Bitcoin Forum

Hello everyone.

The batch #1 shipment is nearing completion, although some kind of late. The batch #2 shipment will be started soon after a small pause and summary work.

It will take some time for us to summarize the problems encountered in the batch #1 production and shipment, in order to improve the crafts, design and production efficiency
 of batch #2 units.

 Our usual strategy of "ship one batch and then pre-order another batch" will not change this time. I announce here that the pre-order of batch #3 will be open some time near this Friday.

Some details about this batch are as following, with some differences to the previous 2.

 1, Bank transfer(RMB, Chinese Yuan) with manual confirmation will be only accept in Chian mainland, otherwise BTC has to be used.
 2, The pricing will not in USD any more, but in BTC. RMB price is based on the rate 1:360(1 BTC = 360 RMB)
 3, The price will be obviously much higher than previous, based on the reasonable ROI. The price is 88 BTC to 115 BTC(31680 RMB to 41400 RMB) depending on configurations, freight charge not included.
 4, Expected shipment time is late April to early May.
 4, Trad-in clients take priority.
 6, No free delivery.
 7, Ship order is the confirmation order (not the payment order). Big orders will be splitted reasonably.
 8, No-PSU option is available this time, 600 RMB discount will be applied. A list of compatibile PSUs will be provided at the time.
 9, We provide 3-module(~67 GH, 64 GH guaranteed) and 4-module(~89 GH, 85 GH guaranteed) options.
 10, No refund.

 The batch #3 will be mainly on our official website. You can contact me via email(ngzhang@avalon-asic.com) if you want to order 50 units and more.
 Notice, this is only for the sake of convenience, no precedence of shipment and discont for big orders.

 By the way, something about Avalon ASIC and the batch #2 shimpent:
 1, After-sales service： We have no service department by now. We will asign staff to deal with domestic rework(repairing) later on. A halt of ASIC is intolerable for mainers, so we think a complete production maintenance guide is much better than slow rework. Usually ordinary people can fix it immediately himself with the guide in case of problems. We will get start to improve and complete the production documents and prepare spare parts(controllers, cables, modules, etc) later on.
 2, Usage: There is well-designed air-duct in unit, so please keep it horizontal and closed, do not add extra fans. Pressure is needed to keep the cooling of PSU. By the way, please try to keep front space cool, the lower temperature the better stability, although we've tested the device in 35℃ envionment. The hardware error issue is discussed here especially. It is designed to be: the chips do not stop hashing while communicating. The number of gates is reduced about 1% by this design, but possibility of data error is also introduced. This kind of hardware error is kept below a thousandth and does not affect the hashing efficiency.
 3, The shipment time of batch #2: Our team needs a vacation after months of day-and-night hard work, and we need time to summarize previous work, deal with issues and prepare the improvement of the future work. Further more, it takes time to produce the large amount of improved parts. So, the shipment of #2 will be delayed. Only a small amount of units will be shipped during late March to early April, but we will ship the batch #2 units in a super fast speed during middle Apirl to the end of Apirl.
 4, The not-recieved batch #1 units: There are information errors in our database(unclear addresses, garbage characters, lack of phone numbers, no PO-BOX, etc). We will send you emails(do not send us emails) to confirm the information. If you either recieve an email nor a unit, it is probably due to slow delivery or late payment(pay in November, etc). The last few orders will be shipped in the following days, please be patient.
 5, The device you purchased has no technical support included.
 

http://bbs.btcman.com/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=1550&extra=page%3D1
各位好，

虽然晚了一段时间，Avalon ASIC第一批的发货工作已经到了尾声。在一个短暂的收尾和总结后，第二批订单的发货即将开始。

下一阶段我们会用一些时间来总结第一批Avalon ASIC生产、制造、发货过程中遇到的问题，在第二批的制造过程中进行小幅度的工艺改进和设计变更，提高生产效率。

我们一直采取发货一批，订货一批的销售策略，这次也不例外。因此我在此通知大家，第三批预定目前计划在本周五附近开始。
这次预定采取的形式与前两批有相同的地方也有不同的地方，简单罗列如下：

1，除中国国内提供人民币银行转账，人工确认的选项外，其他国家均只接受比特币支付。
2，售价不再与美元挂钩，将执行比特币定价的策略。人民币价格汇率为360人民币=1比特币。
3，价格会明显提高。新价格基于对于合理ROI的预期而制定。视不同配置，价格在88BTC至115BTC之间，不含运费。按照360人民币=1BTC的汇率，本次的人民币价格在31680至41400人民币之间，运费另计。
4，预计发货时间从4月底至5月初开始。
5，trade-in的客户会优先发货。
6，不免运费。
7，发货顺序基于付款顺序（而不是下订单的顺序），大单会被合理的分拆后发货。
8，提供不带电源的选项，优惠600元人民币。我们届时会提供一个可用电源列表。（提前通知：酷冷，台达，TT等“性价比高”的牌子均未通过测试）电源长度不能超过160mm。
9，提供3个module和4个module的选项。（（也就是典型速度67GH和89GH，保证速度为64GH和85GH）
10，不支持退款。

第三批的销售主要以官网销售为主，如果您有意下50台以上的订单，可以直接与我联系。请认准官方邮箱：

ngzhang@avalon-asic.com

注意，这里只是提供订货的方便，大单在发货顺序，价格等各方面均无任何优惠措施。

顺便讨论一些关于Avalon ASIC产品本身以及第二批发货的事情。
1，关于售后服务的问题：我们现在还没有建立专门的售后部门。但随着发货的继续，我们会很快有专人来处理国内的返修问题。对于矿工来说，矿机停止运行是不可容忍的事情，因此与其提供响应缓慢的送修服务，我们认为不如提供完整的维修指南和产品手册，在机器万一出现任何故障的时候，一般人即可自行修理并恢复运作。因此我们在下一段时间会着手建立完善和公开的产品文档，并提供各种备件（如控制器，线缆，模组等）。
2，关于机器使用方面的问题：机箱有良好的风道设计，因此请保持机器水平放置，关闭机箱，并且不要在后部的空位安装任何附加的风扇。机箱内需要保持压力来帮助电源散热。另外请尽可能保持机箱前面空气凉爽，虽然我们在温度为35度的环境下进行过测试，但是保持低温对于产品的稳定运行有很大的好处。这里特别提出关于大家所关心的Hardware Error的问题，这是有意的设计，芯片在进行通信时，不会停止运算，这样的设计芯片门数可以缩小大约1%，不过会存在返回一些错误数据的可能性。这一比例在千分之几这一量级，并且这些Hareware Error不会对实际的运行效率造成任何影响。
3，关于第二批发货的时间问题：在数个月的日以继夜的工作后。我们的团队需要休假，并且需要对第一批生产进行总结，处理和改进，并且等待这些改进后的部件大量的生产出来。因此我们会延后第二批开始发货的时间，因此在3月底到4月初，第二批的订单只会少量发货，但从4月中开始至月底我们计划以超高速迅速地完成第二批的发货。
4，关于第一批尚未收到的订单：我们的数据库中有一些客户的信息有误（如地址填写不明确，地址乱码，没有电话，PO BOX地址等），我们会向你（而不是你向我们）发出查询的邮件。如果您没有收到查询的邮件但是却没有收到货，那么可能是因为包裹已经在途或者您付款太晚（例如11月份），最后几个订单会在最近几天也陆续发出，请耐心等待。
5，您所购买的设备并不附带任何技术支持。

3，价格会明显提高。新价格基于对于合理ROI的预期而制定。视不同配置，价格在88BTC至115BTC之间，不含运费。按照360人民币=1BTC的汇率，本次的人民币价格在31680至41400人民币之间，运费另计。

thx, much better than google translator


there is already an update:



88BTC 3 modules no psu
113BTC 4 modules no psu

psu +2

there is already an update:

Quote
3，价格会明显提高。新价格基于对于合理ROI的预期而制定。视不同配置，价格在88BTC至115BTC之间，不含运费。按照360人民币=1BTC的汇率，本次的人民币价格在31680至41400人民币之间，运费另计。


price is about 88BTC-115BTC, 1BTC= 360RMB,SO the batch3# avalon price is 31680-41400 RMB (5000-6666 USD) .

Price seems pretty high.
Don't think they mentioned the total number of units they will be selling in batch #3... anyone know about it?

Price seems pretty high.
Don't think they mentioned the total number of units they will be selling in batch #3... anyone know about it?

how much is the hashing speed of this?

thanks

You can buy a BFL minirig for 500 btc, and delivery would probably be in the same timeframe.

it doesn't really matter, no one in their right mind is going to pay ~90+ btc for one unit.

You can buy a BFL minirig for 500 btc, and delivery would probably be in the same timeframe.

You can "buy" one, yes. But you are not going to get any ROI, because no working BFL ASIC hardware exists.
Avalon does exist and currently running units get an insane ROI.

A bit naive, don't you think? It's clear that BFL has been developing hardware..don't let their incompetence cloud your judgment. Anyway, we're not here to talk about BFL..this is an Avalon thread silly. ;)

Seriously though, people really don't have a problem paying $7,000 for a 600w+ 80GH/s device? I also find it kind of funny that the buyers from Batch #1 paid the lowest price and are making the highest return on their investment. The Batch #2 price hike was expected...it was kind of like the "Fuck you, we're legit and you missed out on the first round".

But to triple the price for Batch #3 sort of solidifies the initial notion that they are indeed using preorder funds to complete the previous orders (it also fully explains why they "shipped" 2 months ago and are still behind on their first shipment). I imagine after selling out of Batch #3 they'll have enough money to get everything back on track again (financially anyways).

A bit naive, don't you think? It's clear that BFL has been developing hardware..don't let their incompetence cloud your judgment. Anyway, we're not here to talk about BFL..this is an Avalon thread silly. ;)

Seriously though, people really don't have a problem paying $7,000 for a 600w+ 80GH/s device? I also find it kind of funny that the buyers from Batch #1 paid the lowest price and are making the highest return on their investment. The Batch #2 price hike was expected...it was kind of like the "Fuck you, we're legit and you missed out on the first round".

But to triple the price for Batch #3 sort of solidifies the initial notion that they are indeed using preorder funds to complete the previous orders (it also fully explains why they "shipped" 2 months ago and are still behind on their first shipment). I imagine after selling out of Batch #3 they'll have enough money to get everything back on track again (financially anyways).

600

how do you know this?
thanks

1.) Batch 2 was more expensive because shipping was included in the price. Batch 1 was $1299 + shipping.
2.) BFL won't ship anytime soon. You're welcome to prove me wrong. http://bitbet.us/bet/307/bfl-will-deliver-asic-devices-before-july-1st/
3.) Avalon could have mined themselves, and keep all the profit. Yet they are selling to the public. It's ludicrous to think that they would set up a ponzi like structure with their orders. Due to the insane ROI of Avalons, 88 BTC seems like a bargain still. 4.) I'd imagine Avalon customers are not newbies and have BTC beforehand way before the price spike. Batch 1 is actually more expensive than Batch 3 BTC wise.

/damn i though it will be 2000$ or something around it i think i will pass it  :'( :'(.

Hehe, we have to gambles now:

pay 90 btc for a unit you know exists, and that you will received sometime around June (and maybe sooner!)
pay 20 btc for a BFL unit you don't know if exists, and that they tell you that you will receive in July if ordered now (and most likely later!)

Both of them seems quite risky to me, but if I had enough coins bought cheap, I would take both ;)

you would still be better off buying 5 bfl units in the long term, even if it were another month or two delay.

Well, I thought I would jump into Avalon Batch three... but my jaw hit the floor when I saw the price. What the bloody hell?

Going all in on BFL seems like a better idea than this shit. $5k for a box that cost initally $1299. Someone decided they don't want customers.

You'd rather buy a box of fans than something that actually exists?

You'd rather buy a box of fans than something that actually exists?

You can "buy" one, yes. But you are not going to get any ROI, because no working BFL ASIC hardware exists.
Avalon does exist and currently running units get an insane ROI.

wow...five fucking grand? no....

Well shit. There goes that plan. Back to playing the waiting game to see if BFL delivers or if another vender releases a competitive product.

wow 88 coins for one, five grand ? :o their batch 2 is not even ship yet, heck even some of their batch 1 customer still have not receive their unit.  If we order now, we will not get it until 3 months later or more . By that time  Asicminer put up their 100 terahash and Avalon unit will make 0.5 coin a days, killing all ROI. 


If Avalon say they has one in stock ready to ship RIGHT NOW  , then it may be worth it. But we all know that WILL NOT happen

3 or MORE months to get one , totally not worth it

I agree with you. If they were ready to ship right now, it may be worth the 80+btc. But with an unknown wait time, and having to harass and plead to get any answers, and still not a tracking number for my batch one, no way.

I just cant justify the risk, and the cost of batch 3. Which sucks because I was heavily considering going "all in" and buying 10+ units.

At the current BTC value the price can be justified but I'm not so sure 3-4 months down the line. Good luck to those who buy, I'll be sitting this one out.

...
Asking for a price in btc, ok. Thats the idea of btc. Asking for a huge amount basing it on expected ROI is absurd. Bitcoin value could crash tomorrow.

Actually, asking for 88 BTC doesn't change the fact that you would make your 88 BTC back in a few months, given that there is no consumer based competition with a working product. If BTC price crashes, then the 88 BTC you mined with the device is just worth less.  

Now here's the real question, if BTC value goes down to $10 two days after they start accepting batch 3 preorders, are they going to honor the 88 BTC price, or have a sudden change of heart and start charging $1500 again? At some point, merchants are going to need to list their products in static BTC prices to stabilize the currency. I don't think that time is now, but you can't blame them for trying. A high static BTC price at this point is going to devalue BTC and possibly start driving the exchange rate down.

I still think they are going to sell out though, barring some really good news from BFL this week.

The only problem with your analysis is that for it to apply to me (or anyone else), you must have the 88 BTC.  If you use EU or USD to buy the 88 BTC, then the vol really does matter to the people and they have FX risk.

maybe that post is a fake, as i stated i see nothing on their site reflecting that forum post on the other forum OP posted.

for 5k you can get alot of FGPAs, maybe with their power usage it may even be realistic?

I really wish the BTC to crash hard just after Avalon starts taking order. We shall see what happens to their BTC 88 - 115 payment plan. Greedy bastards.

I really wish the BTC to crash hard just after Avalon starts taking order. We shall see what happens to their BTC 88 - 115 payment plan. Greedy bastards.

To say that things poor would be an understatement. Perhaps they will use some of that capital to hire staff? That would be interesting. Hopefully they will touch on that before the presage goes up.

How are they any more greedy than miners?  Based on this thread, miners themselves have no confidence in BTC and view it only as a means to earn USD.  

Bwahahaha, this the exact reason why I don't respect some of my potential customers, I don't even want money from these people. In afterthought, after raising the price it must stopped a lot people were purchasing because how brainless the profit was, now there is some math and faith involved.

Bwahahaha, this the exact reason why I don't respect some of my potential customers, I don't even want money from these people. In afterthought, raising the price it must stopped a lot people were purchasing because how brainless the profit was, now there is some math and faith involved.

Bwahahaha, this the exact reason why I don't respect some of my potential customers, I don't even want money from these people. In afterthought, raising the price it must stopped a lot people were purchasing because how brainless the profit was, now there is some math and faith involved.

Like I said, I really wish the BTC to crash once you have your ordering started - will see where your lecture goes.

Like I said, I really wish the BTC to crash once you have your ordering started - will see where your lecture goes.

Explains the communication regarding batch 1 shipping.

I assume that was the feeling.   Many are finding out what happens when you deal with a principled business person.   I was "really?" at first, but then after thinking about it, it didn't seem bad.   With a ROI of 6-12 months, you know they will keep the gear on the network for that time, keeps it just the much more secure.   Hope people are looking at other motives than just profits.

Haha, so much hate, what did you miss out on batch #1 and 2 or something? Willing to make a comment based on the negative outcome of Bitcoin as a whole just to get at me.

Come on. They are just pushing their profit to the maximum giving the circumstance that right now they have no competition, that's all. They even acknowledge that now ROI is not guaranteed, you need "math and faith". So the current pricing + the greed taking over will make them sell out the units, making a huge profit, while is quite possible (but not certain) that the batch #3 buyers will not even recoup their costs.

That said, I think they did a great move for themselves: they set the right price for people still buying the whole batch, in perfect correlation with the current exchange rate. If they priced the units let's say a 20% higher, maybe they would have a problem selling all the units.

/damn i though it will be 2000$ or something around it i think i will pass it  :'( :'(.

if we want to min-max, we wouldn't sell in the first place.

the math is made on a one month ROI when diff is 10,000,000. very basic.

Come on. They are just pushing their profit to the maximum giving the circumstance that right now they have no competition, that's all. They even acknowledge that now ROI is not guaranteed, you need "math and faith". So the current pricing + the greed taking over will make them sell out the units, making a huge profit, while is quite possible (but not certain) that the batch #3 buyers will not even recoup their costs.

That said, I think they did a great move for themselves: they set the right price for people still buying the whole batch, in perfect correlation with the current exchange rate. If they priced the units let's say a 20% higher, maybe they would have a problem selling all the units.

Has Avalon sent a really nice fruit basket to Butterfly Labs to thank them for allowing them to be able to extract these rents from the market?   Do not get me wrong, I completely agree with what Avalon is doing as it makes perfect sense (and actually may make this a more orderly business as people will have to think for a minute before pulling the trigger).

Buy Bitcoins because they are going nowhere but UP as people will need to buy more than they expected.

I do not hate you. I do not even know you. I am a new comer in BTC market, and certainly was prepping my investment based on previous batch prices, so I expected something in $1800 range. I do not have BTC mined from earlier, so purchasing BTC with usd at 64+ is out of my capacity.

With the strategy change from accepting USD to BTC, potential customers and newcomers like me are screwed, without any hope to get into mining, since other than ASIC every other h/w is outdated.

The strategy of taking BTC is making sure, the people who bought batch 1 or 2 will keep on buying with the produced BTC (or the old time miners), and does not welcome new comers. Are you expanding the market with that ?

To be fair, why don't you give both choice of paying in BTC, or equivalent in USD ? Then there would be a fair chance. It is extremely hard to collect USD and then convert to BTC. Does that make sense ?

What I have been saying is purely my feeling as a new entrant in the market, who feels that he is out of option, just because this pay with BTC thing.

Again, I do not have anything personal with you or anyone at Avalon, so please do not take in that way.

Don't get me wrong, I respect what you did. You are legit, and you did an excellent job. I just don't think that difficulty will be 10,000,000 when the batch #3 units will reach the customers. Two questions:

- can you guarantee batch #3 delivery not later than May?
- wouldn't the difficulty reach at least 15,000,000 once all your 1,500 units are deployed? Wouldn't be much higher if ASICminer/BFL customers also start deploying more units?

I think once you stop thinking in USD the escape velocity will come. Why should we sell some hardware that will break even in a few days for $1800 while bitcoin continue to raise? Bitcoin mining should not be a small investment, nor it should be a quick way to make money, for network security purposes the ROI for these things should be AT LEAST 1 month based on a diff projection.

All Avalon is doing is giving people a chance to take up this investment based on a projection of 10,000,000 diff in May-June with a 1 month ROI time frame.

That's fine - it is a business decision. Please consider attaching a USD price as well, and give an option to pay with USD - that will enable people to buy the unit who do not have enough BTC

I assume that was the feeling. Many are finding out what happens when you deal with a principled business person.  

With a ROI of 6-12 months, you know they will keep the gear on the network for that time, keeps it just the much more secure.  

Hope people are looking at other motives than just profits.

- Yes, but I think this question can be answered based on how fast we ship batch #2.
- not really, the current diff already includes majority of batch #1's hashing power. but I also don't believe diff will only be 10,000,000 but like I said, it should take at least 1 month of ROI, realistically best case 1 month, regular projection of 3 month, which is about diff 30,000,000 which is more reasonable if BFL ships.

Oh also, expect a newsletter soon.

The funny thing is, alot of people will still buy.

I would not be surprised if a ton of Batch #1 customers start selling theirs. I know I am considering selling mine. One Ebay user is getting his sold for 15k....and he/she still doesn't have it in their hands.

I am going to guess the jump in price is a tremendous investment in the next process node they are aiming for. From the looks of it, they may well skip 90nm. (Pure speculation though)

---------------------

What is more interesting than anything else is what they intend to put out with respect to Gen 2 modules. Perhaps the same configuration but higher density chips I am hoping.

Are they still using the "Greater than 66Gh/s" language on their order page?

I will save BTC for your generation #2 first batch from now on ;)

or you can 4 unit for 240 GH of power for the same price of one avalon

Come on. They are just pushing their profit to the maximum giving the circumstance that right now they have no competition, that's all. They even acknowledge that now ROI is not guaranteed, you need "math and faith". So the current pricing + the greed taking over will make them sell out the units, making a huge profit, while is quite possible (but not certain) that the batch #3 buyers will not even recoup their costs.

That said, I think they did a great move for themselves: they set the right price for people still buying the whole batch, in perfect correlation with the current exchange rate. If they priced the units let's say a 20% higher, maybe they would have a problem selling all the units.

I just think your not putting yourself in their shoes.  For the timetable they are delivering and BFL not giving guidance, it is correctly priced for the time being.   You need to look long term and think about why you are purchasing these units.   Am I tantalized about the prospects of getting a great ROI, of course but I am also prepare to run these units over 1-2 years+ if I need too and then upgrade to Gen2+.

I believe Avalon will at at this for a while and I know they have tricks up their sleeves so in the end you need to ask yourself, do you trust BitSyncom/Avalon, their intentions and principles or not?   Yes, like any one else, they could choose to totally screw us over but that is the risk you have to bear or not.   At the point, it doesn't matter to me, I have made my decision and we will see how my faith placed in their company will pan out.  I feel I have made the right choice and continuing to support them will be the right choice for me.  If I am wrong, I will be the first to admit it as well and learn.

we discussed batch3 price for a long time.

personally, i do think this is a reasonable price.

batch#1: 1300USD + your trust,  batch#2: 1500USD + your trust, batch#3 = ?

why batch 1 and batch2 customers will enjoy such a low USD price and extremly high profit? because they put their valuable trust on us.

last September, most of you think we have little chance to win, or could be a crappy scam, you don't buy.

this January, considerable people think we take Jeff down or just spent 400K to make a prototype, you don't buy.

now, everything on track, machines delivered to your hands are only a matter of time. you want to buy them at a same price or something like 2000USD.

OK, please tell me, what is the price of people most valuable things "trust" should be? 500USD? no, 5000USD at least.

as a core developer, i look upon all Avalons as my son. i will send them to who believe us, not the faithless or buzzard.

we discussed batch3 price for a long time.

personally, i do think this is a reasonable price.

batch#1: 1300USD + your trust,  batch#2: 1500USD + your trust, batch#3 = ?

why batch 1 and batch2 customers will enjoy such a low USD price and extremly high profit? because they put their valuable trust on us.

last September, most of you think we have little chance to win, or could be a crappy scam, you don't buy.

this January, considerable people think we take Jeff down or just spent 400K to make a prototype, you don't buy.

now, everything on track, machines delivered to your hands are only a matter of time. you want to buy them at a same price or something like 2000USD.

OK, please tell me, what is the price of people most valuable things "trust" should be? 500USD? no, 5000USD at least.

as a core developer, i look upon all Avalons as my son. i will send them to who believe us, not the faithless or buzzard.

Double the price is reasonable, 4+ times the "price" with another indefinite wait is absurd. Especially considering the hiccups and the delays and the general stonewalling of the people ( like me ) who ordered batch1 and batch 2 and still have nothing but a few emails and promises of "its shipped".

If you want to sell them for 100btc and you have them in stock and are shipping the next day and guarantee delivery in a week, yeah maybe the price works for the profiteers.

If you want 100 btc and you jerk everyone around like the last 2 orders, ignore the users asking for very little information and don't maintain a delivery schedule, it not going to happen. People are going to go to BFL, get their SC or minirig in the same time frame and have smaller more efficient devices.

Avalon has a niche, exploit it a little, don't go raping people. The guys who are buying them mostly are people like me, not profiteers, we are hobbyists. I'm not rich. I'm a poor college researcher like you.

Dr Zhang you've always been a straight shooter and very knowledgeable. You guys deserve a profit. If you need a huge profit then just publically mine with half a batch and make your money there and sell the other half. Limit orders to one per person and premine the units for a week or whatever then ship them off. But demanding a ridiculous cost in btc up front with vague delivery and distant support is not what I've come to expect from team avalon.

Speaking of security, since when is vastly raising the bar to entry better for the network in the long run? Instead of thousands of people saving their pennies to make a purchase, Avalon is instead tailoring to a hundred customers who have substantial amounts of cash lying around. This sort of circles back to my comment on their "business skills"...

this January, considerable people think we take Jeff down or just spent 400K to make a prototype, you don't buy.

now, everything on track, machines delivered to your hands are only a matter of time. you want to buy them at a same price or something like 2000USD.

we discussed batch3 price for a long time.

personally, i do think this is a reasonable price.

batch#1: 1300USD + your trust,  batch#2: 1500USD + your trust, batch#3 = ?

why batch 1 and batch2 customers will enjoy such a low USD price and extremly high profit? because they put their valuable trust on us.

last September, most of you think we have little chance to win, or could be a crappy scam, you don't buy.

this January, considerable people think we take Jeff down or just spent 400K to make a prototype, you don't buy.

now, everything on track, machines delivered to your hands are only a matter of time. you want to buy them at a same price or something like 2000USD.

OK, please tell me, what is the price of people most valuable things "trust" should be? 500USD? no, 5000USD at least.

as a core developer, i look upon all Avalons as my son. i will send them to who believe us, not the faithless or buzzard.

Hopefully by then there will be more competition or the network hashrate is a lot higher so we won't be forced to come up with these ridiculous numbers.

Double the price is reasonable, 4+ times the "price" with another indefinite wait is absurd. Especially considering the hiccups and the delays and the general stonewalling of the people ( like me ) who ordered batch1 and batch 2 and still have nothing but a few emails and promises of "its shipped".

If you want to sell them for 100btc and you have them in stock and are shipping the next day and guarantee delivery in a week, yeah maybe the price works for the profiteers.

If you want 100 btc and you jerk everyone around like the last 2 orders, ignore the users asking for very little information and don't maintain a delivery schedule, it not going to happen. People are going to go to BFL, get their SC or minirig in the same time frame and have smaller more efficient devices.

Avalon has a niche, exploit it a little, don't go raping people. The guys who are buying them mostly are people like me, not profiteers, we are hobbyists. I'm not rich. I'm a poor college researcher like you.

Dr Zhang you've always been a straight shooter and very knowledgeable. You guys deserve a profit. If you need a huge profit then just publically mine with half a batch and make your money there and sell the other half. Limit orders to one per person and premine the units for a week or whatever then ship them off. But demanding a ridiculous cost in btc up front with vague delivery and distant support is not what I've come to expect from team avalon.

You of course can set whichever price you want, as it a simple question of supply and demand.

That said, please at least keep the fact straight:
1) batch #2 ran out before most of people could order, and thanks to problems in the process, many of us could not get in.
2) as you not willing to lower the declared value, only the VAT will kill the deal for most of us. In my case it's more than costs of previous batches.
3) as there is no delivery guarantee, we basically don't have any indication of ROI.

All of this makes this preposition actually more riskier for us then Batch 1 and 2 buyers.

Batch 2 second wave was available for whole day i repeat one day to be ordered

Quite incorrect - and a quick look over relevant forum boards illustrates it clearly.

In my case specifically, the link in newsletter lead to "out of stock" on the morning already, and I only found out afternoon that sale was re-opened and gone again.

So call it as it is - a firesale that only those who frequent these boards managed to get it, far from all people who were actually interested in buying Batch 2.

Dude,
I ordered mine at noon i remember it clearly. A friend of mine ordered about 12 PM so please excuse me it was not available for a whole day but at least for 12+ hours. I am talking for the reopening of second batch 1 week later after the initial fiasco probably you missed this out ?
 

You understand that on a high traffic website, there are lots of factors, right ? Since you and your friend could order, does not mean everyone could.

Stop with all of this bs please...
Thank you @ the Avalon team for the magic you have done. You deserve what your future earnings.

As NG stated many times all off topic (in fact it is on topic) is welcomed what is your problem after all?

Dude,
I ordered mine at noon i remember it clearly. A friend of mine ordered about 12 PM so please excuse me it was not available for a whole day but at least for 12+ hours i am talking for the reopening of second batch 1 week later after the initial fiasco probably you missed this out ?

Double the price is reasonable, 4+ times the "price" with another indefinite wait is absurd. Especially considering the hiccups and the delays and the general stonewalling of the people ( like me ) who ordered batch1 and batch 2 and still have nothing but a few emails and promises of "its shipped".

If you want to sell them for 100btc and you have them in stock and are shipping the next day and guarantee delivery in a week, yeah maybe the price works for the profiteers.

If you want 100 btc and you jerk everyone around like the last 2 orders, ignore the users asking for very little information and don't maintain a delivery schedule, it not going to happen. People are going to go to BFL, get their SC or minirig in the same time frame and have smaller more efficient devices.

Avalon has a niche, exploit it a little, don't go raping people. The guys who are buying them mostly are people like me, not profiteers, we are hobbyists. I'm not rich. I'm a poor college researcher like you.

Dr Zhang you've always been a straight shooter and very knowledgeable. You guys deserve a profit. If you need a huge profit then just publically mine with half a batch and make your money there and sell the other half. Limit orders to one per person and premine the units for a week or whatever then ship them off. But demanding a ridiculous cost in btc up front with vague delivery and distant support is not what I've come to expect from team avalon.

Some of us still have a daily job / business to run and commitments, despite the entire BTC craze, and cannot spend the whole day checking the site.

12 hours window reminds me more a Black Friday rush, then an equal opportunity to anyone willing to put their coins into early product.

Anyhow, this discussion is moot as Avalon can and will charge whatever they want, so I wish luck to all current and future ASIC miners – in the end you only make the market stronger.

If I do decide to get an ASIC, I might just order one through BFL even though I am fully aware they may never ship, still a lower risk to me than dropping $5k as I can afford to lose a grand and I'm not interested in insane ROI.

You shouldn't feed the troll, he only wants to troll. He is shouting sentences without any meaning in hope to fell the avalon team guilty and lower their prices because he can't afford it. This is the way I read it and this is why I asked you to stop.

Feel free to continue anyway, its funny.

what a pitty.... missed batch #2 because I was unable to get my money converted to BTC fast enough and now when I did read about batch #3 on monday I went on and bought BTC but only calculated with 1599$ like it was for batch #2 -.-

I completly understand the position of Avalon team, but the risk for the customers is a bit too high for me now. (But I'm looking for joint ventures if anyone is interested...)

Pretty outrageous stuff.

As I mentioned in neighboring threads, I'm willing to pool on this with someone to share the risks, PM me if interested.

There is a saying "It is FAR easier to criticize than to create".
From reading the posts of the two people that have created the avalon (a HUGE success considering those who have failed and those we seemed to have failed), it sounds like they are more than a little tired a people who stand to get rich from their creation, constantly complaining about what is fair.
If I had worked 16 hour days for the last 4 months and constantly had to put out fires to get this thing to market, I think I would be sick and tired of hearing all the bickering from people just thinking about themselves.
Maybe everyone should step back and admire what they have accomplished and congratulate them for it.
I for one am amazed they are working this hard for OTHERS benefit (their personal gain is not that much when you consider all the hassle and the costs).
My hat is off to both of them.

Double the price is reasonable, 4+ times the "price" with another indefinite wait is absurd. Especially considering the hiccups and the delays and the general stonewalling of the people ( like me ) who ordered batch1 and batch 2 and still have nothing but a few emails and promises of "its shipped".

If you want to sell them for 100btc and you have them in stock and are shipping the next day and guarantee delivery in a week, yeah maybe the price works for the profiteers.

If you want 100 btc and you jerk everyone around like the last 2 orders, ignore the users asking for very little information and don't maintain a delivery schedule, it not going to happen. People are going to go to BFL, get their SC or minirig in the same time frame and have smaller more efficient devices.

Avalon has a niche, exploit it a little, don't go raping people. The guys who are buying them mostly are people like me, not profiteers, we are hobbyists. I'm not rich. I'm a poor college researcher like you.

Dr Zhang you've always been a straight shooter and very knowledgeable. You guys deserve a profit. If you need a huge profit then just publically mine with half a batch and make your money there and sell the other half. Limit orders to one per person and premine the units for a week or whatever then ship them off. But demanding a ridiculous cost in btc up front with vague delivery and distant support is not what I've come to expect from team avalon.

OK, please tell me, what is the price of people most valuable things "trust" should be? 500USD? no, 5000USD at least.

very well said

like I said earlier,  88 coin and unit in stock READY to ship = fair deal

five grand and who know when will you get a shipping tracking number will not gonna fly

I can only +1 this.

You no accept card or paypal, you no trust, you create demand for bitcoins, push price higher. Bitcoin payment need trust. We use other payment now? Or you still no trust?

The guy registered today and has offered twice already to partner with buying or housing avalon units. It's 99.9% a scammer. I've said it.

As a vendor, I don't trust Paypal. And I've had many bad experiences with credit card companies where I always ended up holding the short stick

If I could do my entire business by receiving BTC only, I would surely sleep a lot better at night

As for driving up the price of BTC, I can only salute the Avalon team on a job well done. I've crossed the point where I stopped wondering about the equivalent value in EUR, I just look at how much BTC I spent on Avalon hardware and I am calculating forward to where I am breaking even, recouping all my BTC and start generating new BTC thus adding value to this community

The underlying USD and EUR world is no long relevant

we discussed batch3 price for a long time.

personally, i do think this is a reasonable price.

batch#1: 1300USD + your trust,  batch#2: 1500USD + your trust, batch#3 = ?

why batch 1 and batch2 customers will enjoy such a low USD price and extremly high profit? because they put their valuable trust on us.

last September, most of you think we have little chance to win, or could be a crappy scam, you don't buy.

this January, considerable people think we take Jeff down or just spent 400K to make a prototype, you don't buy.

now, everything on track, machines delivered to your hands are only a matter of time. you want to buy them at a same price or something like 2000USD.

OK, please tell me, what is the price of people most valuable things "trust" should be? 500USD? no, 5000USD at least.

as a core developer, i look upon all Avalons as my son. i will send them to who believe us, not the faithless or buzzard.

The price is fair and the people who believe and are in it for the long term (which is what we NEED) will buy.  This will push the "flippers" out.   I actually think this is a good development.

I think once you stop thinking in USD the escape velocity will come. Why should we sell some hardware that will break even in a few days for $1800 while bitcoin continue to raise? Bitcoin mining should not be a small investment, nor it should be a quick way to make money, for network security purposes the ROI for these things should be AT LEAST 1 month based on a diff projection.

All Avalon is doing is giving people a chance to take up this investment based on a projection of 10,000,000 diff in May-June with a 1 month ROI time frame.



- Yes, but I think this question can be answered based on how fast we ship batch #2.
- not really, the current diff already includes majority of batch #1's hashing power. but I also don't believe diff will only be 10,000,000 but like I said, it should take at least 1 month of ROI, realistically best case 1 month, regular projection of 3 month, which is about diff 30,000,000 which is more reasonable if BFL ships.

Oh also, expect a newsletter soon.

Most of us think in BTC, and we're in BTC for the long run. But you will agree that:

a) more hashing power = greater difficulty = longer to b/e

b) if you have been in bitcoin for a short time, you did not buy a lot of coins cheap nor you mined a lot of btc when difficulty was lower. And with the current usd/btc exchange rate, buying btc to buy an Avalon is quite an investment/gamble.

c) if you are in btc only for the profit, given the surging exchange rate it may be wiser to simply buy btc and hold

we discussed batch3 price for a long time.

personally, i do think this is a reasonable price.

batch#1: 1300USD + your trust,  batch#2: 1500USD + your trust, batch#3 = ?

why batch 1 and batch2 customers will enjoy such a low USD price and extremly high profit? because they put their valuable trust on us.

last September, most of you think we have little chance to win, or could be a crappy scam, you don't buy.

this January, considerable people think we take Jeff down or just spent 400K to make a prototype, you don't buy.

now, everything on track, machines delivered to your hands are only a matter of time. you want to buy them at a same price or something like 2000USD.

OK, please tell me, what is the price of people most valuable things "trust" should be? 500USD? no, 5000USD at least.

as a core developer, i look upon all Avalons as my son. i will send them to who believe us, not the faithless or buzzard.

As a vendor, I don't trust Paypal. And I've had many bad experiences with credit card companies where I always ended up holding the short stick

If I could do my entire business by receiving BTC only, I would surely sleep a lot better at night

Well played Avalon.

we discussed batch3 price for a long time.

personally, i do think this is a reasonable price.

batch#1: 1300USD + your trust,  batch#2: 1500USD + your trust, batch#3 = ?

why batch 1 and batch2 customers will enjoy such a low USD price and extremly high profit? because they put their valuable trust on us.

last September, most of you think we have little chance to win, or could be a crappy scam, you don't buy.

this January, considerable people think we take Jeff down or just spent 400K to make a prototype, you don't buy.

now, everything on track, machines delivered to your hands are only a matter of time. you want to buy them at a same price or something like 2000USD.

OK, please tell me, what is the price of people most valuable things "trust" should be? 500USD? no, 5000USD at least.

as a core developer, i look upon all Avalons as my son. i will send them to who believe us, not the faithless or buzzard.

Ah folks, do the math - they don't want to sell, they will mine themselfs.

then they won't be able to sell out Batch 3.

we discussed batch3 price for a long time.

personally, i do think this is a reasonable price.

batch#1: 1300USD + your trust,  batch#2: 1500USD + your trust, batch#3 = ?

why batch 1 and batch2 customers will enjoy such a low USD price and extremly high profit? because they put their valuable trust on us.

last September, most of you think we have little chance to win, or could be a crappy scam, you don't buy.

this January, considerable people think we take Jeff down or just spent 400K to make a prototype, you don't buy.

now, everything on track, machines delivered to your hands are only a matter of time. you want to buy them at a same price or something like 2000USD.

OK, please tell me, what is the price of people most valuable things "trust" should be? 500USD? no, 5000USD at least.

as a core developer, i look upon all Avalons as my son. i will send them to who believe us, not the faithless or buzzard.

we discussed batch3 price for a long time.

personally, i do think this is a reasonable price.

batch#1: 1300USD + your trust,  batch#2: 1500USD + your trust, batch#3 = ?

why batch 1 and batch2 customers will enjoy such a low USD price and extremly high profit? because they put their valuable trust on us.

You keep missing your shipping deadlines.  You say you're going to ship in May, but how do we know you won't ship in say August because you decide you need another vacation?

88BTC 3 modules no psu

No offense  but I can't help feeling   you have turned around completely and are now driven solely  by monetary  gain.

>implying miners aren't themselves driven solely by monetary gain

They want ASICs right now "to secure the network", doncha know. 

[...] why would ASIC vendors sell a machine for $1500 that make 6-8k a month? I think this answers the question pretty clearly, They wouldn't!

we discussed batch3 price for a long time.

personally, i do think this is a reasonable price.

batch#1: 1300USD + your trust,  batch#2: 1500USD + your trust, batch#3 = ?

why batch 1 and batch2 customers will enjoy such a low USD price and extremly high profit? because they put their valuable trust on us.

last September, most of you think we have little chance to win, or could be a crappy scam, you don't buy.

this January, considerable people think we take Jeff down or just spent 400K to make a prototype, you don't buy.

now, everything on track, machines delivered to your hands are only a matter of time. you want to buy them at a same price or something like 2000USD.

OK, please tell me, what is the price of people most valuable things "trust" should be? 500USD? no, 5000USD at least.

as a core developer, i look upon all Avalons as my son. i will send them to who believe us, not the faithless or buzzard.

My memory might be poor but i recall the head of avalon stating some pretty lofty goals that had little to do with
making a profit and more to do with his fondness of bitcoin.

 The BTC:USD exchange rate shouldn't matter if you're evaluating your ROI in terms of BTC.  

Seems you've forgotten about Batches #1 and #2...

I distinctly remember BTC being worth around $6 a piece for batch 1 and a volatile $25 for batch 2.

I do not hate you. I do not even know you. I am a new comer in BTC market, and certainly was prepping my investment based on previous batch prices, so I expected something in $1800 range. I do not have BTC mined from earlier, so purchasing BTC with usd at 64+ is out of my capacity.

With the strategy change from accepting USD to BTC, potential customers and newcomers like me are screwed, without any hope to get into mining, since other than ASIC every other h/w is outdated.

The strategy of taking BTC is making sure, the people who bought batch 1 or 2 will keep on buying with the produced BTC (or the old time miners), and does not welcome new comers. Are you expanding the market with that ?

To be fair, why don't you give both choice of paying in BTC, or equivalent in USD ? Then there would be a fair chance. It is extremely hard to collect USD and then convert to BTC. Does that make sense ?

What I have been saying is purely my feeling as a new entrant in the market, who feels that he is out of option, just because this pay with BTC thing.

Again, I do not have anything personal with you or anyone at Avalon, so please do not take in that way.

what a pitty.... missed batch #2 because I was unable to get my money converted to BTC fast enough and now when I did read about batch #3 on monday I went on and bought BTC but only calculated with 1599$ like it was for batch #2 -.-

I completly understand the position of Avalon team, but the risk for the customers is a bit too high for me now. (But I'm looking for joint ventures if anyone is interested...)

as a core developer, i look upon all Avalons as my son. i will send them to who believe us, not the faithless or buzzard.

Just expressing my perspective, that's all.

Avalon ASIC just sold on Ebay for 15.000 USD - so much for auctioning them. I stick to GPU mining, you guys go ahead and destroy the BitCoin mining ecosystem with your greed. Low Watts is good for real ecosystem -Mother Nature- tho.

The winning bid was USD 20, 600.  I'd say it's a reflection of the greed of miners more than anything else.  Whoever bought it didn't do so to secure the network.

Avalon probably didn't even make a profit on the sale of that Batch 1 unit.  The original purchaser cleaned up and the person they sold it to is hoping to clean up too.

Link? How can the seller be sure he will not be scammed by the paypal ecosystem?

Just noticed it's a Batch 2 order which has been sold.  Not sure what e-Bay's policy on that will be if there's a problem. 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/181105056846

Now I'm tempted to put my Batch #2 on eBay.

I assume that was the feeling.   Many are finding out what happens when you deal with a principled business person.   I was "really?" at first, but then after thinking about it, it didn't seem bad.   With a ROI of 6-12 months, you know they will keep the gear on the network for that time, keeps it just the much more secure.   Hope people are looking at other motives than just profits.

Imagine what an in-hand unit from batch 1 might go for...

Never give up.
If you have $1,500 that is more or less equivalent to BTC 23.
If you can make a consortium with 3 additional people who have $1,500, your consortium can purchase a batch 3 machine.
Don't complain: plan for success.

I bumped that ebay price to 17k with no intention to pay for it to see if anyone would top it.

I was surprised to come home and find myself outbid.

I doubt the guy will pay for it, happens all the time when stuff gets expensive.

It's also a first time seller so the auction could have been for shit and giggles anyway.

The price hike from Avalon makes absolute sense. They really have one goal: To sell their hardware for as much as is possible.

You wouldn't do the same in their position?

I mean even at 5-6k you'll still pay for the unit eventually as long as it doesn't break (I haven't really read about warranties on these things)

WTF stop that drama!

Complaining is silly. Either act or forget.

You wouldn't do the same in their position?

I mean even at 5-6k you'll still pay for the unit eventually as long as it doesn't break (I haven't really read about warranties on these things)

If he pays for the unit its kinda hard to get scammed.

I said it makes sense. I think we are in agreement, but maybe you misread what I wrote?

Anyway, were I the owner of the Avalon company, I'd do something similar. Maybe use some kind of scheme with variable pricing and rebates to segment the market further, and also make smaller, less expensive units. Not to be nice to my customers, but to cram every last cent out of the ASIC mining market.

What's the per-unit cost, to Avalon? $200 per unit + $100 for shipping? I realize they also have a big investment to recoup, but let's forget about that one right now.

You are now asking customers to take on a substantially larger risk than before at a much lower Roi.
I thought  I read somewhere  a few months ago that the idea behind avalon was not about making money but an attempt get get more people into bitcoin and helping secure the network.  This move served to the exact opposite effect.  You are putting the units in to the hands of a select few allowing them more hashing power and turning your back on people like me who are new to bitcoin.

OMG! So much drama here ;D
Those who depressed about batch 3 prices, feel free to bid on batch#2 here
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Avalon-ASIC-Bitcoin-Miner-65-Gh-s-speed-guaranteed-PRE-ORDER-/140938300499 (STILL CHEAP!)
or here
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Avalon-ASIC-Bitcoin-mining-Rig-pre-order-/190814179747  Look! Batch#2 preorder for the price of batch#3!
or here
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Avalon-ASIC-Bitcoin-BTC-Mining-Computer-Rig-Miner-Unit-Pre-Order-/140937986794
Oh yeah, especially for BFL fans/customers
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-x-60-GH-s-Bitcoin-Miner-BitForce-Single-SC-ASIC-Butterfly-Labs-Avalon-/230949834281 (not sure why it says avalon still. That is an insult!)
So I'm expecting BFL raise their prices too sometime. People will buy these things anyway
and of course, those who believe that avalons won't sell at $5-7K should look at this famous link again
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Avalon-ASIC-Bitcoin-BTC-Mining-Computer-Rig-Miner-Unit-Pre-Order-/181105056846
yes, this might be a fake, maybe shadow bidding and such. But the thing is, you have to pay fees on ebay, a certain % from your final sale. So, if this is a fake sale, that seller still has to pay ebay fee.
Now, let's say I have batch#1 avalon. And I'm thinking about selling it. (Too loud, too hot in the room, wife won't let me keep it, kids etc. It is hypothetical, I have no wife, no kids and no avalon) But let's pretend I do have one avalon. How much does it worth to you? You could have it right now (10 days the latest depending on shipping for example) how much would you be willing to pay for shit unit? $10,000? $20,000? And why?

You are mentally retarded, you know this, right?

+1

+1  (but don't trust me, today I was informed I am mentally retarded)

Honestly, I'm thinking that Avalon team is specially delayed shipment because of BFL. They gave BFL some time to start shipment in order to not give over-porfit for miners. Do you remember words of Yifu? He stated that he has joined ASIC dev to make another competitor in Bitcoin world and there will be no chance that one company will rule the ASIC (Bitcoin) world. But unexpected circumstances made from Avalon that monster... And I think that role is not what Yifu want. In order to give BFL another chance Avalon team is deciding to raise a price. Not a secret, that BFL could lose many customers if Avalon open batch #3 at the same price. People will just cancel they orders at BFL and make an order at Avalon. To make this decision much harder, price was raised, and another delay was presented...

Dude,
BFL will not deliver anything in coming mounts. And the BFL customers can not cancel their orders.

Its pure speculation :) You and me don't know the exact situation :)
What about orders, why can't? I haven't read any messages, where anyone stated that he was rejected with refund?

Since they have no real competition, they can... I personaly think that 90 btc is insane for something you will get in about 3 months, and  it will never see ROI. And they were on my good side so far....

At BTC, you'll pay for it in about a month.  That's their point - that it's unreasonable to expect units to be priced at a point where they'll pay for themselves in days.  They're leaving themselves plenty of room to adjust the price downwards as difficulty changes and more TH hit the network.  There's only going to be a short time when expecting a unit to pay for itself within a couple of months is reasonable.  As more ASICs hit the network, the break even point will blow out.  When it blows out to a point where sales drop off, vendors will likely drop their prices to keep it at an "acceptable" time-frame.

The point that the vendor conveniently eschews is that it was not his capital that paid for this development. Sorta like skepsidyne (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=8167.msg625271#msg625271) rehashed, or in other words never trust a Bitcoin miner. (That link is instructive of the entire "capital doesn't matter" attitude of miner folk, by the way).

In practical terms, the hash rate is ~50 Gh currently, even if units were delivered normally you'd be paying 100 BTC for 0.1% of current hash output, which means you'd be even in roughly a month if hash output stays put and your electricity is free. That sort of deal isn't interesting at all, let the very "ethical (http://polimedia.us/trilema/2013/in-which-we-aspersor/)" ngzhang run his own rigs to his heart's content.

Which brings to the fore the following issue: two Chinese brothers were born the same day. One, AbelMiner, came to the community, took 20k BTC worth of equity which was called equity, built miners, faced all sorts of challenges, troubles and problems but eventually got about 6 Gh online. The other, Caivalon, came to the community, took 20k BTC worth of equity which was called "pre-orders", built miners, faced all sorts of challenges, troubles and problems but eventually delivered about 6 Gh worth of units to shareholders and then walked away from the deal under the guise of a broken pricing model.

Granted, this isn't quite as much of a scam as BFL. It's more of a scam than Asicminer (at least so far) and I would say on the scale these things are normally judged it counts as a scam. That the sheeple aren't quite immediately aware this is the case...well...this is how Bitcoin mining "ventures" go, isn't it? Gigavps launched bonds, paid 3-40 cents to the coin to date (but you can dilute that if you wish to "upgrade", of course); hashking launched "investments", paid 30 cents or less; amazingrando idem, this is the story since day one.

Eventually the sort of people that go for these sorts of deals will run out of Bitcoin. Sometime in 2050 or whatever.

The point that the vendor conveniently eschews is that it was not his capital that paid for this development. Sorta like skepsidyne (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=8167.msg625271#msg625271) rehashed, or in other words never trust a Bitcoin miner. (That link is instructive of the entire "capital doesn't matter" attitude of miner folk, by the way).

In practical terms, the hash rate is ~50 Gh currently, even if units were delivered normally you'd be paying 100 BTC for 0.1% of current hash output, which means you'd be even in roughly a month if hash output stays put and your electricity is free. That sort of deal isn't interesting at all, let the very "ethical (http://polimedia.us/trilema/2013/in-which-we-aspersor/)" ngzhang run his own rigs to his heart's content.

Which brings to the fore the following issue: two Chinese brothers were born the same day. One, AbelMiner, came to the community, took 20k BTC worth of equity which was called equity, built miners, faced all sorts of challenges, troubles and problems but eventually got about 6 Gh online. The other, Caivalon, came to the community, took 20k BTC worth of equity which was called "pre-orders", built miners, faced all sorts of challenges, troubles and problems but eventually delivered about 6 Gh worth of units to shareholders and then walked away from the deal under the guise of a broken pricing model.

Granted, this isn't quite as much of a scam as BFL. It's more of a scam than Asicminer (at least so far) and I would say on the scale these things are normally judged it counts as a scam. That the sheeple aren't quite immediately aware this is the case...well...this is how Bitcoin mining "ventures" go, isn't it? Gigavps launched bonds, paid 3-40 cents to the coin to date (but you can dilute that if you wish to "upgrade", of course); hashking launched "investments", paid 30 cents or less; amazingrando idem, this is the story since day one.

Eventually the sort of people that go for these sorts of deals will run out of Bitcoin. Sometime in 2050 or whatever.

very simple answer
nobody buy and they will drop price
if you can afford to lose ~$6000 then it is oki to take a risk, else it is not recommended

I really wish the BTC to crash hard just after Avalon starts taking order. We shall see what happens to their BTC 88 - 115 payment plan. Greedy bastards.

Ever heard of http://bitinstant.com?

It is hard to go through bitinstant. Limit is 500 USD - now it is less than 10BTC ; coinbase has limit 10BTC and does not work most of the time. Buying from others has high % premium.

But anyway, it was just a request - if not possible, it would be good to know when ordering may begin, and give sufficient time to collect BTC through various means.

I distinctly remember BTC being worth around $6 a piece for batch 1 and a volatile $25 for batch 2.

I have great respect for team Avalon.  After all, in the Asic game, they are the BIG WINNER !  thumbs up, Gratz.

That said...

Please, BUY or SHUT UP !

Pretty much. And now half of Batch #1 is mining at $65 pulling in $10k a month so far. Hence the original confusion...

and the other half still doesn't have their units, all of batch two doesn't and they are trying to push batch 3 at a huge markup in value and another unclear delivery date with a break thrown in.

My guess:  BTC will still rise, BFL will ship, AsicMiner will grow, so Avalon miner may take up to five month mining back their BTC..  5 month for a free Avalon is a free miner anyway..
They are not greedy bastards, they are a business, the goal of a business is to make money.. They will sell all batch 3, even if those price are as high as it seems.  Buyers will mine back their BTC.  No one will be at lost, so please, if you're not to buy, dont whine !

If you owned Avalon how much would you charge?

If you owned Avalon how much would you charge?

Any one from Batch 2 at least got any tracking numbers?

Right dood, because when you go buy a computer the price is not based on what it costs to make one, the price is based on what you could be earning on a computer if you lived in China and worked elance.com 12 hours a day.

The cost of computing hardware goes down as the generations go up. The price is to follow value. There's zero economical reason for batch 3 to cost even half as much as batch 1 on a fiat basis. 20 BTC give or take.

If there's demand for 60,000 units at 20 BTC, make 60,000 units and walk home with 100k BTC in earned profit rather than this medieval nonsense of "we're only making 600 so we're charging 5x a reasonable price so as to have 97.5% profit margins" netting you a few ks. Business 101, corporatism 101 etc.

Of course...being a company is hard. Being a retarded asshole is easy. Big surprise when wannabe-companies turn out the retarded asshole eh.

If you owned Avalon how much would you charge?

I like being honest, so I would auction them 1 by 1 as I mounted them, and ship them immediately with tracking and everything. I'd have let the auctions run in parallel depending on availability, there's plenty of demand to cover several parallel auctions.

Bwahahaha, holy shit that made me laugh. It is immensely apparent that Team Avalon has poor business experience, and for the record I have no problem with that. It's good for a company to stumble as they did, so long as they learn from their mistakes. In the end it makes you stronger. This, however, has yet to happen..hence the humor of you putting them on a pedestal.


Speaking of security, since when is vastly raising the bar to entry better for the network in the long run? Instead of thousands of people saving their pennies to make a purchase, Avalon is instead tailoring to a hundred customers who have substantial amounts of cash lying around. This sort of circles back to my comment on their "business skills"...



Dalkore, I trust you've been here long enough to understand that (for the vast majority of people) profit is, in fact, the primary motivator.

...

Haha, keep bitching Mirchica, we both know you would do the same fucking thing, but because some Chinese is doing it you're not entitled to call him names on a public forum.

Btw, why would I make and handle 60k units when I could reap the same profits with only 600? Are you mentally challenged?

If you owned Avalon how much would you charge?

Who do you figure owns Avalon? He who did the work or they who put up the money?

Who do you figure owns Avalon? He who did the work or they who put up the money?

If you guys want a batch 3, buy BTC now and by the time they open up Batch 3, it will cost you a fuckton more if you cover it with USD at the time. Just my BTC 0.02

anyone know shipment costs (as its not included in main price) ?

I have 49 Dell computers and 8 Dell Servers here at my company, I did not find share certificates in the box they were shipped in.   They charged my credit card and received my funds sometimes as much as a month before they sent them.   Let me know where I should apply for my equity in their firm.

Those Dell computers existed at the time you ordered them.

I propose we continue this thread in Haiku form only

Avalon ships box
They raise prices by 4 times
Masses starts bitching

Avalon's ASICs
Invented BitCoins demise
Technologarchy

When the generation 1 miners purchase the bulk of gen 3, they will be bitcoins' oligarchy.
The beauty of bitcoin is that it is decenteralized.
Avalons price structure for Gen3 doesn't help bitcoin.
In fact it does the opposite, IMO.

- not really, the current diff already includes majority of batch #1's hashing power. but I also don't believe diff will only be 10,000,000 but like I said, it should take at least 1 month of ROI, realistically best case 1 month, regular projection of 3 month, which is about diff 30,000,000 which is more reasonable if BFL ships.

Let's assume that this world there will be only Avalon are mining. How many Avalon machines will be there? 300+600+1000+trade-in, that's about 150T hashing power. And the difficulty is already more than 10,000,000.

So the projection of difficulty is irresponsible.

In the announcement it said Batch #3 will go on sale on Friday....does that mean Friday in China? It's 12:30pm Friday in China right now, so I suppose we can expect it any time now.

I guess that means as an American, I'm not sleeping tonight. :D

Those Dell computers existed at the time you ordered them.

what about upgrade modules? when can we order them?

Where is the first place where announcement/link/password will be released that ordering is open?

you would still be better off buying 5 bfl units in the long term, even if it were another month or two delay.

Well, I thought I would jump into Avalon Batch three... but my jaw hit the floor when I saw the price. What the bloody hell?

Going all in on BFL seems like a better idea than this shit. $5k for a box that cost initally $1299. Someone decided they don't want customers.

Has Avalon sent a really nice fruit basket to Butterfly Labs to thank them for allowing them to be able to extract these rents from the market?   Do not get me wrong, I completely agree with what Avalon is doing as it makes perfect sense (and actually may make this a more orderly business as people will have to think for a minute before pulling the trigger).

Buy Bitcoins because they are going nowhere but UP as people will need to buy more than they expected.

I wonder if Avalon would still ask for 88btc if the price of BTC dropped to $40 or even less. Hey, as a group can we make that happen?

I wonder if Avalon would still ask for 88btc if the price of BTC dropped to $40 or even less. Hey, as a group can we make that happen?

Dump our btc just to see what some dude will do with his price ? That will be like shooting yourself in the foot for fun. :)

Why would anyone buy avalon at 88btc if by the time it gets to you you could have traded 88btc on exchange several times and made 88btc every 2-4 weeks without avalon?

Can you double your money every few weeks by trading?

It all turned into greed. Once someone gets their tip wet with a little money it changes them into someone else. I read previously that the Avalon creator did this project to protect the Bitcoin network/community, but seeing a %400 increase in price for a unit that really only cost $1500 or so is not protecting the Bitcoin network/community but just being flat out greedy. It is very easy to see that.

If you had a crystal ball you could double your money every couple days.

the problem with bitcoin right now is it's volatility. It could double in value, or it could halve. it could be worth a fortune, or nothing. It's not slow swings either. it goes way up, or way down very fast.

i havent seen these 'wild downward swings'...

all ive seen is a few solid jumps immediately after mainstream news stories.

Where is this newsletter? Is it the same as email subscription?

were you here 2 years ago? even last year?

https://blockchain.info/charts/market-price

see that? that's a bubble in progress.

...and looks like it might have just popped. $66.30 and dropping.

i havent seen these 'wild downward swings'...

all ive seen is a few solid jumps immediately after mainstream news stories.

It didn't pop. This is just the bull trap.

https://i.imgur.com/iMjfGf7.jpg

Where is this newsletter? Is it the same as email subscription?

Anyone consider that with #3 price speculation/prediction they created bubble to sell mined bitcoins at higher price ? Just my toughts..

Funny thing is, people were pulling out that exact chart when we had our first "bubble" up to $30 (or whatever it was) and subsequent crash back to $3 (or whatever it was). 

And in 12 months time, when we've spiked to $1000, people will be saying it again.

Just because a market recovers after a crash doesn't mean there wasn't a bubble.  Real estate bubbles happen with monotonous regularity but property doesn't ever drop in value to zero and stay there.

I see the details are up, no mention of a price change and the same price as originally quoted
http://store.avalon-asics.com/?product=avalon-asic-unit

must of changed the page

yup that's the pricing listed or was listed temporarily. Which they dropped the price a bit..

Has anyone seen this.

http://store.avalon-asics.com/?product=avalon-asic-batch-2

According to my calculations, if you want one now now now .... its over $100,000 dollars??

Will there be a newsletter email before the shop goes live?

Has anyone seen this.

http://store.avalon-asics.com/?product=avalon-asic-batch-2

According to my calculations, if you want one now now now .... its over $100,000 dollars??

There is too high probability that by the time Avalon batch 3 delivered BFL will be out in full 655TH force and then good luck with making back your 88 BTC
I have calculated that BFL pumping @25% of their ability i.e. 200 units a day * 22 workdays a month of 60GH units will increase network by 8.8TH a day
200*22*60/30=8,800GH

Not counting existing miners or other companies. So in 365 days you will make 43.71 BTC and deduct $1,314 for power (0.600kW*24H*365D*$0.25)

Price is 3-4 times too high so it's too big of a gamble. Feels like Avalon is cashing-out out of the game. Last final sale for all the marbles, grabbing with both hands. They pretty much dead very soon. Even if BFL will delay again for 2 month, Avalon doesn't have much better track record of delivering in volume. Where are 1st batch 300 and 2nd 600, I ask you?
And we are only 2 weeks away from their announced delivery.

Plus no warranty or guaranteed support. Sounds like they don't have faith in their ability to fix it, (or make it)

There is too high probability that by the time Avalon batch 3 delivered BFL will be out in full 655TH force and then good luck with making back your 88 BTC
I have calculated that BFL pumping @25% of their ability i.e. 200 units a day * 22 workdays a month of 60GH units will increase network by 8.8TH a day
200*22*60/30=8,800GH

Not counting existing miners or other companies. So in 365 days you will make 43.71 BTC and deduct $1,314 for power (0.600kW*24H*365D*$0.25)

Price is 3-4 times too high so it's too big of a gamble. Feels like Avalon is cashing-out out of the game. Last final sale for all the marbles, grabbing with both hands. They pretty much dead very soon. Even if BFL will delay again for 2 month, Avalon doesn't have much better track record of delivering in volume. Where are 1st batch 300 and 2nd 600, I ask you?
And we are only 2 weeks away from their announced delivery.

Plus no warranty or guaranteed support. Sounds like they don't have faith in their ability to fix it, (or make it)

Making prototype of ASIC on a budget i.e. under $200,000 for 65nm takes 3-4+ month additional time and is pointless. So then we left over with full production run and that is why there is no prototype, but once first unit is made and firmware/software complete then they can make any number of units a day as long as it's profitable to make them and it is. They can just hire entire army of workers and pay them $200/hour and it still be profitable for them. The only thing they will run out of produced chips in matter of weeks.

1) $200/h is an exaggeration to demonstrate that they will not have problem finding any number of qualified people to assemble units.
2) each person can put together 96 units in 8 hours if he besides to work fast, maybe get paid $25/h, so 2 people not 20

bitfury is about to deploy

Where is the info in them?

Look for 100TH picostock or something like that. I personally believe them to be a scam...

FYI: 100TH is nothing for industrial production

http://www.bitfury.org/bitfury110.html

It seems pretty ok for me with 100% prove they know what they do although the link above is for FPGA.

I happened to find a post from DAVE exc BASIC PR with hyperlink to their business plan and all the numbers inside Including AVALON ROI and all their team members. just look in the forum and follow Dave post's
Dave BASIC background is not making him a scammer at least for me. And yes i think that he is involved at that project also

I was pointed out that they never sold one unit of that FPGA farm. I was also confused by this before like you are.

Sure, but everyone knows how to do FPGA.

He is for me. The project before 100TH was to buy something like 1000 BTCFPGA asic units or something like that. What a business plan! Also, look at how their ipo went, i personally don't belive them to have founded it.

About the statement that Sure, but everyone knows how to do FPGA. I can argue with you on that. There are only three people i think who knows about FPGA in details.

I don't know enough about FPGA so i think you to be correct. I was confusing people releasing FPGA hardware with people programming the bitstream of the fpga cores. However, i still think that developing a FPGA core dosen't equals to be able to produce an ASIC one ;)

There is too high probability that by the time Avalon batch 3 delivered BFL will be out in full 655TH force

And why do you think that the rest of 75 wafer would not be delivered to them?Or that they can't assemble more than 625 units in 2 month?

And why do you think that the rest of 75 wafer would not be delivered to them?
Or that they can't assemble more than 625 units in 2 month?

Newest bitcoin difficulty: 6,695,826 which jumped from 4,847,647.

At this rate we should reach 10M in about four weeks. In eight weeks from now on 15M looks realistic. And in three months, we should be somewhere around 25M... And that's without BFL.

I don't think the current exchange rate sustains.

So I think a ROI of one month for a batch #3 device is NOT possible.

Of course, 1500$ was "too cheap" (and a no-brainer to buy one), but now it's a rather big gamble.

Can anyone tell me what is the formula for calculating difficulty using network power? for example adding 100TH means what to difficulty?

That $20K ebay auction for a batch #2 preorder probably got their attention.

But, that's for a batch #2 head start, not a 600-units-later batch #3 item.

It wouldn't be such a big gamble if they could guarantee a tight time frame. But they basically decided to throw all the cost and risk on the consumer side, since there seems to be a massive surplus of demand. Now let's see if that's the case.

Where did you come up with these numbers?

2. Exchange rate is in no way guaranteed to stay at current value. A drop back to ~ 20 USD seems likely. Especially when all people interested in buying an Avalon unit bought enough bitcoins. Demand will drop, so will the price.

*is currently updating the FAQ on the site*
*runs off*

Price just lowered to 75BTCs.

*is currently updating the FAQ on the site*
*runs off*

At the time of writing Batch #3 is on sale

You're going to break my f5 key.

The price of each unit is the current mining difficulty which at the time of writing, just got readjusted to about 6,695,826. We take that number and multiply it by two ( predicting the network speed will double. ) and calculate the return in a thirty day window, which is about 75 bitcoins. See this site for more details.

Exactly what batch 2 opened at. Though the exchange rate was around $20 at that time and shipping was included at that time.

~6300USD

Batch #2 was a gift.

Hindsight improves one's vision...certainly didn't seem like a gift at the time. With shipping being pushed back, it's less of a gift, but I'll go along anyway if we get those extra expansion slots.

I don't know what numbers you were working on, but from my perspective, anyway I crunched the numbers, it was a more than 50% chance that these would ROI and possibly more.  I know BFL sounded like it was going down but I just don't have faith in them, really since the FPGA and how long those took and the serious lack of customer service.

I think by "voting" they mean you can purchase now at the current price or they will keep the units and mine themselves for a time and then sell them cheaper later.

I have zero faith in BFL...that's why I placed an order for an Avalon on 2/3. Had they not gotten that unit into Garzik's hands and gotten info out right before opening the order window it'd have been a whole lot tougher for me to press that buy button. The numbers were there, but Avalon guys were acting pretty creepy at that time.

Let me give you case in point - Libertybuck (in China) with 18 Avalon units would be minimally 1.2 TH/s.  Allowing one person to order than many units while other could not get even one order in seems like they didn't really follow through on what they were preaching.

They should be commended for their hard work as opposed to the comedy/tragedy act that is BFL, but their Oligarchy (Bitsyncom demanding respect from his customers) needs some retooling.  And no it's not a cultural thing I'm misreading since my parents are from mainland also.

LOL, I've rejected multitude of 100+ orders and even an offer to buy out the whole 300 unit lot, if we want to min-max I wouldn't even reply to you.

out of the numerous email I get a day, about 30% is people asking how can I pay me $$$$ to get faster shipment, talk about respect.

I'll respect people who deserves it.

Also, what does your parents have to do with anything. Some people in china got their units earlier due to Chinese New Year, or are you too detached from China growing up outside and all, considering you didn't say you were also from mainland that you don't actually understand CNY's impact on business?

LOL

I'll respect people who deserves it.

LOL, I've rejected multitude of 100+ orders and even an offer to buy out the whole 300 unit lot, if we want to min-max I wouldn't even reply to you.

out of the numerous email I get a day, about 30% is people asking how can I pay me $$$$ to get faster shipment, talk about respect.

I'll respect people who deserves it.

Also, what does your parents have to do with anything. Some people in china got their units earlier due to Chinese New Year, or are you too detached from China growing up outside and all, considering you didn't say you were also from mainland that you don't actually understand CNY's impact on business?

LOL

Well I do commend you for killing the 100+ orders, but is it really fair to let some people order 4-10 units while others don't even have a chance because the payment site went belly up?  It is your company and your decision, my opinion is a lottery system or even just limiting orders to 2 per address/person would have been more fair.

People who deserve respect...well some people behave on this site differently from their outside lives - yes you can see their greed in their emails to you.

I did not mean any disrespect about the heritage.  What I am saying is sometimes people don't understand the way people word things because sayings are different in different parts of the world.  My parents speech is often viewed as blunt or harsh, but guess that's the way we Chinese are lol.

To shred some light, you can ask libertybuck, that was a group order, we didn't in fact allow people to order a lot of units per person. and as for payment site bellying up, that was totally our fault.

To shred some light, you can ask libertybuck, that was a group order, we didn't in fact allow people to order a lot of units per person. and as for payment site bellying up, that was totally our fault.

I don't know if you posted this elsewhere, but I want to thank you for owning that.

And nobody is bitching about them delaying and building a mining farm for themselves.... wow...

Batch #2 was a gift.

Honestly l am not happy about the price of batch 3 avalon but did you actually read the newsletter?
It said they would either  farm for a month OR raise the price of the units and leave it up to the community.
Realistically they could mine new each unit for 1 week  and call it ' testing'  then ship selling them at $2000 usd and be in just as good of a cash position.*I wish they would do that*

Remember how many people complained that they opened the 2nd batch earlier than expected so they could pay bills to pre-order parts to complete batch #1?

Now it's a gift?

Let's all take note of those complaining that batch #3 is too expensive and check back in 3 months ;-)

So is there a limit on quantity this time around?

Also, I think I saw the price will be 75 btc. Will that include 4 modules, or is there a different price for those?

Will that include PSU and shipping?

Batch #3 won't be expensive if all these conditions are met:

1) Shipping delay less than 2 weeks
2) BFL deliver no hashing power or meaningless amount of hashing power until June.

3) Avalon won't deploy Batch #4 themselves at 500T size.
4) Bitcoin won't enter into another bear market in next 3 month after a 35x rally from 2 USD bottom.

5) Bitfury delayed the 100T at June.
6) Helviticoin won't deliver 1000T until September.
7) ASICMINER don't deploy their next-gen chips until September.

So I decide to order Batch #3 with lots of other people to limit my exposure to such kind of uncertainty, though the 7 conditions are not impossible. The relationship between Batch #1 and #2 miners and Avalon are win-win, but less likely for the Batch #3 users.

Hmmm... I am thinking about jumping on batch 3 order, but I am wondering about the EU customs and taxation...  at 20% tax on imports... which value will Avalon mark the device? 7000k USD? 1500 USD range as previous batches?
This might make B3 avalon additional 20% more expensive... :|

What value is declared on the unit?

true, sorry, misunderstood the sentence in the email.

When they "leave it up to the community" is there a survey or a discussion forum somewhere?

Let me give you case in point - Libertybuck (in China) with 18 Avalon units would be minimally 1.2 TH/s.  Allowing one person to order than many units while other could not get even one order in seems like they didn't really follow through on what they were preaching.

To shred some light, you can ask libertybuck, that was a group order, we didn't in fact allow people to order a lot of units per person. and as for payment site bellying up, that was totally our fault.

I explained it several times before. To save my friends's time, I collected money from them and made that order.  "Group buy" could save time,engergy,even shipping cost.

It looks as though Batch 3 are still available to buy, but is this really the case?

See, and you all were worried about batch #3 wouldn't sell ;D

that ebay auction is fake, bidder identity hidden, seller is pumping his own auction or get help from his friend, ant, uncle, grandma

the cheapest batch, why not ? ;D

My thoughts exactly.
Tons of people are predicting $1000-$2700/BTC1 and in few years even $100,000/BTC1  if that happens, people will think batch 3 was practically free ;D

Need help I ordered 7 of these units and my computer crashed shortly after.  Additonally, I have not been able to access my tormail to see any updates, however when I log into my account at avalon, where it showed my units ordered it now shows it empty, anybody know what s going on or the email address to the admin?  Please help.....