS rules will last till this DEC 2014 due to the Nov elections nothing will get passed (at best) till dec 2014 at the best imho

main point of being legal...my current bank (which screwed up my 2 wire xfers to knc so badly it took a month) just sent me a letter that they find it
suspicious that i did so many wire xfers (i did not it was the bank trying to fix it) ...if the bank i do stuff with can't even tell another branch of the bank
that they are the ones initiating wire xfers over 10k well....due to duplicate efforts to get them thru...well....any wire xfer you have done will
probably result in the same form letter i got asking 'wtf did you wire xfer $$$ to sseden and then anther from sweden come from ..ie prove you are not
a drug dealer kinda paper trail process ....whats a guy going to do....

so people that did an over 10k international wire xfer for your purchase in Sweden by knc ..expect a letter from your bank asking what it was used for
and if you got the 10k back from sweden expect another letter and if you cashed the $$$ out to move to another bank (in my case)
expect a 3rd letter ..fun fun...but i got to assume if they don't know enough to even look at my account on their bank and see that i paid and refunded on my statements..then I'm
fairly sure they have already 'posted" this off to the powers that be .....in case i'm a drug lord

so anyway i expect a lot of folk who did not pay taxes on their bitcoin this year are gonna be shocked when contacted by bank and then IRS
on what this 10k to sweden went for (also the 10k back if refunded i got both questions  asked of me) ie explain your paper trail on bitcoin
equip purchases and why you  reported no profit on such to the IRS..

i knew being paranoid would save my butt someday gonna be real interesting but mysefl all is legal as crap according to cpa lady...

me....i'm legal ....golden...new business.....and they can't touch me...went thru my cpa all legal...but not a lot of incentive to mine BTC this year at equip options/prices

I'd be freaking now if i would have gotten these form letters from the bank if I'd NOT paid my taxes ...I'd have been so scewed is likely

anyway maybe i just have bad luck but them 10k wire xfers hither and yon ..always bugged me at over 10k each or same bell goes off for refund imho

seems being chicken and doing btc 'legit' just saved me a lot of grief

results may vary this is just me and a lot of the perks was new home business writeoffs and persks


Searing

Do you ever wonder why so many bums end up begging on the street corner?
Really low "income" is one way to legally avoid taxes, but a low-life is not a fun life.
I have never done street begging, but I have thought about it, years ago.

Maybe OP lives somewhere the USA IRS doesn't have jurisdiction. Seems to me that quite a few countries are ignoring Bitcoin. Thus, profits are not taxable. These countries will likely do best in the new world (post internet) economy.

That's not how audits work, the OP is just hilariously naive. The burden is on you to produce your records and prove you paid your taxes and accounted for all your income, not them. They don't need to prove you own x bitcoins, just that there are discrepancies you can't account for. That's tax evasion, period. Being able to prove how much you owe is just a bonus. They might not be able to ding you for the full amount you actually owe if they can't find it, but that isn't going to be much consolation when you're sitting in your cell and Bubba decides you got a purty mouth. IRS isn't as dumb as some you seem to think, and I have no doubt they'll be looking to make examples of some folks. Won't be me, I'm straight and legal.

Well I don't know if thats a smart think to do (poke the beast and all) but without Gox records it's extremely hard and involves a lot of remembering. :-/

Are you trying to Poke a Beehive of angry bees?
http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2011/349/c/3/inside_out_beehive_by_teatimepanda-d4j76yy.jpg

...or a nest of sleepy Bumblebees?

http://bumblebeeconservation.org/images/uploads/Bpratorum_nest.JPG

Because you did not pay your taxes there is a road somewhere that will disappear.

Good God, how brainwashed are the American people?

Gas taxes pay for roads.

Property taxes pay for schools.

ANY public good you receive is paid for by taxes OTHER then the income tax.

100% of the income tax goes to pay interest on the debt (in other words, back into the Banksters pockets).

This was all done by design.  They turned you all into mind numb slaves.  And with the ignorance Elwar is displaying here you can understand how they got away with it.

You want to be a good American?  Keep your wealth in your community where it truly does benefit your fellow Americans.  And go to whatever means are necessary to keep it out of the hands of the Banksters.

Just as an aside, here is a story from the UK about how the authorities treat "unexplained" income here.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hereford-worcester-26977356

As a dedicated tax resister (10 years as a high earner without paying income tax) in the UK, it's an area I know fairly well. It's only a matter of time before they step up their game against me. Bitcoins are the best way to protect assets from the state.

It's a point of principle for me. I will not fund the state where I can avoid it.

No, all taxes pay for roads.

Without taxes, roads disappear and we fall into big holes in the ground if we want to leave the house.

Do you hate children?

Taxes pay for illegal wars. Taxes pay for police brutality. Taxes pay for unprecedented spying on innocent Americans.

The US, like all other advanced industrial economies, is a tax farm. It's citizens are obedient tax cows, being milked.

Elwar you are dead wrong!  Roads existed BEFORE the income tax.  Not 1 red cent of the income tax goes toward any public good.  The Government's own Grace commission proved this!

The ignorance you're displaying now only further make the case for how the Federal Reserve & the Banksters have been able to get away with such a fraud for so long.






"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free."

Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

I appreciate you taking the time to point out how silly the regulations are.  I tend to agree and the last thing on my mind is worrying about paying more taxes to the IRS especially for using BTC.

It'll take some time but I'm pretty sure the government will start regulation transactions within the US

Isn't spending bitcoins a tax event, meaning you must account for the fiat value of any gains regardless (i.e. fiat value of the goods or services you purchase minus fiat value of the bitcoins when you acquired them)?  The tax ruling was not just about converting BTC to fiat.

Nonsense, these are clearly calm, soft, cuddly bees.

The angry bees are hiding over here:

https://i.imgur.com/gpXUOvA.png

fuck me i forgot to report my $10 income from mining. Damn now i have to go sacrifice my soul to the IRS.

good point....if you are not throwing around 10k orders to knc in sweden...and your bank messes up 3x for a redo...kinda rings some bells in IRS land....

if it can't work as a 'legit' pt business (bitcoin) there are 'other' less hazardous things i can work at for fiat that can't be traced

gold/silver.....make an ebay store (IRS an't chasing them yet) etc..just don't need the hassle....and with the stupid wire xfers
to get the miners in the first place...well ...good thing i paid my taxes to IRS this year ..thats for sure....

but yeah it is up to usa citizen to report..'self-reporting" is the law in this country..ie you get in more trouble by NOT attempting to tell the IRS your taxes (or avoiding) then just paying your share imho

by the by both President Ronald Reagan and Obama would like to just HAVE the IRS figure out your taxes......was done that way 1 yr in calififornia 90% said they would do it that way...if you have the means to tell if i cheat you have the means to do the taxes....they do your taxes..you have options to do your own or sign off on what they say you own...it is shot down in congress each year....billions are made by CPA's and others on Tax Returns....but each year a new wrinkle in the tax code pops up in your favor and the IRS uses the tweak...suddenly they are your hero.....(weird concept..but then again we sent men to the moon with the computing power of my digital watch so go figure...)

but yeah....90% of all IRS forms now are done electronically i guess in this country it is doable according to the studies.....but a lot like bitcoin....banks don't like bitcoin..tax accountants sure don't like the above idea..have the income of accountants would go poof imho

Searing

You guys are ridiculous.

The IRS doesn't care how many bitcoins you have. They don't care about your frickin' blockchain!!!!! It's just like they don't care how many beanie babies you have stored in your garage! You can have 1,000,000 bitcoins in your wallet and the IRS won't care. You don't owe them a dime for that.

They will only see transactions going in and out of your bank accounts. If there is high activity or high dollar amounts, the IRS will question it. Or if they see big purchases you've made, the IRS will question it. That's it!

If you made $10 income from mining, it's just like having a lemonade stand and making $10. The IRS doesn't give a crap about it.

If you're able to keep everything you do in bitcoins and cash without going through any bank accounts or leaving any paper trails - you'll most likely fly under the radar to the IRS. But if you pay cash for anything large, like a car, it will be reported by the car dealer, then the IRS will look into everything you do. So, you CAN fly under the radar for most things, but live a real life, and you'll find out you can't. You can't get a loan unless you have a credit record, which means you need a bank account, etc. etc.

The IRS already knows who you are and what you owe, OP.

And the funniest part is... they are not going to do a single thing about it... because you will deliver yourself to them on a silver platter sooner or later.

This post serves as an important reminder that even in a community like ours, there are still a great many obedient tax cows.

Some people just don't want the hassle. They'd rather pay their taxes than worry that they'll receive a letter from good ol' IRS. Not all of us are ready to save the world, you know.

I paid my taxes, I even went back and amended my 2011 and 2012 returns for the coins I mined back then. It's not a political statement, it's a 'I don't want to go to jail' when I sell statement. I choose to live here, I'm going to abide by the current laws. Doesn't mean I necessarily agree with all of them, especially the mining tax, but whatever. I hope your decision works out for you, I really do.

how would they know if you kept your money earned in Fiat after trading from bitcoins? Do they have access to the trading accounts?

Not directly, but when that $100K hits your bank account, your bank will definitely let the IRS know about it. If you were then audited, you need to have a provable explanation on where that money came from. With the IRS they don't have to prove you guilty, you have to prove you're innocent.

Ok, so you guys don't pay taxes, because you want to save the world, not because you want to keep the money?
That's really nice of you ...

(No, wonder the USA is going to shit)

it's going to be entirely less funny when they do audit him and they have logs of him posting bragging about it on here and then he's trying to make an "oh I didn't know I had to do that" defense.

It's a lot easier to pay taxes now on the mined bitcoins from previous years when the bitcoins weren't worth much. It's only a few hundred dollars. Then, in the future, when cashing out the btc, I won't have to worry about questions like 'where did I get the btc' 'why didn't you report it'. etc. etc. I might never be audited or asked, but to me, it's so little that it makes me feel better. Like buying insurance for my laptop. I don't need to, but it makes me feel better.

A few hundred dollars is 'nothing' in the scheme of things. It all depends what a few hundred is worth to you. To me, it's less than 0.25% of my income, so I don't mind to feel safe. It's not worth it to risk a quarter of a percent on much larger hassles to fight the IRS or pay penalties down the road.

Jeez I only made $2400 this year before taxes. Then again im 15.

The dogs are not asleep. The dogs of government are rabid, and they have been devouring innocent people for a hundred years. It's time to put them down. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLCEXtpTNYU)

Anyone who is worried about the tax implications of holding cryptocurrency, don't be. Cryptocurrency is the END of fiat, capiche?

There is no going back. Nation-state scrip is a dead thing walking. The IRS is a dead thing walking. The US dollar is most CERTAINLY a dead thing walking.

Even capitalism itself is rapidly becoming a dead thing walking.

Is this original? Or an actual quote?

Both, since you just quoted it.

Related:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQdmsL147j0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLCEXtpTNYU

I think I can see where the divide is coming from. Older people with 'real' jobs who are making $50,000+ see no problems paying a few hundred in taxes. Younger people who don't make much see a few hundred as a 'lot' and want to avoid the taxes.

Or they've never paid taxes before, and don't understand why someone is trying to 'steal' their money. I felt the same way when I was younger. I only made $2.35 an hour. My paycheck was about $100 a week, and I had about $15 in taxes taken out of my paycheck each week. It seemed way beyond stealing to me. Then as I grew older, I learned how taxes worked, how the tax code worked, and although I still hate it, I understand more.

The IRS won't take even $1 out of an income of $2400.

 :D I'm sure you will find quite a few older people on this forum that have issue with paying taxes, regardless of amount.

Sure, I have 'issues' with paying taxes. But I understand the consequences of NOT paying taxes as well.

Again, I don't owe them anything. I EARN my money by adding value to the world. That value is legitimate by the fact that someone paid me VOLUNTARILY for my services. Any money I EARN is mine to do with as I wish, as by being its creator I have the authority over it.

Calling someone a "tax professional" and that person saying I owe doesn't make it so. Taxes are merely extortion by definition.

Grow up, Maged. You're a sheep, and a coward, and an accessory to extortion.

They'll get your money if you sold BTC for Fiat they could care less about your blockchain. Your post would suggest you reported it but claim to owe no capital gains until proven. Your problem is they already have where you under a rock when they declared it property?

+1.

Of course, it depends on who is doing the defining...

The USD is back by the taxes we all pay. So we "Americans" are just property (slaves) of the USA.

This is complete nonsense. I just want to give you an example. Part of the taxes which should be applied to your income is the social security tax, which is used to pay for current and future social security retirement benefits, benefits for widows and widowers, and disability benefits. What if nobody pays these taxes?

If you don't want to contribute to society, just go live on the Moon. if you are in the US and you benefit (or you may benefit in the future) of any kind of social service, then you should pay taxes. Otherwise, you seem like a grownup kid who lives in his parents' house and refuses to give a share of the rent because any money you earn is yours to do with as you wish.

I contribute to society every day by working in the private sector. That's why people pay me VOLUNTARILY for what I do - they value my services more than what they are paying me - so it is a net gain for them to do business with me.

By "social services", what you really mean are "services paid for with extorted funds".

If I hold a gun to your head, and told you to pay me and I'll build you a website, would that be right of me even if I actually did build you a website? Of course not. Calling a gang that does the same thing "government" doesn't change the morality.

I will use physical force to extract a percentage of your income from you.

I will use this money to fund wars, I will use this money to surveil you, I will use this money to fund police brutality.

I will also use some of this money to keep the tax cows content.

I am the state.


While the state maintains a monopoly on deciding how much of our money to steal and what to do with it, it deliberately prevents alternative solutions.

If you don't pay taxes, how do you even exist in this country?

How do you move around without using public roads or sidewalks?

Or are you a freeloader?

Guys, you should grow up. If you don't like this system, go live somewhere else.

If one day, I hope it will not happen, you will be disabled and you'll need disability benefits, you will remember this discussion and you will thank people paying taxes. If tomorrow you will loose your job, I hope it will not happen, you will thank people paying taxes for the check that government will give you to help you transit to a new job.

So how are they supposed to build and maintain roads, garbage collection, sewage and water treatment, schools, police, national defense, etc etc etc? What do you propose, going around asking everyone nicely to please contribute what they think is fair and then praying that it covers the bills?

I'm not saying that the current system is ideal, but without FORCING people to pay to support these things, nobody would pay nearly enough to even maintain the barest essentials as listed above.

When anarchists try to explain their philosophy to statists, this is about the most common response.

If I use violence to extract money and to maintain a monopoly on the building of roads, then defenders of that regime can say "if the state didn't steal your money, we wouldn't have roads".

If I ensure people are defenceless, then defenders of the regime can say "if the state didn't steal your money, who would pay the police to protect you?"

The answer's aren't rocket science, but without reimagining society, most statists struggle to get their head around it. Most anarchists aren't simply saying stop paying taxes and leave everything as is. They are saying "what would happen if we lived in a world where violent coercion didn't exist?" "What would happen if instead of extorting money on threat of violence, we let individuals to work together to form communities, and let communities of communities work together?"

Society as it exists today is a symptom of the state.

Ross Ullbricht used his real name on a google account....  It wasn't a flaw in TOR....

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/10/how-the-feds-took-down-the-dread-pirate-roberts/

"A key break came when the agent found an October 11, 2011 post by Altoid, looking for an "IT pro in the Bitcoin community" and directing all inquiries to "rossulbricht at gmail dot com."

That's how it works now. Communities decide what things they need by voting for sewers, road, libraries, schools, etc. Community members pay for these through taxes. And if they don't pay, they lose their homes / go to jail.

How do you expect your 'communities working together' to work when people there don't contribute their fair share? Just let them get away with it? Your community will crumble really fast.

As a kid, riding your bike around the neighborhood, it seems that Mr. Smith can fix the roads, Mr. Jones can fix the sewers, Mary can teach the children, Jennifer can run the library, etc. etc. All working together in harmony. This is not capitalism - this is communism. I'm not for that. Some jobs are harder than others, thus people get compensated differently, thus people's commitment to the community is different, thus taxing a percentage of your earnings is a way to solve this.

So what would happen? What are the answers?

So in other words, communities can voluntarily decide what to do, within strictly defined limits, and if you don't agree with it, we will use violence against you to ensure conformity.


Do you need to be goverened? Do you need to be told what to do? Do you sit idle unless your master's lash is at your back?

You're still viewing anarchistic societies through a statist prism.

I don't know the answers. But I do know the right questions, which puts me a step in front of most people.

What I do know is what happens when we have incredibly powerful entities maintaining their grip on power through violent coercion so they can farm their "citizens" for profit. And it's pretty terrible.

Tax dodgers beware: IRS could be watching your social media
The IRS is said to be data mining Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and other sites for info that could come handy in audits.

acebook, Instagram, and Twitter have all become places where people post intimate details about their lives: vacation photos, work successes, buying a new house, car, or other cool stuff.

However, this information is also up for grabs by the Internal Revenue Service.

The taxman is reportedly using data from social media on people who file fishy-seeming taxes or don't file at all, according to Marketplace. The IRS loses roughly $300 billion per year to tax evasion; and in times of budget cuts, with a smaller staff, the agency has allegedly turned to both data mining and data crunching.

In its quest to find and audit tax dodgers, the IRS is said to use online activity trackers to sift through the mass amounts of data available on the Internet, according to Marketplace. This data is then added to the information the agency already has on people, such as Social Security numbers, health records, banking statements, and property.

http://www.cnet.com/news/tax-dodgers-beware-irs-could-be-watching-your-social-media/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Be smart and apply the first 2 rules on this forum... Not all here are for your best interest, especially when creating threads about "how many bitcoins you own?", etc...
http://youtu.be/MPITE_Ine-c

LOL

There are people who get it, and people who don't.

Look at the federal budget for last year.  What money went where?
Look at your state budget for last year.  What money went where?
Look at your county budget for last year.  What money went where?
Look at your city/municipal budget for last year.  What money went where?

Now,

Look at your paychecks last month.  Add them up.  How much did you spend that month in federal taxes?  How much did you spend that month in state taxes?
Look at your property tax bills last year.  Add them up.  Divide by 12.  How much did you spend for property taxes per month?
Look at your city/municipal (if applicable) tax bills last year.  Add them up.  Divide by 12.  How much did you spend for city/municipal taxes per month?
Figure out how much gas you bought last month, and if you can, how much of that was taxed?
Look at everything you bought last month and add up the sales tax.
Cell phone?  Electricity? Land line?  ISP?  look at last month's bills.  Add up the taxes and government "fees".
Did you buy a house?  How much did you pay in taxes at closing?  Refinance?  Same question.  Sell a house?  Cha-ching!
Park at a meter?  Use mass transit?  Pay tolls?  Get caught driving without a seatbelt, or expired inspection?
Did I miss anything?

Add all that up and figure out how much you pay per month in taxes.  If you're like me, it's not quite your mortgage payment, but it's waayyy more than your car payment.  Also consider what those businesses pay in taxes where you spent your money.

Now think how many times you used government services last month and were satisfied with the outcome.  Were your roads clean, clear, and pothole free?  Did any local politicians get in trouble for misusing funds?  Go to a park?  How much litter did you see?  Look at the news, is there a town struggling with crime nearby, meanwhile when a cop is driving behind you, do YOU feel nervous?  Are you living in a town struggling with crime while a neighboring town has cops that ticket people for jaywalking?  Know anyone who works in government that is completely worthless?  The examples of government waste can go on and on and on...

BUT...you didn't do all of that did you?  I bet you didn't even read my entire post.  If you can't even be bothered to read a few paragraphs and consider their worth, then how can you be trusted to have a completely formed and well-thought out opinion on anything?  Much less an opinion on something that affects us all.

The simple fact is this:  The more money we as citizens make, the more our government can waste.  I would feel much better paying for people with disabilities, roads, etc. which would cost me next to nothing if I didn't also have to pay for inefficient, ineffective government.

That is basically a complete dodge of the question. Essentially you are saying "oh no that's not what we're saying" but then you fail to explain how you propose these things would get funded. The bottom line is we all know that everyone talks a big generous talk but when it comes down to it, no one is going to voluntarily pay to support many of the things they use and depend upon every day unless they ARE forced to. People are cheap bastards.

The error in your thinking is that you are expecting an anarchist society to look like society today, just without the government. It won't.

I can't tell you how a road from A to B would be built, because it would be an organic process. Who wants it? Who needs it? Who is willing to design it? To build it? To contribute to it?

How did this thread get hijacked?  Oh....anarchists....

OP's name is cryptoanarchist.

It's still relevant

Not everyone has the option to "go live somewhere else".
What are those people supposed to do if they don't like to pay for corrupt BS?

They're supposed to get educated about the issues at hand, vote, write to their congress members, etc etc.

Honestly one of the biggest issues is people don't care or don't really know about the issues that they claim to be pissed off about. I love when they do surveys and find that for example 30% of people support one side, 25% support the opposite, and the rest don't know don't care or don't have any better idea.

Pissing in the wind...

To quote a mentor of mine...

“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.”
― Richard Buckminster Fuller


We have that model now folks.  It's called crypto currencies.  Fucking use them.  And ignore the 3 letter agencies that will use every fear tactic at their disposal to keep you in their matrix.

Yep, insert cryptocurrencies into the existing reality and this is what you get.

Instead of building a new economy around Bitcoin, the pump and dumpers, the speculators, the schemers, and all the other small time players thought it would be a great idea to fight the existing reality..

Your quote kind of backfired but no worries.

Good Lord, are you really that short-sighted?

And that blind to everything good about crypto currencies?

Anyone can cherry pick all that is bad.  But only reveals your ignorance for not including all that is good as well.

Are you really that ignorant?  Or are you just another government shill?

All those "problems" will get sorted out.  In the meantime crypto currencies even in their current "flawed" state are vastly superior to the legacy banking system, and have more then made the current model obsolete.


...But go ahead and hallucinate otherwise.  The cat is out of the bag.  Your 100 year scam is crumbling by the day.  You and your 3 letter agencies are fucked on this one. 

I paid my taxes, both income for mining + capital gains. I was absolutely thrilled to do it. I never would've figured that bitcoin would make anything, it was originally intended to be a hobby. It's a great boon I made anything at all.

Paying taxes to live and enjoy one of the best areas in the world is a non-issue for me.

Exactly. People come from just about every other country on the planet to be here yet a lot of people born here just sit around and complain. Things aren't perfect anywhere and human nature includes some negative tendencies so of course we have some issues in the current system. But given the choice I wouldn't rather be anywhere else - you can pry my eagle passport from my cold dead hands lol.

OP, if you have an issue with the tax system (I agree we get taxed a lot, perhaps too much) then do something constructive about it. What you are doing is akin to the tenants that say "well I won't pay my rent this month because the landlord hasn't fixed XYZ in the apartment." Wrong approach dude.

Cryptocurrency won't be the end of fiat, it will be alongside fiat just that fiat usage will gradually be reduced. Just like the emergence of the internet and email, we now simply send emails rather than letters, but still for certain occasions we'd still lick up a stamp and stick it in a corner for good old-fashioned snail mail, for whatever reason.

Back to OP's subject, I suspect the government of the USA is still trying to figure out what to make of Bitcoin (or rather, how to best capitalise on it). Is it a commodity or a currency? Is it both or neither? But one thing governments around the world(the greedy ones at least) do know for bloody sure, is to tax first, everything else later.

They even consider trading bitcoins for bitcoins to be a taxable event.
It is absurd.
I commend the op and anybody with the balls to refuse their outrageous demands.

Taxing bitcoins is like taxing maplestory mesos or any in-game currency, it's silly.

Good post.

I own the entire Moriarty Bitcoin Network of 50+ websites including BitPlastic.com, BitLaunder.com, etc ... we do transactions of over 100 bitcoins daily throughout the network.

Guess how much tax we paid?

0.00

The IRS is the biggest scam in history.  The Federal Reserve can print all the money it needs.  The only reason it taxes the population is to keep the middle class in check. 

My network of sites reports transactions to no government whatsoever!  And we do not maintain records on our customers nor verify identities. If you use CoinBase or CaVirtEx, the US and Canadian governments will know exactly how much money you spent on Bitcoins. And eventually you will get a knock on the door.

Stay safe.

Dr. Michael Moriarty

OP - I would invite you to write a crypto-anarchist/libertarian post on Bitcoin taxes for my magazine, http://BitForum.org

It seems you have some interesting insights and we would be honored to have you as a Guest Author.

Dr. Michael Moriarty

This post made me laugh so hard I nearly shit myself.

This WAS meant as a joke right?

That is a rather amusing rant.  I didn't have a bank account for a little while so I guess I was categorized as some kind of useless degenerative monk who may or may not be dangerous to others lol.  So glad I got that new account phew that was close.

You forgot to factor in the people that realize both sides are corrupt. Vote, write to congress members, you can't be serious right?

You sir are a criminal and should be thrown into the deepest darkest dungeon and feed to the lions.  You terrorist, how dare you not pay the man more of your hard earned money for no good reason.

Thank God someone's saying what everyone is or should be thinking:

http://bitforum.org/with-tax-day-fast-approaching-in-the-united-states-the-subject-of-bitcoin-and-taxation-has-been-all-over-the-news-lately-over-the-past-several-years-bitcoin-miners-investors-and-startups-have-enj/

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=562282.0

Keep the discussion going.  Enough of the lemmings see others standing up they'll join in too.

I think this nice and clear calculator may be appropriate for this discussion.

http://act.one.org/sign/fy15_budget/

If you don't want to click on the link, here is an example of someone who makes $60k gross per year of profits.

Of this amount, this guy has paid $11,125 in taxes and here is how these taxes are going to be used:

$2,614.38 for social security
$1,891.25 for national defense
$1,657.63 for unemployment
$1,579.75 for medicare
$1,368.38 for health
$934.16 for other expenses
$678.73 for interests on US debt
$111.25 on foreign assistance

I myself am happy to contribute to all these things. I would like to reduce national defense but I would not put a $0 there.

Another brainwashed apologist for the Federal Reserve scam...

Not one red cent of the income tax goes to those things other then interest on the debt... the fraudulent debt created by design to enslave you.

P.S.  Don't forget to include in your list...

Baseless, unfounded wars of aggression
Government sponsored torture
Government kill lists
TSA
Ubiquitous government spying of every detail of your life
Unending terrorizing of sovereign countries through relentless drone attacks
The shredding of the Constitution

Hell, you can even be jailed now for collecting rainwater on your own land!

Wake the $%^^ up.  Every dollar you send them is used only to further enslave you.  And further a globalist, anti-human agenda.

If you support that, then by all means, send them your wealth.

But if you actually do have a moral conscience, and actually do want a future for your children with some modicum of freedom and prosperity, then use every tool at your disposal acting out non-violent civil disobedience.

Don't enable that monster any longer folks.

Well, it happened OP.

I took my garbage out to the road yesterday and nobody came to pick it up.

I called the government today and asked why they did not pick up my garbage. They told me "some guy didn't pay taxes on his bitcoins so we don't have enough money to pick up garbage"

Thanks a lot.

I wish government wasn't the only entity that could provide garbage service. Yet, according to some people, it apparently is.

Elwar are you ignorant, or just plain brainwashed beyond hope?  Or perhaps too apathetic to do some research.

Are you so ignorant as to really believe the income tax pays for garbage collection????

Nope, city taxes do that...

(eye roll) Another brainwashed lemming.
 

Have you considered Elwar may be using the literary technique sometimes referred to as  sarcasm?

I wish that were true... but taken in context with Elwar's other posts it's painfully apparent Elwar is hopelessly brainwashed or just plain ignorant... and as misery loves company uses this forum to further that brainwashing/ignorance on others.

What is this sarcasm thing you speak of? Will the government provide this for me with the help of taxes?

Nor should you have.  Why so they can use it to start more wars or claim it goes to schools and roads even though both are in the worst shape ever.  Or maybe so they can use it to arm themselves against the citizens?

I am really fascinated by this Thread. There is so much BS going on here.
In the end, all you "anarchist" just want to keep your money.
Do you "anarchists" know, what Common Goods are? I don't think, I saw that term in this thread.
Let me ask one question:
Besides not paying taxes(because government is bad), what do you do to change the system?
It should be clear for everybody with some brain, that just not paying taxes wouldn't change anything, shouldn't it?

You should clean that bullshit off your mirror, then.

Anarchists want to SPEND 100% of their OWN money. Not have it taken at the barrel of a gun, then spent by evil, sociopath pieces of shit who feign having IQs below that required to complete toilet hygiene tasks without daily assistance/reeducation.

Did you earn the money without using any infrastructure the government provides? If not, it is not 100% your money.
That's the same as a manager, who just stops paying his employees because he thinks, he did all the work and should get 100% of the gains.
You "anarchists" are not better, than this asshole capitalists.

I use BTC.
I run a 1TB freenet node.
I pirate things.
I piss in polices coffee.
I advocate free thought when possible and encourage individuals to stop thinking like lemmings.
I break many laws.
I contribute nothing, and take everything.
I hope and pray for the day that the mountain of debt becomes a vertical wall and the U.S. falls on its fat ass.
I encourage others to do all of the above.

Fear of the law makes you a slave.
Materialism makes you a slave.
Lack of education makes you a slave.
Inability to form your own thoughts/opinions makes you a slave.
Gluttony makes a slave.
Sexual immorality makes you a slave.
Laziness/sloth makes you a slave.
Laws confine/restrict/punish human liberty.
Government/Civilization enslaves the human race.

And still people in here, think they are free, because they keep as much money for themselves as possible.

Nobody is truly free.
Freedom is a nearly unattainable ideal.

The way to have freedom is to be outside the jurisdiction of any government.
Career Criminals have true freedom, they do as they please.
They exercise their freedom until another human exercises the freedom to imprison them.
Most of us cannot/will-not take our rebellion to outlaw level.

A truly free world/country would be bloody.

Or come to the realization that you answer to no one.  Not to any government.  Not to any external authority.

You answer to natural law only.

How many governments are using fear & intimidation to get you to break those natural laws, forcing you to be party to killing & torture?

Doesn't matter if they forced you to or not, there's still a karmic price on your head for enabling that killing & torture.

Consider how much your spinelessness, falling prey to their fear & intimidation, is really costing your soul.

Consider what you're enabling next time you so gleefully write that check to the illegal & outlaw collection agency for the fraudulent Federal Reserve.

There is nothing good that has come from the Federal Reserve scam... only pain & suffering for all of humanity.

Any moral human would resist with all their heart & soul enabling such a system in any way.  Even if that means risking jail, torture, or even death.

How flawed can your logic be?  Did you bother to read that before posting?

We all have our freewill.  And with freewill comes the responsibility to accept the consequences of all freewill choices. Nobody has the right to violate anyone's freewill.  Do so & you most certainly should go to prison.

Your logic trying to paint true free men/women as criminals could not be more flawed & idiotic.

Only courageous humans who refuse to answer to anyone but their own conscience, always respecting the freewill of others, & the Golden Rule are truly free.  (The exact opposite of any criminal.)

Yes, because tax revolts are so un-American and never achieve anything ....


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Tea_Party (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Tea_Party)

It is ALWAYS about the money you fools, taxes are at the root of the evil of a coercive state. Only criminals steal under the colour of threat of violence.

The difference is, that you guys don't officially declare, that you stop paying taxes. You are not a resistance movement, you are just some cowards hiding in the shadow and hope to don't get caught.
Comparing yourself to real revolutionaries just shows, that you have no idea, what you are talking about.

You don't get it Turvarya.... Crypto currencies have changed the game.

There is no need to "resist" anything.   Simply ignore them & conduct business outside of that corrupt system... in spite of their threats & intimidation tactics. 

Good luck 3 letter agencies finding & seizing crypto assets!  They are powerless against this new paradigm.  Fear is the only card they have left to keep the spineless lemmings compliant.  Soon enough the lemmings too will realize the game has changed.

Non-violent civil disobedience has always been the most effective agent of change against corrupt & evil systems... and always takes courage.  Calling us cowards proves that YOU have no idea what you're talking about.

Ehm, I think you got it wrong. On every paycheck that I receive, sums are withdrawn for social security, medicare, etc.

So, what exactly is the difference between you guys and a company like Google, that also have it's ways to avoid taxes? You "anarchists" do the same as this "bad capitalists".
Your "civil disobedience" just benefits yourself, so don't act like some kind of freedom fighter. You are not going to change this "corrupt & evil systems". You are just making it worse for people who can't use the same tricks as you.
Spread as much BS as you want, but as long as you can't show, how you make the world a better place for other people than you, you are just an ego manic coward.

Spoken like a true government shill.  

If you believe in & support what that system is doing, go ahead...send them your wealth.  Hell, send them double if you feel it benefits the world so much.

But.. If you send in that check out of fear of what might happen if you didn't, then who's the coward!

Show me one benefit the Federal Reserve scam has done for the world.

Nothing but endless wars, torture, mayhem... and the economic raping of the true value producers of the world have resulted from that system.

How do I & others who refuse to support that system benefit the world?  If the answer to that isn't painfully obvious then you're brainwashed beyond hope.  

And for the record, since the corporate tax only goes to fund the military industrial establishment, I fully support google, apple, & any other company doing absolutely everything in their power to avoid enabling that monster too.

Any government "benefit" any American receives does not come from the illegal & immoral income tax & the Federal Reserve scam that is behind it.  Your government's own Grace commission proved that.

You government shills gotta get more creative.  You're using the oldest tactics in the book.  Nobody but the mindless lemmings buys those tired tactics.

Do you really think, that your government is spending less on wars, when you don't pay taxes? They don't. They are spending less on schools, infrastructure, etc.
Btw. I am not an US-citizen and I am not with any government.

Freewill is god given at time of birth, it is called free agency in the bible.
Freedom is not equal to freewill.

Freedom is something those who I am descended came here for, we don't have it.
Laws are not just to protect others, not in this country or any other.
Laws supress freedom in genral. For example the government prohibits certain harmful substances from being used while allowing other equally as harmful substances. I found a site (http://www.krusch.com/real/unconstitutional.html) that lists quite a few unconstitutional laws.

Sage you clearly are having your time of the month based off your posts here.
You are ignored, have a nice life.
Bottom line, Free agency is God given, Freedom is a lack of human rights violating laws which no country currently has.
According to your logic even slaves (https://www.freetheslaves.net/SlaveryMap) have/had freedom, They have free will. They can refuse to work and "accept the consequences," they can run away and "accept the consequences."

Schools are paid for by property taxes.

Roads are paid for by gas taxes.

Not one red cent of the income tax goes to benefit any Americain in any way.  100% goes back into the hands of the Banksters, where it issued to further foment wars that they profit from.

And the only way they can get away with it is because they have so many ignorant lemmings like you to promote the myths you're espousing.

Every penny from the property taxes goes to Schools? Every penny from the gas taxes goes to Roads? There is no other money source for Schools and no other source for Roads?
That is one of the most stupid things, I have ever heard. In Austria we have the saying: Geld hat kein Mascherl. Money doesn't have a bow tie. That means you can't trace every penny. If they don't get enough money with income taxes, they just take it from the gas or property taxes.

Don't drop the soap  ;D

Nope, They take it from new debt.
The combined amount of taxes is far less than the U.S. expenses.

Seven pages in and no one has proven that I owe the IRS anything for capital gains.

That's because they have no idea what private keys I possess.

What more proof do you need that this ridiculous IRS ruling is completely without teeth??

I know, that my government takes it from the schools(and we also have increasing debts). I can't believe, that US-government doesn't do the same thing.

You have to tell us something more to give you an answer. Tell us something about the way you get your income and the way you spend your money. For example, are you paid for your work in BTC? How do you convert BTC in USD for anything you need to pay that does not accept BTC? How do you pay rent, electricity, internet, etc?

There may be a loophole in your process.

For example, let's say you provide web design services. I hire you and I pay you with BTC. Your part of the transaction is transparent to IRS but I will deduct your payment to the IRS as my business' expenses. If I am audited, I will tell the IRS that I paid you in BTC and the IRS will ask you where those BTC are and it's your burden to give them this info.

Another example. You have a bunch of BTC but you have to pay your rent in USD. You need to convert those BTC in USD. Of course, if you use an exchange platform such as Coinbase, they will get you. Maybe you will get cash selling BTC to someone for USD. That someone may be another loophole for you. Also, you pay rent and your landlord puts that rent in his income. If he is audited, he will show IRS that he received cash from you and IRS will then ask you where you got that cash from.

In summary, as long as your whole life is not in BTC, you may get caught because of third parties you have interacted with.

A family member.
A gift from a friend.
Found it on the street.
Some random person on the street handed it to him.
https://topsyfarms.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/2012_06_01-25739_001.jpg
OBEY!!!
https://cdn.empowernetwork.com/user_images/post/2012/10/01/2/a6/ac8c/540_293_resize_20121001_2a6ac8ca9973f5ef53b0af5597d26d0d_jpg.jpg

Ah ah, sure, and the IRS will say "Oh, ok, fine, we understand". I want to see him trying to explain where he gets monthly cash to pay for rent  :)

Anyhow, I don't wish anything bad to happen to our fellow Bitcoin lover (we are all Bitcoin lovers, let's remember that). It's just that I think that as long as your whole payment history is not in BTC, the IRS can still catch you.

You work for the IRS botolo86?

Absence of evidence, is not evidence of abstinence, true.

That said, A person can say whatever they want, unless the I.R.S. has some proof otherwise they either have to investigate further or let it go.
A friend/family member/stranger who would give a person rent month after month is very rare, the rarity of it does not make it unfathomable.

You do realize the I.R.S. is more like Robin Hood in this situation.

As much as I dislike the government/I.R.S., the OP is probably middle to upper class and if he/she paid the taxes it would be used in part for Social Security which goes to the elderly and disabled.
Those who are not disabled/elderly and simply choose not to work probably don't deserve handouts.

If he/she is dodging taxes he/she probably isn't giving anything to any charity.

Let me say that I find this discussion pretty interesting. One additional concern that I have on the position of OP is the following one.

We can follow the belief of OP or have other opinions but I think we all want Bitcoin to succeed for different reasons. My concern is that if Bitcoin is seen as having as a main advantage the one to allow people to dodge taxes and hide their money, Bitcoin will fail because Government will highly regulate it. Unfortunately, Government has ways to completely kill Bitcoin, if they want to. They can start heavily taxing miners, they can ask for licenses for exchange platforms, they can expand criminal laws (terrorists may exchange money via Bitcoin), etc. And most likely the position of Government would be shared by most of the people: "what is this new tool that allows you to hide money? Why do you need to hide money? Do you have something to hide? Are you a terrorist? Are you a mafia guy?", etc.

We should focus, instead, on the technology aspect of Bitcoin, show to people why Bitcoin can benefit everyone: lower transaction fees mean that stores may give discounts, instant transfer means that you can send money to your family in another state or country with no delay, etc.

Don't be so damn ignorant.  No matter what the Bitcoin community does, central banks will use every tool at their disposal to kill or co-opt Bitcoin.

It's in direct competition with fiat.  Without fiat, they can't steal the wealth off the world.

There is no appeasing them.  

There is no trying to abide by their new & retroactively applied regulations.  

The only solution is to simply ignore them!

And one of the biggest selling points of Bitcoin & crypto currencies is the ability to ignore them, conducting business outside of the fiat scam system.

SHOUT it from the housetops.  There's now a way out!  

Any intelligent person will quickly see the advantage to taking that option.  The dependent & brainwashed lemmings will spout the kind of rhetoric you're spouting now....desperately clinging to a dying paradigm & keep whatever "benefits" they feel that dying system gives them.

Make no mistake about it, the cat is out of the bag.  Crypto currencies are an idea who's time has come.  They cannot shut down Bitcoin anymore then they can shut down Bittorrent.

All they can do is use toothless threats & intimidation to bluff the mindless lemmings into complying.

Get on the right side of history.  Embrace it.  Ignore the old dieing system.  

Yeah, because rape is really funny when it happens to a man right? hahahaahahaha

That is an apt handle you have chosen.

Ehmmm....This is not quite right as you think it is. (http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/470687/Get-pregnant-for-benefits-Outrage-as-shameless-mum-tells-daughter-have-baby-for-welfare)

The system is rotten at its core.

Robin Hood stole from the rich and gave to the poor.
The U.S. Government taxes the rich and gives to the poor.
We could embrace the alternative to social welfare, that is desperation/prostitution/robbery/muggings.
People will be robbed by poor/disabled people and they will outnumber by MANY.
The number of poor/disabled would be greater than all the jails combined could hold.
Also, jails cost money too, it would just shift the social welfare.
It is important to keep in mind, People who get Social Security paid into it, and are simply receiving what they paid for.
The U.S. government borrowed from Social Security when times were good now they are paying it back when times are less good.

The I.R.S and Social Security are in the US.
The link is a UK related article.
Whenever a good thing exists people will always abuse/misuse it.
The internet is a good example, it is a great thing that provides knowledge/opportunities and people use it for evil.

There, fixed that for you..

Right, You all are so certain.
For the most part new debt is used to pay old debt.
Taxes go to alot of things.
Repayment of the ssa debt is one of them.
The government shoulda kept their hands out of the ssa cookie jar.

Another government shill spouting mis-information.  How do you shills sleep at night?  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Grace_Commission

"With two thirds of everyone’s personal income taxes wasted or not collected, 100 percent of what is collected is absorbed solely by interest on the federal debt and by federal government contributions to transfer payments. In other words, all individual income tax revenues are gone before one nickel is spent on the services [that] taxpayers expect from their government."

Do you really think anything has changed?

Not one red cent of the income tax goes to benefit any American whatsoever.  It goes back into the banksters pockets.  All by design.  

...Where it is used to foment wars for profit...  

That's what central banks do... enslave nations with debt through fomenting, then funding wars.  That's what you're supporting when you send in that check to the private criminal organization known as the Federal Reserve & their collection agency the IRS.

botolo86 is a government shill working for the IRS.

Take anything he says in that light.

HAHA...I missed that because I already had him ignored. Busted yourself, botolo!  ;D

Somehow my roads and bridges are getting repaired, snow is being plowed, my library is open and lending books and videos, my water works, my sewer works, my court systems are functioning, police are responding when needed, fire engines are putting out fires, etc. etc.

If none of that is being paid for, then I guess I'm happy everyone is working for free for me.  ::)

Roads/bridges are paid for by gas taxes.

Sewer & library is paid for by city taxes.

Water is paid for by you.  Did you miss your water bill?

Local police, fire, and courts are all paid for by city/state taxes.

Not one red cent of the income tax goes toward any of those things.  Another brainwashed lemming!

The stupidity of people is breathtaking. These morons think that roads and bridges require extorting money out of people or no one would build them. Nevermind that the free market has put a smartphone in everyones' pockets, or that the free market can bring us food from all over the planet, we need government to extort money from us to pave roads?

The free market can create, market, and sell to even the poorest of people smartphones, but these morons think that without government, no one could could figure roads out??

Seriously, you statist morons embarrass yourselves. Its to the point that the rest of us need to consider you as a food source because you're too stupid to be considered human beings anymore.

Interesting, you are referring to the results of a commission that presented its report more than thirty years ago. It's a little bit old evidence.

Just to clarify how taxes work, here is some additional info for you, released by the National Priorities Project, an American non-governmental organization founded in 1983. NPP’s mission is to make federal budgets transparent and accessible so that citizens can engage in overseeing and influencing how their tax dollars are spent.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Priorities_Project

According to the report total federal tax revenues in fiscal year 2014 are projected to be $3 trillion. These revenues come from three major sources: income taxes paid by individuals, accounting for 46 percent of all tax revenues; payroll taxes paid jointly by workers and employers, accounting for 34 percent; and corporate income taxes paid by businesses, making up 11 percent.

Source: http://nationalpriorities.org/budget-basics/federal-budget-101/revenues/

In fiscal year 2014, the federal government will spend around $3.8 trillion. [...] The U.S. Treasury divides all spending into three groups: mandatory spending and discretionary spending and interest on debt. Interest on debt, which is much smaller than the other two categories, is the interest the government pays on its accumulated debt, minus interest income received by the government for assets it owns.

This is where the spending will go:

https://i.imgur.com/yTJT9JZ.png

Source: http://nationalpriorities.org/budget-basics/federal-budget-101/spending/alt/?utm_expid=84498401-5.1T2lB6d5SEmMcoN-3M_tZA.1&utm_referrer=http%3A%2F%2Fnationalpriorities.org%2Fanalysis%2F

If you want, you can also see how taxes were used in previous years, by accessing the public budget that you can find on the pages of the same website.

In any case, I am not going to participate in this debate anymore, OP in his last post showed how little respect he has for the freedom to express your own thoughts. I was trying to create a constructive debate together with other users here but reading about "the stupidity of people", "morons", "food source" simply demonstrate how little you guys are interested in a fair exchange of ideas and opinions.

You are well on the way to a Detroit moment ...

mostly those taxes go into public pension funds, that have actually been siphonoed off by "financial services".

What botolo86, don't feel respected? (tear tear)  Not use to "citizens" not bowing to your every word?

God forbid they question your propaganda?

God forbid they don't cower at your fear & intimidation tactics!

God forbid they call out you & your shilling for what it is!

Yep the Grace commission was 30 years old.  Since then debt created by the illegal & fraudulent Federal Reserve has only exploded.

So too has the interest payment!  Reaching the dangerous tipping point of more then 100% GDP.

If you don't understand the significance of that botolo86, then perhaps you should ask your masters.  Or maybe actually do your own thinking & research outside of your masters approved boundaries.

It's laughable that you would use the Presidents proposed total spending to justify the the income tax.

…KNOWING that not ONE RED CENT OF THE INCOME TAX goes to ANY of that "proposed" spending other then interest on the debt to the frauds at the Federal Reserve.

There are actually LEGAL & CONSTITUTIONAL ways the federal government can fund itself.  The income tax is NOT one of them!

How do you shills sleep at night?  Knowing the pain & suffering your organization has caused in the world?  Do they brainwash you so much that you don't use an ounce of intellect or reason any longer?

...Or do they just buy you off, offering so much wealth ethics be damned?

You're either willfully ignorant or you've sold your soul botolo86.  In either case shills like you deserve no respect or attention.

what pisses me off about that pie chart if it is accurate is the 33%. That is mostly bullshit wasted money. I have been paying into SS for over a decade and I put a massive amount into my own retirement accounts myself, 33% for a support network and welfare and unemployment (which are being GROSSLY abused) is too fucking much.

OMG, you guys simply can't read. I told you that you can check the public balance of past years on the same website, all checked by this non-governmental entity. Guys, you can argue what you want but if the government publishes the balance and it's checked by a non-governmental entity, if you want to counter argue you have to bring evidence. Bring me an analysis of some reliable entity that has checked the balance of government of 2012 or 2013 and proves what you say. Then we will talk.

"Proposed" spending as "evidence" to justify the illegal income tax?

The federal government has a lot of sources of revenue.  Some are actually legal & constitutional.  To use those sources of revenue and "proposed" spending of that revenue to justify the ILLEGAL & IMMORAL income tax just goes to show just how flawed your logic is.

Not one red cent of the illegal income tax goes to benefit any American in any way!

Wake up SHILL!

You're on the wrong side of history!  The paradigm has changed.  Your 101 year scam is over.  You & the organizations you shill for are a dieing dinosaur.

I'd just ignore the government paid shill, Sage. His time is up and its better that he doesn't know it.

@Sage and cryptoanarchist

You just repeat the same BS over and over again, without showing any evidence, besides a 30 year old report.
It doesn't become true, just because you repeat it over and over again.
It doesn't become true, just because you call other people shills.

People like you are the worst. Practical stealing from others but still claim to be on a moral high ground.
I really hope you guys get caught, it would be better for the world.
I am out.

turvarya, you really need "evidence" that city taxes pay for your garbage bill.  That gas taxes pay for your roads.  That property taxes pay for schools (all of which the private sector could do for better & far cheaper... but that's another discussion).

...your arguments justifying the income tax could not be more pathetic & baseless.

It's YOU repeating the same tired & baseless argument to justify the illegal, immoral income tax.  

Show me one single benefit you or any other American receives as a consequence of the income tax!

It's the Federal Reserve scam behind the income tax that is raping & stealing the wealth from the true value producers of the world.  Not I.

...And they get away with it because of apathetic brainwashed lemmings who spout this baseless propaganda.

In my opinion here are a lot of older people that have issue with paying taxes, regardless of amount.

I already told you, that I am not a US-citizen. You are really a special kind of ignorant.

Then hardly qualified to be commenting on a system that you're obviously completely ignorant about!  

Do humanity a favor & delete the propaganda you pummeled on them that is -- by your own admission -- based in complete ignorance.

...Who's the special kind of ignorant turvarya!

One single benefit: Medicare. I know tons of American over 65 years old that receive their health benefits via Medicare. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicare_(United_States)#Financing

My dad pays a massive Medicare premium that is hardly affordable on a regular basis. Taxes don't fucking benefit Medicare, they're just flushed down the drain.

Medicare, Medicaid (for poor people), Obama Care, these are just some examples of money coming from federal income tax which are used to help people. Sage said "nobody receives help from federal income taxes". This is simply not true. Then we can discuss whether people receive enough help, whether we should spend tax money better, etc. But saying that federal income tax is used to pay for the debt and that's it is simply not true.

Even your own, link botolo86, says its funded by the payroll tax!

And boy do we sure get our moneys worth (eye roll).  If the government stayed out of medicare & free market forces were actually allowed at play in the marketplace, there would be no need for that payroll tax either.   Aspirin couldn't be billed at $25 per pill... nobody would pay that if they had to directly.  You could actually pay cash for your medical services and afford to do so.

You think we got a "benefit" from that system?  Nope.  The congressional lobbying by insurance companies, pharmaceutical companies, & health care "providers" created yet another forced system of enslavement.

Clever bastards they are.  But just as evil motives behind that system as those behind the biggest scam the world has ever seen... the Federal Reserve

Wake up botolo86.  Do your own research beyond what your masters allow you... The income tax benefits only the Banksters.

The Federal Reserve scam was forced into law in early morning hours of Christmas Eve, 1913.  It was voted at that time by design.   Knowing the only congress members that would be present were those in collusion with the banksters.

That very same year the income tax was forced on the people... under very dubious circumstances as well (See The Law That Never Was).

Coincidence?

Nope... it was all done by design.  Knowing that income tax would end up in their pockets.

botolo86 is dead wrong.  100% of the income tax goes to pay interest on the debt, & back into the Banksters pockets.

Where it is used to foment wars for profit.  To further enslave nation states through the debt to the Banksters those wars lead to.

botolo86, how do you shills sleep at night?  Knowing the death & mayhem the system you shill for is behind?

You're either willfully ignorant or have sold your soul to the devil.

Are you smarter then a 12 year old botolo86?

Apparently not!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHQOX8EVNmE

The central bank scam works the same way in Canada as it does in the US.

Perhaps you should learn how the system you shill for works botolo86.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFDe5kUUyT0

Don't tell your masters what you're watching now.

And if that one was too much for you botolo86, here's it is explained in even simpler terms you might be able to actually understand...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGk5ioEXlIM

Wake up!  Only the Banksters benefit from that system you shill for.

Try to play by your master's rules, botolo86, and you'll forever be a slave.

There is no winning that game.  They set the rules.  

The only American & patriotic thing to do is refuse to play.

It's rather ironic a governemt paid shill calling the forum members who call him out trolls.

Is that the only card you have left botoko86?  No more baseless propaganda you're going to try to pass off as fact?

Sheesh, they gotta start training you shills better.

Haha,

So funny

I am not a IRC employee

Internet Relay Chat is not a company and it doesn't have employees.

When CNN or a "seriously uptight" member of Congress wants to show "conclusive evidence" that BTC is being used to avoid paying taxes, you have given them a clear starting point. Nice work.

And the guy doesn't know the difference between "pour" and "pore".

My $.02.

;)

...pour over the blockchain
If the blockchain gets wet, does that possibly cause serious problems?  :D

Let them show "conclusive evidence".  Let them try to ban Bitcoin.  Let them vilify it.  Let them marginalize its users.  Let them fight it all they want.

And just as banning books makes them coveted, banning Bitcoin will only make Bitcoin stronger.

Anyone with half a brain can see the clear advantage of crypto currencies.  And realize they can't ban it anymore then they can ban email or bittorrent.

There is no appeasing that system.

There's no trying to abide by their rules.  Bitcoin & the current system of fiat simply cannot co-exist. 

The more Bitcoin users who openly speak up, the more of the lemmings will begin to realize they too don't have to bow to their masters any longer.

The more people speak up & opening challenge the corrupt & evil system, the better.

There is a way out.  Nobody has to bow to that system any longer.  The more who stand up & shout what everyone is thinking anyway, but too spineless to say it, the better.

If a grammatical error is what it takes to keep bumping this thread to the top, then I'm all for it.

Only small minds would discount the message because of spelling or grammar errors.

Oh, may I disagree?

Spelling and grammar errors impede the ability to communicate and I have always believed that those who find themselves unable to communicate effectively should STFU.

At any rate, the thread continues.................................

My $.02.

;)

There's a reason they don't write chapters in history books or make movies about 'great' editors & spellers.

Editors & spell checkers come a dime a dozen.

True and they contribute to the overall dumbing down of the society as a whole.

Donte have to rite gud if them softywears tak kare of thing for you.

My $.02.

;)

P.S.

Behind every successful writer there is at least one editor and you're correct, one doesn't hear about them but they are indeed there.

For one, the NSA provides the most excellent online backup service ever created!  No configuration is required by the end-user, every piece of data the end-user passes over the Internet is beam-split from the fiber feeds into each Internet exchange and telco hotel, analyzed by the best hardware and software money can buy from Narus, then backed up automatically in the largest storage cluster of hard drives ever amassed in one location on earth in their superb and highly secure Utah Data Center (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_Data_Center (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_Data_Center)).  Best of all, the service is offered free of charge, to every person in the world, not just US citizens.  And when it comes time to retrieve your data after a hard drive crash, just a few short clicks and..  Umm..  Hmm..

I thought tax was based on mining, transaction, and capital gains of fair market price? So it doesnt matter? Or am I incorrect?

you're a moron

Thank you for your accurate post!

+1

My $.02.

;)

Would that "accurate post" be because if people start ignoring the scam that is the IRS they wouldn't need your services any longer?

Any moron can call anyone a moron.  And when anyone resorts to name calling you can be assured they have no facts to stand on.

...So I would take your assessment as a compliment.

You are correct. Mining causes a taxable event (as income) each time you mine new coins, based on the FMV of the coin at the time you mine it. Holding bitcoin isn't taxable (same as holding stocks), but mining or spending/selling/trading the bitcoin is.

Of course, no one - including the IRS - can show ANY evidence that these rules apply to anyone.

That's true, but always that random audit.
..

The Sixteenth Amendment:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

Don't cut off the head of the messenger please!

My $.02.

;)

No letters or calls from the IRS yet. Sounds like all the fear-mongering was empty threats.

Cryptocoins are the death of taxes and the state - deal with it.

Who do you bow to LostDutchman?  Any law they pass?  Regardless of the ethics & morals behind it?

Let's assume for a moment that the 16th amendment actually was constitutional, & legally ratified (which it was not)...

....Does that mean we should bow to it?

Step back & look at the bigger picture.

The income tax & the federal reserve scam behind it work together to enslave us all.

The wealth that comes from that scam is used by central banks to foment wars for profit, only to further enslave nation states to those psychopathic Banksters.

That's what you are bowing to, LostDutchman, when you setup those corporations for your clients to "abide by the law".  A system that leads to nothing but torture, death, & mayhem in the world.

The only ethical, moral, & patriotic thing to do is to ignore those evil systems.  Do not empower that monster any longer.

Don't just refuse to send in that yearly confessional.  But also refuse to use the federal reserve note (the dollar).   Refuse to use the SSN (slave surveillance number).  And do your business is non-debt based money... gold, silver, crypto currencies.

...And sleep at night, knowing your wealth wasn't used to torture, enslave, or murder anyone tonight.
 

Lastly, a thought for you to ponder, LostDutchman...

“You assist an evil system most effectively by obeying its orders and decrees. An evil system never deserves such allegiance. Allegiance to it means partaking of the evil. A good person will resist an evil system with his or her whole soul.” -Mahatma Gandhi


Anyone who participates in that system is knowingly, or unknowingly enabling that evil.  Regardless of how aware they are or not, that choice carries a karmic consequence.

The only ethical, moral thing to do is use every tool at your disposal to carry out non-violent civil disobedience... refusing to enable that system at any & all cost.  Be willing to be jailed or die before enabling that evil system.

...That's the only way the inhumane aberration known as central banking that has caused so much pain and suffering in the world will ever be abolished.

IRS regulation is probably biggest problem for people who make exchanges on mtgox.

In worst case I heard Canada is nice country to live in :P

My goodness, that was profound!

Silly but profound.

My $.02.

;)

Of course it's "silly" to an agent of that system.

Ridicule is the oldest tactic in the book.  You're going to have to come up with something better then that, LostDutchman, to save that dying system you're an agent for.

CAUGHT!

Curses, foiled again!

http://i533.photobucket.com/albums/ee332/maria_martinez1128/secret-agent.jpg (http://media.photobucket.com/user/maria_martinez1128/media/secret-agent.jpg.html)

My $.02.

;)

he did say he his Lost

Ad hominem attacks and threats are all they have. It means they've lost the argument.  ;)

I am also a Freemason, one of the few surviving members of the Illuminati, a former Boy Scout, a member of The Council On Foreign Relaions, the ASPCA and..........................................

.......a THESPIAN!

My $.02.

;)

Marginalization, the next oldest & tiredest tactic in their playbook.  Another dead giveaway they have no grounds to stand on.

Well, if I am marginalising it's because you, although you are a pretty smart guy are kind of "out there" ON the margin!

We're not that far apart in our basic thinking but you are so far outhere that I seriously doubt your ability to function in any meaningful way in the real world.

My $.02.

;)

A generation from now, after the fiat scam has callapsed under its own weight... and like the great depression, leaving a lost, damaged generation in its wake, they will look back and wonder at the stupidity & shortsightedness of the masses for even considering debt based paper.

The lemmings are almost never on the right side of history.  So if being on the "margin" puts me on the opposite side of the lemmings, them by damn, I take that as the highest compliment.

As for functioning in the real world, I function far better now, and with far more peace & congruency then I ever did when trying to comply with that scam system.

Just imagine what it feels like, knowing you don't have to keep receipts, records, or justify your expenses to anyone.  Just imagine what if feels like to know, regardless of what that scam system does to its slaves, there is nothing they can do to you.  Just for a moment imagine what it feels like to be a true sovereign.

...something the appeasers, the apologists, the fearful, & the lemmings will never know.

By the way, did you know the whole "lemmings jumping into the sea" thing was a hoax?

http://www.snopes.com/disney/films/lemmings.asp

And this:

http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/index.cfm?adfg=wildlifenews.view_article&articles_id=56

"In 1958 Walt Disney produced "White Wilderness," part of the studio's "True Life Adventure" series. "White Wilderness" featured a segment on lemmings, detailing their strange compulsion to commit mass suicide.

According to a 1983 investigation by Canadian Broadcasting Corporation producer Brian Vallee, the lemming scenes were faked. The lemmings supposedly committing mass suicide by leaping into the ocean were actually thrown off a cliff by the Disney filmmakers. The epic "lemming migration" was staged using careful editing, tight camera angles and a few dozen lemmings running on snow covered lazy-Susan style turntable."

Thus clearly demonstrating that at least one of your core beleifs is based on fraud and without foundation in fact.

I wrote that you are a smart guy and I think you are but you are not knowlegeable about real-world things and use a well known hoax to insult your detractors.

This being clearly the case, how much else of your financial philosophy is based on hoaxes, mis-information, FUD and plain old-fashioned bullshit?

My $.02.

;)

OMG you're really getting desperate if that's all you can come up with to discredit me.  It's laughable you'd use that reasoning to try to counter thousands of years of financial history.

Here's a fact for you to consider.  There is not one fiat currency that hasn't failed.  It is only a matter of time.  They ALL collapse.  Whereas gold has a thousand year history without a single collapse.

Are you so damn naive to believe there isn't a consequence to endless money printing?  Are you so arrogant to believe the laws of economics don't apply to the Federal Reserve?

"This time it's different"... Where have we heard that before?

Those who fail to study history are destined to repeat it.

I've ignored Sage long ago.
Just do the same.
You are unlikely to get any form of intelligent two sided debate from him/her.
In my experience he/she will spout unproven/fictional nonsense then when/if someone calls him/her on it, he/she will resort to personal attacks.

I think you're 100% correct!

Thanks for your input!

My $.02.

;)

He's trying to redirect and use a strawman - as if your use of the word "lemmings" was ever the thrust of your argument in the first place.

I guess his name makes sense - he's truly "lost".

The point of this thread is for me to prove the IRS can't prove what bitcoins you sold - even if you make a direct challenge about it.

Couldn't they just ask your bank, and then the bank could query whatever source the incoming transfer came from (say for example a BTC exchange where you sold BTC for USD) and then the exchange could identify how much btc you sold and for how much? You guys are all acting like it would be incredibly difficult, but it wouldn't be.

Did we already forget about all the people who thought Swiss banks were impervious to the IRS' scrutiny? The US went after them and the Swiss banks rolled over in about two seconds, and provided all the information they needed to prosecute tax-evaders. What do you think your bitcoin exchanges are going to do?

It turns out that there is no proof that an assemblage of wild lemmings would actually drive themselves off of a cliff at all, but rather the myth was perpetuated by a 1958 Disney documentary called White Wilderness, in which the filmmakers manually ran a pack of lemmings off of a cliff to make for good television. The staged suicide turned out to be a critical success, as the movie went on to win the Academy Award for Best Documentary Feature.
http://mentalfloss.com/article/50957/do-lemmings-really-run-cliffs-their-death

Is there a Disney documentary showing Disney filmmakers thrown off a cliff?

Apparently you haven't ignored me 7Priest7...

And since you haven't, at the danger of co-opting this thread, go ahead 7Priest.  Quote me in full context where I haven't directly addressed anyone who has "called me on it" with the facts, and instead resorted to "personal attacks".

Make no mistake about it, I'll call out any shill here.  And confront them with the facts.  Giving them about as much respect as any government paid shill deserves in the process.  But never have I, nor would I ever avoid or deflect a confrontation with a "personal attack".

...Nor would I need to.  In matters of exposing Federal Reserve & the scam that is the IRS, the truth is squarely on my side.

Lastly, if I'm wrong & the facts prove that to be so, then I celebrate.  Shedding falsehood is something to be celebrated.  When I'm wrong I'm wrong, & the first to admit it.

It's sad, but in matters of central banking, the Federal Reserve, the IRS scam, everything I have said here is true... I only wish it wasn't.

By posting a message on this forum, you are not making a direct challenge to the IRS. If you want to make a direct challenge to the IRS, have someone report you to the IRS and we will then see whether you are right or wrong. I have the feeling that they will be able to find something because, as stated before, the ramifications of your financial expenditures do not stop on your person but they continue and reach anyone you have been in contact with.

I think you are correct and I am quite certain that the IRS and perhaps other "three-letter" agencies have plants here.

They tend to do that sort of thing, you know.

Stay legal people; find ways to minimise tax and go on!

My $.02.

;)

Plants like Botolo...

Stay legal?  How can you stay legal with an ILLEGAL organization that pulls rulings out of the air, without any authority of law to do so, & then applies them retroactively.

Then anyone they want to target, selectively prosecute in yet another shame, illegal court system known as the "tax court".  You gotta ask yourself why tax cases are not tried in a criminal court. 

You really think you'll get any rule of law in the tax court?

Here's a few quotes from the tax court for you to ponder...

"I will not allow the law in my courtroom"
U.S. District Court Judge Kent J. Dawson

And another quote by the same traitor to the Constitution & the American people...
"You must follow the law as I give it to you."

Wake up.  They don't follow the law.

The only solution to the Federal Reserve scam & their collection agency the IRS is to refuse to participate.

Treat them like you would the mob.  Keep all assets out of their reach.  And simply refuse to participate in that scam.

Poor Sage.

We should all send him letters after he is locked up.

My $.02.

;)

It's been over 14 years since learning the truth about that scam system.  And then choosing to do the only ethical/moral thing, absolutely refusing to enable that evil system from there on out, I have not received one single letter, or notice of for "payment" of any kind.

When trying to comply with that scam I was constantly assaulted with nuisance notices from the scam that is the IRS.  

It's those that try to comply with that scam that they know they can extract yet more wealth from that they hassle.

Why else to do they force you to sign on the dotted line?  Don't fall for that first step of entrapment.

Treat them like you would the mob.  Get your assets out of their reach.  Refuse to use their scam system, and they'll move onto more easily exploited sheep.

Of course if we all did that we wouldn't need the services LostDutchman provides.  God forbid the agents  to that system (LostDutchman) would then actually have to engage in a biz that actually did add value to the world.

Okay. I read what you wrote. It sounded unbelievable, so I looked it up myself.

Yes, Judge Kent J. Dawson did indeed say, "I will not allow the law in my courtroom". But what he said is being misinterpreted. He did NOT say that his court is lawless, but instead was following the laws of the court.

Under the U.S. legal system, the general rule is that neither side in a civil or criminal case is allowed to try to prove to the jury what the law is. For example, in a murder case the defendant is not generally allowed to persuade the jury that there is no law against murder, or to try to interpret the law for the jury. Likewise, the prosecution is not allowed to try to persuade the jury about what the law is, or how it should be interpreted.

It would take too much of the court's time to (a) prove that the crime was actually a law broken, (b) prove the defendant guilty/innocent. So, after an incident is brought up to the court - part A is decided BEFORE THE TRIAL. Part B is decided upon AT THE TRIAL. All lawyers know this. Otherwise every single trial would take 10 time what it does now, because the law would have to be proven again and again and again.

So, when you go to court to fight 'not paying your taxes', you CANNOT claim that 'there is no law that says you must pay your taxes'. There is assumed to be a law (or the court case would have been thrown out previously).

Anything Sage says in the future, I'll have to verify, or I won't believe now. He's taking things out of context.

Yes, you won't get the 'rule of law' in the tax court, i.e. whether the tax law is legal or not - you only get to defend yourself against the existing tax code.

Spoken like a lawyer who tries to twist the truth.

"Assumed to be a law"... What kind of court is that won't even allow the law (or lack of) to be introduced into the case that the defendant is said to be breaking.

"I will not allow the law in my courtroom" was Dawson's response to Irwin Schiff's attempt introduce supreme court rulings to support his case.  Completely relevant rulings to his case.

Yes, they used every dirty trick in the book in that case.  Every dirty trick.  It could not be more blatant a railroad job.  Read the transcripts yourself, bbeagle.  Then reread your last post, and laugh at your logic... cause it's laughable to try to use that logic to justify Dawson's own comments.

Lastly, if there was a law that obligated the average American to pay the income tax they most certainly would allow it in the court room... rather then using all this skullduggery.

Wake up!  There's a reason tax cases aren't tried in a true criminal court.

Sage, I guess I'm on the other side of the fence than you are, therefore I see this differently. There is nothing for me to 'Wake Up' to - I have a different philosophy than you do. I would say the same 'Wake Up' to you before you end up in jail.

I agree that Americans need to pay the income tax. I know the court MUST use skullduggery because, technically, income tax is not in the Constitution. I don't have a problem with that - because I feel that Americans must all pay income tax for the good of the country, I do not support the idea that you can question this in the court.

There have been numerous court cases brought to the Supreme Court in which the Supreme Court has ruled that people must pay their taxes. For example, Cheek vs. United States: ' The Court ruled that an actual belief that the tax law is invalid or unconstitutional is not a good faith belief based on a misunderstanding caused by the complexity of the tax law, and is not a defense.'

You might as well talk to a rock as talk to Dank.

At least the rock will not waste your time by replying.

My $.02.

;)

Government informants have been the scum of society for millenia, the same scum that every police state inevitably slips on and breaks its neck in its final demise.

If you welcome and support Stasi tactics from your government you are one sick MF.

You are welcome to your scum and the law of the jungle they usher in ...

I just wanted to point out that you are making money from the Internet, which was initially developed by the Federal government of the United States, using income taxes "extorted" from us tax paying citizens.  Without the federal government's help, the network would have never gotten off the ground, because it took decades until it was profitable.  You can pretend that the internet would have developed without the government, but if it did, we be using set top boxes that only downloaded content from big businesses that could afford the economic barriers to become content providers.

You might find a different line of work if not being a hypocrite is important to you.

OMG what's this waffling?

Now you're openly admitting to the skullduggery used to railroad a man that was exposing the fraud.  Whereas before you tried to use lawyer tricks to justify Dawson's skullduggery?

WTF???

It's okay in your book to subvert the Constitution?  To do away with the right to due process?  To use skullduggery in a courtroom?  For a federal judge to railroad a man.  Putting him jail for life, because it would expose that fraud?

All because you believe that system is justified?  All for the "greater good"...

Where have we heard that kind of logic before... Hint:  Communist Russia, Nazi Germany, & every genocidal regime before & since.

Which is exactly what the powers behind the Federal Reserve & the income tax scam are conducting right now... genocide.

Good Lord...bbeagle are you that ignorant?  Or just brainwashed beyond hope?  Or have they bought you off too?

Scum or otherwise the reality is that this is an open forum and I would expect government informants and agents to be present here.

Sucking up donuts and coffee while monitoring all the "forums of interest."
OPs tax dollars hard at work ;)

You obviously don't understand laws.
It's not like every law is written in a constitution. That's not the function of a constitution. A constitution just has some Basic laws.
I don't think, that in your (US) constitution there is anything written about driving too fast. Still, if a cop caught you driving too fast, would you just refuse to pay up, because it "subverts" the constitution?

No turvarya YOU obviously don't understand laws.

The Constitution & Bill of Rights supersedes ANY & all laws of the land.  Any law that is unconstitutional is null & void!  Otherwise why the hell would we have a Constitution & Bill of Rights?

Perhaps you should stick to commenting about your own country's system of law & not one you're completely ignorant about.



 

You didn't answer my question. Where does the "The Constitution & Bill of Rights" says, that you are not allowed to drive too fast?

I already answered that question. Look closely.

The fact that Sage is not in jail indicates to me that he is all talk.  If you really were flaunting that you weren't paying taxes you'd be in jail.  It has happened to many, many people. Hey listen if you were withholding taxes for some other reason, like you disagreed with war or the US killing people, I'd support you.  I agree with that premise but I don't want to go to jail.

Advise that remains valid.
You guys would be better off if you just ignore sage.
Sage seems to just like instigating conflicts.

Once again, the argument for paying taxes has defaulted to "I don't want to go to jail".

If the only reason is a threat, than you're conceding the moral argument.

Yelling from a virtual rooftop "I didn't pay capital gains tax on bitcoin sales to IRS today".....?
What does that concede, or say about your actions?
Even if you don't care about your own security, aren't you making things more dangerous for everyone else?*
*People who pay their taxes still have a lot to lose if the Gov targets BTC users as tax frauds and economic terrorists.

"all talk"

What a joke.  At great expense & sacrifice I have divorced myself from that system.  And refuse to enable it.

As a mentor of mine once said...

"You must be the change you wish to see in the world."

This is not about "resisting" anything.  It's not about "fighting" the system.  Only fools do that.  And fighting any system only makes it stronger.  Look how many more "terrorists" the shame war on terror has created.  Look at how many more drug users the shame war on drugs created.

No... these people are lawless.  The tax courts operate outside the law.  Trying to confront a lawless system with the law is futility & stupidity.

Standing up & making yourself a target is also futility & stupidity.  They're hoping for high profile targets to pick off.

Activism is a joke.  Petitions, pissing in the wind.  Trying to fight it out in the tax courts with a lawless agency couldn't be anymore stupid.

Using your "second amendment" rights to resist that system only puts you on their level.  Force never conquers an evil system.

The only solution the the central banking monster that has enslaved the world & caused so much death, destruction, & mayhem around the planet is to simply not enable that monster any longer.

History has shown us the most effective way to overcome evil & oppressive systems is non-violent civil disobedience.

Simply refuse, at any and all cost, to enable that system.  Go about your business quietly outside that system.  Use gold, silver, & crypto currencies to conduct your biz.  Move your assets out of their reach...

...And quietly & anonymously help your fellow humans do the same.  Showing them how to use whatever tool at their disposal to practically divorce themselves from that system.

And do it anonymously.  Don't make yourself a target.  Hitler would have just loved for all the underground to stand up and oppose him in the open.  Don't do that.  Subvert that system anonymously simply by not enabling it.  And helping your fellow humans do the same.

And of course, confront all the shills, apologists, & government agents with the TRUTH!  Confront all their propaganda & fear mongering with the truth.  Don't allow them to spread their propaganda unconfronted!

..confront them at every turn with the truth!

The internet provides the perfect medium to get the truth out without making yourself a target.  Enough of the sheep see another possibility then the tide will turn.

...that system will die, simply because the sheep no longer enable it.  And that only happens because YOU & ME made a stand & lead the way.

What does cowering to fear & intimidation achieve?  It only makes the world a more dangerous place.

Any organization that uses fear & intimidation to get compliance always degrades into a genocidal organization when they garner enough power.  Show me one example otherwise!

Sheep cowering to their fear & intimidation only gives them more power.

What the world needs more are far less sheep cowering silently & far more lions shouting from the rooftops the TRUTH about that evil system. 

You should see by the desperation & stupidity of their arguments how deathly afraid they are of we the people standing up against their tyranny.

...Cause they know like a leak in the dike, it only takes a small minority to overthrow their control.  Once that flow starts, then it's only matter of time before the dike breaks, and their reign of terror is over.

That, my friend, is why they have so many government shills in this forum spouting baseless propaganda and fear & intimidation.

It's not just not wanting to go to jail.  Maybe you don't have a family who relies on you or something but that is one consideration.  The other is to pay unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar.

First off, dummy, Caesar was stabbed to death a long time ago, and its a stupid metaphor for government for a variety of reasons.

As far as paying government what belongs to government, I do pay them what belongs to them - which is nothing of mine. I don't owe them one penny.

You don't sound like you ever studied basic logic, Jcw188. You just spout off retarded catch-phrases like an unthinking moron with no critical thinking behind them.

IRS will always win. They want to tax anything and everything of value in the United States Citizen's hand.

Nothing lasts forever.

Um, OK.

MY $.02.

;)

You are really OK with that?
Looks a bit creepy to me.  :D

What the, what have you done >:(

That's what I thought too, hence my "Um" in the post!

My $.02.

;)

I didn't actually create the image.
It may be "creapy." But what it represents is good.
It represents the anonymous movement and resisting the way things currently are.
We as citizens of modern society have very few personal freedoms.
We NEED change.

Agreed!

My $.02.

;)

Now that must be a sweet job... just surf Forums all day looking for rabble-rousers :P

Makes sense.

For the government shills: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=593833.0

On that thread, I seek evidence that without exercising any kind of federal privilege, I (or anyone) still owes income tax.  I have a refund from the federal government for all the income tax I paid in 2009 suggesting that no such evidence can be had.  It's ALL FRAUD and DECEIT.

So did anyone from IRS contacted you?


are you at least in USA? or you are in Japan with Mark drinking a frappucinno?

Why wake up a sleeping giant leave it alone.

I think tax is equivalent to rape. Would you let an government employee rape you?

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_MVJZ45mLL-M/TUNMpQXEE3I/AAAAAAAABZU/fx3-5Zn9GqY/s400/2_WorstWay.jpg
Uncle Sam loves to bend you over and have you.
As long as the majority of citizens keep bending down, he's gonna have all he can handle.
http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2011/356/9/6/resist_wallpaper_by_frankoko-d4jv8nk.png

This needs to be clarified once and for all "The IRS do not make laws"
Government in the United States of America is separated into 3 parts.
1. The Legislature - Laws are passed by the Senate and Congress
2. The Executive - These are departments/services/agencies that execute those laws by interpreting legislation and forming policy (IRS)
3. The Judiciary - The courts, where the "real laws" are decided (remember George Bush got elected by a judge of the Supreme Court)
It is here that laws are tested and decided, not by the Executive, the IRS "opinion" is completely irrelevant.
I find it laughable that the IRS chose to define Bitcoin as an "asset" on their website page titled "Virtual Currency Guidance"
So is it an "Asset" or a "Currency" perhaps the page should be titled "Virtual Asset Guidance"
Also very telling is the word "Guidance" which implies it is not a "Law" it is merely a recommendation, and if you choose to pay tax that is up to you.
Ultimately it is "Not a Law" until the courts rule that it is. This is the "only place" laws are made. Keep that in mind :)

Then you'd better pay the tax as a 'currency' if you're thinking that bitcoins are a currency. ('Currency' doesn't care about gains/losses like assets do, but GETTING the currency is taxable)

ANY income you derive be it from US currency, bitcoins or bananas, you need to report and pay taxes on.

Mining $100,000 in bitcoins is technically the same to the IRS as a bank truck crashing into your house in the middle of the night and 'depositing' $100,000 into your living room. You need to pay taxes on the $100,000 in either case.

Laws are NOT made by the courts. Laws are made by the Legislature (and other government agencies like towns, cities and states and even homeowners associations). It's the courts that decide whether a law is VALID and ENFORCEABLE or not.

Once a law is on the books, however it gets there, you must follow it, or you can be prosecuted for that law. If you choose to fight the law in court, you may do so, but you're guilty of breaking that law until the courts prove that the law is not valid.

It is Law when passed by the Congress and signed by the President.  If the President Vetoes it, then Congress can override if they have the numbers.  This is how laws are made.  Settled Law is a bit different, as it does involve the Courts and their giving of their imprimatur. 

In this case, the law authorizes the IRS to act as an 'agency' of the US Government.  That agency is also empowered by the very same law to interpret the laws of Congress as appropriate.  So what we really have here is Congress delegating their power to an outside agency.  Some may even say 'abdicating'.  Nonetheless, if the law empowers the agency, then that's what it does.  If you want to argue that Congress should not have abdicated or delegated, that's fine.  But they did so through laws.  And you violate those laws, or ignore them, at your own peril.

oh really?

What law are you talking about?

  Why do you think that? What insight do you have into the IRS bloat.
I have lots of insight they are understaffed and under funded.
 Also the last time they went after a big company and nailed them to the wall the entire world economy was crashed and burned.  Read about the American insurance  company AIG their tax troubles back on 2005-2008 and how they were a big player in the crash of the worlds economy  under the former president Bush.


back to the op man if you post /thread is true you remind me of a song by Pink " I am Looking for trouble"

The I.R.S. expects your employer to submit a form to them showing your income.
Any income that isn't reported they expect you to voluntarily list(like bitcoin gains.)
The I.R.S. expects you to compile that information into a single form for leisure IRS slackass reading.

What exactly do they do?
Sit around and eat donuts while reading all the information you compiled for them.

Structure your crypotocurrency business properly, using existing law and legal tax avoidance and you could well owe no tax at all.

Yep, until they change the rules on you RETROACTIVELY!

You can't win a game where the metaphoric fox in the hen house is setting the rules.

Depends on what you are willing to do.

What are you willing to do?

Dutchman it is painfully obvious you are trying to push the services linked in your signature.

Give it a rest please.

He leaked his personal email account attached to his forum account which is SR. I think.. that's how he got caught, not because he use TOR.

No, I am not.

Take a look around at the constant flow of government intrusion into the lives of crypto people, the undending attempts on the part of government to control crypto and the efforts of the much-misinformed and highly-manipulated news media to undermine crypto in the eyes of the public and the future is bleak for those who fail to keep their asses covered in manners which will maximise their profit in this new world of currency.

He became over-confident, began to think that he was untouchable and got arrogant.

"You can't catch me!", he though.

Wrongo, boyo!

"Snap!" is the sound made by the cuffs before he was led away!

The over intrusion by Government includes all people.
All governments in all countries have gotten out of control.
Restricting every personal freedom imaginable.

It is the whole point of the Anonymous movement, resisting the powers that be.

When you make statements like this you encourage the police and police state.
Police are the bad guys, they are the thugs who enforce the laws which restrict all our freedom.
Remember that, and never encourage or make any comments that may encourage the police.

Statements such as the one I made in no way "encourage" the police.

What in the world is wrong with you?

It does, If you lack the intelligence to see how, that is not my fault.

Ignored. Saying "What in the world is wrong with you?" is rude, if you lack the intelligence to see how, also not my fault. Being rude to a individual who wrote what I wrote was uncalled for.
Painfully obvious all you do is push your overpriced worthless service anyhow.

Enjoy your pain then I guess.

If you sold BTC today then you would not own capital gains taxes on these sales until "tax time" next year.

It is highly advisably to not openly break the law. The IRS is a very powerful agency.

It is difficult to avoid breaking the law if you don't know the law.  Most people who understand the law (Title 26, that is) well enough to avoid breaking it also avoid engaging in taxable activities so that they don't owe any income tax and can get back everything that was withheld from their paychecks (if any).  Most people who know the law that well have done some research.  Many of them found Peter E. Hendrickson's site and have been able to find their way through the bullshit, which is deep and thick because, as you point out, "The IRS is a very powerful agency."

lol keep on poking the bear mate.
infact why not post up your real details if you are so sure nothing will happen.

actually please don't. it will only lead to bad media, and  you taking a hefty fine

The burden is on the taxpayer (you) to prove that your tax return is accurate.

if the IRS feels like your standard of living is significantly above your income/assets then they will audit you and they have great investigative ability.

there is a saying in my country that you should realy listed, "dont go poking around with someone with bigger horns"

It is why you don't want to be audited and you want to keep as much documents and proofs possible in case you are audited

This is all assuming you exercise federal privilege of some kind in order to earn money.  It's called an "excise" tax for a good reason.

According to Charlie Shrem, several govt agencies are monitoring here.

But the OP is saying that he is not paying taxes on his gains on bitcoin.

Of course they are what do you expect?

They are monitoring automatically and with agents; you can consider it is their job, it depends how they monitor and what is the purpose

Dear federal agents,

Go check out Pete Hendrickson's book.  I know your fellow bureaucrats have said it's full of lies, but have they identified any of those lies?  They pretended to.  The book says that "wages" is a legal term that does NOT describe what most people get for their work, and therefore the tax on "wages" does not apply to what most people get for their work.  Your fellow bureaucrats pretended this was a lie by altering it to: "Wages are not taxable."

Now, take a few minutes to figure out why they would alter what the book says in order to reverse its meaning and then call it a lie.  If it interests you enough, then go read the rest of the book for yourself so you can uncover all the other lies your fellow bureaucrats have invented to try to maintain the gravy train you're all riding.

And watch out, because the conclusion kind of sucks for you:  As a federal agent, you are in the small group of people who actually do owe the tax, because what you get for working DOES fit the legal definition of "wages".  But you can always quit!

Ignorance of the law is not an excuse to breaking it. 

You don't have to break the law to pay little or no tax.

Would you like to know more?

I wonder if they accept the "computer crashed and lost all documents" argument from their victims?

http://freebeacon.com/issues/irs-lost-lerner-emails-due-to-computer-crash-agency-says/

If you cannot produce documents then they can pretty much accuse you (and win) of pretty much everything.

LOL on the Louis Lenner link.

The burden of proof is in the hands of the accuse; it is commun that tax payers end up having huge fines when they didn't cheat or broke the law

The fact that it was not intentional may be considered attenuating circumstance in some cases but it will not save you of paying some fines

USC 26 6702(c) States:


Here (http://www.irs.gov/irb/2010-17_IRB/ar13.html) is the "list of positions which the Secretary has identified as being frivolous," but there is one position that is missing.  It's my position, and if they would like to add it to the list, then I will have to admit that I no longer have a legal basis for refusing to support their criminal operations.  Here is my position, which I think would go under section B ("The Meaning of Income:  Taxable Income and Gross Income (http://www.irs.gov/Tax-Professionals/The-Truth-About-Frivolous-Tax-Arguments-Section-I-A-to-C#_Toc350157890)"):


This was copied from my blog entry on the same subject (http://litmocracy.blogspot.com/2014/06/the-missing-frivolous-argument.html).

This is a very sad fact about our current set of tax laws.

In order for them to initiate a audit they must have some evidence that fraud occurred.

The "evidence" can come from MANY sources, but there must be a discrepancy in your taxes.
They will not simply audit random people who may or may not have bought/sold bitcoins. If you were intelligent enough to trade your bitcoins in a pseudo-anonymous format, they will never know.

That all said, if they have some evidence you have been dealing in bitcoins that you never reported, you will likely be audited, and you will have to prove that you have never traded bitcoins.

I didn't say they will randomly try to punish you but if friends/neighbourgs think you are avoiding taxes and you make money through Bitcoin you may gave you up and they may decide to audit you then you will need to prove your innocence or you may already be audited and they find Bitcoin transactions to your bank account ect.

Don't do anything illegal and keep records should be enough

This is not true.  If you avoid exercising any federal privilege in your bitcoin dealings, then you have no obligation to report them.  An analysis of Title 26 demonstrating this pretty clearly (and proving it with evidence from the IRS and Treasury) is available at losthorizons.com.

That sounds a lot like the people who say that they do not have to file their taxes because there is no law that says a taxpayer must file their 1040.

They are correct if there is no evidence that they received money from privileged activity, but W2s, 1099s, and the like ARE such evidence and the IRS has the people (incorrectly) producing them send those "information returns" directly to the IRS.  It is left up to the victim to set the record straight (with forms 4852, or corrected 1099s) or pay the alleged tax liabilities.  So it is like the position you wrote, but qualified and therefore legally valid, as the scans on the website of people receiving refunds shows.

By the way, I don't think the IRS ever points out that the presumptive legal evidence they receive in the form of W2s and 1099s is the basis of their (correct) position that the victims of their scam are actually legally obligated to file a return.  While it is immoral for them to require us to do that paperwork just because they've successfully tricked someone else into providing them with presumptive legal evidence, it is still the laws of the land.  It is far less damaging than actually forcing us to pay a tax we don't owe but, as in many cases, their brazen immorality in the first case is tolerated (actually supported by the justice system) because it isn't so onerous.  Then they leverage it into the far worse theft (when misapplied, as it generally is) that people call "income tax".

who says that? I believe the argument is that they aren't "taxpayers" to begin with.

Hey Guys i thought i should clear this up once and for all. Tax liability has nothing to do with FIAT gains. Examples are numerous but one that will illustrate this well is the IRS position on taxing traded services where no FIAT is used.
http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc420.html
"Bartering occurs when you exchange goods or services without exchanging money. An example of bartering is a plumber exchanging plumbing services for the dental services of a dentist. You must include in gross income in the year of receipt the fair market value of goods or services received from bartering."
Obviously this doesn't pertain to Bitcoin but people need to free their minds from the mistaken belief that FIAT must be involved to be a taxable event.

FIAT or not, there are still a number of issues, Bitcoin mining is a service provided by miners to the network for a "service fee" known as a reward. The Bitcoin nodes also charge a fee for their "service" and this is known as a "transaction fee".
These activities are covered in Publication 525, Taxable and Nontaxable Income under the section "information on miscellaneous income from exchanges involving property or services".
Bitcoin mining is specifically covered in this IRS document:
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-drop/n-14-21.pdf
Q-8: Does a taxpayer who "mines" virtual currency (for example, uses computer resources to validate Bitcoin transactions and maintain the public ledger) realize gross income upon receipt of the currency resulting from those activities?
A-8: Yes, when a taxpayer successfully "mines" virtual currency, the fair market value of the virtual currency as of the date of receipt is includible in gross income.

To complicate matters further the IRS state that any use of the "virtual currency" whatsoever would create a "taxable event".
Here is the most important revelation, the IRS require "any exchange" of "virtual currency" for other property (including other virtual currency, as it is considered property) to be considered for tax purposes. (eg. exchange of Bitcoin to Litecoin or other Altcoin)
Q-6: Does a taxpayer have gain or loss upon exchange of virtual currency for other property?
A-6: Yes. See Publication 544, Sales and Other Dispositions of Assets

So clearly FIAT is not a required component, to be liable for tax purposes, as the measurement used is "fair market value" not actual FIAT.
Although you are correct in the assertion that "holding bitcoin is tax rate of ZERO" you must consider that obtaining and disposing of Bitcoin are "taxable events" for tax purposes. In other words 'it is not possible for you to hold Bitcoin without "someone" first paying tax on that Bitcoin' or put another way 'you cannot mine, buy, sell, trade, swap or obtain Bitcoin (or any other virtual currency) without someone paying tax'.
Obtaining Bitcoin is a taxable event, holding it after this is irrelevant.

Hope this clears things up.

A lot of people (who don't pay/file taxes) make this argument. If you don't believe in paying taxes then how would food safety be paid for, or how would national defense be paid for?