Bitcoin Forum

Why is  the left pushing the idea of socialism/comunism so much even tho it showed that it doesn't work many times in the past?

I explained it in this topic and a blog post:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1580546.0 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1580546.0)
http://www.narrowpathnetwork.com/debt/hillary-clinton-the-coming-forced-socialism/ (http://www.narrowpathnetwork.com/debt/hillary-clinton-the-coming-forced-socialism/)

it's simply a way to gain more power.

Because you have been lied to for years... everyone has been lied to by the establishment...

Socialism is a good thing... it is the balance for Capitalism

Capitalism means letting the rich run the country and write all the laws to benefit themselves...

You don't want pure Capitalism... it's basically anarchy where the rich run everything... an Oligarchy of corporations

You do not want an Oligarchy where corporations write the laws (which is currently how America works)... this is bad news... a disaster in the making



One example... Martin Shkreli:
Capitalist greed let him raise the price of HIV meds from $13 to $750/pill... this could not happen with socialist healthcare... there is no profit, or greed...




But, as I said... you have been lied to... you think Capitalism is a good thing, when it is self-destructive... nobody ever told you the truth... you have to do your own research

Capitalism = rich people win (get a job and work for some rich asshole, so he gets richer while you get poorer)
Socialism = everyone is equal (in theory)

You don't know the difference between capitalism and corporatism. Don't feel bad, it's a common error.

Troll much?

America is the best example we have of "Capitalism"... Capitalism inevitably leads to this situation... it is inevitable

Capitalism is based upon greed... the profit motive... capitalism is corporatism... there is no difference

You can label things however you want, but I am talking about the situation in America, as I assume everyone is...



America is also heavily Socialist... We have the fire department, police department, etc... you don't have to pay the fireman up-front to spray water on your burning house... right?

America has "social security", which is a pure socialist policy (and the most popular policy in American history)

America is a mixed-bag of many things



Part of the problem is the media... you have asshats like Bill O'Reily saying shit like, "Socialist Bernie wants to raise your taxes"... which is not true at all... he wants to raise BILL O'REILY'S taxes!... raising taxes on people making over $1,000,000/year is not "your taxes"... but people don't bother to research, they just assume Bill isn't lying to their face (spoiler: he is)


The tax situation in America is because of the rich Oligarchy... rich people pay 5-10% in taxes, and middle-class pays 30-40%+ in taxes (that's more than triple, but who is counting?)... that's Capitalism in a nutshell... rich get richer, poor get taxed to fuck

Capitalists will make you slaves, they have done.

SocialistS gave you better wages, better standards of health care (UK) without that you would still be going to the boss man cap in hand begging for a raise in wages....really low wages these days all down due to Capitalists and corps

Bailing out the bankers really gets on my nerves, using tax payers money, even when banks get fined they get tax breaks on that.

Get married and hand all your money, time, and property over to your spouse.

8)

Fuck Socialism and Bernies people, CAPITALISM AND TRUMP FOR LIFE!

Don't let the Democrats fool you with there bullshit, they want the US to be a Euro-Socialist country.

Hey BADecker  do you get off quoting me, stop it or report

Because it is an easy form of populism.  In the end they are just trying to get votes. Looking back in history we see that socialism is not working. Taking private ownership away and forcing everybody to be the same, makes people lazy. It is attractive to get money from the rich people.

Canada is socialism,  therefor socialism works perfectly in a current situation and your argument is completely invalid.

You Americans get religious about your words and act like doing something socialist is going make you wear shitty old wool clothes and force you to march in an imperialistic army.
the only thing socialism means is programs that you pay tax for that benefit the entire population such as hospitals , Fire Departments , Universities and Police Stations.
Why on earth wouldn't you want that?

Socialism: taking a share of YOUR Bitcoin to spend it on something not decided by you. Do you agree to it, or coercion would be necessary?

not true at all, no one in Canada has anythign stolen by our very socialist govt and the majority of Government programs benefit all Canadians. Not a single Canadian is against our universally free health care, you never hear us complain about or socialized programs, we only take advantage of them and you never hear us complain that other people decided on our money because its done through taxes wich Americans already have, in Canada we have a bigger middle class and a better quality of life for our worst off.

remember a chain is only as strong as its weakest link.

Plus , you spend the money anyways
instead of taxes that cover you schoolign and health care, you pay through the nose for school and health care.

You end up paying anyways

How much of your Bitcoin are your ready to forfeit in taxes each years (wealth tax) and how much of your new Bitcoin (income tax) and how much at each purchase (vat)? How much do you consider fair?

Socialism always end up Venezuelan... There is no other option because greed isn't the product of capitalism bit of the human nature and particularly women hypergamie...

No idea about socialism and according to google it is a political and economic theory of social organization that advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

Maybe because they still believed that it is the key or maybe a way to atleast alleviate everyone from poverty.  If the production, distribution, and exchange is owned by the people many will benefits.  No more hunger.  Everyone will have a comfortable life.  There would be equality.  And speaking of equality, that is not a good thing for the greedy people.  People who wants fame.  People who wants all the richness of the earth.  As long as there are people like this, this would not take effect.  Thus, it will not work. 

Well if Venezuela screwed up socialism it must be bad...#Sarcasm. Dude come to Canada an tell me its not working out.

Look the thing is with capitalism, Communism or Socialism, they are just systems to be followed and if your a greedy dick you can always screw them up.

Communism sounds great in theory but it was screwed up by greedy dicks, so does that make it a bad system or does that mean greedy dicks can ruin it?

Capitalism was working fine but currently its being ruined by greedy dicks

The lesson isn't that any system is bad the lesson is don't be a greedy dick and everything will be fine.

In Canada, our dollar is doing fine, our middle class is doing fine our health care is solid and even reoccurring cancers of the worst kind get treated over and over with out you ever being turned away, we are a perfect example of how when properly applied taxes can be a wonderful thing!

I would gladly pay taxes on my BTC if it went to a communal cause the was proven to benefit all BTC holders, your problem is that you are blaming the systems instead of blaming the greedy, like you should.

I live in Serbia and currently we're in a transition from socialism to capitalism and when I ask people that were living back in the '80s they said they wouldn't be going back and because of Tito, we're living shitty as we are today. Also, Serbia isn't considered a socialist country but we have free healthcare , school and collegde (if you have good marks and do the test, before enrolling in college, good). So why do some people force socialism if it always ends up with communism and totalitarianism and most of people who lived through it, wouldn't go back (also, there is some russian guy on youtube that talking about capitalism and socialism and why he left the socialist Russia).

Again there are many examples of modern countries in the west with many socialist policies and they did not become Russia or Serbia in the 70's and 80's.

Italy has workers compensation and payed vacations of up to 6 weeks per year, France has free public schools with government funded nutritional lunches, and because many Nordic countries do not a low private schools their public schools are considered some of the best in the entire world. many European countries have free university and they all still maintain a healthy amount of capitalism and free market activity, again the blame belongs on the greedy not the system.

Thank goodness somebody in here has some sense. Nor you make the most reasonable comments and its very satisfying to read you shutting down these ignorant claims.

Kudos Mate!

SOCIALISM

State and social system, the basis of the relations of production to-cerned is the public ownership of the means of production and a rum implemented the principle: from each according to his ability, to each according to his work.
In general, if you do not attach importance to trifles. Those who have done so much and he has received. The idea, in general it is not bad. Even capitalism, ideally, is committed to socialism. That's only in real life, these schemes do not work. Proven by Russia, China and Cuba.

Capitalism worked in the past and works now. Socialism has never worked in the past and does not now. Crapitalism has never worked in the past and does not now(USA).

I liked what Gingrich said about unemployment benefits-the reciever should be doing some "training" or along those lines while receiving those benefits, so they don't just milk it up like my cousin does. I think also everyone should be able to opt out of welfare such as Social Security. No harm to that.

As far as the corruption of politicians by wealkthy-dont allow them to receive money in any way through lobbying. Im not just talkin about corporations-the unions are what i fear the most. They have damned my state California to hell. Our education went from first to 48th years ago.

The fair share tax wont change a damn thing as much as some would like it do. As soon as the tax gets high in the wealthies minds. They will hide the money. Only at normal levels will they actually pay it which is why they pay a lower percentage of their income. They still pay for the 50% of the US population that don't. Estonia has a flat tax and they are rising.

Taxes are the least of my worries, spending is the most.

Depressions are all under the feds watch and he says he got somtin to fix it. Yet we didn't get out of the depression until our soldiers came back. We haven't gotten out of the recession with the increased spending under bush and obama. Wasting money doesn't seem to be in the minds of both republicans and democrats.

It's the if... Then you agree to social democracy meaning that 50%+1 of the voters will be able to decide how much of your btc you can keep and allocate your founds to what ever they see fit, but ultimately it ends in cronyism because greed contrary to your belief is quite spread among all species...

This is the big problem that socialists have with freedom (and fake conservative). The individual, ultimate creation of the almighty God is born free to chose. According to some, one even took an apple that shouldn't have been touched.

Then to the last posters all socialists dreams end when the extraction specialists arrives... They are the front men of the giant unseen powerful armies of the free market. The last remenants will be the leaders of the socialists movement (Maduro, family and friends wealth is long out and secure from Venezuela... The sad part is that he will certainly see death there... More profit for the extraction specialist). Your so called nation is just a jurisdiction, if you can keep it. I hope you will enjoy the fight against the Corporate Invisible Armies...

Love how stupid this post is and how it completely ignores all previous stated facts in other posts.

CANADA IS VERY SOCIALIST AND WORKS FINE! In spite of what you may think of the Canadian government funded programs, such as Free healthcare, Public Schools, Public Fire Safety, Public Police, Public works, Free Festivals for all Canada's citizens and Government controlled Banking , Canada did not turn into Russia or any of the failed countries you are mentioning therefor everything you just said was completely false. Canada's unemployment is no sky high because it has government funded programs that help find people jobs. Get it?

Basically you Americans hate the very things that would help you, and your all stupid for not voting for Bernie Sanders

 

Ohh Canada... The 3rd biggest country on earth with only 34 millions people and mostly unexploited land... LoL and you brag about your prowess... How did it end up for the mighty blackberry?

You make it sound like:

A) you don't pay taxes already
B) The thigns you pay taxes for would be free other wise (which they would not)
C) Socialism would take away from your democracy (which it would not)
D) That super packs don't already control your current government with an iron fist, your worried big corporations will work together to control the vote over where your communal money would go if America was hypothetically more socialist. Accept currently you have no communal money or programs and those greedy corporations charge you amounts you cant afford for services you need. Instead they would be fighting for a bigger piece of a pie that's already put their to pay them for services you are guaranteed , only an idiot would fight against his own best interests

It can be applied to a developed country where it could sustain the needs of its people with all benefits for free.  And a country where corruption is very minimal.  

It would be a good thing if all companies or high earning establishments will be operated by the government to finance the needs of its people.  But of course this would not take effect as some leaders and officials were corrupt.

I make a point about our public works programs proving to be beneficial for everyone in Canada and you make fun of  the size of our population and mention one Canadian company that went bankrupt, clearly a very intelligent argument from a very educated person, who's opinion we should all listen too.

Unfortunately... here in 'Murica, anti-socialism is preached in the textbooks in school

Every 'Murican gets told dozens of times by dozens of teachers that Communism is of the devil, and Socialism is Communism

That's pretty much it though... that's all they say... we need to hate those evil Commie bastards...

But, nobody ever explains why... it's all a bunch of "Socialism never works", etc... but there is never any evidence to back up such a statement

It boils down to competition with Russia and China... you gotta hate the competition/enemy and slander them with propaganda, right?


It's basically the definition of bigotry being preached in the public school system for 50 years

as a matter of fact the evidence even points to the contrary, if you look at European countries.

Russia's problems do not come from the fact that they have socialized institutions they come from the fact that greedy dictators control those institutions, same with China.
Its easy to blame a system, its like having a war on terror. Terror is a feeling, you cant have a war wit ha feeling just like an economic system cant be at fault for the corruption. Its rather the opposite that the corruption is at fault for ruining the system

Yes, it's basically a conspiracy (though I hate using that word)

The "wealthy elites" that control the country do not want Socialism, because it would tax THEM more... they love Capitalism, where they write the laws and decide their own tax rate

Which is why they tell us to hate Socialism... they make it sound evil, and nothing worth investigating, so people don't even bother to research it

Bernie Sanders threw a wrench into their mind-control scheme by running for president as a Socialist... he brought Socialism attention in the USA, and had the support of nearly half the country

Which is why the elites conspired against him... as expected and evidenced by their actions long before the DNC email leak proved it

Yeah its really unfortunate he didnt win. America is so backwards sometimes. Like its great they finally elected a black president with Obama but it should have happened in the 70's with Martin Luther King. I suspect the same will be with socialism america will finally adopt it in 40 years and people will say can you imagine if we had been smart enough for this in the time of Bernie Sanders how much further along wed all be. Its sad really to have missed out on such an opportunity to turn things around. It's Al Gore and green energy all over again and now were forever behind the rest opf the world in that too.
I understand your hesitance to use the word conspiracy because of how much TV drama it implies but it is the correct word to describe the situation. "The "wealthy elites" that control the country do not want Socialism, because it would tax THEM more..."

 

You forgot to add that the red square, drunk guys, go horse bears and play the balalaika. A Russian children play with dolls. ;D in Russia have long do not build communism. China has also changed its policy

No need to build either communism or socialism, and even capitalism is not needed in a pure form. It should take just a little and build on what is necessary for ordinary people. You are right about one thing. Strengths of this world, play in their game and they do not care about ordinary people.

Honestly, I love America but america is fucking stupid is what it really comes down to. The country falls in love with words like Capitalism and acts like any other kind of ism is cheating lol

When our forefathers founded this country they made the rules to be efficient and to encourage individual progress , they weren't written by god and you need to have faith in them they were written by educated people trying to make a country that works. Our country no longer works because we no longer make our rules based on this premise, we are scared of change and we will fall behind because of this.

It's been happening for a long time

The religion thing happened because of all the wars... when loved ones get themselves killed, people turn to religion

Religious fanaticism got so popular during the 50's, they changed the national motto from E. Pluribus Unum, to In sky-god we trust

Printing "In god we trust" on the money is a particular oxymoron... the bible says, "The love of money is the root of all evil"

Jesus said blessed are the poor and the ones who have lots of money will have a hard time entering gods kingdom. Funny how the followers of him built the Vatican and corporate america.

but its not about religeon im only saying as americans we are religous about our words "Capitalism" "Democracy" Capitalism is not the answer to everything and democracy doesnt work in a mental institution. things need to have context to be accurate. our forefathers knew this and were basing their decisions on what woudl create the best way of life a tthe time and we shoukld do so also

Socialism and communism are different forms of steal from the poor to give a little to the destitute and to make the rich richer.

8)

False, but nice shades on your emoji.  ::)

Socialists and communists might be honest at the beginning, but steal from the poor and give to the rich is what happens after awhile.

8)

Did a socialist steal the shades on your emoji?  ::)

Nope. I don't go there. But obviously, they stole yours.     8)

Touche

Intelligent people understand the difference between propaganda and common sense. America just needs a few socialized programs, its fucking time already. I have a story for you, once I bought a new iPhone, I didn't need it, there was nothing wrong with my old one but I was somehow convinced I needed it. I spent 300$ signed up for a 3 year new contract and then got the same exact phone accept they moved the headphone jack from the top to the bottom. You dont want a company such as apple to taking care of your health. It shouldn't be an exclusive business, it belongs in control by our government guaranteed to all our citizens

I like your attitude. If more people had your attitude, I might be able to become rich. Why, how? Anybody with any knowledge about how the American system of government works, can easily use the courts to put government down at any time. Companies like Apple have done this so that they can find your key and sell you some stupidity. Stay stupid. I just might like to live off of it in the future... like Apple.

See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Twn96nj0jfw&list=PLHrkQxgz0mg6kUBciD-HIvTXByqjcIZ-D&index=10.

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I think that people always tend to believe in some kind of utopia world, where everybody live in joy, no worries, enough work, no stress or problems etc.
Such dream world doesn't exist.
Socialism and communism experiment failed miserably in every country and society, like Soviet Union, Cuba, N. Korea, Poland etc.
Why?
If everybody are equal and doesn't matter how much you work, your salary will be the same, eventually you will loose desire to work and make any effort.
If only state ownership exist, and product of your work don't belong to you, you will eventually loose interest in your work.
Only real competition bring progress, not utopia where everybody receive the same, and not according to results and effort involved.
Because of this capitalism is dominant ideology today in the world.
We need today social capitalism where state help people in need and support them, through state programs etc. but not again new socialist utopia.

 

for the first time being here, in like 6-7 months, I'll have to agree with BADecker.

Exactly, I believe that equality shouldn't exist in that way "everybody gets paid the same", because that can ruin interest to work. Why would you bother doing more work and trying to be more productive if you won't be paid more for that work. Not everyone is satisfied with just ENOUGH money. Also, there would be no private business opening and therefore no extra workplaces. Id you ask me, Id like to see a way/economy politics that will encourage people to work more and open up their private business, so that people who cant to work will get a chance to prove themselves and do something with their lives.

You are not right. The payment system, exact same, that socialism is that under capitalism. In both cases, the more you work, the more you get. Under socialism, everyone had to work. Unemployed, alarm. Unemployment was pristupnikov. People had to work, even if their work is not who do not need. For his work, they received the money. But in fact, the money that they received for what they were doing or who do not need things. Perhaps now you'll understand why, under socialism, it is difficult to become rich. The money was all. But these amounts are very small. Potamu that have a certain amount of money.

If you think that you are stuck in socialism in America, watch Karl Lentz talking to the cop who gave him a traffic ticket, after the trial that Karl won - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Twn96nj0jfw&list=PLHrkQxgz0mg6kUBciD-HIvTXByqjcIZ-D&index=10#t=06m55s.

We can use Karl's methods in America to get out of paying most taxes. If we did, government would dwindle down to nothing, and there would be freedom.

8)

You are not right. Competition, under socialism, was very great. Money received, all. But they all had different salaries. If you want more, you have to work harder. But people spoiled lazy. I already wrote. The man could not work, the main thing to be in the workplace. For this, the person receiving the same salary, and neither of which did not. This fact and spoiled people.

Is socialism and communism one and the same in the USA?

No not exactly you are ignoring countries such as Canada, Iceland, Finland, Sweden, Norway which are all doing absolutely amazing and have many socialized programs. you guys use flawed arguments to argue with him but that guy is right all we need is a few programs here. were not talking about making America Soviet Russia your being silly! Enough is enough no one said communism socialism is totally different and works in many places. Stop spreading misinformation by making them sound the same your hurting America

Basically, if you are poor, socialism benefits you more than anything. If you are rich, capitalism should be your choice. Nobody gives a damn other than himself/herself so everybody supports the idea which benefits them more.

I can't deny the fact that socialism is lazy people's number one choice tho.

You know what the difference between capitalism and socialism and communism? In fact, these are links in one chain. You want that you were slaves? If you do not want, then you will acknowledge socialism.

If you decide to start this dialogue. Learn to start what socialism and communism. Under socialism, all well fed. But if you want to live well, you have to work.

I have already said. It was a lot of work in order to live, man needs under socialism is good. If a person is working well, the person is popular, people has many benefits, the person has a lot of opportunities.

Socialism is a word that scares dumb Americans we have to just call it free health care and free university for stupid people to get what it is and like it

What you low level socialists don't get is that your utopia fails to allocate ressources efficiently. The free market is already leached by monetary policy, i.e. Market rate for interest aren't applied. However as you the high level believe you have to take over the whole world for your utopia to stand a chance otherwise the market forces will always be able to find new operational basis to raid, loot and exploit your utopia. For example the king Bitcoin is a definite enemy of your utopia. It unleashes freedom. So what the fuck are you doing on this forum? Please go see on the mining section (btc or Alts)... We wanna trade, create, innovate... Not be fucking employees for a salary. Some of us have build great scams, looting operations, giant mining farms, asic companies, various services... And you like the worthless human being mind controlled you come here to preach your lies... Who do you believe is stupid and ignorant enough to believe you? You are so desillusional.

And you know most countries that experienced the socialist utopia will fight hell to not experience it ever in their lives. They know too well how it ends... So good luck in Russia, China and soon once purged Venezuela... We death squad you will be welcomed.

The free market is the biggest known force in the universe because it derives from the cumulative will of the human being made by God. So fight us, we have God on our side, and trade we will even with you, we don't discriminate profit.

How much is necessary to give everyone free education and health care. But keep your bitcoin to buy what you want as you seem to think sharing is in itself a bad idea. Until you need help then you gonna die like the lonely dog you are.

Ma'am, I'm sorry, I'll tell you a few words sechas. Jerking your Bitcoin, as you like. Personally, I am on this forum, just to talk. I packed a purse and do not use it. If you are sickened by anything that does not correspond to your rules. Do not read the messages that you do not like and do not raise your voice to seniors.

I also like the idea of ​​free primary education, free medical care, free kindergartens. This is bad?! I pay my taxes in all cases. Why not send the money exactly where they are needed?

No matter what sheople and their overlords call it, it will always be "plutocracy".

Well yes, thats the problem, money isnt distributed where its the most needed. Do you think that socialism will fix that?

Actually that was the proof. Also in the Soviet Union, it was just such a distribution of the state budget. But we spoiled by thieves, who came to power. People themselves have spoiled the ideas of socialism.

What can this game of words to say? It was under socialism, was a real freedom. Yes were locked topics. But closed threads, under any political system. Some things, say, in any case, is not necessary.

Hey piece of French trash... Look at your deficit? Debt level? Income growth and disparity... Don't forget the old age health tax bomb... Oh and look at productivity... Ahaha no chance in hell to make it. How many people employed by the state with fat pension? LoL. Reform possibilities = O. Collapse certainty = 100%. Date of the collapse = unknown... Or when the market forces will be ready... And it will, the later the more violent it will.

Then in your great knowledge cite me ONE country with as much freedom of speech as America? All socialist, communist or social democracy have limit on freedom of expression or outright censorship with torture and co. Why do you think? because at the root of it there is coercion to steal other people money... America drained the brains, mind and lunatics of the world under one common banner... Speak mother fucker but don't DO trouble.

Now you don't understand the difference between sharing (aka an act of free will) and theft (no free will). Guess in which category tax fell? Only common defense is tolerable.

By having public school, you have public teaching, aka censorship and possibilities of control. Most social democracy ban HOMEschooling why? With public health care you stop innovation (btw patenting is a by product of unfree market).



Now you little worms, who do you pretend the fuck to be? To tell me not to raise my voice!?! Fuck you, return and stay in your censored socialist paradise and die there. Useless waste of water.

"Madame wait a minute, I'll tell you a few words. Do not hide your ring and bracelet. I will not do or anything bad. You see, I do not hide the gun ..." Chanson Arkady Severny. I will add on my own. Shut your filthy mouth, because it stinks worse than sewage. Do not spoil the atmosphere of the forum.

A bunch of sock commie ganging up to impose their social utopia? Addiction to failure?

I personally, and parallel to the commune and the capitalists, they are all together, of little interest to me. Anarchy is the mother of order. There's no one for you, there is no one above you. I am alone, and I am very well. You can piss boiling water. You're not interested in me.

Don't know. Socialism gives money to education and medical care. In USA all money goes to army. What's most important to you?

In the Soviet Union, a lot of money was spent on the army. But in the Soviet Union, a lot of spending on education and health care. Education, medetsina, army, were the best in the Soviet Union. But this state of affairs, many people do not like it. On this and the collapse of the Soviet Union. Now they are trying to undermine Russia

Education level in the USA is becoming very low year for year because the USA rather spend 1 trillion in defense per year (black budgets etc included).

Economic  strength comes from intellegent people. Intelligent people aren't made by free speech but by good education. Good education has to be payed by tax money else see power law distribution and game theory -> fat elites that control everything -> us American corporatism.

That is what Masha Sha supports: Corporatism - even though he is just a small uneducated peasant.

Brainwashing 101.

Peasant is the greatest compliment ever made to me... Readying for the garden of Eden:) and in the meantime off to the market to exchange values with fellow peasants ;).

The smartest people were all raised on free speech, from inside the kgb wall to the alley of America or the caligraphy of China. If you can't find your inner voice you are just a biological droid... Inputs outputs...

Education=programing.

Socialism is best defined as a method of self governing where free people work together to do anything they want, individually, with society voluntarily watching each others back, to keep crooks and criminals from hurting anybody.

8)

Thank you for restoring common send to this thread

Right. And anybody who is against a free people freely choosing socialism if that is what they want, is against freedom.

8)

No the smartest people are raised by good education.( e.g. scientist with Nobel prizes from authoritarian nations)
Free speech is one of the awesome things developed from good education.

And don't forget, Obama got the Nobel Peace Prize.     ??? ;D

H. Kissinger would be even a worst case.
But you could exchange the nobel prize with any other prize like i.e. the Fields-Medaille, it wouldnt change anything. I hope you get the gist of my argument.

Formal education isn't necessarily good education.    8)

lets just call is fascism.

Education = freedom. Not educated, stupid person is a person who can be easily controlled. Intelligent, educated man, loves to be free. Capitalism pathetic breed of freedom. For the money, you can buy a lot. But for the money, you can not buy this freedom. Knowledge is power.

Perhaps this will help to define the limited freedom that we have.

Freedom Speech Easy Rider
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/Gc11mJGre10/hqdefault.jpg?custom=true&w=196&h=110&stc=true&jpg444=true&jpgq=90&sp=68&sigh=8LEhXeEAMio4QwTLuNH6P8BR3Eg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gc11mJGre10 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gc11mJGre10)

8)

Cвoбoдa (Гaвpилa Poмaнoвич Дepжaвин)

Teплoй oceни дыxaньe,
Пoмaвaниe дyбoв,
Tиxoe лиcтoв шeптaньe,
Bocклицaньe гoлocoв
   Mнe, лeжaщeмy в дoлинe,
   Haвoдили cлaдкий coн.

Bидeл я ceбя cтoящим
Ha выcoкoм вдpyг xoлмy,
Ha плoды вдaли глядящим,
Ha шyмящy вблизь вoлнy, -
   И кaк бyдтo в вaжнoм чинe
   Я нocил нa плeчax xoлм.

Дaльшe: влacти мнe cвятыe
Игo тo вeлeли нecть,
Bce вeнцы cyля зeмныe,
Tитлa, зoлoтo и чecть.
   "Heт! - вoccтaл oт cнa глyбoкa,
   Я cкaзaл им, - нe xoчy.

He xoчy мoeй cвoбoды,
Coвecть нa мeчты мeнять;
Глaдки вoды, кoль пoгoды
Иx нe мoгyт кoлeбaть.
   Bлacть тoгдa мoя выcoкa,
   Кoль я влacти нe ищy".

Oктябpь 1803

This is true freedom!

Filthy communists and their hive mentality.They plot and scheme their wicked plans like an unrestrained virus ...wait wat,did someone mention a virus? :o

I read about the USSR and how hungry people were before the Berlin wall came down, I do not want a repeat of that with the next generation.

There a lot of hungry people in China, despite its growing economy.

Capitalism rewards hard-working people and that is a good thing. On the other hand, it also punishes lazy and dumb people. Being dumb is something you can't change easily but being lazy is definitely should be punished. Some humanitarians can say it is not something to be punished but i disagree. If you are lazy you deserve nothing. If you are dumb, just pray for that find a rich husband/wife.

Socialism rewards poor and dumb people while it punishes rich and clever people. Because those poor and dumb parasites will benefit from clever people's inventions for FREE. If you are good at something, never do it for free. Socialist dreamers will say, they don't have to do it for free but that's a lie. Their dictator will name a price on that clever person's work ant that's it. He will accept whatever the price they say.

I choose capitalism.

Socialism is designed to reward the poor and punish the rich. But it winds up punishing the poor even more by simply making the new socialist leaders into the new rich.

8)

Those shades don't make you right you know but they kind of make you look like
Morpheus from The Matrix tho. If the Matrix were socialism.

We can discuss what makes me right, later. The fact is, I am right... shades or no shades.

8)

Lol why only later? Why not discuss it now if you think you are right?

Well, why not later? Or why at all?    8)

That's such a Morpheus answer

Seeing the lionheart (super yacht) from sir green (friend of Bloomberg) I couldn't escape to feel sympathy for your socialist cause. I agree that it's outrageously a very nice boat... The numbers of 20's something having contracted STD on it must be staggering.

I understand the envy and jealousy that such an asset may create in the mind of those thinking that they will never achieve to own one.

However here is the reality behind this boat:

So the Sir green exploited explosive demographic population at just above subsistence level to produce cotton and manufacture clothes using all toxic costly efficient process (cost side) and sold them to the western liberals to pimp and raise their social status at a premium(demand side).

 How to defeat such an evil odious and pervert Sir? The ultimate weapon of the market: your pursue. Rather than being a consumer drone buying shit from a shitlord, buy expensiver longer lasting morally clean clothes. And so the upkeep of his boat and related asset will finish him.

The market can make or brake anything and even defeat the USA as proven in the drug war. The will of man.

Another aspect that the oligarchic handlers of the socialist movements don't want you to understand is the role of patenting. The revolution is open source.

The trick of revolution is the direction of revolution.

Do you revolt from bad to good? or from good to bad? Which direction is good and which direction is bad?

If people could see the answer to these questions, revolutions would change, because most people want to do good. They often don't know when they are doing the bad.

8)

Socialism isn't really the question. People are "socialistically" minded creatures. Look at all the cellphone messaging being done. Look at the friends that meet at churches, restaurants and bars, to say nothing about get-togethers and outings. Socialism is something that people like.

The thing that makes it bad is when some evil people recognize this nature in people, and use people's nature to steal from them without their even knowing it. This is what government does.

8)

Socialism is more better specially if your leader is charactirize by this kind of person because if your leader is socialist he is an open minded person and a very approachable person, he knows what is the problem of the poor person and also the rich person. He has two society the rich society and the poor society. He is a successful person but he brought his heart in his successful life. Socialism is not communism why? The difference of this is Communism hates rich people and love power while Socialism hates oligarch persons and dont have interest in power I mean he believes in destiny and socialist person is believe in god while communist person do not believe in god.

soacialism always ends up as communism... "socialist person is believe in god while communist person do not believe in god." well from all the intervies and protests I;ve seen, I can surely say that todays "socialists" share the same opinion on that question..

Maybe in your experience but we are experiencing a guy who is a socialist. He is pro poor and he hates oligarch persons not a rich persons therebis a big difference between rich and oligarch persons. Rich persons refers to those person earn there money by not expensing the poor people for example bill gates while oligarch persons refers to those person earn there money by the expense of the poor people or let say they destroy the livelihood of the poor for there own interest example of this are illegal miners.

Socialism has no link with communism...
It's like saying capitalism always ends up becoming fascism. .. it has no link whatsoever ><

Socialism is nice in theory but practically doesn't work.
It can work until all money is spend.
After that country collapse and long time of recovery is needed.
Perfect example right now is Venezuela.
Country so rich with oil but economy collapsed and people don't have even enough food to eat.
If you read books from some communists (Engels, Lenin), you will know that they said that first step before ideal, communist world, will be socialism.

Socialism in some form has to do with everything that people do. Probably the greatest urge in life is for a man and a woman to get together and have children. This is a form of socialism. Then, families get together to do great projects, or to protect each other from natural disaster, or to protect each other from warring forms of socialism in other socialistic groups.

Communism is simply a form of socialism. Democracy is another form. Capitalism is another. The religions are others.

We are simply socialistic creatures. Seldom do you find a happy hermit who has no contact whatsoever with any other person. Watch the movie "Cast Away" with Tom Hanks to see what happens without socialism... and even Tom had to have "Wilson," his volley ball, on which he pained a face.

8)

I would argue that capitalism has some serious flaws...

It inevitably leads to corruption of the government by money... inevitable...

Capitalism leads to an Oligarchy... like America... where corporations write the laws, then bribe congress to pass the laws (Obamacare, TPP, etc)...

That's how America works right now... America is an Oligarchy... because that's what happens to Capitalist countries

Dumb comment...
Socialism principle is redistribution  of growth. There is no possibility of "money being all spent"....

And main problem is that capitalism works on growth, and infinite growth in a finite world is not possible. It doesn't work, why everyone is praising capitalism when it can obviously not work...

Capitalist countries also tend to have tons of debt based spending... which causes hyperinflation of the currency

USA is good(?) at hiding their overspending... well... was good at it...

The Federal Reserve has never been audited, so we have no idea how much money they spend without telling us...

The Pentagon was audited for the first time ever... the audit showed they lied about $TRILLIONS... spending money without receipts... Over $8.5 Trillion in 2015 alone! (their budget is $600 Million)

The military spent more than 14x their budget (more than double the entire US budget... $3.25Trillion collected in taxes in 2015)!  Without receipts to show it is a legitimate expense! And we aren't even at war with anyone?!?

This is what causes hyperinflation... when your government spends more than they collected in taxes... (spending money you don't have lowers its value)

http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/2015/03/19/85-Trillion-Unaccounted-Should-Congress-Increase-Defense-Budget (http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/2015/03/19/85-Trillion-Unaccounted-Should-Congress-Increase-Defense-Budget)

Bernie Sanders. That's why. :)

Im joking,
 But all jokes aside, how about free healthcare.

theoretically , socialism and comunism are the best regime on earth. people are economically equal in those regimes but somethings arent like that in reality. socialist and communist regimes can easily evolve to dictatorship some time after. for that reason, these regimes dont work on earth.

But we are not all equal.

Any regime can turn into a dictatorship (most already have)... that has nothing to do with the style of government or economic policies, and everything to do with "power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely"

You cannot have any form of government without people in charge... those people always end up corrupted... faster in a Capitalism environment than a Socialist one...

I'll even give an example... USA (capitalist) vs Iceland (socialist)...

The bankers in both countries destroyed the economy... in USA, we gave the bankers a get out of jail free card and $50,000,000,000 bailout...

In Iceland... they threw the bankers in prison for causing the disaster
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2016-03-31/welcome-to-iceland-where-bad-bankers-go-to-prison (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2016-03-31/welcome-to-iceland-where-bad-bankers-go-to-prison)

That's the difference between socialism and capitalism... the corruption is much worse in capitalism...

Socialism = government by the people, for the people
Capitalism = government for sale to the highest bidder (corporations and wealthy donors)

All the people of socialism use capitalism... all of them, everywhere, in one form or another.

8)

Why any system? not kidding its a serious question, why choose any system? We just need components of socialism to be mixed into the system we already have

I think socialism can never work perfectly because people in control always tend to be corrupt and they have a lot of advances over normal people in socialist countries. the perfect economic system should be a mixur between capitalism and socialism like in some Scandinavian countries

When you and your family work together for the benefit of the family only, is this not socialists at work.
Millions of people do this, and are hypocritical of what they see as some kind of stigma , and are afraid of it, mainly westerners.

When you help a friend out, or just a stranger, you are unconsciously aware of socialism, but do not fathom this out in your day to day brains, esp when stuck in the current mindset of those that have been taught to think it is evil, even Russian the bogey man when in fact it lives within all of us, socialism that is.

Socialism. The big, bad word that scares the bejeebies out of conservatives, right-wingers and, well, basically anyone that walks through life with blinders on. (https://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/3/13/1370620/-75-Reasons-Not-to-Fear-Socialism)

Because when the robots take your jobs you will be screaming for it ;D..

Security. Without a system nobody checks critical resources such as nuclear plants. We created machines we can't control, we have to take care of them.

No it doesn't. Karl Marx, the communist philosopher had this idea, but he was wrong on many fronts. Norway has a socialist system, they are doing well economically and have no plan to become communist.

Any system can become a dictatorship, even a capitalist democracy (Germany 1939).

Well, to be fair

Norway has shitloads of oil

Actually, all the Nordic countries do

Ireland has a good system  :)

Still pushing that error in your thinking?  Okay-dokie.

Hyperinflation is the direct result of full employment and people wanting to dump money, instead of keeping and saving it.

Government spending isn't the cause of hyperinflation.

Read http://dyingofmoney.com/

The book is out of print but available on Scribd if I recall right.

If robots take all the jobs, nobody will have any money to buy the products robots make, and the robot system will crash.

If robots take all the jobs, and all the people go on welfare, people will be able to afford anything they want, freely... even to work if they want to work.

Think of it. Free travel. Free homes. Free everything. Robots repairing themselves without people. Live a life of ease. Do whatever you want.

Why are you so negative. Of course, you will be free to be negative when robots support us, so go ahead.

8)

Let's be honest. Its not necessarily the systems that are right or wrong but, the fact that there are people that corrupt these systems. I'm not saying that these systems are equal per say but, when something goes wrong it can usually be traced back to someone that was trying to get the upper hand.

I personally prefer capitalism because, it holds everyone accountable for their actions. In a 100% functioning capitalist system, if I work my ass off and make all the right moves then I will reap the benefits.

Where did i say all ;)..You said the word ALL ;D..

So why are you so negative ;)
Of course, you will be free to be negative when robots support us, so go ahead. ;D

Oh and i never voted on that poll you had just in case your wondering ;D..
I like your post even though they are nuts :D :D..

I liked the honey post i went and bought a big tub of BUCKWHEAT HONEY honey :D..
It suppose to be better than manuka..So i bought 1.4kg of raw buckwheat honey for 16 pounds

That manuka cost a fortune for 340g 16 pounds for the queen bee manuka umf..
So i done some research and scientist say buckwheat is just as good if not better..
So i thought i give it a try for a month and mix a spoon full with me barley grass powder drink and see if i feel and look any better..Not that i could look any better than i already do 8) 8).. :D :D..

Anyway av a nice day and i will tell you if the buckwheat honey done any good ;D

Oh i forgot to mention did you know honey never goes off you can eat it 3000 years later ;)..
I never knew this till 2 days ago..
And me and my wife have threw many jars away thinking been in cupboard for 8 months so must be off and i could never find the best before label on jar  ::) silly me..
Sometimes used it to cover meat then roast mostly at Christmas..

So just in case someone decides to throw it away don't it will keep..

Theoretically, socialism is one of the best system for society. Practically many of the European nations currently are already practicing it successfully. Communism is a socialism with higher degree of state control which was much needed in highly populated countries with large number of working lower class in the late 20th century.

The ONLY socialism that works for the benefit of the people, is where people are free to socialize or not, based on their own, personal discretion.

8)

So who pays your pension?..SOCIALISM ;D..
You Americans already have socialism just you wont admit it?..
You seem to think your just a capitalist country..

In the United States, Social Security is primarily the Old-Age, Survivors, and Disability ... Income derived from Social Security is currently estimated to keep roughly 20% of all Americans, age 65

So be careful what you wish for because when you get old you will get nothing  ;D..
But i suppose you only want socialism when it suits you..Like when you get old or sick..

So i am glad your mummy and daddy helped you through your life to not need socialism
but some children's mummy and daddies are not up to scratch and that is were socialism is needed..

But i know you will be praying for socialism very soon ;)..

When you go to confession remember to take some coins with you so you can talk to the computer vicar in the confession box..50 cents for 10 mins chat..Robot vicars :D :D..

You sound like you are downplaying freedom.

Everybody lives in socialism except for the hermit on the mountain. You know, the critter who doesn't "socialize," or partake of "society."

If I want to be the hermit on the mountain, don't stop me. If I want to limit my socialism in any other way, don't stop me. If you stop me against my will, you are using slavery. Is that what you want? Watch out. Slavery works both ways.

8)

Once again, who would've thought, I have to agree with BADecker. Socialism is a "good" idea on paper but it's terrible in practise. And don't tell me about "real" socialism or such, because that's stupid.

What I neglected to mention is that much of socialism is informal socialism. Any two people who get together for any project, or even just to have a quick conversation, are participating in informal socialism.

People are socialistic creatures. Most don't want the hermit lifestyle. But few want to give up all their freedom. The right kind of socialism allows differences in socialistic levels for all people at the same time. The thing about this form of socialism is that it is natural, not governmentally dictated. And it shouldn't be governmentally distributed.

8)

Glad to see lost interest in this filthy communist thread  ;D

Why socialism? Because you need it. Watch the movie to see what socialism can do for you.


La Guerre Du Feu (Quest for Fire)
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/1olqYFMZ7Hg/hqdefault.jpg?sqp=-oaymwEjCPYBEIoBSFryq4qpAxUIARUAAAAAGAElAADIQj0AgKJDeAE=&rs=AOn4CLCEzLbdW002-FuUVpG3YcH9Pzt5Wg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1olqYFMZ7Hg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1olqYFMZ7Hg)



 :D

Watch out Kulaks, they are coming for you again.

"47% of Strong Socialist Sympathizers Say Violence against the Rich Is Sometimes Justified"

https://www.cato.org/publications/survey-reports/what-americans-think-about-poverty-wealth-work#overview

This is ridiculous!

How can 80% of Americans feel that "violence is never justified against the richs"??

You're the citizens of a country that has nearly never known peace, that has part of its constitution ensuring that you always have the means to defend yourself, but you're against violence when it comes to rich people??

You don't see the contradiction here? xD

Any normal human being should answer that violence can be justified. There are cases where violence is the only answer. Otherwise what's the point of your guns?

Any rational worker would understand his predicament and would do anything in his power to change it.  Investment, education, looking for better places to sell their skills, starting their own business to sell their skills and abilities, saving money comes to mind.

You cannot blame the system for the actions of irrational workers. 

Workers in today's capitalist societies have more choices than ever before in history.  The same cannot be said about communist societies.
There is no mechanism for a worker in the communist society to become financially independent.  The communist system explicitly prohibits it.
Remember the famous rule from both the Soviet constitution and the Bible: "He who does not work, shall not eat".

It is good to see our Frenchineer mini Stalin in training mOgliE again. The right to bear arms is for self defense, not killing rich people. There is a difference between self defense, and hunting down all the kulaks for having more than you.

Thanks for the mini Stalin, I'm an alt of Cracked5 though, not mOgliE but I guess for you all left French are the same.

It doesn't matter, the question is clear: is violence against rich people justified?

The correct answer is thus "yes sometimes". Because if rich people attack you need to defend yourself.

Answering "no never" can only imply two things:
1/ you suck it up so much to rich people that if they attack you you spread your ass more
2/ you think rich people will never ever attack you

You suggest good alternatives to being a wage worker but wage workers don't have access to these alternatives because they don't have the money or time to make the change. 

Wage workers depend on their wages.  They can't just stop working to start their own business because they depend on that wage to get their next meal and make their next rent payment. In the labor market, there is always a greater supply than demand so wages are constantly suppressed and there is no free time to do the things you are mentioning.

How can someone get education when education is not free and their wage is their only source of income.   Avoiding starvation and homelessness is not irrational. 

*Ignoring soviet strawman*

10 seconds google search:

https://www.affordablecolleges.com/rankings/community-colleges/

Most offer state grants. Welding, electrician, plumbing professions are way better than some 'wage' jobs at retail or a fast food joint.

For those more ambitious, accounting, business administration, followed by scholarships to universities. 

Don't tell me you cannot find a solution.  Tell me you don't want to look, that I will believe you.

If you say so. The leftist French are especially retarded, so I wouldn't be surprised but I have my doubts. So do you ask for a pay stub before defending yourself from attackers? The correct answer is to defend yourself, period. We all know the left advocates proactive violence though, and that's what this survey is asking, so your cute little word games are irrelevant.

^Its not proactive.  Excessive wealth and hoarding is already a form of violence.  Mitigating that is defense of said violence.
1.Well thats just cute but what about people who can't get into the country?

2. What about the people in the country who can't afford to pay rent without working, even if their tuition is paid for by a grant, where will they live?

3. How will they eat?

4. who will take care of their kids?

5. What about the people whose bosses won't give them flexible hours to attend classes and study?

and then when they graduate they are back working a (slightly better) job where their labor value is still being stolen and they are paid a higher wage.  Starting your own company in an established industry (the kind you are taught about in college) requires an immense amount of capital.  W

6. Where will this capital come from?  

7. How will they compete with huge corporations that offer more competitive prices because they have the advantage of stealing labor value from thousands of workers?

8. What if they get sick at any point in the process?

If you can magically jump through those eight hurdles, there are definitely opportunities in the market that some poor people can rise into and fill but this is an extremely competitive path and only the most outstanding individuals will earn their way to freedom.  That is the exception not the rule.  Most of the poor are stuck poor regardless of what they choose.

Whatever you say terrorist. Enjoy the kulak hunt. Too bad this time the kulaks are armed to the teeth.

re: 1. They can seek opportunities in their own country or immigrate to other countries where there are more opportunities for them.  Learning foreign languages is always very important.  Free resources are available on the Internet.
re: 2. Banks give student loans
re: 3. noodles and crackers for few years, basically subsisting.
re: 4. Give up their kids for adoption, they should not have had kids to begin with.  It was very irresponsible for them to have kids, to begin with.
re: 5. You change the job. Or quit altogether and find a part-time job while attending school full time.
re: 6. The state and the loans from the banks.
re: 7. Wow, before you can compete with large corporations, you need to upgrade your intangible capital, your skills.  BTW, the profit margins of large corporations are dismal, as a small service business, you can undercut them price-wise very easily.
re: 8. They have to get better, then continue when they get better.

I jumped through all of these hoops except for the #4, all without the Internet.

maybe not :( :( :( :(

Oh so you have to read between the lines in a poll? That tells a lot of the quality of the poll.

So in fact when the question is, as stated in your source, "is the use of violence against rich people justified?" the real question is "is the use of PROACTIVE violence and not in a case of seld defense against rich people justified?"

Ok great, there is no way that such a shitty question can change the results of course.

I have an idea, why bothering with questions? Next time juste say "on a poll of myself, 100% liberals eat babies for breakfast".

It will be easier.

How do you know that 100% of the liberals eat babies? Oh, yeah: https://www.naturalnews.com/2019-10-13-aoc-nods-in-agreement-people-eat-their-babies.html and https://www.naturalnews.com/2019-10-06-impossible-to-tell-difference-real-leftists-fake-plants.html.

Thanks.

8)

well if you look at brexit uk that is being pushed by the right winger captialism/nationalism/exploitation, you see that it also doesnt work.

Because those who do not learn from history's mistakes are bound to repeat them

There is no "reading between the lines", this is self evident. If you are under violent attack, you don't stop to check the assailant's wallet first before defending yourself, thus your premise of self defense is totally asinine. Additionally Socialists and Communists LOVE redefining words to suit their purposes at any given time, such as words being "violence" or "hoarding wealth" being "violence".

For example:


There is no mystery here. This poll demonstrates Socialists are proponents of proactive violence based on their warped ideology and mental illness. This is literally indistinguishable from terrorism, and falls well within the federal legal definition of terrorism.

because the left is powerless, socialism and communism will always exist except we return to preurban and preindustrial barbarism.

Then the only possible answer to the poll is "yes, sometimes violence is justified against rich people".

Because you can be attacked by rich people. Then you have to defend yourself.

You godmotherfucking Americans should know this better than anyone. Great depression, legal slavery of the poors, private polices of mining companies actually shooting at workers who tried to protest? No? Doesn't ring a bell?

So yeah, the answer is clearly yes. Answering anything else is stupid and only show how you bend yourself and spread your ass for your masters. Or how you have no clue anything happened before 1980.

Now you are just repeating yourself. Any claims of self defense are asinine and just an attempt at disguising the wide spread prevalence of violent terrorist inclinations of Socialists.

This thread is a freakin train wreck. The majority don't know the difference between socialism, socialist and communism. Wow.

In my opinion the philosophy of socialism does not work,we are not all the same and we must not all earn equal but based on our own skills and competency (capitalism)

Socialism is just the earliest stages of communism. The ideologies are indistinguishable and are only different in a matter of degree.

Exactly, and it turned out that this experiment failed in every state where they tried to apply it.
USSR, Poland, Yugoslavia, Romania etc.
In China, they also had to embrace capitalism,also in Cuba, and Venezuela went bankrupt after its failed experiment with socialism.
Socialism simply has a systemic fault in its philosophy and can't succeed.
Also, socialism is responsible for a large number of people killed and the most horrific crimes in human history, as the crimes of Stalin in the USSR or Mao in the cultural revolution in China.
People are just not equal and they never will be.
A fair system should give everyone an equal chance and be socially righteous.

That's marxist theory, not a fact. One of the problems with something like "socialism" is that there can be different forms and degrees but people jump to assuming the extremes. The thing that's always struck me as odd though, is that the US for example already has some socialism and there's no way the majority would want to get rid of any of it and yet "socialism bad" is the mantra. The reality though is that it's not a question of having it, it's simply of how far to take it. I suppose the issue really comes down to culture. Which culture will win out in the end. The one that wants to put people first, or the one that wants to put money first. I don't rally want to see either side "win" but instead reach a balance that works far better than it currently is.

Its a fake argument.  Epitome of strawman.  No socialist or communist party believes everyone is the same or should all earn equal.  You won't find that in any socialist/marxist/communist literature.  You won't find anything like that in the platform of any modern socialist/communist party.   Its really strange how a fake argument could be so widespread.   

Nope, it is also fact. Socialism creates a feedback cycle that creates ever more demand for socialism until it transforms into full communism and then collapses into horrible loss of life and war. History demonstrates this.

Really!?
I lived in one former communist country and they told me exactly that, at school and on TV, that socialism is fairer and better than capitalism because all people are equal in socialism.
Are you saying they lied to us?

I was speaking about literature and present day parties, and wasn't denying the existance of perversions of the ideology.  I don't know what you saw as a kid but are you sure it wasn't "everyone is treated equally" because everyone having equal worth/rights as a human, equal power in democracy and equal treatment under the law is very often misinterpreted as "everyone is the same and makes the same paycheck". 

But if you're basing your world view off of what you saw in school and on tv as a child, you're already off-base anyway.

Don't bother using logic with this one. He has no logos and operates totally on ethos. He knows more about Socialism and Communism than people who have lived under Socialism and Communism, he knows more about poverty than the homeless, and he just knows better than you, because he is an academic with a privileged Western upbringing, and you know what they say about academics right? "If you can't do, teach."

So what now? Are you saying that the Warsaw Pact countries were not communist?

Rewriting history, aren't we?

Do you think you can do a better job than the KGB?  You can talk nonsense about equality and inequality ad nauseam, but do you think you would be able to organize and run a communist state?  If you think you can, you are delusional.

NKVD types could not do it, and a snowflake raised in the US can?

What is your aim in all of this?  Fame? Saviour complex?  Megalomania?

Do you think you are "the ONE" to save the planet?

If you think you are, I suggest you hire a team of psychiatrists to work on you 24/7, one professional is not enough.

Why would you ask those questions?  I have never posted anything that should lead someone to believe I think those things.  

Well a communist and communism aren't the same thing. You don't have to achieve communism to be a communist but I don't even believe those people had communism in mind. I can't know what was in their mind but the actions of some of the leaders were egotistical and not what any of us would ideologically align with.  It also was a long time ago, and they were coming from systems that were more like that.  Its such an apples to oranges comparison that its not really worth dwelling on something so different that happened so long ago.    I also don't believe communism will be feasible in our lifetime.  People born in the world now are not capable of living in a communist system because they have developed such a scarcity mindset.  It will require a slow transition (socialism) before communism can even be attempted.  Once socialism heals the wounds of the human mindset created by capitalist induced scarcity, communism will just happen.  

Under socialism induced conditions, no one will need to force policies onto people and there will be no need for a centralized state, just democracy through community council.

The first step, the next best step, and the only current step I have ever advocated for from our current system is social democracy.  Its not just the next logical step, it has a track record of success and the best quality of life indicators.  I don't advocate for anything that isn't backed by research

Communism is an end goal.  Its like saying we want to colonize mars some day.  That doesn't mean every mission involves a person trying to permanently live on Mars.  Its something way off in the future that isn't even within reach right now.  I'm not the leader and never claimed to be the leader.  My aim is simply to show you guys other perspectives because you are laser focused on one perspective without even realizing theres a different way.

I'm not a politician but grassroots movements that will benefit the masses are all about a ton of people raising awareness and sharing information with other people.  Thats how movements work. I see myself as one of those hundreds of millions of people.  

Good for them. They saw what socialism leads to and it was enough for them to learn. Like a child who once touches a flame learns for a lifetime.

It won't happen. Socialism is such a bad system that it will turn on itself before it can reach a transition into communism. Building communism through socialism is like going from living in a cardboard box to building a house out of cardboard boxes.

Keep on dreaming. There will always be a fat pig to take the chair and then make some more chairs for its friends and family.

Can you state what countries that doesn't work because of socialiam? Because I doubt it wasn't working. There are a lot of countries that improved because of socialism. As we all know, socialosm is a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole. This shows balance or equality compared to communism.

They're not. It's the extreme left that is pushing for a lot more socialism and it's only the extreme radical left that might say communism but I rarely see that sort of thing. As for it not working? There are plenty of countries where more socialism is working just fine for them so the argument about it not working is false. I'm curious though. Which countries do you think work without having any socialism at all?

Except that socialism is working fine in the narrow view. The wide view shows that socialism success is based on relations with capitalistic USA.

8)

I'll just assume what you're trying to say is that everyone is trading with the US and so has plenty of money in order to fund stuff. If it wasn't the US, some other country would be the one with all the money. i.e. it used to be Rome. it used to be the UK. Even so, it has little to do with the US and purely the strength of your economy etc. Lots of people these days love to point to Venezuela and it's failure. But really, those in charge were morons and put all their eggs in one basket. They viewed oil prices in the same way wall street viewed the housing bubble leading up to 2008. Saying their socialism proves it's a failure when they were inept is just foolish.

Side note, the US is "mostly" capitalistic. You might be surprised to see who ranks #1 in terms of the most capitalistic. The USA is 18th. Note how many countries that are more capitalistic then the US, also have more socialism.

https://www.thebalance.com/capitalism-characteristics-examples-pros-cons-3305588

You would be wrong assuming that.

Who is doing the ranking, and what are the standards that they rank by? You can make ranking say anything that you want.

Socialism failure is based on communication and information. For example, it is the China Government that is trying to censor the people in all the ways that they can. Why? They want formal, government controlled socialism... so they can capitalize on Chinese slaves, the Chinese people. It is communication with people around the world that is showing the Chinese people that social freedom is the way to go. Hong Kong had it from the British, and they don't want to lose it back to the Chinese government. The Hong Kong riots.

All people are trying to make more money... get more ownership of valuable things. Where do they look? Communication shows them the people of the USA and other free peoples of the world... where socialism is controlled by the people individually, and where capitalism is quite free for the people, individually, as well, and where the government sits back and cries because they can't take social and capital control from the people.

In fact, Bitcoin is the people breaking away from the social and capitalistic controls of the government.

8)

You're not the person I was responding to so you can't correct my assumption. i.e. you don't know what he thinks.

Why don't you go read it as it says where that info came from instead of those useless sentences. I will tell you though that one of the sources is a well known US conservative group.

Says who? You? The rest of your comment was worthless drivel centered around some misplaced point of view. Go find some real analysis of socialism failures and quote that instead of making stuff up.

I'd like some of the coolaid you're drinking. Governments have already started to exert control over bitcoin and all crypto through things like the SEC and KYC. It will continue.

I understand. Simply slapping a label on someone so you can justify in your mind dismissing what they say is a good tactic for those that don't want to look outside their little bubble. Carry on then.

I think it's quite the opposite. Give inept leaders to socialism, get catastrophic economic results. This is at the least, a flaw of socialistic systems.

It's been noted before, numerous times historically. EG, Russia and their famous "Five Year Plans."

They'll arrest you without that label, except maybe if you get yourself over to the nudist camp.

8)

We're just going to pretend GDP is all that matters and ignore the CIA meddling + US embargo and sanctions. 
https://en.actualitix.com/chart/ven/venezuela-human-development-index.png

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opQ1_O-TXmY

Socialism has its own advantage when coming to social equality and economic planning. It focuses on reducing wealth disparities, also helps in price controls , inflation anf unemployment. It also includes ability to mske good use of land , labor and resources. It also takes care of excess or insufficient production.

Socialism good. Socialism do good things I like. Socialism is make poor not poor. Socialism efficient. Y U NO want socialism?

Socialism in indeed important and preferred by states to prevent giving too much power to corporates and private players. It takes care of unemployment, price fluctuation, inflation. Beside that it handles laws of land and labor and also takes care of the citizens.

Society is needed to govern the state and we need socialism to eliminate capitalism and slavery from this society Socialism manages the issue of eliminating unemployment etc in order to protect the balance of our society Many do not support this but I think the only purpose of socialism is to work for the welfare of the whole people.

Socialism makes sure not to give power in hands of private players and large players who contribute to GDP of the nation. While any government wont want that , socialism also makes sure to keep price under control , handle inflation and related unemployment. It also protects the people of the country by safegaurding land and labor laws.

Everything you said is incorrect.

The dictator is a large player, especially the ruling class.

Socialist countries tend to have enormous amounts of inflation, look at Venezuela for example
My country was a part of socialist ex Yugoslavia which also issued million Dinar bills and had 2000% inflation rates.

They only hide the unemployment by hiring people in non-existing positions that aren't actually needed.

They expropriate land from the people.

Its a strawman.  no one is "pushing for" the ideas and policies that haven't worked in the past.  

No one "pushes for" starvation, totalitarianism, and genocide. It arises out of failed policy. You are the one using a straw man.

Your nickname "coins4commies" determined that was a lie.

You're correct (today) except you don't know what a strawman is.  No one is pushing for failed policies but you are creating an imaginary group of people who are supporting failed policies to ridicule these imaginary people for supporting said failed policies.  The people don't exist thus are built out of straw and can easily be destroyed.

I said today because genocide has definitely been "pushed for" in the past
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifest_destiny
just one of many examples

They aren't imaginary. They are very real. For example you. All of the arguments you make in favor of socialism and communism have been made before and resulted in starvation, totalitarianism and genocide. An example of a real straw man is what you just did here mentioning some people did push for genocide as if it is relevant to the fact that genocide doesn't require mal intent on the part of its planners.

Great related videos:
"#31 The Origins of Communism and Its Tactics | China Unscripted"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwPScbShR_0

"#55 How Communism Destroys a Society | Joshua Philipp"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjBUPB009Qo

Its why you insist on keeping the discussion general by oversimplifying everything to "socialism vs capitalism".  By avoiding talking about actual policies, you're able to perpetuate the strawman that people are supporting failed policies of the past.  When our policies are actually laid out for you, you always say "no thats capitalism" which is evidence that you know no one is pushing for the policies you're referring to when you talk about socialism.

Everything that doesn't involve the state is capitalism.
It's because your policies involve coercion, which capitalists aren't very fond of.
We believe in individual liberties.

Thats just a bad definition of capitalism.  The word you were looking for is anarchism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-capitalism#Somalia_from_1991_to_2006

 The problem with your equation, is that many of the stateless societies are on the left.  You have Zapatistas in Mexico and Rojava in Kurdistan both with left-leaning economies.  More famously, you had the Paris commune which was established by anarcho-socialists. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_anarchist_communities#Mass_societies

Anarchy loving capitalists should go live in Somalia because its probably the closest country to being aligned with your values.

an = without, arch = rulers

Anarchism literally means without rulers, not without rules, not without a state. Your definition of "anarchism" is a protocommunist state pretending to be anarchism while some how collectivizing at the same time. Actual anarchism and socialism are not at all compatible, but socialists and communists love wearing the skin of other movements and organizations to subvert them toward their own goals. Anyone I have ever talked to who calls themselves "anarchist" is just a confused and or dishonest socialist.

Perhaps you should read bookchin or at least get a basic understanding about how some of these places operate or their philosophy before coming to those blanket conclusions.  Purely democratic states do not involve rules or a state.  Just groups of people agreeing to do things together with voluntary participation. 

There are good and right ideas in any political system. For example, in modern democratic capitalist states there is freedom of speech, there is a reasonable freedom that is useful to all mankind. But there are also negative aspects - this is a ban on the prohibition of bad and destructive parties. So it is in the socialist countries of the past and present. There are both good and bad.

At the moment, there are no examples of the right productive and reasonable state. However, we can take all the best from all examples. I am sure that everything is possible, and in the future everything will become even better than now.

What the fuck does this have to do with anything that I said? Also groups of people agreeing to do things are also known as rules, but don't let that stop you from butchering the definitions of words over and over again to fit a square peg into your communist hole.

I feel a capitalist society can be dangerous and selfish if given too much power. Specially when such society gets controlled by few conglomerate of private players. Socialism leads to equality and does not let power into private players. Indeed a good government is required to beer fruits from socialist society. Socialism , beside taking care of equality also takes care of price fluctuation, inflation and keeps a check on unemployement.

Anarcho-socialism is just another word for communism.
How can you be stateless with public education and taxes?  ;D ;D
The Paris commune had taxes as well and Rojava has public education financed by those taxes.

Somalia is also a state where many statists fight to be the only dictator.
Here's the Somali law
https://i0.wp.com/memepoliceman.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Somalia3.jpg?w=759&ssl=1

Wow, such anarchy  ;D

Most likely this is a blind faith in utopia

You are forgetting about one thing.  95% of people are complete idiots.

In a true democracy, you would not be able to agree which leaves to use to wipe your ass.
Never mind running a complex society.

No matter the political system, you need leaders, you need a ruling class.

Socialism makes almost everyone as poor as a church mouse.

We need meritocracy, not socialism.

You're right without education because democracy can only work well with a highly educated population

But people are lazy, we have seen it in so many societies in the past. Once wealth (i.e. land, resources, other forms of power) is accumulated it will always be easier for the following generations just ot live off that wealth and redistritubte it. Socialism sounds so nice for most of the people, why not increase your standard of living without actually doing anything? Wouldn't it be nice to get a lot of benefits for free?

Of course socialism will fail in the long run, but this might be after your time. So why bother? In Europe socialism is spread everywhere - it's so sad =/

people are not lazy.  they are sick and depressed from alienation. 

Socialism is not appealing to ambitious and motivated people who want to do better than everyone else.

You draw your conclusions.

BTW, in socialism, all people are either sick or depressed.

The idea itself is sick.

Socialism doesn't stop anyone from doing better than everyone else.  the people who are motivated by watching poor people suffer are psychopaths or themselves sick and depressed due to alienation.   It manifests itself in many ways but this attitude that "If no one can suffer, then theres no motivation of me doing anything great" is sad.

You are motivated by watching what rich people do and listening to what they say.

Watching poor people is depressing and demotivating.

Life is a struggle, no matter how rich or poor you are.

Giving stuff for free is demotivating.  

Being hungry (literally and figuratively) is motivating.  If it is not motivating you, you have some mental issues.

People who advocate socialism and/or communism are mentally retarded and lazy as fuck, IMHO.

Malnutrition in childhood impairs cognitive development and when you make statements about mental issues like this, it shows that you don't understand the effects of hunger.  Poor children deal with PTSD and the cumulative negative health affects of stress throughout the rest of their lives. 

You also contradicted yourself.  Having basic necessities does not make anyone rich.  If watching rich people is what motivates poor people, they can still do it without being hungry. 

and if you doubt what I'm saying, all you have to do is look at the US and the motivation of our poor then look at a country like Denmark where all of the basic necessities are free and compare the "motivation/laziness" of their bottom 10% to our bottom 10%

Good health and Education is the best motivation.

I am positive a 100% socialist system would not be welcome among libertarians especially true bitcoiners or even the average citizen.Consider the fact that in a 100% socialist system all the land is by default in state ownership and the marxists will only allow you to ever lease a property from the state so no matter how hard you work or innovate you will NEVER own your home or if you are a farmer you will NEVER own your land and will simply be a leaseholder (until you can no longer be a leaseholder because you cannot compete with industrial producers and pay the lease).
Socialism is NO DIFFERENT than any other hierarchical  system like colonialism or fascism (corporatism) which the marxists hypocritically endorse.China would still a third world shit hole if it wasn't for western capitalist consumption of their products.The only reason they succeeded is due to horrendous working conditions and low wages making them competitive and attractive in an industrial slave factory system of output.Marxists ALWAYS sell lies (selling it to disadvantaged and disgruntled populations) to window dress whats actually whats really for sale on the shop floor.MARXISTS are the destroyers of all human civilization and the enemies of humanity.

Thats demonstrably false.  In fact, you have it backwards.  Home ownership is at 92% in vietnam, 90% in China and Cuba, and only 65% in the US.  People own their homes but lease land for 50-100 years and renew when the lease is up.  In the rare case the government needs to use the land for public good like building a power plant, they pay the people to relocate and lease somewhere else.  Same as eminent domain.  There is no property tax for owning a home in Vietnam. In Shanghai, its .4% of 70%of the value  Compare that with the US where even though you "own" the land you are paying high amounts of state taxes (~3% per year) plus local taxes forever.  Those taxes amount to much greater costs than the cost of land lease hence why so many more people own homes in countries with socialist land laws.

There you go, lying as usual, but here contradicting your self and stumbling over your own lies. They don't own ANYTHING. They have a lease, and may or may not have the opportunity to renew. In fact, the nicer they make their home, the more likely it is for the local communist reps to take it away and give it to their favored son-in-law etc.

So really, the reason to favor socialism is if you want and like to take things away from other people, right?


More lies. Many states in the US charge 0.5-1.0% per year of value for property taxes. Whether the charge is this low rate or perhaps 3% depends on whether the state collects income taxes or not.


Has East Berlin ever recovered? That's a pretty empirical matter. Before, during and after communism...

Typical left wing commie trying to convince people white is black and vise versa.You NEVER own your property in a commie country.The terms and conditions ensure you are NEVER the outright free holding owner with Inalienable/natural Rights.You only have legal rights that can be changed anytime by the state :)

Example:A citizen who possesses land through the right of inheritable possession may gratuitously lease it to another for a fixed term, but he is not permitted to sell or pledge the land or enter into any other transaction that involves the transfer of the land plot. By virtue of these restrictions, perpetual use and inheritable life possession interests do not constitute private ownership. Accordingly, they are not constitutionally protected against government actions that infringe upon them. Moreover, the rights can be terminated by the state without due process procedures.


Does communism work in practice? Next, we'll take a look at the father of communism.

Phase 1: A revolution must take place in order to overthrow the existing government. Marx emphasized the nee­d for total destruction of the existing system in order to move on to Phase 2.
Phase 2: A dictator or elite leader (or leaders) must gain absolute control over the proletariat. During this phase, the new government exerts absolute control over the common citizen's personal choices -- including his or her education, religion, employment and even marriage. Collectivization of property and wealth must also take place.
Phase 3: Achievement of utopia. This phase has never been attained because it requires that all non-communists be destroyed in order for the Communist Party to achieve supreme equality. In a Marxist utopia, everyone would happily share property and wealth, free from the restrictions that class-based systems require. The government would control all means of production so that the one-class system would remain constant, with no possibility of any middle class citizens rising back to the top.


10 essential tenets of communism, namely:

    Central banking system
    Government controlled education
    Government controlled labor
    Government ownership of transportation and communication vehicles
    Government ownership of agricultural means and factories
    Total abolition of private property
    Property rights confiscation
    Heavy income tax on everyone
    Elimination of rights of inheritance
    Regional planning


https://ip.bitcointalk.org/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fi.pinimg.com%2F564x%2F2e%2Faf%2Ffc%2F2eaffcb74ae76178f6456e90ca2aa62a.jpg&t=614&c=AONFYl-huvcmKg
#FILTHYMARXISTS

if it involves the understanding that has been continuously indoctrinated in a person, then it is certain that they will be carried away with the understanding that they get. be it socialism or any ideology. if the understanding can not adjust to socialize correctly and can accept differences that might occur.

so everything returns to humans themselves and can socializing in general with other communities. because all if it is understood that he is the most correct then all will be considered bad than himself. sometimes it will force yourself to be accepted what it does selflessly again.

Because admitting your own wrong is difficult

I don't know any socialist system where everyone earns the same nor do I know any socialist person who thinks everyone should earn the same.  'Socialism' as capitalists describe it doesn't work because its a strawman.   You constantly complain about concepts no one supports. 

"No one supports that" is just your comtard newspeak for "we are not responsible for the direct results of our ideology and actions because that is not what we wanted to happen." No one cares what you want, your intent is fucking utterly meaningless. The results are the problem, and no matter how much you deny it history does a very good job documenting the results of Socialism.

Correct and those results are populations that are far and away better off.

Yeah I dunno if over 100 million dead counts as better off.