Bitcoin Forum

things are changing. Apple pay and nfc payments are ready to go. APPLE has made agreements with main companies to have very low fees. And everything will be very safe, since fingerprint scanner and reliable iOS. I guess this will be the raising trend of next years. Other tech companies will follow. People will use their smartphones to pay basically everything. Cash will be increasingly obsolete. In 10 years or more it could even be banished. At that time, payments by smartphone will be so common and safe that even fees will be very low, almost 0. Because with the growing mass of people paying those fees, banks will be able to lower. Anyway here in UE fees are actually very low, 0,2% for debt card and 0,3% for credit card.
So let's face this problem. What is the place of bitcoin in this scenario of fast cheap safe Mney transferring? why should people use bitcoin? to Hyde their money? there are better systems. You can buy gold, or put money in a Swiss bank. Or until cash will be used, it will be the simplest solution. For people not so inside tech, it is easier to make a bag of cars than buying bitcoin.
And please don't repeat the old Bullshits of government, of new world order, Nsa watching us. These are cliche. There is no secret bank organization ruling the world. Banks are over there to make their profit offering services as every fucking company. Normal people are not even interested in hiding money, since they have nothing to Hyde. So should we appeal to criminals? It would be good if even only them used bitcoin, but I don't think so.
Well guys, if the Ponzi is going to burst, remember that I told you.

I think you'll find that Swiss banks are now more Jekyll than Hyde. :D

And if it doesn't, we'll forget everything you told us, to spare you the embarrassment? That suits me; I don't mind forgetting you. Don't let the door hit you on your way out.

keyword: realiable IOS
>reliable
>closed source
Pick one.

not even one senseful answer.

I know my English is not perfect. ok? Hyde, hide, whatever

If you don't want to own any Bitcoins, then you don't have to.

If believe that the only value in Bitcoin is low transaction fees, then you should sell all yours now and find something else to do with your time.

Don't worry - since Bitcoin is doomed so you won't be missing much.

Hey dumbass, Apple Pay is only for merchants accepting payment. Bitcoin is for everyone.

Say i want to sent your ass some nickles, now can you show me how Apple Pay would let me send that nickle straight up your ass? put your iPhone right up your ass and i click send from my iphone?

No one know you were dropped and kicked in the head by your mom ... until you opened this thread.

Okay, so my knowledge on Apple pay is not extensive. However, it is not comparable to Bitcoin on many levels. First, Bitcoin is a currency. Applepay is not a currency. Your money will still be subjected to the value and weaknesses of USD. Applepay does not have properties that will allow you to send money across the globe without consideration of nation states. (Gold does not have these properties either) Applepay is centralized and closed source. Payments can be undone.

From what I understand Applepay is paypal with NFC. Not anything like Bitcoin.

I know this is a troll post, but everything you just described good be applied to why would we use fiat when we can use bitcoin. There are plenty of reasons why bitcoin may be a better option, and I'm sure you're already aware of these.

I guess this dumbass sold his coins..... ;D Now hes hating.

un fortunately i cannot sell. I would lose 40% of my investment. Btc has deluded me a lot. At first I was involved and invested a lot, I had some savings I did not use them to live, so I tried. I won something first, I invested a second time and at third time I involved a big capital. I was unlucky. It was in December 2013.

yes plenty of reasons... same reasons you don't know and I don't honestly know too. Only reason I think bitcoin should rise is to make me rich and you too but hope is not enough. Ehi guys, face reality.... world is changing. Ban system is changing. Btc will soon be obsolete as every, every technology becomes. Sooner or later. I only hope later enough to reduce my loss at least. I hope in one small last bubble burst to retake my money and leave.

You like to invest into something you dont understand? Seems like a trend to you, and since you said  you "won" big.... i think you dont understand investment means..... to you its gambling.

So... now you keep making posts to show how retard you are?

Apple Pay is just a payment method service, which relies on a old as fck payment network "credit card". Do you know how many ppl with iPhone that is a subset of number CC holders?

So you think because millions ppl will use Apple Pay which makes the fees lower while did not even notice the fact that EVERY CC holders have been using CC and the fees have always been high. Now you want another middle man, and claim it will be cheaper?

You're a typical "make me rich quick scheme" The exact garbages that are attracted to bubbles. LOL at your investment btw :D

I like your sig, still begging for bitcoins?

not true. not true. Main companies apple has made agreements with are all over the world. Mastercard, Visa and such are all over the world. Basically almost every merchant with a PoS can accept it. Yes, apple pay is not a currency and will use local currency. That makes this strong. People are using fiat currency right now, fiat currency, even if there is inflation, quite small really, are strong. Why? because they are accepted as paying sistem in all territory  of the nation by everyone. so purple can trust fiat currency. And they can trust the payments system which is controlled by banks. They cannot make errors, see their money lost or stolen as with bitcoin Exactely for that reason, because there is a society responsible for their money. Bank has a debt with customer. With btc you are always risky. You never feel safe. If you pay something and you don't get the service, money is lost anyway. If a thkef steals your money, it is lost. If you have an address on your pc and your pc breaks, money is lost. If there is a bubble and bitcoin loses value, money is lost. While when happened thay a fiat currency lost 50% of his value in one week? when in history?
I am not saying that banks are good. They make profit, to much profit for my opinion for their real service. But the system is working right now. Hundred Billions dollars or euros move each hour everywhere and everything works. Yes, with some fees and a small inflation set by General reserve or what it is. But it works. With future payments made by nfc everyone will be able to pay with his bank account directly without carrying cash. Why would people use bitcoin? to try a new thing? to feel active brave against evil banks? to feel heroes? seriously.

You can only offend me. You don't understand how stupid is when an adult offends another adult man in the Internet. I find this quite silly and shameful. Anyway if you feel better, offend me. I think every word I have written.

And yes I invested in btc. I believed in the idea at first and wanted to make profit too obviously as you all. I invested in a risky thing aware of it and lost. I could gain profit, big profit, it did not happen. This does not make me stupid. Only stupid people can think that losing money happens only to stupid.

No way that's just crap bitcoin is open source and a Currency not a Payment system!

to give money to beggars on the internet:

what is wrong in telling your own story? people are free to make their choice. I am not a beggar. Even if I was one, I do t see why being a beggar is a so bad thing. They are unlucky people who need help. Only that

OP, you are missing the point of Bitcoin.

The reason people are so excited about Bitcoin is not that it will make paying for things easy. Paying for things easily has been around a long time. I was one of the people that started transitioning to cashless transactions, long before bitcoin. I'd pay for gas, groceries, restaurants etc., all using my debit or credit cards.

I even had a foolproof system, which I set up for my mom too after she was the victim of card fraud: create a small balance, transaction only checking account. For example set up a bank account with about $200-400. Never put any more money in. Use a separate checking account for your main account, and use the small checking account for day-to-day purchases. That way, even if your card is lost/stolen/fraud victimized, you can never lose more than the small balance.

This, to me, was ultimate convenience - even faster than ApplePay etc., because there is no fumbling with passwords, buttons, power or anything electronic. You just pull out your thin, lightweight plastic card and swipe it... bam, transaction approved. Done.

After I heard about Bitcoin and understood it I was BLOWN away at the possibilities and implications for it, and this had nothing to do with convenient transactions (I already had that). The first thing I recognized as valuable was the limited supply of 21M. That's in stark contrast to almost every other modern day money system which is printed - usually without transparency - by central banks, resulting in inflation and lost purchasing power. That feature alone is huge. Imagine if everyone in the world was stuck to the ground by gravity, but you had the ability to float. How much would that make you stand out? That's similar to the contrast between Bitcoin versus the rest of the world's money systems.

The second gigantic feature of Bitcoin is the ability to move value from one place to anywhere in the world, without asking permission, and as a bonus, without even paying much in fees, and in fact zero fees being possible. Anyone who can't see how incredibly powerful a feature that is simply doesn't have a good appreciation of the limits of financial systems the world has had for all of its history.

ApplePay, Google Wallet, debit cards, or whatever else you want to dream of for convenient payments is all built upon the existing old financial system. That's why Bitcoin remains quite relevant.

Bank cards protect the buyer, seller is still at risk of charge backs. 

with PayPal and Google wallet you can send money to everyone in the world without permission already.
Buy seriously, when does it actually happen that you need to pay someone from the other part of the world?  When t does thka happen in the life of. common citizen? Common citizen spends most life in his country, buying in  shops inside his country, not buying from abroad. Unless you buy on eBay on some limited case. But even there you usually pay the merchant as if it was in your country and problem solved.

Then, inflation. Inflation is not a negative thing. Inflation tells a lot of the economy of a nation at a certain moment.  small inflation is healthy usually. High inflation or deflation are negative. If for example you have 0,4% inflation a year, you would need 20 years keeping your money immobile to see them losing only 8% of their value. Bitcoin can lose 20% of its value in one day. Which one would you chose?

You cannot have a single money for different economies. That has already been done for Europe with euros and is creating many problems.

OP you smokin crack again?

Paypal , google wallet , webmoney are services
Bitcoin is a currency.

Paypal can use bitcoins , google wallet can use bitcoins.

It's not applepay or paypal vs bitcoin is fiat money vs bitcoin.

All those payment methods are awfully limited (and expensive) compared to bitcoin, not to mention that you have no control over your funds.

Apple pay might bring some features which are "clever" but as usual it's way overhyped. I also don't think that it's direct competition for crypto currencies.

Sorry if I just fed a troll, I don't follow this forum closely.

The thing is that you are not "telling your own story" you are asking for money. The fact that you ask for "even .01" overrides everything else in your post. If you wanted to tell your story then you should say that others should learn from your mistakes or others should learn from your experience.

Not only that but the logic in your OP is deeply flawed.

Of course you need permission. If PayPal, Google or whoever provides the service doesn't like you or the person you're sending to, then tough luck. Case in point: Visa/Mastercard blocking donations to Wikileaks. Or PayPal shutting down accounts of merchants based on their seemingly arbitrary rules.

It happens more and more. Most of the stuff we use is made in China, so more and more people are buying things directly from the source (through websites such as DealExtreme). Cross-Atlantic purchases (EU to US or vice versa) are also quite common, especially for specialty products. Then there are tons of immigrant workers from third world countries all over the world that send part of their income back to their family in the country of origin. Companies like Western Union make a fortune of these people that make up the poorest part of civilization.

Just because you may not use cross-border transactions much, doesn't mean that there's not a huge number of people that do.

You're confusing inflation with exchange rate fluctuations. The two are completely different and have different economical implications. Please read up on the basics. In addition, the theory that a small amount of inflation is healthy is only valid in the current debt-centric monetary system.

plonk!

paypal and google can decide to freeze your account along with all the money in it, now what do you do?



inflation is not a negative thing? do you like paying more for products?



the world was using a single money called gold for the last 5000 years, the paper money we currently have is a fraud that will end any year now.

the reason a single paper currency doesn't work in Europe is the same reason it doesn't work anywhere else,
you have a central authority that prints money and invests it how it sees fit, that's called central planning and it fails because the central authority doesn't have the information to know what (and how much) products people need and want.

this causes a misallocation of production resources so that not enough of the things people want get produced and instead a bunch of useless stuff the central planners thought are good for the economy get produced.

the only way to fix this is by having honest unprintable money such as gold and bitcoin which prevents the government and central bank of misallocating production resources (at least by money printing).

what makes someone a troll? your own arbitrary idea? OK, you are actually a troll on my opinion.  This thing of "troll" is getting a bit to far. I see many people saying their opinion being labelled as Trolls for that.

+----------+
|  PLEASE  |
|  DO NOT  |
| FEED THE |
|  TROLLS  |
+----------+
    |  |   
    |  |   
  .\|.||/..

Your post shows either a highly ignorant or a very deceitful content. It's either "you're stupid" or "you're evil". People don't assume that people of this stupidity would post on this highly technical forum, so they accuse you of being evil on purpose: trolling.

I will NEVER use Apple Pay. By principle and choice. NOBODY in my country will use Apple Pay. By technical and legal limitation, it's IMPOSSIBLE. To use Apple Pay, you need to be a privileged white hipster living in the USA, mainly. Everyone that's not casually rich or living there, can't use Apple Pay and will use other means. I can "use" Google Wallet, in the sense that I can shop on Google owned sites, but not as everyone else in the USA can.

Remember this, the population of eligible people is only 4% (USA versus world http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_world) and the probable number of actual users of this technology by next year (iPhone 6 estimates in the USA that can use this technology) is less than 0.03% of the world population.

Now you will understand that everyone else can and will use Bitcoin and your post is ignorant. If you continue to insist that Apple Pay (with 0.03% reach) will take over Bitcoin all over the world, you are a troll.

"i told you"

  ;D


when you have some time, start here and learn more:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0oDDIy0P2s

Apple and Oranges (bitcoin) comparison :)
PayPal with NFC as o,eBay in this thread called it is a great descriptin

Oh really? Try sending 1 billion dollars across the globe with PayPal and see how far you get, even 1 million, or heck try 25K. Ever since the scary terrists popped up the main banking system (the US) has made reporting transfers over 10K (even sometimes 1K) mandatory and possibly suspicious - unless of course you're a bank aiding terrorists and drug cartels (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/03/opinion/how-bankers-help-drug-traffickers-and-terrorists.html?_r=0).

Second there are billions of people in the world with no access to any banking services. With PayPal once you send the money the recipient still can't spend it, until they find a way to convert a PayPal balance into their local currency, usually virtually impossible. With Bitcoin all someone needs is a free Bitcoin wallet. There are people all over the world willing to trade bitcoins for local currencies, and growing all the time - as well as shops that accept bitcoins themselves as payment.


Bitcoin wan't built for Impros88 and the way only you use money; it was built for everyone in the world, and people all have different needs. People sending money from one country home to another country, called remittances, is extremely popular. It's a half-trillion dollar industry. Next, perhaps a reason people today don't often send money to people around the world is because it was impossible before. People didn't usually make cross-country trips or go over 70 MPH before cars were invented either. Does that mean cars were not a good idea since nobody used them in the 1700s?


I'm not even going to respond to this - there are plenty other discussions here and elsewhere on that - except to say you're arguing higher prices at the grocery store etc. is not seen as negative by ordinary people.

Bitcoin's volatility is decreasing the longer it exists, but even so anyone who has dollar cost averaged (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dollar_cost_averaging) into Bitcoin since 2010 has probably experienced increased, not decreased purchasing power overall (since Bitcoin is mostly up) .

Apple pay will provide a more seamless way for Bitcoin to be used in the near future.  Getting the consumer public away from *the mentality of using* tangible payment tools was a huge obstacle that Bitcoin no longer needs to surmount.

-B-

Bitcoin is quite the same in this regard, aside from the fact that merchants need even less infrastructure to accept Bitcoin and crypto.  Over time you will see more and more merchants accept Bitcoin because there is such a small barrier to entry for merchants in this market. The infrastructure and human time it takes to keep credit card and payment companies afloat will eventually be their downfall. (aka overhead)


Are you so willfully ignorant that you think people trust banks?  Read this survey: http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20130118005809/en/Americans-Don%E2%80%99t-Trust-Banks-Surveys-Find

A high percentage of younger generations are also moving away from high overhead banking/fiat systems. (aka the unbanked) Currently the baby boomers mainly keep the old system afloat. Wait 20 years.

 
You mean to say government steals my money to pay for the ignorant.

 
Last time I checked this applied to fiat too. (unless you go through a merchant like paypal) Bitcoin will have insurance merchants one day too.


SAME

 
This is extremely easy to prevent, Bitcoin payment processors will prevent this from happening as well.
 


The heavy volatility is only the process of Bitcoin moving from a commodity/collectable to a currency. Fiats go bust alot more than you think... http://georgewashington2.blogspot.com/2011/08/average-life-expectancy-for-fiat.
http://dailyreckoning.com/fiat-currency/




Because it works now does not mean it will work tomorrow, crime does pay!


Many crypto currency apps already use nfc, I just heard recently of an ATM that will accept payments through nfc.



I have not said anything that should offend you, maybe your mental contradictions are working on you emotionally?



Its too hard to read this.

ai was obviously talking of next years when new generation smartphone will have nfc, apple pay or Google wallets, more and more people will have nfc in their smartphones, and first of all, nfc payments won't be limited to USA only.
I am not talking of present day situation but close future very predictable. It was so obvious only a stupid  or a troll could not...

It's not a question of "payment systems", it's a question of currency integrity.

Applepay is just another way of paying by fiat - an unlimited instamine scam coin that the Fed can't stop mining at ultra low difficulty in order to hose down the US Treasury Bond interest rate so the country doesn't go bust in 10 seconds. It also requires expensive, slow and antiquated counterparties - not only to process the payment but to actually hold the balance in the first place.

Bitcoin, on the other hand, is a limited supply, rapid transit, counterparty-free electronic commodity that is about a million times more suited to trading on networks than fiat is - whatever gimmicks Apple come up with to try to hide that fact.

I would answer but to much to me to quote single sentences. Think freely man. We will See who was right in the near future...
Bitcoin can seem a good idea, a brave thing against the evil System (yes fuck the system, be a punk)  but de facto all past good ideas, the few applied, failed miserably. Think the biggest shame on this world, communism. A good idea, but failed. Society recovered and went back to what it was.

But seriously, do you think private citizens can defeat the governments? governments make laws. They can banish bitcoin in one day and make its use illegal. if we are still using btc is because we are a small bunch of nerds with to much free time in front of pc. When btc would be a problem and a threat for status quo, believe me, we would not even go close to that day. There would be a reaction much before.

You all live in a utopian world. I am here only because I wanted to make a fast profit, I am sincere.

you take into account always USA and its financial problems. Well world is not USA. There are many nations where inflation is very low and here in Italy in 2014 inflation was less than 0. we are going through deflation due to crisis. I provided source in my other topic or you can Google it.
So stop talking about USA. Bitcoin is not in USA. Many people live outside USA and are not even aware of what Federal Reserve is. ok?
So if usa has actually big inflation, it is a problem only in USA. You cannot link this to bitcoin adoption.

Google has had that for years, with Google Wallet, and it's not very popular. Some stores had the NFC readers for a while, but I've been seeing fewer of them lately.

The US actually has very low inflation, the inflation levels in the US are probably lower then it really should be because of the fact that a small economic shock could send prices into a deflationary spiral.

Also people often look to US economic indicators because it's economy is by far the largest and it's economy influences the economy of the rest of the world.

Yes it is actually.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bretton_Woods_system

The reason USA isn't getting "Weimar" style inflation from all the quantitative easing is because the Fed has instituted a clever mechanism for "magnetising" the new money back onto their own balance sheets, even though it's held by the commercial banking sector.

They offer a higher rate of interest on "excess reserves" which is the difference between the capital a lending bank holds and that which is required to satisfy the minimum reserve ratio. So lets say, a bank holds $1 billion in capital and has lent out $8 billion (via the fractional reserve multiplier). If the minimum reserve ratio is 10% then they'd have $200 million in excess reserves (since, to meet the minimum reserve requirement they only need to hold $800 million). *

So that $200 million goes back onto the fed balance sheet by way of the commercial banking sector "lending" it back to them at a profitable interest rate. It doesn't find its way out into the economy to start a "Weimar" situation.

I'm not sure of the numbers but there's some staggering amount of the money supply now backed up on the fed balance sheet in this way. I think it might be in the trillions. The problem with this is that it's a time bomb. What happens if interest rates start slowly rising again ? For example if there's a currency war with the Ruble or the Remnimbi and the US Treasury has to defend the dollar - does all that money supply come flying off the fed balance sheet and go straight onto Forex markets to be dumped instead ? That's when your bitcoin is going to come in slightly handy to say the least - as is anything tangible that anyone can get their hands on including metals, property, oil and farmland I imagine.

* Assuming convention or $1 billion = $1000 million which it is in my part of the world

EDIT: As I speak there are articles appearing on this !!...  http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-09-12/fed-has-big-surprise-waiting-you

This one's about the stock market which is being "pumped" due to the knock on effect of QE because that's the other place all the money is going - rock bottom interest rates are chasing it all into stocks. So if (when!) they start to rise there's going to be a bit of a tsunami happening.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-09-13/art-cashin-things-could-theoretically-turn-what-i-call-lehman-moment

I'd say apple pay is a novelty that has to be proven at this time.  Bitcoin is tried and true and guess what people like it, we like it a lot.  When scams start to proliferate more so with Apple Pay who is going to foot the bill?  Still many questions to be answered and that is part of the reason This feature hasn't been implemented sooner.  If anything I'd say it's a knod to Bitcoin that we're on the right track and if anything we should be following the example Apple has set, and make the ease of use of Bitcoin comparable to the Apple Pay or better.

As far as I'm aware Apple Pay requires a debit/credit card to use. So OP thinks everyone in the world has access to banks. Bitcoin requires no banks to work. Either you're a troll or have the IQ of an ant.

The interest that the Federal reserve pays on excess bank reserves is much less then what banks can make on loans to consumers, even after accounting for likely default rates on loans. The loans are not being made with the money the banks are getting from QE because there is not enough demand for loans from credit worthy borrowers. This has actually been discussed as a problem as with all the excess reserves, the fed will likely have difficulty raising interest rates when it needs to

Your an Idiot!?  Is that enough of a comment? Oh sorry Let me add one more little thing..

Here is a world 10 yrs from now, where many if not Most merchants businesses accept BTC:

Scenario:

I am Sydney Australia, and my friend is in Berlin. He needs some cash Instantly for a Taxi unfortunately he happened to drink a little too much and spent all his money for the night and forgot he needed a taxi (Taxi's In Germany accept BTC in this world) so he SMS me from across the world and says Bro can I ask you for a favour !! Can I borrow 0.04 for a taxi I am all out ..... I say yes no worries and send over the amount he wanted, Instantly he sees the transfer happen in his BTC wallet and transaction waiting for a confirmation, in exactly 7 minutes the money was in his wallet ready to spend. (Happened to be a fast confirmation today as it usually takes a whole 8-10minutes For the funds to be irreversible and CLEAR.

Can you tell me if I can do this with Apple Pay?

When they can't keep customers nude photograph safe then how are they suppose to keep their money?

Of course Apple pay will become standard of payment, the day Apple becomes bottom line of society.
Third world countries has high probability of accepting Apple pay because of their purchasing power.

Probably not with ApplePay but you can do it even faster and now with M-Pesa. ;).

Perhaps this has already been addressed on this thread...but will apple pay allow apps for bitcoin using this method...or is it locked out ie only cc companies

have not seen anything that BTC is locked out but definitely looks like BTC at best is ignored in all this hoopla

anyway if this has been addressed already reply with a link

you'd think someone would make an app for this if they are allowed to

Searing

OP = Entry into BTC ---> "Wow this is great, I will be rich within a year" / 1 year into BTC = "WTF why am I still poor?" / 1 year and 2 months = "Fuk..I did everything right, I bought 2 Bitcoins, did nothing, and waited, and It still shows no profit" / 1 year and 3 months = "FUK this.. BTC is full of shit" / 1 year 4 months = "Ah! Apple Pay is going to be BIG!, let me sell those worthless bitcoins ....../ 1 year and 5 months = Oh shit <---- Apple Pay sux! ...what next, I have to be rich soon.!!!!!!

Ok thats why they say... Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one ... Bye bye.. *Slap - This is not a get rich quick scheme...........

Average lifespan of a fiat currency over the past 500 years is 27 years.

You trust it & think it works because you haven't had the displeasure of seeing it being debased by greedy banks because it's no longer as profitable as it once was (recent example = Greece)

You seem to have taken the wrong approach to Bitcoin to begin with, it's not an INVESTMENT, it's morons like you that have inflated the price to more than it should be and then complain about it not being $100,000 like your friend told you it would be.

My suggestion? sell your BTC, leave this forum, never come back.

And in 3 years when you are going to be able to spend bitcoins with Applepay people reading this forum will wonder why all the fighting here.

Forgot to mention Bitcoin costs a few Cents per transfer!!

Mpesa? Lol

I just did a Mpesa look up,

This is just the first thing I saw when I typed Mpesa Australia.... Apparently http://www.mhits.com.au/send-money/ Is the place that does it and it ain't that instant because you have to load your Mhits account with money first. 2nd I can only send to 6 different countries, 3rd the person I am sending to needs to have a mhits wallet.

They also take a fee on the exchange rates from currency to currency

Then........

How much does it cost to send the actual money that you had to wait 2 days to reach your Mhits account?

To >>> Philippines: $5 + 1% of the amount* (If I want to send $350 here it will cost me $8.50) Imagine I want to send $10,000+

To >>> All other countries: $5 + 5% of the amount* (If I want to send $350 to Ghana $22.50 ) Imagine I want to send $10,000+

In fact there maybe limits with this, may not be possible to send more than a certain amount.

Comparison----

Bitcoin $350-$10000000000000 to anywhere = 5 cents... But to be fair this is in a world where most people accept BTC meaning you do not need to exchange back to $$ you can use the BTC to buy your food, fill petrol, watch a movie, catch the train Etc..... A world like this will be amazing.

Same for bitcoin , first you have to load your wallet with bitcoins.

As for transaction fees , if I were right now to go and buy bitcoins (without banks) from local bitcoins and then send to a friend in Spain I would lose 10% on every bitcoin I send , not to mention gas spent on driving to the nearest seller.

For example I can't get any coins below 510 and not more than 460 when selling.

And if I were to buy bitcoins from stamp and then sending them why not use bank transfer directly in the first place.

Not sure if you read my last part >> As I said --- TO be fair this would be a world where most people used BTC,

In Comparison --- In a world where most ppl used Mpesa you are still charged 1%-5% + $5 per transaction. AND I am only allowed to send it to 6 countires lol

I am talking about the normal way off acquiring BTC, I would never buy of local bitcoins, pure rippoff! .  I am in Australia and I will pay 1% above exchange rate to transfer from AUD to BTC But thats it. If I transfer money at 5pm It will be in BTC by 2am next morning. Soon there will be a debit card feature, where I can instantly buy BTC . There is no extra fee to use Debit Card. As time goes buy its going to be easier and easier to buy BTC and I believe it will become cheaper also. It is the on and off ramp into Fiat that costs money, oneday when many people use BTC and it stabelises you will not need to come in and out of fiat as often....  Transferring btc to btc cost peanuts, Mpesa to mpesa is still more expensive. Not sure why we are even comparing this.

This makes your argument about 6 nations also invalid.
If you assume bitcoin grows you would have to assume m-pesa also grows.

Fact is that while in 4 years bitcoin managed to get 50m transaction in the blockchain , Mpesa has close to that number in users.

If you use a bank to buy bitcoin , then the whole debate about sending money via bitcoin is flawed.
Because using a bank to acquire bitcoin , then sending bitcoins and making the other person use a bank to change those bitcoins for it's needs it's a mess that can be avoided with direct transfer.
Let's not talk about the fees , the spread in btc price that can make you lose more money than the damn wire transfer.

Bitcoin is not the best in this currently and blinkered zealots are not doing any good.

There are so many obstacles for bitcoin to become a real solution for money transfer and yet in the last two years the improvments are close to 0.
Sorry but that is reality.

Let's wait and see the real world application.
Apple will certainly publish some numbers in terms of transactions volume in a few months.

The interesting thing is that the picture uses the term "possible" when it comes to bitcoin...
From possible 7 billions to the 60k daily transaction...that is one hell of  gap that needs to be filled.

you don't get the point. I am not talking of present day situation. I am talking of near future, when other companies (Samsung, LG, One Plus et cetera) will make same agreements with merchant companies to make their smartphones equally useful for immediate payments (they already are, having nfc, but since they have no agreements with companies and smartphones are considered as payments without card, fees are higher).  Then, smartphones are no more an elite thing for rich people. I bought my galaxy s3 for 130 euro on eBay. And there are much cheaper smartphones out there. You could buy a good used smartphone for less than 50 euro.
So we must imagine that in the next future almost everyone will have a smartphone with nfc and ability to pay on the go. And everywhere. Since what is actually limited to only USA will be widespread all over the world. In one year, 2 years I don't know. But it's rather sure.
So please stop saying that Apple is only for rich people and Apple pay actually is only in USA. This is last time I repeat this. Try to learn to read properly before using bitcoin.

I own a couple bitcoin and if a possible 6 billion use a few possible bitcoin purchases a day then the price of bitcoin will possible sky rocket.  I will be a possible millionaire!  

So in fiction I am a millionaire from bitcoin, and in reality I have an iphone and will very likely use it to make a purchase in the next 6 months, and if that goes well, maybe many more after. 

Apple set the standard for using a mouse.  Yes, they were around before Apple, but after Apple they were standard.  The same for usb, ipods, the same for smart phones, and many more things.  And now I am guessing Apple pay will be the new standard.  It will surely be rolled out across the world.  Apple just needs to make deals with the major banks and creditors in those countries.  It got the three major credit card companies in the US and the four big banks.  That took some huge backroom negotiations.  It isn't like Apple could do that in every country once, but we know it is making a list of countries and regions to approach next. 

About Mpesa growing yes! but your argument still fails because Mpesa is still bound by federal bank and its limits. BTC is not. BTC potential is much greater.

And you totally missed all my points, If you read my first post I said in a world where most people accept BTC,  meaning once you receive the BTC you do not need to change it back into $... And you said you need to make an account for BTC? No you don't, all you need to do is simply download a wallet and give the sender your wallet address, done! you can now spend BTC. Literally within 15 minutes of not having anything to do with bitcoin, you can install an app and receive btc and start spending it anywhere there is internet.

And in regards to the on and off ramp from Fiat, no you don't need a bank account, you just need to be able to go to your local bank to deposit money into the BTC Exchanges account, more hassle that way but. Think of it like swapping $ for BTC... just like swapping gold for $ OR you can Mine it... You cannot mine Mpesa there is only one way to get it, bank or cash transfer.

And you talk about the spread what about the spread with mpesa? The actual -=currency exchange spread=- on top of the transfer fees with mpesa..  

You are comparing an -=Independent Bitcoin=- to a simple payment portal which is tied to the federal reserve...The reason right now people think BTC is flawed is because we are trying to use it like a payment portal swapping in and out BTC > $ > BTC...  Only an idiot would waste money like that I certainly do not like throwing money away. As I said more than once, in future when many people accept BTC and products are cheaper to buy using BTC and it is also cheap to swap $ > BTC.. this is when you will see BTC shine. This is all possible but because of everyone trying to make a piece of the pie this is the reason it is not worth it right now. It may be worth to buy and hold(deflation) and also spend when there are good specials or if you want to send large amounts of money to family or freinds overseas, but I wouldn't buy BTC to simply buy a coffee that's ridiculous, at least now it is anyway. There has already been promotions for sales with BTC, if BTC takes off further there will be plenty more of that also.

Anyways, I have said my point I will not be debating any further as I have better things to do.. As I said, If most people used BTC then you would not need to transfer it back into $, the only time $ will ever meet BTC is when you want to buy BTC to use but you would do this in lump sum so you would not need to do it for every transaction. Simply put! The future potential seems much greater for bitcoin, if the world sees it for what it is and can do and then embraces it! You will see what happens ;).

Curious though, if you do not believe in BTC why do you like roaming a BTC forum, seems like everything you say about it is negative.  

Actually, I do get it (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=782029.msg8815506#msg8815506), and neither am I.

Flawed logic , you can't receive bitcoins out of the blue , you have to pay for them. Meaning that there is a process far longer than 15 minutes involved.
Also what about a world where everybody uses the same bank so bank transfers are instant?




Again you're wrong.
I am tired of people saying bitcoin is the solution for everything , it is safer , it is faster it is bla bla bla but no , they are lead by dreams without seeing the actual stage bitcoin is right now.

While I'm actually bullish on btc I can't stop laughing at people claiming that there are no alternatives and that bitcoin is the best always.
You also use the argument of fees without thinking about progress in the other payments systems also.

How expensive was to make a phone call 10 years ago... how expensive is now?
Why shouldn't that happen to phone payments also?
Disregarding the improvements of other payments solutions and is a bad idea  when evaluating bitcoin.


ps,
Stop with that ,"if you don't share our opinion you're against us"  communist way of thinking.

1st I didn't say it was the only solution, in fact right now and the way BTC is , it is far from the best solution for all, it needs to grow up a hell of alot!! Your obviously only seeing what you want to see, In my scenario you said I can use Mpesa to transfer from Sydney to Berlin instantly which was not right, as out of the 6 countries Germany was not one that i can use mpesa to send too from Aus. :D This is how this started. Anyways my opinion -- BTC even at the moment with its the flaws has more features and services than Mpesa has and is more transferable and reachable worldwide.  But yes at this present time for many people it is hard to come in and out of BTC from $ , but this is not my point my point is My scenario lol

And yes Its obvious that you need to buy it, just like buying gold ... But you can also mine it if your willing. If you want ANY currency that is worth something in the world you have to buy it you cant just clap your hands and there you have it, the only problem we have at the moment is people wanting a piece of the cut when doing the exchange to profit their business .

Lastly, about your same bank claim, actually you might find this interesting -- me and my wife are with the same bank, but separate accounts. Guess what? It is not instant :O YEP that's true... -=Not instant=-, takes 1 business day. UNLESS we are Joint account holders , then any account you open under the account holders is instant to transfer between them.  And one last thing, Do you know how hard it is to open a bank account in most western countries? Lets just say I did not have a bank account but I wanted USD not BTC, I am talking about the dollar, now someone from Berlin wanted to give me money, did you know its actually a lot harder and a longer process to accept USD than it is to accept BTC.

PS: I do not disagree with you, BTC still needs a lot of work and yes its not the best solution for all, I also don't believe that BTC will stop wars and I do not believe in this utopia of freedom that some people think BTC will achieve. I just simply believe it is a simple powerful protocol with tonnes of potential.. And I really hope the core devs dont mess this up and progress in the right direction with more transparency of future goals etc etc.

Change your bank.Seriously. I live in the worst country in EU and still transactions between accounts on the same bank are instant.
There are 3 banks with which I tested this Erste Bank , BT and ING.

And about how hard it is to open... want to bet that I will open a usd or euro  account on any bank here in less than 15 minutes?

Your telling me you can open a bank account without proper ID in 15 minutes and you can transfer money to this bank account and also withdraw from this bank account? even if you can to this in 1 business day that's impressive but I Doubt it and if its all so easy, then whats all this talk about the Un-banked? Why don't they all just open an account in 15 minutes.

With BTC you dont need ID because ID doesn't matter , its trustless. I can download an app, accept btc from china and then send the same btc to indonesia all within 15minutes... try doing that with a bank lol

And I am with one of the Big 4 Banks of Australia. The instant transfer doesn't matter in my case as everyone already accepts it will take 1 day. I am talking about International money transfers. where it is not possible to be with the same bank

I received some money back from a friend while I was in town. I had quite a few things to do , and the sum was pretty big so I entered the first bank I opened an account then went to the cashier and deposited the 1500 euros instead of risking to lose or getting robbed.

It was around 15 minutes in all.

About the talk , it's probably most bank haters.
Reminds me how happy those that criticized visa were when they were able to get their money back from the failures such as hashfast.Those that payed with bitcoin....ended up in tears.

And no , you can't send those coins in 15 minutes either. I probably was the unluckiest guy , trying to do a localbitcoin transactions just when one of the infamous >30 minute blocks happened. But shit can happen. Also most merchants use at least 3 confirmations.

The problem with your reasoning is that you claim everybody will be able to use btc directly in the coming years with no more banks needed to transfer the btc into cash but for once don't think that international transfers might be cut down to hours or even minutes.

So you take into account improvements only on one side.

Bitcoin has a lot of advantages but in it's current state has a lot of cons too.
And if you start thinking that the - will go away in time , probably this will happen to other services as well.


PS.
Check threads about paypal from two years ago and the new ones.
You will see how things have changed. If applepay will use bitcoin you're going to be a fan too :).

That's only insurance which can be provided for bitcoin. It's the biggest obstacle front of wider adoption in my opinion.

I'm ok with using btc without it, but the average person needs it badly.

Bitcoin is freedom. :)

OP is just a stupid troll, but I just can't resist to say something like "fuck you, you stupid sheeple, you don't get Bitcoin REVOLUTION at all".

"And please don't repeat the old Bullshits of government, of new world order, Nsa watching us. These are cliche. There is no secret bank organization ruling the world. Banks are over there to make their profit offering services as every fucking company. Normal people are not even interested in hiding money, since they have nothing to Hyde. So should we appeal to criminals?"

Oh no. OP deserves slow and painful death. Cattle. He is good for meat can.

do you know why you get angry? because you know that what I say is true. Only losers and idiots offend people by Internet so I won't do that.
You get angry because I am saying the truth. Bitcoin could fail really quick for many many reasons, you would see your money lost and you cannot accept it.
Oh yes I know your logic... it is like a religion... you have to believe...you have to have Faith, otherwise you are an enemy. This is worse than Muslim integralism.
I am. not a troll, I really fear that bitcoin will fail. I cannot seem because I would lose to much. And there is a possibility bitcoin will not fail so I wait.

First of all credit cards have always been safe for consumers because of the fact that banks cannot hold them responsible for unauthorized purchases.

Secondly the fees will have to be higher then using a credit card without apple acting as an additional middle man. Apple will demand some kind of a profit (as it does with every other service it provides), as will the other middlmen involved in these credit card transactions.

not at all. Fees will be even less than usual.

People who don't do research and can't control emotions at least to some extent should not invest in anything. Trading any investment lacking knowledge and a proper plan while at the same time expecting only positive returns on that activity is madness.

Based on the recent negativity and capitulation voiced by a growing number of people here I'm quite sure that the bottom is in.

ya.ya.yo!

Still not getting why people seem to think that Apple Pay will make bitcoin useless? It really baffles me that people will think that and makes me wonder if people realise that Apple Pay and bitcoin are two completely different things so in which case how can bitcoin really be made useless form that? Unless I am missing something?

Yeah to me Apple Pay and Bitcoin represent 2 mostly non-overlapping spaces. I have never thought that Bitcoin would be that useful for making day-to-day micro transactions to retail vendors through a smart phone. Yet lately there have been many relatively new accounts making posts inferring that Bitcoin has failed because it is so difficult or impossible for the average Joe to use it to pay for their $5 latte or settle their $50 bar tab. Don't they realize that it good for much more than that? Bitcoin can be successful without capturing the small transaction space.

put away online transactions and daily payments in stores what is left? oh yes people sending big money to their relatives from the other part of the world. Billions people doing that. I have just sent 50000 dollars in bitcoin to my relative in Australia. I would have spent 50 dollars in a safe bank transaction but why to do that when I can trust Tje bitcoin network? In worst case btc will be lost or stolen. Oh how can my grandpa in Australia convert his 500000 dollars in bitcoin back to dollars? Maybe he can ask some friend who could steal the money.
Yeah whatever. Btc is lost. Let s deal with it.

Well I would argue that apple pay would actually get merchants to encourage payments via bitcoin. Apple pay would likely get people comfortable paying for things with their smartphones which is something that is necessary for people to be comfortable using bitcoin on a large scale. 

Once merchants realize that payments via bitcoin are much cheaper then payments via applepay/credit cards they will start to offer discounts for bitcoin payments. The savings will increase in terms of percentages for smaller transactions because credits card companies usually charge a fixed rate plus a percentage for the transaction fee

nothing to do with the thread or bitcoin, but dr. Jekyll was the good guy,  mr. Hyde was the deranged alter ego.

Just because apple offers this service does not mean that everyone will use it at any price. In order to use apple pay the consumer will need to pay ~3% in credit card fees (the merchant actually pays these but this is passed onto the consumer). This is not something that is necessary to pay for when someone is using bitcoin. It would be unlikely that these fees would ever go away because of the number of "middle men" involved in the processing of a credit card transaction.

Bitcoin is good for anything that is banned by governments. For instance, Argentina and China have capital controls that limit how people can change their pesos or yuan into US dollars. It is hard to move money out of those countries, and others, because they have capital controls. You can't send 50,000 dollars to your grandpa in Australia because the government blocks you. The way around this blockage is bitcoin, which cannot be blocked. Bitcoin routes around government edicts that limit the flow of the free market. If you can't see the usefulness of that then you must be a total statist.

All payment systems compete with each other. They overlap on TOP of each other.

Is there a apple coin?
centralized coin?   ;D

yes this is honestly  true but this usage is very limited. Therr are not so many cases and nations where government blocks and controls your transfers. Not in the western world at least. Don't say the opposite because it is not true. I live in Italy and I can send whatever I own to everyone I want. I guess this is the same in every nation. And yes I will have to pay some fees... last time I sent money to mtgox in Japan and payed 15 euros or 20 for thousands euros,... not a big deal.

Good luck buying over 50 000$ worth of btc in china and then sending them to another country and there changing them back into usd.
The amount you're going to waste in fees , spreads and headaches you're far better sending posts cards with bills inside them.

Hold on to your coins.

And in the future, don't invest more than you are willing to lose.

When Apple pay is decentralized, open source, anonymous, and costs a few pennies, then Apple will be a threat to bitcoin. I would not even consider using it. It's just another suckers system to separate you from the burden of your money one dollar at a time. They have about as much chance with me as the airlines have selling me their stupid frequent flier miles.

Apple and the big Guys are not on the side of the people, they may start off with low prices but their ultimate aim is HUGE PROFIT.
Altcoins, at their core are very altruistic and will always challenge them, providing the NWO doesn't initiate WWIII long term I think the Altruism behind  cryptocurrencies will eventually win.

Lets not forget that most people do not have or will have any time soon, an iphone 6 (or 7,8,9 etc) in order to use this PoS service. Android has by far the majority in global marketshare right now and apple has no plans to break into emerging markets in a large scale with reasonably priced phone models to tackle this. So as long as apple continues its marketing direction and price structure, bitcoin will always have the PoS tech edge.

This is one of the funnier things that I have read today...haha

You are missing the point. Let's leave it at that.

I agree that bitcoin has the most potential in emerging markets, which also happens to be that apple has very little market share and likely has no plans to attempt to enter the market of. As for the "1st world" market, apple does hold a very large market for smartphones and all the smart phone manufacturers tend to try to offer the same kind of features that other manufacturers offer in order to stay competitive.

that is nonsense. I would not like to lose anything. This rule of "not investing what you cannot afford to lose"  does not help, there is not a certain am9unt of money you can afford to lose and neither you can afford to lose. Basically people don't want to lose 10 dollars as they don't want to lose 1000.
Yes,I am holding. I will hold at least until I will be able to sell back at price I bought. If I Will need to wait 3 years, I will wait 3 years. I won't lose anything. That is my site and only rule I gave myself with btc.

funny part is that he did not even get my point. That idiot talks like I have not understood anything of the few Bulls hits you american/english/whatever are stating As if you were the only clever guys..  well you are not.
You know a really funny thing?  I am Italian and American or English  students and people in general are considered by everyone here as idiots... especially students are very much worse than our average students in terms of deepness of thinking and intelligence, not to talk about knowledge and studying. And they don't even know what we think of them...  they still continue wandering in the streets in the center with their silly empty minds and  alcol addiction thinking to be "cool" while everyone laughs at them.  Yes funny. Go drink your beer, faggot.

Your friend should really call his friends or his parents rather than waiting for you to help with the taxi fare...
Last block 48 minutes ;).

Would be good if HTC and Samsung went to include a native Bitcoin app on their next devices as a direct competitive move for Apple pay.  Would totally fudge up apples stratagy  ;D

I wouldn't touch anything Apple with a 10 ft pole. Apple would be begging to have anything to do with Bitcoin, let alone making it useless

OP's sry. but:

http://jasonapril.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/bpgpidiigaafji1-large.jpg?w=584


PS: I'm currently losing money with BTC. That doesn't mean I'll come out with this "fuck all this is ponzi" shi@ plz... You so buthurt its funny

i have never feel good with apple's strategy  :P

Apple is a fraud, apple pay will never be the as bitcoin.

But Applepay can incorporate BTC in the future.

OP has literally NO IDEA what he is talking about :(

if you casual Internet nerdish basement dweller says so without even saying why, it must be true. No doubt.

Just because a transaction is 0/unconfirmed does not mean that the inputs are not able to be spent. For a transaction this small, the taxi company would likely accept it as well.

The OP's friend does not need to call his parents because he can use the bitcoin that was sent to him. His friend can simply spend the bitcoin that was sent to him. There is nothing in the protocol that prevents someone from spending an unconfirmed input

There's Breadwallet though..

Why can you say that? From what his happening now.. Paypal is on its way to embracing the ideals of bitcoin.

Paypal formed partnership with Bitpay, Coinbase and Gocoin.

I think some people won't use apple pay / nfc payment because some nude photos leaked
That mean apple not secure enough  ;D


Don't keep / use your bitcoin from that service

Everything is a business strategy.. It doesnt matter what they are getting as long as they are getting.

Apple pay will make no inroads into my economy. I use only the best money, only bitcoin.
They are not even comparable ideas, IMO.

Hopefully it will end up being the opposite, and BTC ends up making apple pay useless. And this is coming from someone who uses a lot of Apple products...

The possibility to pay using the NFC technology it is not an apple's exclusive. You can do it since 2006.
Really i don't think Apple Pay will change the bitcoin's world so hard  ;)

I don't know why people are harassing him. I feel most claims are legit. I own both AAPL and BTC but don't feel like for one to win one has to lose

It is easy to say bad stuff why Bitcoin will fail when we're in a bearmarket. It happends in stocks too, bankers suiciding talking about the end of the world etc..
Then when it goes up everybody is a financial genius.  :D


Bottom line ofcourse companies like AAPL will COMPETE with Bitcoin because it is a huge market and if interest grows why shouldn't they?
Competition is healthy and Bitcoin is niche as it is anyway... I don't think many using Bitcoin will use APPLEPAY.

un fortunately i cannot sell. I would lose 40% of my investment. <- this is some worrysome logic tho

You are comparing against 2 different things. Apple pay is still based on fiat and not a currency in the first place

applepay is just a gimmick.. its still using fiat. all that has changed is that the debit card now chunkier has a touchscreen. its still taking something out your pocket and putting your hand near a machine.

if you watch the demo you see people pressing a few gestures on the screen to get into the applepay app and then holding the home button for 5 seconds..

so think about it practically.
take a debit card out of your pocket put it into a machine and press 4 digits (your pin number)
now
take out your iphone, swipe the screen to unlock the touchpad, open the applepay app, hold the ipone near a NFC reader and hold the home button for 5 seconds.

most people think that iphone is more practical compared to debit cards.. the reality is that you end up doing more muscle movements with an iphone. and have to rely on the fact that your phone has battery power.

now let me list the downsides of applepay compared to debit cards.
1. battery life of phone - you cant buy anything unless phone is charged up
2. requires you to enter your phones pin to activate screen
3. anyone standing within a few feet of you can 'sniff' the data being sent (yes they can)
4. if you have a cracked screen, your bankwont send you a new ipone to allow you to continue buying stuff
5. apple take a fee,
6. its still FIAT being used

i personally would say that applepay is the introduction people can use into bitcoin, letting people see that they can pay through a phone wallet. thats the gimmick part done..
but then introducing the new currency bitcoin as the deflationary and more secure/non-chargeback, little to no fee alternative.

applepay in my eyes is just a wallet app for fiat.. not any better than debit cards, not any faster than debit cards not any cheaper than debit cards.

If you believe in what bitcoin is trying to do, then stick with it. We still have a long road ahead of us.

Lol...guys why you wasting time on this clown.

At best he's a blathering idiot but more likely some shill of sorts for some interest group.

Apple and bitcoin should not compete with each other. They should use each other to gain more users and money.

Some day Applepay will use BTC.

This is a non event because Apple pay is going to fail.

Yes because the Great Pirate Rabbit is developing offline storage tech that's phenomenally cool and when they go mainstream, you're gonna want one so hard! :D

people live for apple products.  how many million spend $600+ for their new phones every year?  to do the exact same things possible on the previous generation too...

these people will start to use apple pay, and if the fees are low enough to enable sending of money worldwide that is a big hit to btc.  that was one of the biggest things btc had going for it.  companies are going to beat btc to the punch, before it gets too big

You cannot send money anywhere with apple pay. It is only for "in person" transactions when you phone transmits your credit card information to the merchant in an encrypted format. People are saying that apple pay is a threat to bitcoin because of the hope that bitcoin would be used in a retail setting (buying things in physical stores)

don't compare between
apple pay with bitcoins ,its different ... ;D

You know what apple pay is? Credit card on your phone. Now that isn't very safe is it?


Exactly!

Just no. Apple Pay is more than simply using your phone in lieu of your credit or debit card.

Please look into the matter before making wild incorrect assertions.

but when they add new features, such as sending money to other people, it will further weaken bitcoin, and give it one less feature to tout over fiat.

It is different... :) Still apple will walk hand in hand with bitcoin to make more money..

Bitcoin is first and foremost a commodity like a new digital gold (instead of moving tons of dirt, lots of numbers shifted) and secondary can be used as currency just like gold. Money is not something you buy you take it with one hand and spent with the other.
Satoshi is so far ahead of everyone its not funny.

Apple & Bitcoin?

There is a fundamental flaw in this sentence.

There is a difference between the moron that "Invests" in Gold at $1800 because is "going to da moon and JP Morgue and the Banksters are rigging COMEX" and the guy that don't believe in the current fiat system and purchases a roll of american silver eagles each year and a St. Gaudens every year on his birthday. For this last guy, the price is irrelevant.

Don't get me wrong, every profit *realized* (this word is very important) is always welcomed, and everyone loves to earn a buck, either in a 3x2 savings in the Mall or selling checkCoin at 3200 satoshis and repurchasing it at 1700.  ::)

But i know a lot of people that are buying Bitcoins since a couple years now. They buy at $200, they buy at $600, they buy at $800 and now at $400. They buy it, reinvest it on mining, startups, NXT Asset Exchange companies, Exchanges stocks, etc. They are effectively "investing" on BTC. But thats not a buy low sell high scheme.

You sound like the standard case of latecomer looking for a quick buck. You will get burned that way. Stabilize your priorities, set yourself a goal, revise what do you really think about BTC and choose a course of action. Even if you bought at $800 30 BTC , if you decide to sell at $300 it will be a nice option to restart again in some other field which you know best and / or feel more comfortable with.
This is my advise, with all respect.

I think so too.. That is why bitcoin is still on down side as of today.