Bitcoin Forum

http://iforce.co.nz/i/znfxxhdr.qxn.jpg

New landing page: http://www.butterflylabs.com/landing/

alt="Butterflylabs Great Shot" hah.

Not sure if supposed to be public? :>

Looks like a single?

That's just a single.

Pretty landing anyway!

I am 90% certain that is a REV3 single. 

In fact.....it is identical. 

I guess I found the page too soon. I should have waited ;).

i hope for $1299 it's bigger than that. 

so they have like, just over 2 weeks to release it for october 1st, and 1 month and 2 weeks before it's considered late!

They already said it's not coming until november

really?

link?

Check their website, they adjusted to october/november. But the refund process is still end of November if you want a refund for failure to deliver.

gotcha.  thanks.

BFL have stated on here that it will not be before late Oct/ early Nov!

Do you have a photo of a current single to compare?  I don't have one.

I just looked at the one sitting on my desk with the cover off......

try this....there is a pic of a rev 3 single halfway down. 

http://www.butterflylabs.com/production-update/ (http://www.butterflylabs.com/production-update/)

:( I am 100% sure that is the rev 3 single, would have liked to see an SC pic or drawing.  Nice page.

Let me add that it is or would be great to see any changes to the site even if it is an current single model shown.  Not having any new news, pictures or anything on the site is just really sad and I know they have other things to worry about but for those of us waiting in line outside the store it would be nice to see something going on inside the store.  So happy to see this pic.

Putting it in stone now, i call bullshit. If birth certificates can be photoshopped, why not this Single SC image?

It even looks like the regular single with just another heatsink slapped on top...

Yes, the only difference between that image and the following image of the Rev 3 FPGA Single are the small copper heatsinks (thanks yochdog):

http://www.butterflylabs.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Rev_3_hashing.png

I also just noticed that they updated that landing page with a $ in front of the mini-rig price...so it's actively being worked on.

deceptive marketing

I am SHOCKED they would engage is deceptive tactics. 

Literally NOTHING they have done to this point would lead me to think they could do such things!

I agree, this looks to me like a marketing idea page and the photo is just an idea or place holder.  I think it was just put out on here to show that BFL is thinking of stuff while they get things going and not something to be deceptive.  I thought it was a nice idea to show us something and who knows maybe the ASIC platform will pull allot from the FPGA.  Again happy to see that BFL is still moving forward and that something (even a marketing page) has come out. 

Wow sensitive group,

Collective heavy flow day.

Poor things.

Come on now, the page isn't publicly linked to from anywhere and it's still being worked on (see my post on noticing the added '$' on the MiniRig price).  BFL_Josh retracted his unsubstantiated statements regarding the performance of your ASIC devices compared to BFL's.  You could have the same courtesy and not sling mud.

Dollar sign fixed, looks like someone is still working on the page so I wouldn't judge them, yet.

2) Common sense.

I said know not assume

How do you know the PCB of your iPhone is different than your desktop motherboard? Have you ever opened them up to look at them?

Because they are manufactured by different companies, and the cases are completely different :)

But you don't know, you're just assuming. :)


The entire idea that the PCB is reused is retarded. It would imply a ridiculous number of sacrifices and inefficiencies for almost no benefit. Now, they might be able to design the new PCB so that they can use the same cooling and cases which would produce a very similar looking board, but I will place a 200BTC escrowed bet against your 20BTC that the PCB isn't exactly the same between the two, if you're interested. :)

I will hold the bets and act as escrow agent. 

It's my thread, I will. But I will charge 220BTC.

Look at the FAQ page. It gives the dimensions of the SC single, I believe its the exact same dimensions as the revision 3. 4x 4x 3, I believe..

They also state that they will try to put together as many machines as possible to be sent out at once. So, the first shipment will most likely be the first of November.. They also clarified their 1/3 rule for the first month orders...

Ar

They used the picture of an FPGA single because they want people to believe they have a working product and for people to order the product, when they probably have NOTHING done at all yet.

I bet they won't even come up with a working product, and rather run with everyone's BTC and money and all trade ins.

Isn't that a smart idea for a scammer?  Get people to trust them by shipping out FPGAs that are working, pretend they have an ASIC coming and wait for the trade ins and just run?

We've already seen it.  They're deceptive and trying to trick people. 

They really probably don't even have the investment capital to fully design and develop an ASIC.  It's a joke.

So unless they really come out this is what my thoughts are.  Don't pre order unless you can find a WORKING product.  There's no guarantees they will follow through with it, and we have absolutely no proof they are working on the product, no pictures or anything.

This is what people have been saying since the begining, all these supposed ASIC sellers are full of shit.

Yep, so I'll just continue with actual working products, such as GPUs and FPGAs.  Those are existant, ASICs for bitcoins are not physically existant at the moment.

For those of you who are concerned about the recent rise in difficulty, you wont have to worry for long. As soon as the trade-ins are lifted and BFL (and cablepair) disappears into the mist, hash power will drop right back down to the pre-FPGA days.

LOL you two crack me up!

absolutely true! maybe the next major scam in the Bitcoin history!

did you receive a ASIC prototype as BFL mentioned?

Nope, but I got a FPGA Single in the mail. That was just to convince me they're a real company so I'll buy more ASICs, amiright? Those evil bastards at BFL are geniuses!

I suppose Newegg is probably doing the same thing" building both their brand name and a customer base over years of good products and quality support at decent prices, just so they can rip me off later on down the road. You've convinced me. From now on I'm only going to shop for computer parts at Wal-Mart, where I can see and hold what I'm buying in my hand!

There's a reason why they call it the "long-con"

So you agree with me. You're going to start shopping exclusively at Wal-Mart too?

did pirateat40 payout interest in the early days of his business? yes or no?

How exactly can Wal-Mart rip you off if you're receiving an actual product that works?

There is no sign that BFL has a working ASIC product as of yet.  And why would they use deceptive marketing?  That's a really bad practice.

Another good point that is in fact true is that BFL did not develop the FPGA on their own.  Someone can easily buy that chip from the supplier for BFL.

In the case of ASICs however, BFL does not have a supplier and is therefore dependent on developing the ASIC themselves.  The FPGAs were different, some other company developed them.

Knowing that one can state that BFL may not have the experience needed to fully develop an ASIC.  The FPGA single is not CUSTOM at all.

exactly! until now BFL ASIC products with all the preorders is nothing other than a ponzi scheme until there is a real proof that a BFL ASIC exist.

I don't think that work means you you think it means. Please stop throwing around scary words that aren't even applicable. Pirate ran a ponzi, that much is true. In fact he ran a pretty textbook example of a ponzi. EVEN IF all these accusation are true, and BFL is one giant elaborate, year long, multi-million dollar con, it can't even be considered a ponzi in any way.

give me, us and the community a proof that BFL has an custom ASIC chip developed and produced. it is up to BFL to clearify the situation if they are customer oriented which I hope! only one proof, a photo, a prototype something like this. no big deal!

EDIT: and I mean a photo of the new ASIC board not of the old FPGA board here: http://www.googleadservices.com/pagead/aclk?sa=L&ai=CtqlKFjhUUL-5KsHa-gaoyoHwDf-P3ZgD_-er7UC36q-6exABIMekoB1Q2_SVo_z_____AWCVwpmCrAegAem6iuMDyAECqAMByAPdBKoEYE_Qt6NC-P6r89hTGZAdBVz9cyrbwo9L1LOf93mZ8RzBAmMfUQUHeyKRP3GfhULOcF7vkTVwF3xsizOVbtlcUpsEjuiVTkYg26Ujr_Kmi45kl9w8EKln8CSjoaD9-Sc35ogGAaAGAg&num=1&cid=5Ghoqpc_VeYfjYtIxMwH_XHg&sig=AOD64_14gFQ-xSbRHs9lk2_OYjkwdnofLw&client=ca-pub-7496764558485520&adurl=http://www.butterflylabs.com/landing/&nm=4&nx=396&ny=33&mb=2&clkt=103&jca=8274&bg=!AwcTv5DvAgAAAAoqAJJ3Vw5YIumPRGq5uJaaztLtHEYbfz0-DX0WEpMMopP3c5rI30adeuSec29eSwg80AphHqQjRFJ9uYMfQ9Cf30opgmcktuU9HLHHOzHCUS7IkSMxULjIvOFutCvRAmuiFM0WZRgqEK_uHA-FKCDftKXCYAdy63ZaThQtVROb4UppfFF7YJzGmtEgoAK-FwAyH3Re7A (http://www.googleadservices.com/pagead/aclk?sa=L&ai=CtqlKFjhUUL-5KsHa-gaoyoHwDf-P3ZgD_-er7UC36q-6exABIMekoB1Q2_SVo_z_____AWCVwpmCrAegAem6iuMDyAECqAMByAPdBKoEYE_Qt6NC-P6r89hTGZAdBVz9cyrbwo9L1LOf93mZ8RzBAmMfUQUHeyKRP3GfhULOcF7vkTVwF3xsizOVbtlcUpsEjuiVTkYg26Ujr_Kmi45kl9w8EKln8CSjoaD9-Sc35ogGAaAGAg&num=1&cid=5Ghoqpc_VeYfjYtIxMwH_XHg&sig=AOD64_14gFQ-xSbRHs9lk2_OYjkwdnofLw&client=ca-pub-7496764558485520&adurl=http://www.butterflylabs.com/landing/&nm=4&nx=396&ny=33&mb=2&clkt=103&jca=8274&bg=!AwcTv5DvAgAAAAoqAJJ3Vw5YIumPRGq5uJaaztLtHEYbfz0-DX0WEpMMopP3c5rI30adeuSec29eSwg80AphHqQjRFJ9uYMfQ9Cf30opgmcktuU9HLHHOzHCUS7IkSMxULjIvOFutCvRAmuiFM0WZRgqEK_uHA-FKCDftKXCYAdy63ZaThQtVROb4UppfFF7YJzGmtEgoAK-FwAyH3Re7A)

Umm you know there have virtually no information about the bASIC or Reclaimer series of ASICs, except for price, estimated performance, and estimated ship dates. 3 different companies have all announced ASICs, they've all 3 announced pre-orders, and all 3 are within about 20% of each other's performance. Yet here, only BFL gets to be the lucky scapegoat. I don't see you calling the other 2 "non-customer oriented". I don't see you asking those other 2 for proof. Other's have, and I konw Tom spend pages upon pages refusing to show any proof of his bASIC. Is he a con too? If you have done either of these, I take my comment back, but I just don't understand all the BFL hate.

right, but in the moment we speak only about BFL because they did start with this ASIC discussion months ago! the others will follow to be discused. but be fair give them the whole amount of time wich we gave BFL too. BTW I know only bASIC doesn't know a other with a ASIC product anouncment.

Correct.

BFL is however the most discussed and speculated on this forum and therefore it is a good example of what could be a scam. 

I would not invest in any other companies or groups here announcing an ASIC because they have not provided proof either. 

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=108375.0

thank you, I saw it already but thought it is based on BFL or bASIC and isn't an own product of Tycho. I suppose we have to wait 6 months and then the situation would be clearer.

No no no. They will ship the ASICs alright, and then they will start scamming customers with the money made from their next product line. Although a different tactic could be employed, where they also ship this next product line, and THEN pull the plug. It's god damn brilliant if you ask me.

The Bitcoin community has made BFL rich on nothing but words.  It is irrelevant whether or not they develop an ASIC .  BFL has won.  There are even people sucking BFLs balls in their signatures praising them for a product which doesn't even exist yet.

Yeah, if they indeed come out with a working product then I will buy from them.

Meanwhile the people arguing for BFL have nothing but to hope they come with a product because they pre-ordered without thinking it through.

Why would BFL even have pre-orders?  It's because they didn't have enough money to even develop an ASIC.  Think about it, if only 100 people pre ordered for ASICs and no one else they would never come out with a product.

So all those shipped FPGA parts are nothing but words?  I mean, there are certainly questions about BFL's progress with ASIC, but they are a real company that has real products and has been shipping them to consumers.

Yeah, this has really been surprising me. Crazyates, are you getting some kick backs for the ad in your sig? Not that there's anything wrong with that, I'm just curious.

Also, psy (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=9477) is another one. Any incentive for you?

I.D.I.O.T.S.   I.N.   T.H.I.S.    T.H.R.E.A.D.


Sorry but no other way to describe it :)

There's a thread where Josh is soliciting user sig space for ads.

Edit:  Found here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=105853

Yeah, looks to be an ad campaign.  Is BFL not selling as many pre-orders as they hoped?  ;)

Finally, good to see theres others on this forum with their eyes open. The long con, raise your reputation with one wave, then when wave #2 comes around; time to break out with all the btc & fgpa trade-ins leaving the customers with dick. The people that are backing BFL are acting exactly the same way people would act when somebody would call pirate out for the douchebag scammer he is before things went south, the channel itself was a total homofest filled with ball guzzling to the max. The only reason somebody would act like this is due to either a payoff, or that they've invested way to much to believe in anything that may differ from what they were told by <insert douche here>.

Before you start complaining about the company being to big, or having to much rep, need i remind you about pirate? Up to 5 million usd stolen, and perfect rep before the payouts died ....

Where on their website did you see a link to this ad ? or was it a BFL representative that posted it in the forum ?

Yes, BFL_Josh is buying (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=105853) sig space.

Listen, I have no personal love for BFL. I get why people want to hate them, down with the man and all that. They come into the BTC world, dominate the FPGA market, and now the ASIC market, with the best MHs/$ products. People think they're stifling competition. I understand why people don't want a monopoly, but in a free market, where anything can go, they can sell whatever they want, for whatever price they want. You as a customer can buy, or not buy.

People are boycotting BFL to put their money into someone else's (not BFL's) product, thinking they're encouraging competition. I say that discourages market growth. If BFL offers the best product at the best price, then they get my money. I have ordered from them in the past, have orders with them now, and will order from them again in the future (most likely). If someone else can come along and offer a better product at a better price, then you can bet your ass I'll buy from them. Free market.

I don't know his opinion on BFL, but I also think Graet has a pretty good idea of what BTC needs to better become widely adopted: more businesses accepting Bitcoin. Bit-pay has done leaps and bounds to bridge that gap and start making that possible. I don't want to go through a stock exchange to purchase a pre-order. I want to go to a company's website, make a purchase, and when it comes time to pay for my product, I buy with Bitcoins. BFL does this. Bitcoinasic.com does this. Any other company that offers this in a streamlined fashion will also get more of my business. Can you imagine of Newegg accepted BTC? FrozenCPU? Paypal? Amazon?

In the public's eye, Bitcoin can't be made famous for scandals, cons, and small time forum trades (as much as I love the Marketplace subforum). If every single major bitcoin company turns into a scam/con, what does that say for the average bitcoin user? What does that say to a potential adopter? Pirate's already done enough to the market, both past, present, and future (note: I never got into that pirate business. Always seemed fishy to me).

K I'm done with my little mental vomit. Take care.

Ah, thank you for this. Felt a little like some political ad where it doesn't have a "paid for by" disclaimer. :)

They sell products that do not exist while pretending that they do.
They promise 1000 MH/s @ 20 W and deliver 832 MHs @ 80 W.
They promise 4-6 weeks and can't deliver a single item within that timeframe in 6+ months.

You see, it has nothing to do with "the man", etc. It has everything to do with their shady business practices.


I say it encourages better business practices.

What addresses do the payments come from?  :D

Look, I am not exactly a BFL cheerleader, but if the SC is an Altera HardCopy then the PCBs will be the same.  Well, technically BFL will have no reason to change the PCB design -- I guess they could change it for fun if they wanted to.

However, the heat pipe doesn't make sense.  They shouldn't need anything remotely close to that if they deliver on the power claims they've made.

I agree. Some folks seem to be "hoping" that BFL does not deliver (perhaps it is fear of obsolescence of their FPGA and GPU investments). I think BFL will deliver (perhaps late, perhaps on time). I see no reason to think otherwise.

anyone know why I can order a single with DWOLLA but can't make a pre-order with DWOLLA?

I think you should bet against that guy who put 50 BTC up for believing in BFL's ability to deliver:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=109357.0
http://betsofbitco.in/item?id=665
If you are right that BFL is a scam, you will make money :)



Why is it deceptive? You too take pre-orders for a product of roughly similar performance at a similar price... ?

If it's a HardCopy it really won't be a SC Single, since the performance won't even be in the same league as the 40GH/s they're advertising. Getting 3.5GH/s out of a bus powered coffee warmer would be a pipe dream.


BFL has claimed the SC products will use the same or less power than the current equivalent FPGA product. If memory serve the power draw of the MR is under 1200W, so 1TH/s@1200W would be 833MH/J.  I'd hardly consider a bet claiming BFL will reach at least 42% of the power efficiency they promised in the first products some time between now and July 2013 to be BFL delivering. It's actually worse than that since the bet states they'll use the DC power input, not the power at the wall. The Minirig SC could draw 3kW at the wall and still satisfy that bet.

Not even, i sold all my hardware months ago. I just don't want to see another big dollar hit like pirates $5m  fiasco, btc's future wont be able to take it.

So it is your assertion (theory) that BFL is actively involved in  fraudulent scheme where they produced a working product only to dupe people into buying a more expensive product on preorder that they will not deliver on?

If you want insurance against a BFL SC 'scam', buy with Paypal and use a properly insured credit card with that account.

Just to clarify, I do not believe that BFL is promoting a scam. There does not seem to be any logic in destroying their company in order to make some short term profits. They may be late, but I have no doubt that they will deliver a product that substantially conforms to the one they promised. I am trying to understand the premise for the assertions that that it is a scam. I would like to understand the reasoning behind it and the evidentiary support for the line of reasoning. A "bad feeling", "it is obviously a scam" or the performance seems "to good to be true" seems to lack the substantive weight to support the nay-sayers.

I am trying to understand, in the absence of any evidence, what is fueling the accusations of fraud. Is it fear, is it worry of obsolescence of existing gear or some other type of resentment towards BFL (perhaps competition desire or negative campaigning by competitors)

Considering the new player and their claims of 60GH/s ASIC offering, then perhaps BFL's claims are not that far off?

Just saying :D

"Avalon" ASIC mining machine, announcement & pre-order start.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=110090.0;all

It was originally quoted (and subsequently removed) that the Avalon would mine at 60GH/s @ 600W. Who knows what the final power draw will be, but it's a far cry from BFL's 40GH/s @ 80W.

Either way, I don't care. GHs/$ is all I care about, and someone finally gave BFL a run for their money!

Yes, who gives a shit about the 600W.  With that kind of power it is really meaningless for those of us with cheap power. 

600W is not exactly trivial... I mean, you need some really cheap power to make 600 watts, 24/7 a trivial matter.

It's an extra ~$50 per month at my house, but I might be able to move the hardware to get free electric. If that were the case, I wouldn't care.

.029 per Kw/h for me. 

Very trivial. 

You gave the answer yourself: those who do NOT have cheap power are the ones who care.

ok time to get inaba's eyes rolling and hopefully the answers requested. lets hope this provokes him into answering.

BFL started advertising in autumn 2011, their website featured finalised product images back at those dates.

Their domain name was created in august 2009 and they published their initial design for the current layout in July 2011
as noted by many things but simply found by looking at the date in the URL of their images:
http://www.butterflylabs.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Mini-Rig-Face.png
July 2011 (2011/07) as just one example.

So having a finalised product over a year ago they have not yet met demand needs and move the goal posts. Strangely the only person to have successfully entered the building of BFL is the only person who's pool the new concepts are using, and who now works for them.

The only publicly released old concept models are FPGA based boards created by another company. BFL do not design microchips, circuitry, Etc. They import existing technologies and package them in shiny boxes.

Their admission that their registered company details are that of a Missouri company of similar name have been investigated and resulted in the information that shows ButterFlyLabs is not BF Labs of Missouri.

BF Labs of Missouri have government contracts to make freezing and sterilising components for the biotech/medical industry. the B stands for Biotech.

ButterFlyLabs initially developed the Monica 'BFL' to relate to the company 'BFG' who like company's such as PNY and Sapphire, etc.. Use boards/technologies created by other companies (ATI for instance).

their legality over payments by calling them 'pre-orders' as oppose to product purchases means they do not have to follow the same laws concerning refunds, as the laws that protect consumers from product purchases.

moving the goal posts with excuses such as: (not verbatim)

*we find it in the best interest of customers not to drip feed customers, allowing people to get ahead of the game but to hold stocks long enough to gather enough products to do a mass shipment so customers are on a level playing field.

plus many more hilarious excuses

They have failed to provide any trademark identifying information that substantiates their existence as a real world company.

their registered address being apartment lofts (1 bedroom, one bathroom) which was found via reverse search of telephone number. and via INABA saying he worked in a bank opposite (nice coincidence).

The BFL trademark is owned by a sheltered/emergency housing company. no patents exist.

I hope this all goes towards your decision to invest in BFL.

now lets wait for INABA to come back with my answers (to questions i gave him weeks ago) about company details, which should be public record and has no reason to hide.

please use Dox information below
http://pastebin.com/kscYYjfg

i write this only to inform users who do not yet know of BFL and to also get inaba to reply, without insults. but with credible answers.

 Pause for insult replies without credible answer's

Nice info :)

Just wanted to state that I am perfectly fine waiting until BFL's Team is comfortable with the reasons they have stated for when they will released product "equipment". EVEN if I may not be part of the initial shipped orders.

Since I have ordered the best integration of ASIC's offered by 2 companies (will be 3 on 9/23) I hope to be one of the first to see whose product we get to test first.
 

Edit: excluding software developers as they should be the first to get working "test" modules.

I honestly just can't debunk complete fabrications or "facts" that are so far removed from reality as to be almost incomprehensible as to how they could even have been related to reality in the first place.

Besides a couple of dates, everything else is basically fabricated or has a tiny grain of truth around the giant nugget of shit and I'm not about to get my hands dirty pulling all that shit apart.   Come back with some facts or grab hold of the new fad called reality and maybe we can talk.

Perhaps some marketing type shots of the BFL production and office operations would go far to debunk the conspiracy theorists. I think people tend to create their own, "usually dire" reality in the absence of obvious transparency. My theory is that BFL seems like a black box to most; anything you could do to shed light into that box would help

Some suggestions:

There is no standard "about us" page on your site
Your media tab redirects people to a Google search for your company name
There is no photos of your office, building or people
Your News tab has only one item from Nov of 2011

your drivers page lists:
Drivers:
Computational research
Medical imaging
Packet integrity verification
Generic fingerprinting engine

But in reality they are redirects to the same download page the only active downloads are the Bitcoin gear if these are placeholders then they should be removed as they seem like fluff put in to give the appearance of diversification

I hope you fill your  - Communications Director - North America position - I think you would greatly profit from a cohesive branding and marketing plan that humanizes your product and helps instill consumer confidence in your brand

I think a lot can be done from a marketing perspective and your website that would not endanger any intellectual property

There's been plenty of people to visit the BFL offices, so it's not like it's the freaking Bat Cave or something... although I wish it were.  It would be awesome to work in the Bat Cave.  I hear Batman can be kind of a dick though.

Hi Inaba, quick question if a customer pre order a unit and the unit is complete and ready to ship out can the customer just come to the office and pick up the unit instead of waiting 4-6 week.   

http://www.butterflylabs.com/mini-rig-production-line/
http://www.butterflylabs.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/IMG_3122.jpg

those are good but they need to more prominent.  My point is there is a great opportunity to easily rework portions of the site to facilitate better brand and marketing information: for example I just added to my post above

The drivers page lists:
Drivers:
Computational research
Medical imaging
Packet integrity verification
Generic fingerprinting engine

But in reality they are redirects to the same download page. The only active downloads are the Bitcoin gear if these others are placeholders then they should be removed as they seem like fluff put in to give the appearance of diversification.

There are many little things of that sort, which could be easily misinterpreted or raise questions of consumer confidence. For example the pictures you linked are from a production update on the front page that is different from the production update under the news tab. The one in the news tab is from Nov 2011 where the rather modest link on the front page is more recent shouldn't that link be under news also. A minor point but it is a myriad of minor points that I feel are contributing to the questions.

I am betting on BFL and I think they will deliver but there are things that could be done (easy things) that would help bolster community confidence.

+1

Uh, no, because the bet as written lets BFL under-deliver by a factor of four (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=109357.msg1190750#msg1190750) and be six months late and still win the bet.  WTF?

I agree that BFL could do more but one should consider that they are a SMALL business.  I have seen firms with 30+ people who are working like crazy do less then BFL.  At the end of the day here are the really important things we all need, do they have the product they advertised and can they deliver.  That's it and I am sure that in March when a large number of orders are long gone and a steady pace is set they will put more effort into their website and other matters.  From what I can see these guys have allot of ideas and not enough support to get it done as fast as we would like.  I know if I got a ton of orders like they did or as we as many as we tracking here on the forum I would not even have time to chat about how info is not flowing or the site is not updated. 

cheers for the lack of public information concerning the validity that Butterfly labs is a legitimate business, and for the waffle to avoid sounding like your just insulting..

so back to the main question.. public records??
trademarks
incorporation details
state registry details

you know the public stuff.. I am not asking for the intellectual property stuff that should remain a secret..
you can keep the KFC colonels secret recipe a secret.. :D
just where's the public record stuff..

you know the stuff that should be in your employment contract so you can show the IRS when you pay taxes on the income BFL give you.

its not that hard to muster up...

best bet is to just own up that BFL in simple terms is a 'living room' industry. you do not design the microchips, you use ready made technology(FPGA) designed by third parties and slap your brand name on it.
but i dont require the intricate details of your manufacturing secrets.

so lets just stick with the public record stuff

trademarks
incorporation details
state registry details - tax - permits etc etc etc

<wait for more waffle with no public information provided>

at least they have now an Facebook site...  ;)

https://www.facebook.com/ButterflyLabs (https://www.facebook.com/ButterflyLabs)

No. It's written in their FAQ that their offices/factory is not set up to allow order pick up.

cough.. "There's been plenty of people to visit the BFL offices" cough

lol.
not really hard to just ask people for their order numbers and hand them a black box. saves on shipping costs. but then everyone will know they are in a loft apartments building..

only a few would actually turn up to collect in person as travelling would cost them. so its not like it would be a major issue having a hand full of people ringing the buzzer at the entrance.

There you have it people: eldentyrell publicly admits that 350 Mhash/Joule or more is probable!

(On a side note: why did you ignore my reply https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=109357.msg1197436#msg1197436 ?)

Careful.  Common sense around here is frowned upon.  People invested big coin with somebody named "Pirate" (you deserved to be scammed).  At least "Butterfly Labs" gives you a nice warm fuzzy feeling...

Why is it that the majority of the people bashing BFL have either low post counts, recent join dates, or both? Common sense would dictate that there's a correlation.

Why do you think you are entitled to me providing that information for you? Its not my job to handhold you through life and spoon feed everything to you. You have fabricated everything you have said (as in you have no evidence or proof for any of your wild claims),so why is it my job to educate the ignorant that have no stake in the  business?

I would be more inclined to help you out if you didn't just make stuff up and outright lie. But as it is, you have no credible sources to bash bfl, and so you have to fabricate things. Meh

I think at least the part about BF Labs being registered in Wyoming and being called a Biotech company is kind of strange.  That claim was made by the BFL account (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=53530.msg650163#msg650163), but I don't see anything online about a "Biotech Frontiers Lab" other than this conspiracy theory.  It seems like the whole biotech thing is just an incorrect classification.  If there was another BF/Biotech Frontier Labs that was a legitimate company, you'd think they'd be pretty easy to find.

you're here criticizing the lack of public information about a company producing devices that enable us to to keep our finances anonymous...

<waits for public company record info>

just thought id add this image for laughs that show a hampster producing more hashing power. while we all wait for public record information.

http://i49.tinypic.com/1ffnvd.jpg

and instead of replying with lame excuses why you decline to give out information, try atleast reading the evidence as you inaba were one of the ones that actually helped provide it before u went over to the dark side. check out your own posts from november 2011..

provided link in the postbin of dox http://pastebin.com/kscYYjfg

when requesting hundreds of dollars with no guaranteed timescale i think providing information should be your first thought. unless like pirate your afraid of court case summons when it goes bad.

if you got nothing to hide, hide nothing

<waits for public company record info>

Your first post was on the 7th of September (seen below)  - I am curious who you are and what your goals are. You are obviously familiar with the BTC community and have knowledge of current events. I am suspect of your motives and what vested interests you have in pursuing BFL information. My first impression is that you are a long standing member who acquired a new alias in order to serve some personal agenda. It seems unlikely that you are so active and knowledgeable in the BTC community but only now created a forum account to discuss your concerns. Perhaps you are a competitor that seeks to discredit BFL in an attempt to catch some business or perhaps you some other yet unnamed agenda, which will no doubt surface at some point

=============================
hi guys just making my first post.

im known on the BTC-E website. i wont be making up any companies or begging for cash just making comments using info i find from other sources.

secondly the post above me by bitcoin.me

don shrents IS an alias of pirates. but his real and birth name is trendon shavers. many long established users here have got a full background of trendon. including a real life fraud that went to court last year where he used this alias as well as his real name.

he used his fake name (don) to defraud people.

there is no birth certificate/ marriage certificate in the name don shrents so its just a nickname.

trendon is the legal documented name of pirate
===================================

google has the answers
http://www.lookupbook.com/profile/healthcare-biotech/wy/casper/bf-labs-inc (http://www.lookupbook.com/profile/healthcare-biotech/wy/casper/bf-labs-inc)

they defaulted last year. which made me laugh. that butterfly claimed to be a bankrupt biotech company. but then later a photographer grabbed the listing.

https://wyobiz.wy.gov/Business/FilingSearch.aspx (https://wyobiz.wy.gov/Business/FilingSearch.aspx) type in file number  2011-000606261

so good luck Butterfly labs seeking legitimacy using that wyoming listing

on another note, yes i have been involved in the community for a while. i do not personally own a company related anything to do with bitcoin. nor do i work for one. my intention has nothing to do with competitive behaviour. it does have to do with requesting a entity that asks for hundreds of dollars to at least back up what they publicise and gain some actual credit.

multiple declines of providing public record information is not what any company big or small would do if they were honest. especially asking for hundreds of dollars up front with promises and guarantee's not given.

why my interest. because maybe i amongst others do have money invested and so being ignored is not what id call good business practice.

atleast admit your not actually incorperated or trademarked, that your just a 'living room' industry. even that would atleast be honest and gain BFL some credibility.

lies and ignorance is not what a company selling hundreds of dollars of equipment should have as their standard business practice.

<waits for lack of public record, lack of any information, waits to read next waffle to avoid answer>

You say they defaulted last year, but the Wyoming Secretary of State website shows them having filed an annual report just about two weeks ago.  It also clearly shows the only listed executive of the company as Chris Vleisides at 2507 Jefferson St. in KC, MO.  He is apparently a professional photographer as you said (here's his website (http://vpsphoto.blogspot.com/)).  I don't think it's a just a coincidence that Butterfly Labs and Chris Vleisides are both in Kansas City, Missouri.

Anyway, after doing some further digging, it turns out that there is another Mr. Vleisides who has a more interesting past.  His name is "Sonny" Chris Vleisides.  Sonny was apparently convicted of mail fraud relating to a ponzi scheme and is currently on probation: http://ca.findacase.com/research/wfrmDocViewer.aspx/xq/fac.20100915_0004129.CCA.htm/qx

https://postalinspectors.uspis.gov/radDocs/PressRoom/nr110114.htm

He's still on probation for another year.  Anyway, Chris Vleisides the photographer was posting photos while Sonny Chris Vleisides was imprisoned.  It also appears that Sonny Chris is younger than Chris (a son or brother?).  I doubt they're the same person, but it's possible that they're related.  Butterfly Labs has definitely been producing legitimate hardware, so if they are a scam, it's a very long play and not a ponzi scheme.  At the very least, at this point it would be nice to have some answers.

 :o You know, I have my doubts about BFL's claimed specs, but I honestly thought that this was all just a bunch of hyperactive doxxing. BFL has scummy business practices, but I wasn't expecting anything like his to turn up. Time to pull out the air popper.

BF labs (the biotech company) existed at the time of first investigating butterfly labs in december 2011.. the file number showed they defaulted.. (again during in investigations in 2011)

but in 2012 chris Vleisides the photographer bought up that listing for $50.

the rest of the info about you finding chris's photography website is correct. i have not dug into any criminal past's of him or relatives. but the point is that butterfly is not a biotech company of 2011 or the photography company of 2012 which butterfly labs previously pretended to be in many threads over the last 10 months

i am currently contactng chris to varify any knowledge he has concerning butterfly labs. to either validate butterflies claims. maybe where chris's day job is a photographer and does some work for butterfly on the side. who knows.. we wil find out.
if Chris replies that he has no associations with butterfly. then butterfly will need to back up their claims of being an honourable, cryptography processor manufacturer. (yep that's a claim they make the microchips) instead of being a 'living room' FPGA re branding business.

i amongst others would trust them more if they atleast started off by saying that instead of this incorporation, trademarks, intellectual property, patent waffle which holds no water at all on public record.

unless they provide such public records

hope my screenshot of inaba's hampster miner broke the seriousness of this thread with a bit oh humor while i wait for inaba's next waffle of ASCII characters to avoid providing answers.

It looks like the connection to Sonny Vleisides may be more than a coincidence of having a very similar name.  Sonny Vleisides apparently also runs in libertarian circles (see the quote from him here (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/no-taxes-or-bureaucracy-in-planned-libertarian-paradise-1588142.html)), so it seems likely that's how he found out about Bitcoin.  Sonny was apparently living in Costa Rica during the time the lottery ponzi scheme was going on (though he was arrested in Italy), so I would bet it's the same guy.  As the people on Law & Order would say, it's all circumstantial.  However, it looks very much like Butterfly Labs is, in fact, run by or connected to Sonny Chris Vleisides.  This also matches up with the libertarian-sounding stuff on BFL's website in the FAQ section:

Good read :) Keep it up this is better than TV

That's all I've got, but this stuff I found about Sonny Vleisides is very, very concerning to me.  I PM'd Inaba to see if he can clarify the situation, but in the meantime I wouldn't park any money or Bitcoins into BFL preorders if I were you, and I say this as someone who already has a preorder with them.

chris V photography is indeed in kansas MO (so is butterfly labs)
his photography business address
2507 Jefferson St, Kansas City, MO 64108

less then 1.5k from butterfly labs chambers loft apartment complex is.

plausable reason - not confirmed, so just theory..
i think when the mess up with admitting they were the defaulted biotech company. they quickly got an agent in wyoming (nancy) to buy up the name.

just a shame investigations begun before the name buy up.. kinda hard to hide their original slip up.

ill wait for INABA and chris's replies..

while we wait. another of miner screen shot for humour
http://i47.tinypic.com/2rym2kl.jpg
this time its mining bicycles.

i post these humour images to show its not that hard to show one thing but mean another. after all butterfly labs could be rebranding icurus (just an example not a suggestion) FPGA boards, making a mining farm and then saying their whole farm is actually one single ASIC.

atleast some honesty when requesting hundreds of dollars should occur..

lets just wait for the waffles of paragraphs avoiding answers.

I hope Inaba can put this to rest. He came from the outside and I'm sure he's seen enough to know what's going on by now.

but sworn to secrecy for a 20% cut of the pool. :D (not serious)

popcorn

*crickets*

Sonny Vleisides is associated with BFL and it's the same Sonny listed in the case documents.  He was involved in off shore gaming in the capacity of selling and providing software engineering to companies that did the actual offshore gaming (there is even a US patent application for the process). The industry came under attack (as we all remember) around that time, and Mr. Vleisides was caught up in the process as well as a good portion of the industry based in Costa Rica.

Although this may be cause for concern to some, the fact is that we're a robust company with 22 employees.  One of them has a colorful background in offshore libertarianism.  If I thought there was even the possibility of something unsavory going on within BFL, you can rest assured I would a) not be part of it and b) would let everyone know it.

The reality is, we are legitimate, we have released revolutionary products and we are going to release more revolutionary products.  I was made aware of this back story prior to my employment and I evaluated it and concluded that it was immaterial to the business at hand and thus joined BFL.  There was nothing hidden from me and Sonny has always answered questions and been completely open about his past, but I think we can all agree that it's not something you just announce to the world.

Eek, no wonder this was a big secret.

Ok. Now it's out. Does this mean my Jalapeno won't do 3.5 gh/s?

Well he did get 14 months in prison for mail fraud. Yours is in the mail ;).

Now i want a BFL product

I want your sig to be shorter

Thanks for replying. You've been around for quite a while and from what I've seen you post, I'd feel much more confident investing in BFL hardware now than if you hadn't started working there. I hope you'll continue to post updates, however trivial they might seem.

Would the business really have suffered if this wasn't kept a secret from the beginning? I guess this is the reason for all the names being secrets across the company?

If you deliver products, like you have, I see no reason to not buy your gear!
Everyone has done something bad in their lives. Maybe not prison worthy, but it's not the end of the world.

I guess that's good to know.  It would have been better if Sonny was upfront about his history in the first place, but I can understand that's not something anyone would be proud to be associated with.  Since you are vouching for him, I won't be trying to cancel my preorder.  Sonny would have to be incredibly stupid to try and pull a scam while on probation or whatever status he has right now anyway.  The details of his involvement aren't entirely clear from what I found, but it doesn't look like he was the main guy behind the scam.  It still makes me nervous, but at least we know exactly who we're dealing with.

Offshore gaming and libertarianism? I would love to hear more about this, since the news report from the US Postal Inspector sounds a little more like a Ponzi than Sonny and his group providing access to foreign lotteries or running a poker room.

Also, could BFL comment on the following condition of Sonny's probation? (http://ca.findacase.com/research/wfrmDocViewer.aspx/xq/fac.20100915_0004129.CCA.htm/qx)

Has Sonny turned over any client lists or business records pertaining to BFL to his probation officer?

+1

Gets worse...This really sucks...

I hope there is a way for BFL to continue as per normal.
You need to address this quickly I think.

I'm a bad, bad boy

I think the key here is "until all financial obligations imposed by the Court have been satisfied in full".  If he paid all of the fines owed, this restriction would be lifted.

Inaba, thanks for the explanation. My research has pointed more to involvement with a ponzi than online gambling software, which is concerning to me.  Can you provide any public sources to support your statement?

Wow.. I think that is the first real answer BFL has given the masses ... :)



I would like some hash too

Is it just me, or could that have been said by an apple employee? ;D

Why are there so many fucking shady ass people involved in Bitcoin?  Makes me really re-consider what I should do with my BFL ASIC Single pre-order I made months ago.  I was really hoping BFL was a clean company struggling with the demands of high demand, but it seems its a company shrouded in mystery, ran by scammers who deal with illegal gambling software and Ponzi schemes.

Inaba, I really feel for you.  What BFL needs is a COO that knows how to spin the media.  After reading your posts, you certainly don't present yourself as someone representing a company that does millions of dollars in revenue.

I guess they are a little behind schedule but will deliver end of 2012...  ::)

I hope when they grab and run at the end of 2012, they'll call it "Operation ASICS", you know, like the shoes.

Right, because what you want is someone who will lie to you and tell you comforting tales so you aren't so scared, right? 

I guess I can do that if you want... but I'd rather be honest and upfront with everyone instead of spinning the story and being generally a dirt bag like most large corporations.  But hey, if you want lies and spin instead of truth, I can provide that, too.

Then why didn't you come forward with all this information before?  It took a long time and alot of snopping from the forum members for it to come out.  Thats not exactly being upfront.

So, as a consumer, and a customer of BFL I would like to know:
1. Are you really a C Corporation?
2. If you are a C Corp, which state do you file in?
3. Are you annual reports public, like most C Corps?

With these questions, I can find out pretty much all I need to know as a consumer about your company using the public resources.  This is what good and valid companies do.

EDIT: Also, feel free to go back and view my past posts.  I have usually defended BFL on all fronts, but in light of all this new information coming out, I have really re-thought my opinions.  When you were made COO of BFL, you should represent the company.  Going on tyraids is not befitting of a million dollar revenue generating company.  Not only does it look bad on you, it looks horrible on the company for choosing you as their COO. 

Your actions really reaks of Jim Mackeys actions when he was running Whole Foods:   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whole_Foods_Market#SEC_investigation

Inaba,

I don't presume to speak for the masses, but I have suspicion that many may share my views. It is vitally important for a consumer to have confidence in a company when investing, what is usually scarce, resource (E.G their money) into that company. I have thousands of dollars sitting in your accounts on the promise of delivery of ASIC equipment starting in October.

It really does not matter if the company is in a loft, if the components are manufactured or assembled by you or if the owner has had issues in the past. The only thing that truly matters is that you deliver on your promises. I have several shelves filled with BFL singles and they perform as  advertised, and that is all I really ask for as a consumer. For me, going forward, your company will be judged solely on how well it keeps it promises and how well it communicates and keeps its investors informed.

I see myself as an investor in your company and I am gambling on that you will deliver. I am betting thousands of dollars that you will. If you deliver, I don't care about the past and it is not for me to judge.

The only suggestion I can make is to continue to communicate with your investors and keep them apprised of when the gear will actually ship and any delays that you anticipate. I think given some of the concerns, either real or imagined, it is vitally important that you manage our expectations as you work towards and subsequently get ASIC product out the door.

Thanks

David

What do you mean, "too"?  It's what you've been doing before day one at BFL.

Bitcoinland is waking up to the fact that we're not in Eden anymore.  Why don't you just open up and disclose any encumbrances that are material (pertaining to a civil suit in the US jurisdiction of your choosing) so people don't have to dig things up on their own?

Honesty is not just telling the truth when you are presented with irrefutable evidence.

Dog, is that you?

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I am not dog.
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I will tell you why we didn't "come forward with all this information before" when you can tell me why you think it's relevant?  Please explain how the past affects the products you've already received (because you have received products right?  I mean, you're not here just complaining and you aren't even a customer, correct?) and how it will affect the products in the future.  If you can explain that, then I will explain why the information wasn't disclosed before.  Otherwise, it has absolutely no bearing on whether or not BFL has produced and shipped products in the past or in the future, does it?


Our corporation, as has been said countless times before, is currently registered in Wyoming.  All the information is there, has been there, and will likely continue to be there.


So in light of this "new information coming out" how does it make your BFL Singles or Minirigs fail to perform?  I'm just curious.  I assume you mean tirade, not "tyraid" - but what tirade are you referring to?   I don't see any tirades, and I'm certainly not speaking as BFL at the moment.


@davidspitzer

You are exactly right.  It matters what we are doing now and in the future.  We have delivered in the past and we will deliver in the future.  I have been open and up front with delivery time and dates as I know them currently.  We are still on target for Late October, early November.  Given the production times, I would venture to say it will be closer to the latter on actual shipping dates for the units, since we want to ship them out en mass as opposed to ones and twos.  Since this is a new product, with all new components, we are having to change our production facilities to accommodate it.  Contrary to Franky's fabrications, we do not, have not and are not rebranding anyone elses boards and selling them.  It's all created by us, for us specifically.  It's interesting he makes those accusations but is completely unable to supply the original source of these supposedly rebranded boards.  I wonder why that is?

Anyway, we haven't run into any major show stoppers as of yet, so things are good. 

I think so too, too much baseless BFL hate ITT

1) It's relevant when taking pre-orders.  Had this information been known before Singles shipped, what do you think the investment would have been?  (I.e., that's fraud.)  Had this been known up to the point where BFL had a reasonable percentage of space parts on hand, the FTC would happily have gotten involved and shut down the company.  It has nothing to do with how it affects the products received afterward, because it's still nearly indistinguishable from a Ponzi. (I *love* that this is a valid argument on this forum.)  In fact, it's a "ponzi" run by a convicted felon, not just someone who was charged with passing bad checks.  Do you see how this looks?  Every single offering that is of more value than the previous just increases the correlation with "a classic ponzi," even if it's natural company growth.  BFL has created suspicion and doubt through its failures to meet its promises.  This information makes it seem as if it was part of a scheme rather than through incompetence or inexperience.

2) Is Inaba the "I only speak for myself so I can be an ass to customers" identity or do you actually speak for the company in this persona?  What does BFL_Josh have to say about this?

I like BFL's products once they get dialed in (even if they're ghetto right now), but its customer relations are really, really bad.  They've only gotten more adversarial since you joined the company.

So are you going to post pictures of the products soon or do we have to wait until people receive them and post amateur photos here?

For customer who paid a lot of bucks in front, there is NO need to explain anything!!!

Even potential customers, who are thinking in preordering a product from BFL, or better said investing in BFL, have a right to know such important things.

@Inaba.... Why you are writing here as Inaba and not as BFL_Josh?

I am not a lawyer yet, but I am awaiting the results of the CA bar after completing four long years of law school just recently. Below is my personal opinion and should not be construed as legal advice in any way:

There is no fraud if BFL delivers. Past crimes are not probative of proving the fact of the matter in a present case. Evidence of past moral turpitude crimes are admissible to show a propensity for dishonesty for impeachment purposes but cannot be used by itself to prove a present tort or crime.
The elements of fraud are:

1.   A false representation of a matter of fact—whether by words or by conduct
2.   by false or misleading assertions,
3.   or by concealment of what should have been disclosed—
4.   that deceives and is intended to deceive another so that the individual will act upon it to her or his legal injury

The important element is the last one. In essence there needs to be harm. If BFL delivers the products then there can be no fraud, even if the owner purports himself to be the King of Great Britain. I do not think throwing out terms like fraud is constructive or fair until BFL has had an opportunity to deliver.  If they fail to deliver or the product is materially non-conforming, and BFL knew or had reason to know that such was the case when they sought to sell their product, then and only then would your accusation be Justiciable in a court of law.

Is it worrisome that the owner of BFL has a sorted past? For myself it does add a bit of concern over my investment, but I will reserve judgment until such time as it is clear they have delivered or defaulted in some way.

As an aside, My BFL units have now paid themselfs off.

From now on, everything they make (less electric bill) is profit :D

That's good to hear.  Keep us updated :)

THIS  ^^ A thousand times this ^^

Had I known the shady dealings before sending you hundreds of my BTC (thousands of dollars) I would NOT have pre-ordered with BFL.  I guess as a customer, I just need to know SOMETHING is being done at the factory level.  The website sure as hell gives no information, in fact it makes me even more suspicious when I browse over it.  The only communication we as a Bitcoin community get from BFL is via smart mouthed replies from Inaba or BFL_Josh.  You are doing yourself and BFL a huge disservice by being an ass to everyone...even your competitors, and non-customers ("haters").  When you become a COO of a company, you are a figurehead for said company.  EVERYTHING you do, both in your public "business" life and your personal life is a direct reflection of the company.  So, when you login as "Inaba" and post such brash messages, we the public still see's this as "The guy thats running BFL", regardless if your nick says Inaba or BFL_Josh.  Its in yours and BFL's best interests to speak as if you are ALWAYS representing the company.

I truly think BFL wants to do business the right way, Honestly I do.  They have delivered good products in the past, but the suffer from very poor management and leadership which a new company struggling with such huge demand needs so desperately to keep on track.  When you joined BFL, I was hoping you might help steer things differently, but instead you join the chorus of underbellies and continue to use harsh tones with everyone on the forums.  I am a little disappointed, and I hoped that BFL would get things right, and deliver when they first said (October), but that has now slipped, just like in the first release.  Things are not looking good, and that sucks because I want to see BFL succeed.

What's fraud?  That we shipped orders for FPGAs late or that we have taken preorders for the ASICs?  In either case, I don't see where there is any fraud or what the FTC has to do with it, please explain.

I'm thinking you might not know what a Ponzi is, so I would kindly suggest that you read up on what a Ponzi is.  I'm not sure it's even possible to have a Ponzi scheme when products are delivered... it may be possible, but it seems unlikely.  In either case, even if it were possible to have a Ponzi of Products, can you describe how BFL would fit into such a convoluted picture?  


What customers have I been an ass to?  I'm sorry if you feel I've been an ass to you, but you have been nothing but hostile to me from day one.  Are you even a customer? If not, why do you have an expectation of civility when you spew out nothing but hate and negativity?  For that matter, even if you are a customer, why do you have that expectation?  The customer is not always right.  I very sincerely apologize to those that I offend in my comments, but the bottom line is I don't suffer idiots lightly.  If you are being an idiot and I call you out on it you need to step back and assess why you just got verbally thrashed.  If you approach me with civility and facts, instead of incivility and fabrications, you will get the same courtesy in return.  If you are going to attack the legitimacy of BFL, please have your facts straight and have a logical, cogent argument to make.  

As for Inaba vs BFL_Josh, someone asked me (Inaba) for an explanation and I provided it last night to quell any fears that we are trying to hide something that materially affects BFL.  If you want a formal statement from BFL_Josh, that can be provided, but you won't get the same amount of discourse (positive or negative) there.  I've always known this would become a minor flashpoint for the haters at some point and I want to make sure that those irrational individuals like Reeses et al comments are addressed and  handled as quickly and as completely as possible, since they like to stir up trouble (I'm not singling you out solely Reeses, you have lots of company) just for the sake of being asses.  

CubedRoot: Let me know what your order number(s) are and I will get you a full refund today, and you won't have to worry anymore.  In the future, if you want me to be more "corporate like," that too can be arranged.  In fact, you can have it now:  There's an "ignore" button on the side.  That is exactly what you'll get if you want corporate as opposed to community.  Please provide an example of a COO that posts on a community forum regularly and interacts with the people around them; one that is actually in touch with the product they are selling.  As a side note, what "brash messages" are you referring to, exactly?  First it was tirades now it's "brash messages" but you have yet to point out which ones you consider as such.

If it will make everyone feel better I took a picture of a Jalapeño I found at goodwill last night

https://i.imgur.com/LE3ES.jpg

I just kinda wish I had the coin to buy his pre-orders off him, since he's looking to get rid of them... :)

That didn't make me feel better. Now I just feel like teaching you how to resize pictures, but i won't.

I'm sorry Bfl, but how are international refunds processed? Wires?
Being in nz I had no luck attempting to sell my low order number.

Regardless of your ad hominem attack on me, the legal burden for fraud was correctly stated and yet unmet by BFL. Angry attacks serve no purpose other then as a cathartic release for your anger. Only time will tell what is true and what is hyperbole here. My hope and believe is that they will deliver. I could be wrong, as there is no sure way know until events fully unfurl.

Uh oh, dictionary fight!

I could spend hours dissecting the last posters logic and legal failures, but there is no profit in it. I always consider myself a winner of any argument that results in a personal attack against me rather then a thoughtful reply based on evidence and reason

He used his highly qualified wife too. Pretty unfair. :(

Whoa.....did this just turn into a dick measuring contest???

Alright boys, belly on up......

Yea sorry I did that all from iPhone. So I was computationally challenged

Ok , this has gone too far , I was watching from the side but I cannot take it anymore, so I will state some simple facts I gained while working with BFL as a customer.

I've talked with them and told them about my interest in buying their products.
I wired them the money.
They told me the delivery time.
I waited
They announced the upgrade so I cancelled my import planning to Turkey, and asked them to deliver units to a datacenter in US
Paid for the upgrade
They delivered the units
Had a problem with one of my units they solved it on time and without a headache
Their units are hashing perfectly and exactly as I'm told before buying them.

So far all my business dealings with BFL is very good and I don't believe it will change in the future.

I have a 180k investment with them as units and I feel perfectly calm, happy

I met Inaba(BFL_Josh) before he is affiliated with BFL , he might be a bit direct to idiots but he is a good guy and he is right.

I visited BFL offices, I've met with the guys, they were working their asses off to deliver one more unit one day early, I saw them jumping in the car and speeding to the post office just to deliver 1-2 more units that day. As far as I could see they were doing everything humanly possible to deliver their products as early as they can. They are working till early hours of the morning and on sundays.

So as a customer I trust them, I am sure sure that any late delivery on their part of any unit/product is not intentional , if you are making a new product in a totally new market, delays happen,  I am producing electronics for years I know that engineers fell ill, molds brake, crucial parts sometimes cannot be found and shipped to the manufactury, every possible shit that can happen happens.

So to simplify things I will be direct :)

- This post itself is stupid there wasnt any announcement from BFL about a jalapeno picture
- Every GPU miner hates BFL because their GPU's will become crap in a few months
- Everybody who is late to believe them or buy their products hate them and smear campaign never ends , reason is simple, jealosy :)
- Inaba is trying to help you guys and become a bridge between you and BFL
- BFL delivered my my units and they are working as promised
- BFL will deliver ASICS and they will also function as promised
- I will mine bitcoins, you will still be talking trash
- I am sure even if I shove an BFL SC up their rectum, some idiots still wont believe BFL asics are real.



congratulations reeses btw for my first use of the ignore button.

It was not my intention to sound as if I was bragging. I wanted to be clear that I am not licensed to give legal advice while at the same time giving a basis for my opinion

wow, is that the Single??  :o

So, I have been trying to find the SEC Filing in EDGAR for BFL.  I cannot find any reportings.  I did find this;

https://wyobiz.wy.gov/Business/FilingDetails.aspx?eFNum=149144214231010201167112190255028042109060235081


Which shows they have filed a 2012 Annual Report.

You can search EDGAR here: http://www.sec.gov/edgar/searchedgar/webusers.htm      But, I am not sure how large a company must be in order to file with the SEC, but I thought all Corps had to file.

so from my point of view it was bad (really nothing) communication from BFL that their business modell is not "pre-orders" like but "funding" like. this was not clear communicated and that will lead in disharmony with their customers investors...

 I make no assumptions about you and your knowledge and abilities as I have no knowledge of you. Your repeated attacks and insinuations against me are discourteous and immature

If it will help though it took four years because I worked full time while I went to school. I am the sole support for my family so it was the only option open for me in order to realize my dream of completing law school

After almost a year, they still have not completed their DBA filings in Missouri:
https://www.sos.mo.gov/BusinessEntity/soskb/SearchResults.asp?FormName=CorpNameSearch&Words=Starting&SearchStr=Butterfly+Labs&SearchType=Search

I got that information from this thread:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=53530.msg650205#msg650205

I would REALLY like to find out the status of BFL as a legitimate business.  DBA filings should not take over a year (should they?).

SHIT JUST GOT REAL!! You gonna take that?! I can't wait to see what he 1-ups you with. :P

He just threatened you David! You gonna take that?!

OMG this is better than any TV.

LOL ;)

Quite right. It's got to be a pre-order scam if anything. If I recall correctly, there's an old scammer trick where they deliver a bunch of relatively low-valued orders in order to prove honesty, then take in a much larger amount of money on the back of their established reputation and run off with the proceeds. If you remember Pirate, his MO for building trust was fairly similar.

Since i have almost no intelligence factor, i would like to know what the hell are they talking about.

until recently about a month ago i made a purchase and had a couple questions I was returned with a call from jody. She answered some questions and then sent me a paypal bil for a second SC unit. The service seemed good. Now its time to sitback and wait. i have no law degree and im not married to a federal judge. if you have doubts dont order, or order and take the time and be patient. It is documented on the internet they do produce a product, and who's to say they arent busting thier ass right now trying to get units together, but no one can say they arent either cause we just dont know. I dont care what one side or the other believes all we can go on is what we know either from personal dealings by past consumers unfortunantly good or bad, and what we can read unfortunantly good and bad. We are all fellow miners here I would hope, some situations need a little faith, im willing to give it. I was a screw up once, I was givin a second chance now I own my own company. someone gave me a little faith and it turned into more, How about we try that in this situation. Im tired of seeing school ground bickering are we 15 again?


But hey that's my intellectually challanged two cents.

What was your screw up?

I love how you've turned this thread into a contest of who is the lawyeriest non-lawyer.  Nobody cares.  If you really cared and thought BFL was fraudulent, you should have just called the FBI to report them instead of trash talking people on the internet.  Did your wife not tell you that?

first picture of Jally:

http://www.the-foodist.com/wp-content/gallery/chili/jalapeno.jpg

Could that be due to the trustworthiness which BFL, and their employee's, have demonstrated to date?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=97269.msg1181484#msg1181484

INABA if ASICS are coming then treat this as a learning experience for any future ASICS BFL 'might' create.

EG if a ASICS v2 come out.

1) DO NOT !! take pre-orders until designs are finished and you have started production.
2) DO work out how much product can be made in a month ready for shipping and only make pre-orders for that months supply (maybe even a 1 per person to even the playing field and give a fair advantage to the masses)

offering pre-orders before product is finalised should not happen.
offering pre-orders before testing of product should not happen.
offering pre-orders before known production volume should not happen.
offering pre-orders before offering guaranteed delivery date should not happen (with exception to the delivery company being the cause)

so next new product you produce. make it, test it. realise you have 1000 units ready to ship at the end of the month. then offer pre orders for 1000 units with guaranteed delivery at month end (with exception to the delivery company being the cause of delays)

then you wont have so many people trying to figure out why all the short failings have been caused. hundreds of dollars in payments with no guarantee's should not be replied by the company rep's with (not verbatim)
'why do you need to know'
followed by
'your comments are fabrication, come back with facts'

if you refuse to supply facts, then don't reply disliking so called 'fabrications'.

be a COO for goodness sake not a minimum wage customer service rep.

i do hope any future projects  will use those 2 noted idea's concerning pre orders.

don't over promise and under commit. or you will have many unsatisfied customers and potential customers.

and on a side note. Why did butterfly labs website not allow refunds until January? why January specifically (separate question)?
to be able to refund a pre-order you have to allow refunds before the shipping date to ensure product is not shipped after customer gets their refund. hence the word pre as oppose to post order refund.

this post will be copied to your message box so it wont be ignored.

<wait for reply on the thread>
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=109349.msg1205022#msg1205022 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=109349.msg1205022#msg1205022)

I made no assumptions.  I said if you really cared and thought BFL was fraudulent, you should have called the FBI.  I guess you're not lawyerly enough to notice my nuanced wording, but you aren't a lawyer and haven't gone to law school so I'll let it pass.  You have now answered that you don't, in fact, care.  So, you're really just trolling.  I think it's pretty irresponsible of someone to claim that they believe fraud to be occurring and not report it.

I searched by last name: VLEISIDES

https://www.sos.mo.gov/BusinessEntity/soskb/Corp.asp?1657874

I didn't find anything on BF Labs Inc in MO either.

It's very easy to call someones parole officer and advise them of concerns.
I'm not sure if they are give you any information back at all, only receive details from you.

Reeses, you may want to check your wife's credentials if you are actually asking her these questions and those are the answers she's giving you... if so, she's a piss poor lawyer and whatever law firm she's with got suckered.  Bet she's a great huckster though to have you fooled enough to make a constant ass out of yourself on the forums.

Right.

I've shown where you are not always "honest and upfront".

Care to show where I lied, as you asserted?

Or, issue an apology?

Well, dangnabbit. If BFL turns out to be another scam I'm going to cry.


Yep. Thankfully. Documented on the internet. ;D


Unfortunately, as you may notice, it's also documented on the internet that key BFL personnel, in fact, their chief executive, who was hitherto anonymous,
has been found guilty of, extradited, and spent years in jail for fraud.

This would make me a more than a little worried if I had preordered an ASIC from BFL.

You're all free to suspend judgement and sing "We just don't know", but hope makes a lousy defense when dealing in Bitcoin.

Amen to that.

My only problem with that pic is that it looks like a new shoe.

A shoe needs a lot more age before it becomes as smelly as BFL's reputation.  :)

Yeah, I realize now I should have used a shoe with velcro. You know, like what's used in the FPGA minirigs to professionally mount stuff to the case.

https://i.imgur.com/Yv4e6.jpg

She works for the government according to Reeses.  They don't tend to attract the top of the class since it's impossible to make seven figures as one can in biglaw and white shoe firms.

I believe we have now officially derailed this thread to the point of no return

I am totally proud of my thread.

Dang, you're right... no wonder she's a huckster.  Couldn't find a job with a real law firm so had to scuttle off to the gub'mint to get a job for that expensive piece of toilet paper!  They are always good for the welfare handouts, be it money or jobs.

What do you earn BFL Josh?

Probably about tree fiddy a ______.

True dat

http://motivateurself.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/i-need-about-tree-fiddy.jpg

line?

I answered the question without answering it. Or did I?

Lol, good one :).

You don't even care about the fact pirate scammed you...
How does your federal attorney wife feel about the fact that pirate is the one fingering you in the ass and not her?

But I'm not surprised you're not answering.

I think his sig does the community a service in that it demonstrates what a freeloader the guy is so they can better decide whether or not to do business with him or pay any attention to what he says.

The description you provide here does not seem to match very well with the charges in the indictment. Vleisides plead guilty, which means that he agrees that he did the following, at least with respect to the first count/mailing.

(please excuse OCR errors)

The Grand Jury charges:
COUNTS ONE THROUGH ELEVEN [18 U.S.C. §§ 1341, 2]
A. INTRODUCTION
1. At all times relevant to this Indictment:

a. Shamrock Agency, German Swiss Group, World Expert Fund, Mutual Medical Insurance Co, Old Amsterdam Trust Co, Euro American Fax Co, European Union Commission, EU American Payment Co, Global Search Network, North American Foreign Payments Services, Worldwide Verification Service, and others (collectively, the "Fraudulent Lottery and Pension Companies") were companies purporting to, for a fee, enter individuals in the United States into foreign and domestic lotteries, and to set up pension accounts.

b.   Defendants SONNY VLEISIDES ("VLEISIDES"), JAMES RAY HOUSTON, aka Rex Rogers ("HOUSTON"), and DENNIS EMMETT ("EMMETT") owned and controlled portions of the Fraudulent Lottery and Pension Companies.

c.   Defendant WILLIAM CLOUD ("CLOUD") worked for the Fraudulent Lottery and Pension Companies, which work included handling offshore mailing addresses, creating and maintaining victim lists, and handling and directing the handling of victim funds.

d.   Defendant SCOTT HENRY WALTHER ("WALTHER") worked for the Fraudulent Lottery and Pension Companies, which work included overseeing the finances of the Fraudulent Lottery and Pension Companies, and controlling some of the bank accounts related to those entities.

B. THE SCHEME TO DEFRAUD

2. Beginning in or about 1990, and continuing to at least in or about July 2006, in Los Angeles, Orange, Ventura, San Louis Obispo, and Riverside Counties, within the Central District of California, and elsewhere, defendants VLEISIDES, HOUSTON, EMMETT, CLOUD, and WALTHER, together with others known and unknown to the Grand Jury, knowingly and with intent to defraud, devised, participated in, and executed a scheme to defraud victims as to a material matter, and to obtain money and property from such victims by means of material false and fraudulent pretenses, representations, and promises, and by the concealment of material facts.

3. To execute the scheme to defraud, defendants VLEISIDES, HOUSTON, EMMETT, CLOUD, and WALTHER and others known and unknown to the Grand Jury set up and operated the Fraudulent Lottery and Pension Companies. The scheme operated as follows:

a. Defendants VLEISIDES, HOUSTON, EMMETT, CLOUD, and WALTHER, and others known and unknown to the Grand Jury created and sent over one million solicitations purportedly offering increased chances of winning foreign and domestic lotteries such as "The Australian Lottery," "The International Irish Sweepstakes," "The El Gordo," "The Bunderschmidt," "The NY Super 7," and the "Triple Crown Lottery." The solicitations claimed that the victims were purchasing "positions" in tickets to lotteries that would be grouped together or "pooled" to buy larger blocks of tickets. The solicitations contained various misrepresentations, including but not limited to the following:

i.   That money sent by participants in the pool would be used to purchase tickets in lotteries, horse races, and other such games;

ii.   That participants in the pool had a chance to win millions of dollars;

iii. That previous participants in the pool had won millions of dollars through the pool;

iv.   That the companies were backed by governmental and/or legitimate lottery entities;

v.   That the companies were well-established and had been in business for long periods of time; and

vi.   That winnings invested into the lottery's trust or pension accounts would pay monthly pension checks until the end of the victim's life, and then would pay an amount to a beneficiary as if the money were a life insurance policy.

b.   The solicitations induced the victims to send payments to the Fraudulent Lottery and Pension Companies via the United States mail, in that along with the solicitations, defendants VLEISIDES, HOUSTON, EMMETT, CLOUD, and WALTHER and others known and unknown to the Grand Jury provided the victims with envelopes preaddressed to commercial mail receiving agencies established by defendant CLOUD and others known and unknown to the Grand Jury in the Netherlands and Ireland, among other locations.

c.   At the direction of defendants VLEISIDES, HOUSTON, and EMMETT, defendant WALTHER and others known and unknown to the Grand Jury first deposited the victims' money into accounts defendant WALTHER and others known and unknown to the Grand Jury established at numerous banks in accounts with names that sounded like official lotteries, for example: Shamrock Agency, World Expert, Old Amsterdam, German Swiss, Global Search Newtwork, and EUC, and official pensions, for example: Mutual Medical Insurance Company ("the Deposit Accounts").

d.   After the victims' money was deposited into the Deposit Accounts, at the direction of defendants VLEISIDES,
HOUSTON, and EMMETT, defendant WALTHER and others known and unknown to the Grand Jury transferred some of the victims' money into another set of accounts, with the following names, among others: North American Payment and EU Payment Service ("the Payment Accounts").

e.   From the Payment Accounts, at the direction of defendants VLEISIDES, HOUSTON, and EMMETT, defendant WALTHER and others known and unknown to the Grand Jury wrote checks falsely represented as lottery winnings and sent them back to the victims. The amount of the alleged "winnings" sent to each victim was far less than the amount the victim had sent in.

f.   At the direction of defendants VLEISIDES, HOUSTON, and EMMETT, defendant WALTHER and others known and unknown to the Grand Jury transferred some of the money from the Lottery Accounts and Payment Accounts to another set of accounts, which were in names similar to Henry Walther Attorney Wire Account ("the Syphon Accounts").

g.   At the direction of defendants VLEISIDES, HOUSTON, and EMMETT, defendant WALTHER and others known and unknown to the Grand Jury wrote checks (or transferred money by wire) from the Lottery Accounts and the Payment Accounts to the Syphon Accounts.

h.   Defendants VLEISIDES, HOUSTON, EMMETT, CLOUD, and WALTHER and others known and unknown to the Grand Jury used money from the Syphon Accounts to continue the scheme by paying scheme expenses, as well as to provide benefits to defendants VLEISIDES, HOUSTON, EMMETT, CLOUD, and WALTHER.

i.   Defendants VLEISIDES, HOUSTON, EMMETT, CLOUD, and WALTHER and others known and unknown to the Grand Jury also misappropriated funds from the Lottery Accounts and Payment Accounts in the form of checks to cash, checks to themselves, or checks to the payment of personal or scheme expenses.

C. THE MISREPRESENTATIONS AND CONCEALMENT OF MATERIAL FACTS

4. In furtherance of the scheme to defraud, defendants VLEISIDES, HOUSTON, EMMETT, CLOUD, and WALTHER, and others known and unknown to the Grand Jury, engaged in and willfully caused others known and unknown to the Grand Jury to engage in the following material fraudulent and deceptive acts, practices, devices, and representations, among others, and knowingly concealed and caused others known and unknown to the Grand Jury to conceal the following material facts, among others:

a.   Defendants VLEISIDES, HOUSTON, EMMETT, CLOUD, and WALTHER falsely represented to victims, and caused others known and unknown to the Grand Jury to falsely represent to victims, that if the victims sent money to the Fraudulent Lottery and Pension Companies, that money would be used to purchase tickets in lotteries and other such games. In truth and in fact, as defendants VLEISIDES, HOUSTON, EMMETT, CLOUD, and"WALTHER then well knew, the money was not used to purchase such tickets, but rather was used to send purported winnings to other victims, to otherwise further the fraudulent scheme, and to benefit defendants VLEISIDES, HOUSTON, EMMETT, CLOUD, WALTHER and others known and unknown to the Grand Jury.

b.   Defendants VLEISIDES, HOUSTON, EMMETT, CLOUD, and WALTHER falsely represented to victims, and caused others known and unknown to the Grand Jury to falsely represent to victims, that if the victims sent money to the Fraudulent Lottery and Pension Companies, they had a chance to win millions of dollars through the Fraudulent Lottery and Pension Companies. In truth and in fact, as defendants VLEISIDES, HOUSTON, EMMETT, CLOUD, anc WALTHER then well knew, no participant had a chance to win millions of dollars through the Fraudulent Lottery and Pension Companies.

c.   Defendants VLEISIDES, HOUSTON, EMMETT, CLOUD, and WALTHER falsely represented to victims, and caused others known and unknown to the Grand Jury to falsely represent to victims, that previous participants in the Fraudulent Lottery and Pension Companies had won millions of dollars. In truth and in fact, as defendants VLEISIDES, HOUSTON, EMMETT, CLOUD, and WALTHER then well knew, no participant in the Fraudulent Lottery and Pension Companies had ever won millions of dollars through the Fraudulent Lottery and Pension Companies.

d.   Defendants VLEISIDES, HOUSTON, EMMETT, CLOUD, and WALTHER falsely represented to victims, and caused others known and unknown to the Grand Jury to falsely represent to victims, that the Fraudulent Lottery and Pension Companies were backed by governmental and/or legitimate lottery entities. In truth and ir fact, as defendants VLEISIDES, HOUSTON, EMMETT, CLOUD, and WALTHER then well knew, the Fraudulent Lottery and Pension Companies were not backed by any governmental or legitimate lottery entity.

e.   Defendants VLEISIDES, HOUSTON, EMMETT, CLOUD, and WALTHER falsely represented to victims, and caused others known and unknown to the Grand Jury to falsely represent to victims, that checks sent to victims represented winnings from the victims' participation in lotteries, horse races, or other games. In truth and in fact, as defendants VLEISIDES, HOUSTON, EMMETT, CLOUD, and WALTHER then well knew, the checks sent to victims were not from victims' winnings but were actually funds sent in by other victims.

f.   Defendants VLEISIDES, HOUSTON, EMMETT, CLOUD, and WALTHER falsely represented to victims, and caused others known and unknown to the Grand Jury to falsely represent to victims, that winnings invested into the Fraudulent Lottery and Pension Companies' accounts would pay monthly pension checks until the end of the victim's life, and then would pay an amount to a beneficiary as if the money were a life insurance policy. In truth and in fact, as defendants VLEISIDES, HOUSTON, EMMETT, CLOUD, and WALTHER then well knew, there were no separate pension or life insurance accounts for victims, and victims would not be paid as promised.

g.   Defendants VLEISIDES, HOUSTON, EMMETT, CLOUD, and WALTHER caused letters to be sent to victims falsely claiming to be from individuals with a background in and connection to legitimate foreign lotteries. In truth and in fact, as defendants VLEISIDES, HOUSTON, EMMETT, CLOUD, and WALTHER then well knew, the persons from whom the letters sent by the Fraudulent Lottery and Pension Company purported to be did not exist.

D. THE EFFECT OF THE SCHEME TO DEFRAUD

5. Through the above-described scheme to defraud, defendants VLEISIDES, HOUSTON, EMMETT, CLOUD, and WALTHER caused tens of thousands of victims to send over $25 million to the Fraudulent Lottery and Pension Companies. E. THE MAILINGS

6. On or about the dates listed below, in Los Angeles, Orange, Ventura, San Louis Obispo, and Riverside Counties, withii the Central District of California, and elsewhere, defendants VLEISIDES, HOUSTON, EMMETT, CLOUD, and WALTHER, for the purpose of executing the above-described scheme to defraud, caused the following items to be placed in an authorized depository for mai; matter and to be sent and delivered by the U.S. Postal Service and to be deposited with and to be delivered by private and commercial interstate carriers, according to the directions thereon:

[long list of checks omitted]

COUNTS TWELVE THROUGH TWENTY-THREE [18 U.S.C. §§ 1956(a) (1) (A) (i) , 2]

7.   The Grand Jury hereby realleges and incorporates by reference paragraphs one through five of this Indictment.

8.   On or about the following dates, in Los Angeles County, within the Central District of California, and elsewhere, defendants SONNY VLEISIDES, JAMES RAY HOUSTON, DENNIS EMMETT, WILLIAM CLOUD, and SCOTT HENRY WALTHER, knowing that the property involved in each of the financial transactions represented the proceeds of some form of unlawful activity, knowingly conducted, attempted to conduct, and aided, abetted, counseled, commanded, induced, procured, and willfully caused the following financial transactions affecting interstate commerce, which transactions in fact involved the proceeds of specified unlawful activity, that is, mail fraud, in violation of Title 18, United States Code, Section 1341, with the intent to promote the carrying on of such specified unlawful activity:

[long list of checks omitted]

To mail fraud.  Can you point out where it says he plead guilty to the other counts?  Have you ever been to a criminal court, especially one where the outcome is not at all clear for the prosecuting party (as is the case here) and promises to drag along for a very long time?  

Have you ever been sued?  Why do people/companies settle out of court so often, even when they know they are right?  Because the legal system is slow and expensive... so have your life destroyed/delayed while it's dragging on and on and financial ruin set upon you through defending yourself or agree to a lesser charge and have it over and done with so you can go home?  

CubedRoot:  Why the hell would you be looking for an SEC filing for a privately held company?  That makes about as much sense as panning for gold in a bathtub, good luck with either of those.

I go free balling occasionally, does that count? 

Quoted for "Holy Shit."

Nope, as said before, I owe nothing.  I did not touch a PPT in any form.  Feel free to make shit up, though.  At least try to be interesting when you do it.

Quoted for "Please follow your own advice in the future."

Are you finding out this stuff as you go along Inaba or was it made known to you when you joined BFL as staff?

He did not plead guilty to the other counts; but they were duplicates of the first count, except for different fraudulent letters sent to different victims (counts 1-11) and different checks received from victims (counts 12-23).

He plead to the first count. Here is the text from the change of plea hearing:

"PROCEEDINGS: CHANGE OF PLEA
Court and counsel confer re the change of plea. Defendant moves to change plea to the Indictment. Defendant now enters a new and different plea of Guilty to Count One of the Indictment. The Court questions the defendant regarding the plea of Guilty and finds a factual and legal basis for the plea; waivers of constitutional rights are freely, voluntarily and intelligently made; plea is provident; plea is accepted and entered.
The Court refers the defendant to the Probation Office for the preparation of a presentence report and continues the matter to April 12, 2010 at 1:30 p.m., for sentencing.
The Court vacates the court and/or jury trial date."

I understood your first message to suggest that Mr. Vleisides has been honest and open regarding his crime, plea, and conviction. Your response above seems to suggest that Mr. Vleisides believes that he was innocent of the crimes he was charged with, but deliberately plead guilty anyway. Is that a more accurate summary of the situation?

Your original summary was: "He was involved in off shore gaming in the capacity of selling and providing software engineering to companies that did the actual offshore gaming (there is even a US patent application for the process)."

.. but according to the indictment, there was no offshore gaming, just people pretending to be associated with offshore games, when in fact they were simply taking people's money. No gambling at all was occurring, which is why the indictment/conviction was for mail fraud, not illegal gambling.

I really think this is all that needs to be said.

Bitcoin transactions are non-reversable. Trust, reputation, is the name of the game in the long term.

Unless we desire to be under the control of various nation-states and their enforcement regimes.

Is BFL worthy to be a linch-pin of the Bitcoin eco-system?

Inaba,

Just out of curiosity has Sonny Chris Vleisides, ever communicated with his customers directly or participated in the forums. Perhaps given all the discovery that has occurred it may be time for him to do so. If, and I mean this seriously, his probation allows it. I would suggest a civil (e.g. moderated) town hall of sorts where people can ask and have answered their questions and concerns

Search the forums. He has directly answered customer service technical requests.

You've jumped out of  a plane nude before also?

Witnessed.

I was made aware of it prior to my employment.


That's correct.  


It's my understanding (but I am not a lawyer) that the government would not be able to get a prosecution for the offshore gaming (and Italy would not extradite if the US intended to prosecute on those charges), since it was legal in that jurisdiction and instead went for mail fraud, since the lotteries via mail were involved.

I'm not familiar with his forum handle

"technical requests". OK.

I'm curious as to whether he ever said, or referred to, "four to six weeks".

David,

I have emails from him only as Sonny K.

Fully agree on the moderated town hall.  Even Reddit AMA would be acceptable.

And I am not surprised that you found this acceptable.

It's my understanding (but I am not a lawyer) that the government would not be able to get a prosecution for the offshore gaming (and Italy would not extradite if the US intended to prosecute on those charges), since it was legal in that jurisdiction and instead went for mail fraud, since the lotteries via mail were involved.
[/quote]

in the indictment though it states:

...From the Payment Accounts, at the direction of defendants VLEISIDES, HOUSTON, and EMMETT, defendant WALTHER and others known and unknown to the Grand Jury wrote checks falsely represented as lottery winnings and sent them back to the victims. The amount of the alleged "winnings" sent to each victim was far less than the amount the victim had sent in.

This would seem to indicate that the knowingly attempted to deceive people into thinking they had won a foreign lottery to induce them to send in more money. I hate to say this but the two accounts do not line up for me

This is a good idea and I am sure he would be happy to comply with it, so long as people are civil and rational.  He does not like the irrationality and mad-dog nature of the forums in the least (and who can blame him?), whereas I don't mind it a bit, hence why I'm the go between.  


No, only fully clothed.  The tandem guy I was strapped to said he wouldn't strap himself to me if stuff that shouldn't be flapping around started flapping around.  Prude.

Seen quotations from emails from Sonny. Search "sonny". :)

For the town hall, what about IRC or is that too esoteric for a lot of people?  And when?  I will absolutely make this happen ASAP if we can agree on a time and place.

how about a webex or other similar type of webcast tech - that way you could fully moderate the proceedings to keep it civil

He could keep it civil?

At this point I suggest a third, neutral, party is appropriate.

That's getting a bit complicated, lets keep it to the forums at least for the time being.  I would like to get a mod to keep an eye on it and take care of the griefers, but any legitimate, rational discourse would be welcomed.

Which mod would agree and would be agreeable to everyone?

I've got an appointment to get to... if someone wants to contact a mod and explain what we want to do, that  would be great (and it would keep me from being implicated as trying to game the situation).  I will talk to Sonny and get things going from this end as well.

Be mindful to check pickforks and torches at the door.

IRC will just get nasty.  At the very least, people can nick flood the channel.

Plus, given the #btcst-trust and other débâcles lately, it may be best to have an open, durable, but not real-time forum.  Can anyone set up an AMA on Reddit?  At least there will be the opportunity to vote down Hyde Reeses funfests and focus on specific, targeted, questions.

The linear nature of the forums would preclude multiple threads of detailed interaction.

You don't need a Moderator. You just need Local Thread Rules.
People who don't follow them, you report them and the posts get deleted. If they prevaricate they'll likely get banned for a cool off period.

What?

I would suggest, webex, Live meeting, Reddit or any other webcast technology. The reason why is that VOIP can be used so that answers that require complex explanations can be fully explained. I think typing out, the kind if inquiries that are likely to come across, may prove daunting and tedious, plus expose the answers to misinterpretation as so often happens with emails and forum discussions  (as evidenced in this thread here)

plus forums are terrible for town halls as you get simultaneous linear threads that conflict with each other  - like now as we discuss the best way to accomplish a town hall

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/prevaricate

What didn't you understand?

While I don't think I want to hear the speaking voices of most of the people here, I agree in part.  However, a lot of people who would be comfortable typing (hey, we're all forum nerds, right?) would not be especially comfortable or composed on a phone call with hundreds of people listening.

I do think that you would serve as a reasonable nomination for moderator, if a moderator is called for.  You seem pragmatic and even-keeled, even if we don't agree on legal issues.

My concern with any VOIP interaction is that there is no persistent record.

Parties involved have shown their willingness to deny/erase prior statements.

What other threads are in simultaneous conflict with this conversation, please?

That word does not mean what you think it means, but good for you, trying to improve yourself.

It doesn't? Tell me more about it, then... And leave the *boring clichés out of it.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/evade

In a webcast the speaker would just be Sonny and Perhaps Josh. The questions would be submitted via the webcast (eg typed by people participating and listening) then moderated and handed off the the speaker to answer

It would work with better grammar.

...see how bad a forum is for a live dialog and there are just a few people participating in this discussion. Add another fifty or several hundred and it will be indecipherable

I am going to go eat some dinner  - Hopefully you guys will be able to come to a working consensus on a workable town hall process and perhaps even agree on what prevaricate means

So? Any tips to improve the grammar?

Actually, I doubt that any kind of 'live' forum is appropriate.

I suggest compiling a list of questions, in text, that BFL will reply to, in text.
With a follow-up round of questions and responses.

This allows pre-meditation on both sides. (And, hopefully, time to consider tone and etiquette.)

-- edit --

And time and publicity needs to be allowed to gather the questions. An announcement and solicitation needs be posted to all the relevant threads of BFL interest.

I enjoy supporting companies and teams that enrich the BTC community. Do not forget that other enterprises promising ASIC's designed devices will be soon released for use in the Bitcoin network. Hopefully in the near future,  BFL will be as successful in introducing their ASIC offering as they were with their FPGA powered devices.

Actually I literally used your example "evade". I think your use of the word is okay.

Except for saying "they <word> they'll". That is nasty! ;)

good points
A webcast would be better. probably with a small video tour of the manufacturing facility. and have it given days in advance so the moderator has time to receive questions to vet them before BFL answers them. as i believe there would be many many questions.

so moderating them live would be harder to achieve and slow down the flow of the webcast. also it would give BFL time to prep for the kind of things their customers want answers to.

so hopefully there would not be a ' why do you need to know this ' reply.

Does this alleviate anyone's suspicions at all?
If Inaba/BFL_Josh is willing to be an "accomplice" (am I a lawyer now too?), then he would have just put himself in the shit.

You can be a lawyer.  I award you the reeses diploma of law.  Here in CA we don't have to be accredited law schools, so it's all good.

And yes, Josh just eliminated his credibility by lying about the international gambling/patents bullshit right before the truth came out.  Whether there's a crime...remains to be seen.

The poor guy got burnt on some summer house rental auction thing once and the whole community humiliated him to no end.  It would not surprise me if he were so butt-hurt about that that he would consider screwing everyone over to be something of a pay-back, and possibly lucrative as well.  Even if BFL is a scam it's not the kind of thing anyone gets in trouble for (except perhaps those who are already on parole or whatever.  Damn inconvenient government getting all up in people's business and all rather than letting the free market sort things out.)

They've taken lots of "real money" preorders via PayPal.  Considering that Sonny is already on probation and presumably barred from international travel, etc. it would be ridiculously stupid for him to involve himself in a scam.  Just sayin'.  Some scammers are compulsive, though, and can't help themselves.  Those people are sociopaths.

There's a lot more information in the affidavit for an extradition warrant: http://www.scribd.com/doc/106417808

.. but most of the details are below. Apologies, again, for OCR errors.


AFFIDAVIT

I, Timothy Nugent, being duly sworn, state as follows:

1.   I am a citizen of the United States and a resident of the State of California.

2.   I am a Special Agent with the Internal Revenue Service's Criminal Investigation Division (IRS-CID), and have been so employed since 1994. Upon joining the IRS, I received training in a wide array of criminal offenses at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center and the Federal Bureau of Investigation Academy, including white collar offenses such as mail fraud, wire fraud, money laundering and tax evasion. I have also had specific training in the identification and investigation of frauds involving elderly victims. I have been involved in many investigations of this type. I have also been involved in more than a hundred investigations of financial crimes.

3.   My duties as an IRS-CID Special Agent included participation in the investigation of SONNY VLEISIDES in the case of United States v. SONNY VLEISIDES. et al.. Case. No. CR 07-134. As a case agent in this investigation, I have become familiar with the facts of the investigation involving the criminal activity of VLEISIDES.

4.   SONNY VLEISIDES is charged in an indictment filed in the United States District Court for the Central District of California on February 28, 2007, with eleven counts of mail fraud, in violation of Title 18, United States Code, Sections 1341 and 2, and twelve counts of money laundering, in violation of Title 18, United States Code, Sections 1956(a)(1)(A)(i) and 2.

5.   A joint investigation involving the IRS-CID and the United States Postal Inspection Service (USPIS), revealed that from at least 1990 through July 2006, SONNY VLEISIDES, James Ray Houston, Dennis Emmett, William Cloud, Henry Walther, Scott Henry Walther, and others committed a massive international lottery scam using the following company names: Shamrock Agency, German Swiss Group, World Expert Fund, Mutual Medical Insurance Co, Old Amsterdam Trust Co, Euro American Fax Co, European Union Commission, EU American Payment Co, Global Search Network, North American Foreign Payments Services, Wor'dwide Verification Service, and others. VLEISIDES ran the scheme along with Houston and Emmett. VLEISIDES, Houston and Emmett, who were all located in Costa Rica, worked with mailing houses which, at the direction of VLEISIDES, Houston, and Emmett, sent out tens of thousands of mailings to victims in the United States, many of whom were elderly. The mailings contained false statements, half truths, and omissions, and induced the victims to participate in various international lotteries, falsely stating that if the victims participated, they were guaranteed to win or had a very good chance to win. The mailings directed the victims to send their money to Ireland, at d the Netherlands, among other locations, where William Cloud had set up addresses with commercial mail receiving agencies and individuals to forward the money, eventually, back to the United States. After receipt at the commercial mail receiving agencies, the victims' money was sent to Henry Walther, who, along with his son Scott Henry Walther, deposited the money into various bank accounts and then distributed it as directed by VLEISIDES, Houston, and Emmett. Some of the money was spent on furthering the criminal activity. Some of the money was paid out to victims in small-dollar checks that the co-schemers misrepresented to be lottery winnings. The rest of the money was paid out to the co-schemers and others for their own use. VLEISIDES and the other defendants did not buy any lottery tickets, and the vast majority of the victims lost the money they sent. The total loss from the scheme is in excess of $19 million.

6.   I have spoken with the other case agents and reviewed the evidence collected during the investigation, including agent reports of victims and participants in the scheme, and evidence seized from several search warrants executed in the United States in July 2006.

Victim Statements

7.   Many victims of the scheme were interviewed. Some typical victim statements are as follows:

8. Clarence Enge

a.   Amy Von Freyman stated that her grandfather, Clarence Enge, who is in his 80s, received letters via the United States mail from companies soliciting his participation in foreign lotteries. Since 1997, Enge had sent $600-$1200/month to such companies, including to OLD AMSTERDAM and SHAMROCK AGENCY. In order to continue his participation he refinanced his home. Von Freyman had at least 45 unopened letters that had been mailed to her grandfather from companies including WORLD EXPERT and SHAMROCK AGENCY. These letters were addressed to Clarence Enge from "World Expert-Licensed Agent" (no return address), "The Shamrock Agency" with a return address of "C12 Smithson Industrial, Estate Shannon Co Clare, Rep of Ireland" and "Global Search Network, c/o Inter-European Insured Delivery." The mailings were sent to Enge via the US Mail using regular first class stamps. The postmarks on the envelopes had dates ranging between 1998-2003, from Little Rock, Arkansas, and St. Louis and Kansas City, Missouri.

b.   One letter from World Expert Fund-Licensed Agent, addressed to Enge, was postmarked from Little Rock, Arkansas, dated "13 Jun 2002." The envelope contained: A colorful solicitation for "The Giant Bunderschmidt," which contained phrases like: "Almost every third number wins in the 8!h annual Bunderschmidt European Lottery Marathon;" "Win big with as little as 1 a week!", "A grand total of $251,548,908 in prizes. Add to this all the promotional prizes involved, and you have an unprecedented Quarter Billion Dollar European lottery bonanza," "A full 30% of al! tickets will win!", "Official European Lottery," "WORLD EXPERT FUND-BERLIN GERMANY Bunderschmidt-Licensed Agent," "Make checks payable to World Expert Fund."

c.   Also included were two "official receipts" for the "Euro Cities Capital 7 game." This official receipt provided a "ticket ID number" and stated that: "This is your official receipt for 30 consecutive days in the Euro-Cities Capital 7 game. Your numbers are shown in the windows above. Prizes will be paid in US dollars and checks will be mailed to you within 10 days by the licensed agent drawn on a U.S. Bank." On the bottom of the receipt in small writing was "Licensed Agent: World Expert Fund, Berlin-Amsterdam-Tokyo, International License # EC-51G04." The back of the receipt stated, "The European Union Group of Eight is an international lottery cooperation association limited to the members of the European Union only. Sale of official lottery tickets . . . are licensed to the following organizations: [1] The Shamrock Agency of Shannon Ireland

d.   A "Mail Order Request Form" was also included with the solicitations. On this form were lines to write a credit card number with the expiration date. The form stated that the charge would appear on the bill as "EURO AMERICAN."

e.   An envelope that was included was preaddressed to "PROCESS CENTER, PO BOX 10006, 1001 EA, AMSTERDAM, THE NETHERLANDS."

f.   Another envelope was postmarked September 5, 2002, from St. Louis, Missouri. The sender was "WORLD EXPERT-LICENSED AGENT." The envelope contained a letter entitled "A SPECIAL MEMO FROM R.L. DOORNE," which claimed to be "electronically transmitted from Berlin." The letter stated, "We have combined and recorded your purchases of fractional tickets in the $250 million 'BUNDERSCHMIDT' 13 Week European Lottery Marathon." The letter stated: "HOW IT ALL WORKS: in the computerized ticket entry system of which our syndicate is a part, only computerized ticket numbers are issued - NO PAPER. The drawings are done over a 13 week period which began on Saturday, July 6, 2002." The letter goes on to explain that Enge's ticket had not won but stated,"... If you are yet to win a prize your ticket will be marked 'Still Valid'." According to the letter Enge's ticket was marked "Still Valid." The letter stated: "REMEMBER, 30% of all tickets will WIN before the 13 weeks are finished."

g. Many other envelopes provided by Von Freyman had solicitations similar to those described above, from companies including GLOBAL SEARCH and SHAMROCK AGENCY.

9. Paul Greven

a. When interviewed, Paul Greven stated that he had sent checks to EURO AMERICAN to play foreign lotteries. He was not sure of the total amount he had sent. Greven said he had won only a small amount in the form of small dollar amount checks that he reinvested into the lottery. The companies with which he was involved included the Irish Sweepstakes and EURO AMERICAN. Greven pointed out that the solicitations looked professional and they "make it sound so good and easy to win." Greven provided two binders full of documents, which contained the following, among other things:

i.   A letter addressed to Greven stating it is an "Official Announcement of Winning Tickets in the 2003 Irish Sweepstake Triple Crown." The . letterhead indicated it was from "The Shamrock Agency" and claimed it had been a "Certified Service since 1959." The letter stated: "Millionaires by the score! We have just finished round one of the verification process of the Triple Crown 118 major Jackpot winning tickets. Enclosed is a list of the winning numbers. Congratulations to the jackpot winners.. . ." The letter informed Greven to be patient for "round 2 of the winning verification process" but encouraged him not to ".. . delay in getting the 'Jump' on next year's Triple Crown millions (order form enclosed)." It also stated that the Triple Crown was unlike any other lottery because players could be sure there is no ". . . 'Inside corruption' or 'secret trick' . . . ." The letter was signed by "Sir William Winfield, Northup Manor, Shannon Ireland."

ii.   Another letter was related to the El Gordo lottery and was from a man named "Wilhelm C. Cashman." The letter claimed that Cashman was offering more chances to win by "refunding" his commissions and fees by giving a 25% discount in the cost of additional ticket positions purchased. The end of the solicitation stated, "I truly want to see you win big so please let me hear from you right away to allow necessary time for international mail delivery."

iii.   Other solicitations were from OLD AMSTERDAM and MUTUAL MEDICAL. These solicitations started by claiming that Greven had won money, which gave him the opportunity to become a member of "our medical mutual Pension insurance Trust." The solicitations claimed that by endorsing the $600 bank draft, Greven,. . will begin to receive a pension annuity check for the rest of your life . . . ." At the end of the solicitation the reader was instructed to endorse the investment draft along with a "check or M.O. or credit card slip for $112 . . ." and to make the check payable to "SHAMROCK AGENCY." A second solicitation was almost identical, including the graphics, but at the end instructed the victim to make checks payable to "WORLD EXPERT". On one of these solicitations were the words "International Pension Fund Audit Bureau" encircling the US Treasury seal. Another letter for MUTUAL MEDICAL read, "Everything appears to be in order and your LIFE INSURANCE is now in force. However your first PENSION DIVIDEND in the amount of $112 has been delayed   The INSURANCE DEPARTMENT has been unable to VERIFY your BIRTH in the international BIRTH CERTIFICATE computer database If you have a PHOTOCOPY of youre BIRTH CERTIFICATE at home, we can RELEASE your first PENSION DIVIDEND immediately upon receiving this document."

b.   Greven received two checks with a payor of NORTH AMERICAN PAYMENT made payable to Greven. One check was dated July 12, 2002, and was for $55, and the other was dated November 30, 1999, and was for $52. The 2002 check was from a US Bank account in the name of NORTH AMERICAN PAYMENT, which was one of the bank accounts opened by one of the co-schemers of SONNY VLEISIDES. The words, "account closed" were stamped across the front of the check.

c.   Greven had other solicitations, including some from GERMAN SWISS.

10. Paul Wood

a. When interviewed, Paul Wood stated that he had been involved with WORLD EXPERT for about five years. He had played lotteries with them and obtained a form of life insurance from WORLD EXPERT. Woods stated the insurance from WORLD EXPERT FUND was known as the "Gold Reserve Fund." For this he sent $29 per month to the Netherlands to pay for retirement/life insurance. Statements he had received showed that he had approximately $4,000 in his account.

b. Some of the solicitations Wood received were the following:

i.   A letter was postmarked May 27, 2005, from Little Rock, Arkansas. Inside was a cash rebate grant related to WORLD EXPERT and the German Lottery. The rebate grant looked like a check from Inter World Bank. However, on the endorsement section of the check were the sentences, "Do not deposit in US Bank. Return to Berlin for cashing." The letter stated as follows: "GERMAN GOVERNMENT IS GIVING YOU A ONCE IN A LIFETIME OPPORTUNITY!! The German Lotto has grown enormously in an extremely short period of time making it one of the RICHEST lotteries offered to people today. Prize payouts now approximate as much as the equivalent of $915 MILLION U.S. DOLLARS yearly. With such a positive turnover, even under the worst conditions, you are almost guaranteed to win money by joining this SPECIAL FUND we've created to invest in this easy to win German Lottery. REMEMBER: This game is NOT stretched out for several months. You will receive your prize check in 21 days. Just fill out the enclosed green FUND OWNERSHIP CERTIFICATE, mail it back to us, and within twenty one davs vou will receive a check for what could be as much as $658.000 U.S. Dollars as your share of the total won by this SPECIAL FUND." The letter went on to solicit money: "REMINDER: The rules of this promotional cash award require you to endorse the check and include it along with the balance of $27,29 and the enclosed $38 ONE PERCENT CERTIFICATE."

ii.   Also in the letter was a gold sticker that claimed to be a seal from the "ELBC, European Lottery Brokers Commission," which "certifies your purchase is authentic and insured from fraud. . . ." Wood believed the seal represented that the venture was legitimate.

11. Betty Bedwell

a.   When interviewed, Betty Bedwell stated that she had received mailings from SHAMROCK AGENCY, EURO FUND, and OLD AMSTERDAM. She had written checks to each company except Euro Fund. When writing a check to Euro Fund she made it payable to WORLD EXPERT FUND. Bedwell received checks from EURO AMERICAN PAYMENT on behalf of WORLD EXPERT, Berlin, Germany, but was encouraged to and did reinvest the checks by mailing them back to the Netherlands. Bedwell believed she was playing a foreign lottery that actually had a chance of winning. She was encouraged to continue sending money by the stories of people winning told in the solicitations. Bedwell also sent check #104 to OLD AMSTERDAM, which was to establish a pension that she could leave as an inheritance for her grandchildren.

b.   One letter that Bedwell received, which was signed by "Lee Ping, Secretary Treasurer," had a heading that stated: "OLD AMSTERDAM GOLD RESERVE MUTUAL PENSION POOL, Established in 1957." The letter stated in part the following: "As Secretary Treasurer it is my great pleasure to inform you that your application for PENSION POOL membership has been approved by the BOARD OF DIRECTORS. As a new MEMBER you will soon receive your first PENSION DIVIDEND CHECK. But first it is important that you review the enclosed information carefully and NAME the person who is to be your Beneficiary. . . . Just follow the instructions on the back of your INSURANCE POLICY. This special insurance is FREE to all members and will give your BENEFICIARY a MINIMUM amount of money regardless of the balance in your TRUST DEPOSIT ACCOUNT. As a Certified Public Accountant I have reviewed many good pension plans over the years and I find that this particular one is quite advantageous - especially for people who live in countries where the tax authorities use PROBATE as an excuse to collect heavy fees and taxes from Beneficiaries. Such unpleasantness can be avoided under our program. Any money in your TRUST ACCOUNT goes to your BENEFICIARY without the difficulty of a WILL or the intrusion of tax authorities. This means more money for your BENEFICIARY and, perhaps most important, PEACE OF MIND for both you and your Beneficiary."

c. A check from Bedwell made payable to WORLD EXPERT for $120 and a check from Bedwell to OLD AMSTERDAM for $500 were deposited into back accounts controlled by the co-schemers of SONNY VLEISIDES.

12.   When interviewed, the following individuals, who are named along with some of the victims discussed above in the mail fraud counts of the indictment, related similar information regarding being victimized by the scheme: Donald Thompson, Fred Phipps, John Smith, Fred Mars and Lucille Giles.

13.   In furtherance of the scheme to defraud, the following mailings, among many others, were sent by the companies run by SONNY VLEiSIDES and his co-schemers, to victims of the scheme:

a.   On March 8, 2002, The Shamrock Agency sent a letter through the U.S. mails with a sweepstakes solicitation to victim Paul Greven. The mailing detailed the alleged winnings of a man who participated in the sweepstakes. This letter forms the basis of the mail fraud charge in count one of the indictment.

b.   On March 18, 2002, World Expert Fund sent a letter through the U.S. mails to victim Lucille Gilles, welcoming her to the German lottery. This letter forms the basis of the mail fraud charge in count two of the indictment.

c.   On March 19, 2003, Old Amsterdam Gold Reserve Trust sent a letter through the U.S. mails to victim Lucille Gilles, regarding her supposed participation in their pension pool. This letter forms the basis of the mail fraud charge in count three of the indictment.

d.   On July 31, 2004, World Expert Fund sent a letter through the U.S. mails to victim Betty Bedwell, acknowledging a previous "investment," and inviting her to invest more money. This letter forms the basis of the mail fraud charge in count four of the indictment.

e.   On April 25, 2005, a mailing regarding the Bunder Pro lottery was sent through the U.S. mails to victim Betty Bedwell, confirming her supposed purchase of a ticket. This letter forms the basis of the mail fraud charge in count five of the indictment.

f.   On April 25, 2005, Global Search Network sent a letter through the U.S. mails to victim Fred Phipps, which included alleged opportunities to purchase "positions" in the El Gordo lottery of Spain, and containing what appears to be a check. This letter forms the basis of the mail fraud charge in count six of the indictment.

g.   On August 9, 2005, World Expert Fund sent a letter through the U.S. mails to victim Lucille Gilles, falsely claiming that the Australian government was awarding a cash rebate. This letter forms the basis of the mail fraud charge in count seven of the indictment.

h.   On May 17, 2006, World Expert Fund sent a letter through the U.S. mails to victim Don E. Thompson falsely claiming that the Australian government was awarding a cash rebate. This letter forms the basis of the mail fraud charge in count eight of the indictment.

i. On May 23, 2006, World Expert Fund sent a letter through the U.S. mails to victim Don E. Thompson, offering him the purported opportunity to purchase lottery tickets. This letter forms the basis of the mail fraud charge in count nine of the indictment.

j. On May 31, 2006, World Expert Fund sent a letter through the U.S. mails to victim John R. Smith regarding his supposed purchase of 1/2 of a ticket in the Euro Pro lottery and inducing him to purchase more. This letter forms the basis of the mail fraud charge in count ten of the indictment.

k. On June 23, 2006, Global Search Network sent a letter through the U.S. mails to victim Fred Mars regarding his alleged purchase of positions in the "El Gordo" lottery. This letter forms the basis of the mail fraud charge in count eleven of the indictment. Non-Victim Witnesses

14.   When interviewed, Michael Bolger stated that Unit C12 Smithstown Industrial Estate (same address from which lottery letters were sent to victim Enge) was a mailing address he operated for a lottery based in the United States called the SHAMROCK AGENCY. The SHAMROCK AGENCY also used a mailing address in Limerick, Ireland and the address of 43 Cill Chais, Shannon, Co Clare, Ireland. Bolger collected the mail at the mailing addresses and then forwarded it in a sack to an address in Holland. Bolger received payment for his forwarding via Western Union. As far as Bolger knew, the people who operate the business in the USA are William Cloud and Scott Henry Walther.

15.   Interviews of Bernhard Von Kleef and William Finiayson were done in Amsterdam relating to the addresses there to which victims had sent money for the lottery. When interviewed, Bernhard van Kleef stated that he rented a room to a man named Thomas McGovern. McGovern received mail there under the business name World Wide Expert. He met McGovern through William Cloud, who owned a bar called Flying Dutchmen and also owned the business World Wide Expert. Van Kleef also said that he worked for Cloud as a chauffeur, picking up bags of mail which Cloud took home and sorted.

16.   When interviewed, William Finlayson stated that in 2001, William Cloud rented a postbox from him. Cloud told him that he had a business named World Wide Express or possibly Expert that had something to do with lotteries. He explained that people sent Cloud checks and he filed Lotto numbers.

17.   When interviewed, Dave Bunch, who works for the US Post Office in charge of bulk mailing in West Plains, Missouri, stated that had worked at this Post Office since before 1986. Bunch knew PJ Swink by sight as a customer and member of the community. Bunch knew that PJ Swink operated a bulk mailing business. For about two or three years, PJ Swink had purchased more than 2000 first class stamps every two weeks. Bunch also saw PJ Swink pick up sixty 2-foot letter bins every two weeks. Each bin can hold 500 letters and is used in bulk mailings. Although Bunch has seen PJ Swink pick these up, he has not seen her drop them off at the West Plains, Missouri, Post Office. Letters being delivered to the West Plains Post Office would be postmarked Springfield, Missouri. If a person wanted a letter to have a postmark from Little Rock, Arkansas, the person would have to drop off the letter only about 50 miles south of West Plains. If a person wanted a letter to have a postmark from St. Louis, Missouri, the person would have to drop off the letter about 80 miles north or east of West Plains, Missouri.

18. When interviewed, PJ and Michael Swink stated the following:

a.   PJ Swink stated that her company, Western Internet, worked for Sonny VLEISIDES. The work PJ Swink did for VLEISIDES included printing as well as stuffing and mailing envelopes. VLEISIDES gave her instructions regarding the preparing, printing, and mailing of lottery solicitations. Western Internet had done this work for VLEISIDES, or his father, "Rex Rogers," since 1993. Since 2000, all of the work PJ Swink had done for VLEiSIDES and "Rex Rogers" had been related to the lottery.

b.   PJ Swink was unaware of the exact name of VLEISIDES' company, because it has had multiple names over the years. Based on conversations and other communications with VLEISIDES over the years, she believed "The Shamrock Agency" and "World Expert" were companies related to VLEISIDES. She believed VLEISIDES also used the name "Atlas Informaticos." Michael Swink stated that VLEISIDES told him that VLEISIDES was a licensed broker for these companies in Europe. PJ Swink and Michael Swink have met VLEISIDES in person.

c.   PJ Swink provided a business card with contact information for VLEISIDES. The information on the card said "SONNY VLEISIDES." The address was in Costa Rica. The email address was sonnv(a>ifcity.com . However, PJ Swink later identified a further email address for VLEISIDES of sonnv@atlasinformaticos.com.

d.   PJ Swink identified some of the letters described in the victim section above as items she had printed and prepared for mailings upon VLEISIDES' direction. In addition to those samples, PJ Swink identified jobs being prepared for VLEISIDES at the time the search warrants were executed. The items identified by PJ Swink as being prepared for VLEISIDES are described at paragraph 26, d., iv. below. In addition, PJ Swink identified the instructions described at paragraph 26, d., i. below as having been provided by VLEISIDES.

e. VLEISIDES sent PJ Swink the printing directions for the mailings aiong with specific directions on how to mail the items. VLEISIDES wanted mailings to be sent from larger towns, such as Little Rock, Arkansas, or St. Louis, Missouri, as opposed to a smaller town like West Plains, Missouri. VLEISIDES told PJ Swink that if the solicitations were mailed from a larger city it increased the chance of the recipient opening the envelope. PJ Swink was instructed to find someone to take the mail to these larger cities for postmark, and she hired a man named Leslie Wilbanks to mail the solicitations.

19.   When interviewed, Janis Desrosiers stated that she worked for Henry Walther beginning in 1998 and ending in 2002. As part of her job, she opened bank accounts in the name of World Expert Fund and North American Foreign Payment at US Bank. She knew that these accounts were being opened for Henry Walther's clients, who included Dennis, Rex, Bill and Sonny. She met these clients prior to 1998 during a trip to Costa Rica with Henry Walther, but did not know their last names. Desrosiers stated that the companies were actually owned by Rex, Sonny and Dennis, but Sonny and Rex ran the operation.

20.   Henry Walther, who has pled guilty to one count of mail fraud and one count of money laundering and is cooperating with the United States government, stated the following when interviewed:

a. Henry Walther explained that the main people involved in the lottery were Houston, VLEISIDES, and Dennis Emmett. The business started with Houston and Emmett. Houston was the principal behind it. Cloud is Houston's brother or halfbrother, and lives in Amsterdam. About five years ago, Houston and Dennis Emmett got into an argument and split their businesses. Then, Houston and VLEISIDES got into an argument, and VLEISIDES took over the business.

b.   For the last five to ten years, Henry Walther has been working as an accountant/banker and attorney for VLEISIDES and Houston, who he also knows as "Rex Vieisides" and "Rex Rogers." Henry Walther explained that VLEISIDES and Houston resided in Costa Rica. Henry Walther explained that Houston and VLEISIDES operated a mail solicitation business involving foreign lotteries and horse racing. Two of the companies they use were The Shamrock Agency and World Expert Fund. Houston and VLEISIDES instructed Henry Walther to open and maintain bank accounts in the United States because the banking system was too slow in Costa Rica.

c.   Henry Walther explained that he received DHL and Federal Express packages full of checks from individuals that were sent from Costa Rica and Amsterdam. The packages sent from Costa Rica were for VLEISIDES' business and the packages from Amsterdam related to Dennis Emmett's business. The packages from Amsterdam came from William Cloud. Henry Walther, or his daughter Kristin Walther, then deposited the checks from Costa Rica and Amsterdam into bank accounts in his name that he opened for VLEISIDES and Houston in the United States. Henry Walther said he knew that these checks were from individuals playing the lottery. As part of his responsibilities, he disbursed funds to people as instructed by VLEISIDES or Houston via wire transfers and checks from the accounts. He also prepared daily balances taking into account deposits and disbursements. Other disbursements for winners were made from accounts he and Scott Walther, Henry Walthers son, established in the name of EU Payment and North American Payment. These were used to pay winners of the lotteries. These payments were for $3.00-$ 100, and once in a while as high as $250. Henry Walther explained that the money for these payment accounts came from transfers made possible from the checks he had been sent from Amsterdam and Costa Rica. As part of his job he transferred money to his wire account which was used to wire money to VLEISIDES and Houston or others upon their direction. Henry Walther stressed that the money in this account belonged to his clients, not him.

d.   Henry Walther also explained that, as the attorney for World Expert and Shamrock Agency, he was instructed to respond to complaints from Attorney Generals Offices and customers. Henry Walther said he was instructed to simply handle them and make them go away. He usually handled them by giving the customers their money back.

e.   Henry Walther identified samples of solicitations obtained from victims as belonging to VLEISIDES. Those included Old Amsterdam Trust and Mutual Medical Insurance Trust.

f.   Henry Walther said he reviewed solicitation letters sent to him by PJ Swink. One letter stated "For the first time in German History, the German Lottery Commission Trust has decided to sponsor a lottery cash rebate program . . .GERMAN GOVERNMENT WANTS TO HELP MAKE YOU MY FUTURE WINNER! . . . With such a positive turnover, even under the worst conditions, you are almost guaranteed to win money .... Warmest regards R.L. DOORNE." Attached to the letter was what appeared to be a check but above the attachment was the phrase "Do not deposit this check in an American bank. The rules of this promotional cash award require you to endorse the check and include it with the balance of $27.82." Another letter read "As a US CLAIMANT your quick action has brought you this UNCLAIMED PRIZE check for $10,00 dollars. , . ." Attached at the bottom was what appeared to be check but was not. In small letters was the phrase "Do not deposit in an American bank."

g. Henry Walther stated that the clients, including Houston and VLEISIDES, hired Desrosiers. Henry Walther instructed Desrosiers on how to handle the bank accounts and related matters.

21. Glenda Emmet, when interviewed, stated the following:

a.   Emmett was the owner of Astro Computer, which operated a mail list business. This included maintaining lists and preparing the letters to be mailed out by a mail house.

b.   For five or six years, her only customer was Global Search Network, which was run by her ex-husband, Dennis Emmett. Dennis Emmett is now in prison in Costa Rica for murder, but was still issuing instructions to her from prison. Before she worked for Global Search Network, she worked for World Expert Fund. That company was owned by VLEISIDES. Her ex-husband, Dennis Emmett, worked with World Expert Fund for some time in Costa Rica.

c.   Henry Walther was also involved with World Expert Fund.

d.   After working for VLEISIDES and World Expert Fund, Dennis Emmett started working for Global Search Network. Emmett said that the solicitation letter Dennis Emmett used for Global Search Network was originally provided by VLEISIDES for World Expert Fund.

e.   Houston is VLEISIDES' father.

f.   Emmett explained that responses to the solicitations were sent to Amsterdam. After being sent to Amsterdam, checks sent in response to the solicitations were sent to Henry Walther. Cloud was the contact person in Amsterdam.

Bank Record Evidence

22. An analysis was done on approximately twenty of the bank accounts established in the United States at the direction of VLEISIDES and his co-schemers. The analysis revealed, in summary, that the victims' money was first deposited into accounts established by the co-schemers at numerous banks in accounts with names that sound like official lotteries: SHAMROCK AGENCY, WORLD EXPERT, OLD AMSTERDAM, GERMAN SWISS, and EUC. (Hereinafter, accounts at this first layer will be referred to as "Deposit Accounts.") The co-schemers obtained over $19 million from tens of thousands of victims and deposited them into these accounts. After the co-schemers deposited the victims' money into the Deposit Accounts, they transferred the money to the next layer of accounts, hereinafter referred to as "Payment Accounts." These accounts were in names that included NORTH AMERICAN PAYMENT and EU PAYMENT SERVICE. From the Payment Accounts, the co-schemers wrote checks represented as winnings and sent them back to the victims. The amount of the alleged "winnings" was far less than the amount the victims sent in - for the over $19 million going into the accounts from victims, only approximately 20% was sent back to victims in the form of "winning" checks. The co-schemers transferred some of the money from the Deposit Accounts and Payment Accounts to the next layer of accounts, which will hereinafter be referred to as "Syphon Accounts." The co-schemers wrote checks (or used wire transfers) from the Lottery Accounts and the Payment Accounts to the Syphon Accounts, which were in names that included WESTERN INTERNET, BUTTERFIELD, CARNEGIE and HENRY WALTHER ATTORNEY WIRE ACCOUNT. Money from the Syphon Accounts was used to continue the scheme by paying scheme expenses, as well as to provide benefits to the co-schemers. The co-schemers also took money at each layer in the form of checks to cash, checks to themselves, or checks to the payment of personal or scheme expenses.

23.   The analysis revealed no payments going toward the purchase of lottery tickets, and no money coming into the accounts from anything appearing to be lottery winnings. Moreover, there were no accounts set aside as pension or insurance deposit accounts as the victims were led to believe.

24.   The transactions described in the money laundering counts were made from accounts into which the proceeds of mail fraud were deposited. The accounts involved in the money laundering counts are as follows:

a.   Wells Fargo Bank account number XXXXXX1687, in the name of North American Foreign Payment, with a signor of co-defendant Scott Walther.

b.   Citibank account number XXXXXXXX4884, in the name of European Union Fulfilment, with a signor of Henry Walther.

c.   Citibank account number XXXXXX4990, in than name of World Expert Fund, with a signor of Scott Walther.

d.   Encino Bank account number XXXXX8795, in the name of Old Amsterdam Trust, with a signor of Scott Walther.

e.   Bank of America account number XXXXXX3386, in the name of Global Search Network, with a signor of Henry Walther.

f.   Georgia State Bank account number XXX6927, in the name of Euro American Fax, with a signor of William Cloud.

g.   US Bank account number XXXXXXXX5188, in the name of The Shamrock Agency, with a signor of Henry Walther.

25. The transactions described in the money laundering counts furthered the scheme as follows:

a.   The two checks described in counts 12 and 13 of the indictment were written on Wells Fargo Bank Account number XXXXXX1687 by Scott Walther, the check described in count 16 of the indictment was written on Encino Bank account number XXXXX8795 by Scott Walther, the check described in count 17 of the indictment was written on Citibank account number XXXXXX4990 by Scott Walther, and the check described in count 23 of the indictment was written on US Bank account number XXXXXXXX5188 by Henry Walther, all to Western Internet Specialty Group as payments to PJ and Michael Swink for the mass mailing of fraudulent lottery letters;

b.   The two checks described in counts 14 and 18 of the indictment were written on Citibank account number XXXXXXXX4884 by Henry Walther as payments to Herb Madsen, who also performed mass mailings of fraudulent lottery letters for the co-schemers;

c.   The check described in count 15 of the indictment was written on Citibank account number XXXXXXXX4990 by Scott Walther to Jenill Nettleton for her services as an employee of Henry Walther, who handled banking for the co-schemers;

d.   The check described in count 19 of the indictment was written on Georgia State Bank account number XXX6927 by William Cloud to Astro Computer Service for Glenda Emmett for mailing of fraudulent lottery letters and computer services relating to victim lists;

e.   The check described in count 20 of the indictment was written on Bank of America account number XXXXXX3386 by Henry Walther to James Elliott for mailing and printing of fraudulent lottery letters;

f.   The check described in count 21 of the indictment was written on Georgia State Bank account number XXX6927 by Wiliiam Cloud to Picasso Press for printing of fraudulent lottery documents;

g.   The check described in count 22 of the indictment was written on US Bank account number XXXXXXXX5188 by Henry Walther to Wits End Delivery Service for the service that took the mail from PJ and Michael Swink's establishment to larger cities for mailing, at the direction of VLEISIDES.

Search Warrant Evidence

26. On July 6, 2006, several search warrants were executed at addresses in California, Georgia, and Missouri. The searches yielded the following evidence, as well as other information:

a. A computer belonging to co-schemer Scott Walther contained documents and emails involving the scheme. The emails were between VLEISIDES and co-schemer Henry Walther and Scott Walther. Some of the emails were addressed to "Sonny" with an email of Sonny@atlasinformaticos.com (identified as VLEISIDES' email address by other participants in the scheme, while others were addressed to "Sonny Vleisides" with the same email address. Specific examples of documents and emails are as follows:

i. A word processing document stating: This is a fraud that has been going on for many years. Millions of dollars have been stolen from people that cannot afford it. The mailings originate from Little Rock, AR-cancelled at 722. The mail then goes to . . . Amsterdam in the Netherlands. From there it is sent by DHL to . . . Costa Rica. Atlas Informaticos to be held for pick up at the DHL office... The master mind behind this scam is James Ray Houston apx. 60 years old. He gained fame in 1974 when he ran for Governor in Nevada. His accomplice is Sonny Vleisides apx. 30 years old. Both from Kansas City originally .... However, these guys are very slick and try very hard not put their names on anything. A Russian by the name of Mikhstl Larguine has been used as Houston's front man for most of the 10 years plus that Houston has been in Costa Rica. Houston has used many aliases over the years. Rex Rogers was the longest lasting

ii.   An email dated November 1, 2002, from Henry Walther to Sonny at an email address of sonny@atlasinformaticos.com with a "cc" to Scott Walther, shows a thread of discussion regarding establishing a new bank account and company offshore since accounts were being closed in the United States. At one point Henry Walther asks VLEISIDES "What goals do you want to accomplish by getting the accounts offshore. I think it is to keep the account from being shut down by the US banking system. Any other goals?" VLEISIDES responds saying "The only objective is to have an account with less vulnerability from any US authority. Also depending on how the account works for the Mexican bank-it may be more difficult for the bank to deal with canceling an account that's co-mingled with all their other accounts in the US-because it's all really just one account to them." In an earlier thread, Henry Walther had written: "Dear Sonny: Today Scott set up a new EU American Payment Services account at Union Bank. I will get the information to you tomorrow, but since PJ [Swink, a participant in the scheme, as described above] has Scott's facsimile signature and also the Union Bank has been handling the North American account, it should be easy to set up once she has the account number."

iii.   On February 13, 2003, an email was sent from VLEISIDES with an email of sonny@atlasinformaticos.com to Henry Walther that read, "Here they are: 1. $7,500- Rex 2. 7,945- Atlas (Cuscatlan) 3. $4,723- Servicios 4. Legal." The response to the above email was on February 14, 2003, and read: "Dear Sonny: These wires are all out today. Hank."

iv. On March 31, 2003, an email was sent from Henry Walther to VLEISIDES, with an email address of sonnv@atlasinformaticos.com. It reads, "Dear Sonny: Scott and I were in Mexico again today trying to finish the accounts." This email also mentioned that "Funds had to be again advanced from WEF cover."

b. A search of the office of Henry Walther, yielded evidence such as the following:

i.   Printouts of regular emails from and to "Sonny Vleisides:sonny@atlasinformaticos.com" from Henry Walther and Scott Walther were found for dates from 2004 through June 2006. Many of the emails listed what appeared to be daily account balances for lottery accounts. Accounts included "Shamrock Agency, WEF, Mutual Medical, Old Amsterdam, "NA-U", "SA-U", and "FULL"

ii.   In addition to the account balances were notes giving Henry Walther specific instructions regarding the accounts. For example, on July 26, 2003, VLEISIDES instructed Henry Walther to send money to Connie and Gabriel Vleisidies. Others were instructions or clarifications.

iii.   A blue folder labeled "Outgoing Wire Transfer Forms" from the Henry W Walther Wire Account, containing four paper-clipped piles of copies. A memo was attached to each pile which read "Dennis Pile" "Sonny's Forms", "Bill Pile" and "Rex Pile."

iv.   A printout of an email dated March 24, 2002, from Rex Rogers with an email address of rex@ lfcitv.com to Henry Walther. The email read, "Here are the instructions to send to Mike's account through the Florida bank agency. Keep this because .. . this is where I need the funds wired when you them. I need three separate accounts with different account names . . . do not use German Swiss." The email then listed account information for the sub account name Mikhail Larguine.

v.   A printout of an email dated June 16, 2006, from VLEISIDES with an email address of sonnv(g>atlasinformaticos.com to Henry Walther and Scott Walther. The email states "There is $52,875.74 in these two packages. Next week should be about the same, then a lower and then a really healthy surge. Package #1, DATE SEND: 6/16/06, TRACKING NUMBER: FEDEX 8571-4757-6950, 460 checks - $25,487.52 PACKAGE#2, DATE SEND" 6/16/06, TRACKING NUMBER: FEDEX 8571-4756-6949, 560 checks - $27,388.22. S".

vi.   A second email dated June 23, 2006, with the same information above but listing three different packages with FEDEX tracking numbers for a total of 955 checks totaling $52,442.31.

c. At an address in Georgia that was under the control of co-schemer William Cloud through a woman named Mary McRae, relevant evidence including the following was found:

i.   Thousands of credit card "Mail Order Forms" that listed names and credit card numbers. On the bottom of many of the forms was "Euro American."

ii.   Western Union receipts for money wired by McRae, in Georgia, USA, to "Sonny Velisides" in Costa Rica. The dates and amounts were as follows: August 11, 2004 - $2200, August 5, 2004 - $1200, July 9, 2004 - $3300, July 2, 2004 - $2000, and June 24, 2004 - $2000.

iii.   A DHL package dated August 26, 2004, sent from Atlas Informaticos in Costa Rica to Mary Mcrae. Inside the package were numerous completed "Mail Order Request Forms" containing authorizations to charge credit cards. Included on the forms was a list of names, amounts, and credit card numbers. The bottom of the slip states "This charge will appear on your bill as: EURO AMERICAN." These forms were banded in eleven separate piles that were totaled with memo notes attached. The notes had totals and batch dates in addition to phrases like "WEF [World Expert Fund] Amsterdam" and "WEF New York."

iv.   A DHL package dated September 21, 2004, sent from Atlas Informaticos in Costa Rica to Mary Mcrae. Inside the package were numerous completed "Mail Order Request Forms" containing authorizations to charge credit cards. Included on the forms is a list of names, amounts, and credit card numbers. The bottom of the slip states "This charge will appear on your bill as: EURO AMERICAN." These forms were banded in eight separate piles that were totaled with memo notes attached. The notes had totals and batch dates in addition to phrases like "WEF Amsterdam."

d. At a facility located in Missouri, which was under the control of PJ and Michael Swink, who participated in the scheme, as further described below, evidence such as the following was found:

i.   Printouts of instructions for how to print and prepare solicitations for mailing. These instructions had titles including "Irish Sweepstakes", "El G Payout", "Bundershmidt", "Medical Dividends Payout" and "RL Doorne."

ii.   Printouts of two emails dated July 26, 2003, from sonny@atlasinformaticos.com to PJ. These emails were requests to send checks to Connie Vleisides, and Gabriele Vleisides, both in Kansas City, Missouri.

iii.   An email dated June 21, 2001, to "rexx. Et al" with an email address of rex@lfcitv.org from William C with an email address of williamc@lfcitv.com. The email states "Here are two set's addresses that will rotate every 6 weeks." The addresses were all in Amsterdam and appeared to be mail drops in Amsterdam from William Cloud.

iv.   Solicitations to thousands of individuals all over the United States that had been prepared and were ready to be mailed. These solicitations were in various stages of completion. Samples were taken of the solicitations. They had names including Irish Sweepstakes , El Gordo Lottery, and Old Amsterdam Trust.

27.   SONNY VLEISIDES is a United States citizen born on February 21, 1971, in Las Vegas, Nevada. He is a white male, who is 1.8 meters tali and was last known to weigh approximately 70 kilograms. He has black hair and hazel eyes. He was issued a United States passport, number 701797046, on May 23, 1989, in New Orleans, Louisiana. A photograph of VLEISIDES is attached as Exhibit 1 to my affidavit.

28.   Henry Walther has identified the photograph attached as Exhibit 1 to this affidavit as being a photograph of the same SONNY VLEISIDES who ran the fraudulent lottery scheme discussed in this affidavit.

/s/
Timothy Nugent, Special Agent
Internal Revenue Service -
Criminal Investigations Division

Subscribed to and sworn before me this 9 day of May, 2007

/s/
HONORABLE SUZANNE H. SEGAL
United States Magistrate Judge

It does seem that the thrill of ripping people off really has an impact on a fraction of people.  To the extent that they will sometimes even be willing to take a loss in order to do it!  Thankfully it seems like a fairly small minority of people are in this category.  A minority of the general public anyway...not necessarily of those in the Bitcoin community...

I'm not sure if there is a recognized fraud like one poster claimed as being one where smaller items are delivered to develop confidence for the big kill.  Probably I suppose, and I've no doubt that it happens, but it seems to me that it would be awfully difficult to prove.  It is a fairly legitimate business strategy to leverage all financial resources one can muster in order to meet the various demands required to achieve fulfillment (and it's probably not a competitive strategy to do otherwise.)  And delays happen.  Nor is there an obligation on BFL's part to disclose the minutia of their operations.  So, as long as the big iron was so much as a theoretical possibility there is an argument to be made that they were/are acting in good faith.  If people send them money this in and of itself implies that the customers had done as much due diligence as the customer required.

Nice people Sonny associates with.

Googling World Expert Fund presents some very sad stories of the people Sonny ripped off. They targeted vulnerable people clearly. Quite disturbing.

I look forward to viewing a public discussion about this. I hope he can be honest. The initial disclosure here is not.

Well Inaba, do you have team that helps you shovel the truck load of bullshit you deliver ?

Glad I've found this thread. I am in the process of moving a considerable amount of money from USD to BTC, which, due to all the restrictions, will take a few weeks (About a month at least. I hate our fiat system). That BTC's intended destination is BFL. I guess they have a few weeks to reassure me.

Though the obnoxious trolls aren't helping any, either. (I believe "shilling" does not involve outright disclosures that one is representing another for money)

I imagine it will take ages especially going in the opposite direction in your sig.

This thread is a rollercoaster, I feel sick.

Indeed, Inaba has shifted from a shill to part of the con.

This was his previous argument against them being a con - I trust them and do business with them.
Now its - I trust this convicted con man and work for him, not an improvement.

Huh. Totally forgot about that sig. But nah, Dwolla has a $5,000 limit, and takes a whole damn week thanks to not working on weekends. Do the math.
(Now I just need the feds to come down on me for attempting to circumvent reporting a large transfer by making multiple below-$10k transfers  ::))

I found it through the SA forum.  Although the thing is quite a remarkable amalgamation of group-think, envy, ignorance, and confusion, they do turn up some interesting things on this forum from time to time.  Unfortunately one has to wade through lots of posts about the fire danger of mining rigs and several other themes which are repeated ad-nauseum by people who clearly have not done a damn thing in life and thus have a noticeable hatred for those few people who have.

Ok I will try.

Considerable amount, Divided by 5000
Equals.....I fail.

Too good not to lol.

My work here is done.  Fraud sniffer put to rest for the time being.

I trust you fine people can keep the energy level high.  Send up the crazy-pressure-cooker-mofo signal if you need to crack any more hardcases.

Has anyone sent Micon a notice to start a new thread on "BRIAN MICON'S LIST OF BIGGEST ASIC SCAMMERS" yet?

I'll submit my questions for the "town hall" now.

1. Is Sonny Vleisides the BFL employee who signs his emails "Sonny K?" Why the K? Is he intentionally trying to conceal his identity even more than just using V?

2. Did Sonny Vleisides found the company or is he merely an employee? The following quote makes it sounds like he is simply one minor employee:

3. To be clear, is that employee with the "colorful background" Sonny Vleisides? If so, I am not sure "offshore libertarianism" is a fitting euphemism for the crime for which he was convicted. The victim statements in the affidavit posted by blakdawg (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=109349.msg1205726#msg1205726) are incredibly depressing.

4. Of those 22 employees, are any of their names: James Ray Houston, Rex Rogers, Dennis Emmett, William Cloud, Henry Walther, Scott Henry Walther, PJ Swink, or Michael Swink?

I've made a Q&A thread, I hope the outline is acceptable.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=110786.msg1206136#msg1206136

I'll lock this since it has served it's purchase and the original subject was wrong anyway.

Ooo Oooo Oooo the power is gushing through my veins!