I'm searching and digging for any criticism of Bitcoin in attempt to identify the flaws so that we are aware of the limitations and can make attempts to address them. Here are my findings: The biggest real threat is technical. The protocol isn't quite robust enough to handle large scale (ie: $1 trillion dollar equivalency) and above transaction rates.
That technical challenge WILL be addressed somehow and it probably WON'T be addressed directly with Bitcoin. The risks to fragmenting Bitcoin would be too great and consensus can't be reached on some of the technical issues.
The result is that Bitcoin will probably end up being useful only for larger, less frequent transactions and something else will be built on top of it or alongside it to handle the pooling of those larger, less frequent transactions.
It can't be killed except by hard forking repeatedly with in-fighting. One or two instances of that will likely lead most people to adopt a "just leave it alone" attitude which will save it, but lead to it being useful for only larger, less frequent transactions.
BTW, most people haven't considered that no action at all would have been just fine during the last bug related hard-fork situation. More and more of those situations will lead people to realize that "leaving it alone" is the default and best option. I think you are onto something here. This should be given a priority as an area for Netcoin to improve on Bitcoin. You've identified a potential competitive advantage. Scaling. The Bitcoin protocol requires that every node in the network download a copy of every Bitcoin transaction that has ever occurred. As Bitcoin has grown more popular, running the “full” Bitcoin client has become more and more resource-intensive. The last time I started up my Bitcoin client, it took several hours to download all the transactions that had occurred in the few weeks since the last time I ran it. To prevent things from becoming completely unwieldy, the Bitcoin protocol limits the size of each “block,” the basic unit of Bitcoin’s shared transaction register, to one megabyte. Since one block is created every 10 minutes, on average, this places a hard limit on the number of transactions the network can process each hour. Right now, the network is operating well below the limit. But it’s not that far below the limit. If the Bitcoin economy continues to grow rapidly, we’re likely to hit it in the next few years. Reaching the limit wouldn’t be catastrophic; the Bitcoin protocol has an elegant system of transaction fees to process the most urgent transactions first. But it does place some limits on Bitcoin’s long-term future. For example, it’s hard to imagine Bitcoin ever becoming a replacement for conventional credit cards. There are far too many credit card transactions for the Bitcoin network to accomodate. Let me ask this, why can't there be supernodes which are specialized to process Bitcoin transactions and which have the capacity to do it? Is it because of the fear of centralization? The Internet relies on a backbone because latency would be too high if it didn't. |
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I'm searching and digging for any criticism of Bitcoin in attempt to identify the flaws so that we are aware of the limitations and can make attempts to address them. Here are my findings: The biggest real threat is technical. The protocol isn't quite robust enough to handle large scale (ie: $1 trillion dollar equivalency) and above transaction rates.
That technical challenge WILL be addressed somehow and it probably WON'T be addressed directly with Bitcoin. The risks to fragmenting Bitcoin would be too great and consensus can't be reached on some of the technical issues.
The result is that Bitcoin will probably end up being useful only for larger, less frequent transactions and something else will be built on top of it or alongside it to handle the pooling of those larger, less frequent transactions.
It can't be killed except by hard forking repeatedly with in-fighting. One or two instances of that will likely lead most people to adopt a "just leave it alone" attitude which will save it, but lead to it being useful for only larger, less frequent transactions.
BTW, most people haven't considered that no action at all would have been just fine during the last bug related hard-fork situation. More and more of those situations will lead people to realize that "leaving it alone" is the default and best option. I think you are onto something here. This should be given a priority as an area for Netcoin to improve on Bitcoin. You've identified a potential competitive advantage. As we know, centralization allows us to receive Fiat money for whatever work we would like to do. That is one of the Pros of government. Our raw work converts into "money". With Bitcoin however, the only way for us to earn it is via Mining. While Mining in itself is great with keeping a solid inflation rate, it doesnt allow for public adoption. The main issue with Bitcoin is acquiring it. Difficulties surrounding converting fiat to Bitcoin (fiat has been described as having an umbilical cord to Bitcoin) are deemed to increase and grow. Unfortunately, changing this is very difficult.
However, another old coin unknown to most has semi-fixed this issue. Anyone heard of Devcoin? It's about as old as Bitcoin somewhat, and allows people to be paid via their "open-source work" and also by mining. Devcoin allows miners to make 10% of each block, while 90% of mining goes to people who actually work for it. The main "product" that people earn Devcoin for is writing, however other projects are available.
Unfortunately, Devcoin has two issues also, or to be more correctly defined, two imperfections. Only "open-source work" is paid, which essentially means that you cannot sell your work. Everyone has your work's core fundamentals. Under deeper inspection, this isn't a really big issue. You just can't continually make money off of one product. Also, you could have a very large project that you have finished, but the payment you can receive is essentially variable. Devcoin's second imperfection is that the payment system IS centralized. Devtome is what handles the payment system, and while payment for writing is automated, payment for projects is not.
You receive payment via a share system. Payments go out every "round" (essentially every 3000-5000 blocks). For writing, every 1,000 words equates to one share. The total amount of shares then allow proportional payment of each round to go out. Each round is roughly 180 million devcoins if my memory serves me right. However, with projects that don't involve words, SOMEBODY needs to determine and assign the number of shares that THEY believe is fair for the project. Due to the way Devtome is built, it can become decentralized. The whole issue is built upon how we go about creating a script that judges how many shares something is worth, or if we need a script at all (Democratic voting).
Something like this needs to be attempted to be added to Bitcoin. Yes, this would require a fork, so around 60% of the network would have to agree with the changes for it to be implemented correctly (theoretically 51% is the requirement, but there is the probability factor with block solving as well). If a system was implemented that would allow us to not only be paid using the share system for "open-source work", one that also allows us to be paid directly in Bitcoin by proof of sales of products would be nice as well. However, such a payment system without government is completely hinged off trust. That is why I have written this thread. We need to brainstorm a way for such a system to work. Essentially, the central question is: "How can someone be paid fairly for sold products without relying on trust and the word of the merchant?" Once such a solution is figured out, and if the network accepted such a change, Bitcoin would be set to go mainstream instantly. Mining alone cannot be the way Bitcoin works. Mining alone ties acquiring Bitcoin directly to Fiat money, which is what I believe personally to be the worst thing Bitcoin is facing right now.
Perhaps this problem can be solved without a fork. Human beings can with the help of AI can be paid to rate digital content and assign value to it. There should be a minimum value but no maximum, and I think this can be accomplished by allowing a limited amount of bonuses but an unlimited amount of tips. So if I like an article I read on Devtome I should be able to vote to give it a bonus provided there is some way to lock my vote in as part of my digital identity. This is possible through digital signatures tied to the wallet itself. So yes I think a web of trust is technically possible and a rating ot voting system is technically possible. The problem is fraud is also possible, but really it's no different from the fraud that already goes on with sites like Amazon which relies on ratings, or Itunes, or movies. I think a combination of micro payments and bonuses will allow for community consensus to shape the pay structure while also keeping minimums so that even a crappy writer can make the minimum amount of money a crappy writer can make. I also think the solution if found will involve artificial intelligence, if anyone has the expertise in that area then they could solve it as there would certainly be enough processing power through the network to handle it. I will have to think about this more and maybe see what Ethicoin comes up with but I agree with you, the most critical feature of a currency is the ability to work for it. Just being able to spend it isn't good enough and is the main reason Bitcoins aren't getting big as fast as they could be. This is an area for where a competitive advantage is possible. |
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He is a traitor who deserves to rot in prison.
For how long? Of course he deserves some punishment for breaking his oath, but how much is fair? Life in prison is not fair. Also what is with the stories of torture? No matter what he could have done, that should not happen. Let's watch it play out in court. |
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Digitalmagnus said it nicely in a previous post. We must be able to make this currency suitable for day to day transactions with minimal compromise on the security 1) Transaction times - Starbucks, gas station and grocery lineups (something many of us deal with daily) are long enough as it is, can you imagine the patience of people in a lineup to wait for your 10 minute cryptocoin transaction to go through?! Or imagine on black Friday, you need to purchase that $1,000 flatscreen and BestBuy makes you wait for 6 confirmations (~1hour) before approving the transaction. We BADLY need transaction times to be 30 seconds or less, ideally on par or better than credit cards. This IMO is the #1 hurdle to mass adoption. Who the heck wants to wait around to pay for something? And which business owner wants less customers because they are too frustrated waiting around to buy something? I think in these examples you wouldn't need to wait for 6 confirmations. You're in the store, they have your real name and identity on record, all you have to do is sign here and one confirmation should be enough. Maybe I'm wrong? |
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Yeah, these ideas should be catalogued.
Also, did Taco mention anything about solving the instantaneous day-to-day transaction problem that Bitcoin has? If this can be solved, then there will be huge potential for NTC
Elaborate on the details of the problem, let our thread put our minds to solving it and see what we can come up with. The problems and solutions must be catalogued for this reason. |
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Also, what are your thoughts on this. Note: If the mods feel this thread is more suited to the alt coin board then go ahead and move it. I placed it in this board because it's a technical project and here it will be seen by the right people. This topic just seems more relevant to this board because in the alt coin board it wont get much response and it will get washed away in a sea of stupid scamcoin threads. What is this project all about?A few months ago I started developing an idea for a new crypto-currency protocol which would solve the "blockchain bloat" problem once and for all by replacing the full blockchain with a finite "mini-blockchain". Such a system would offer many benefits including consistently fast synchronization times, much more block space, faster transactions, and lower fees. Certainly not an easy problem to solve, but if it could be solved we are looking at truly new and unique improvements over the Bitcoin protocol. A few weeks ago I believe I finally cracked this problem and I quickly published a white paper explaining how the Bitcoin protocol could be modified and extended to support a mini-blockchain of a finite size. I also created a thread for discussion of the white paper to see if anyone could shoot it down. After a fair amount of feedback I'm now convinced the scheme is viable and I want to attempt an implementation. In fact one member, digitalindustry, was so impressed by the idea that he started his own project to implement the mini-blockchain idea and merge it with the proof-of-stake concept used in Novacoin and PPCoin (I'm not really sure how those two coins differ). The reason I chose to start this project is mainly because digitalindustry and myself could not agree on important issues and I feel he's taking it in the wrong direction. Most importantly there will be no pre-mine for any reason. Digitalindustry feels a pre-mine is needed for promotional reasons but that is nonsense because an alt coins which offers new features like this will not fail to be adopted. I feel that a natural and fair start is the best course of action because it gives the coin more credibility and ensures the stability of the coin in the long run. This project will attempt to minimize and exclude any controversial proposals and ideas. The goal of this project is to implement the mini-blockchain protocol whilst staying as true to the original Bitcoin protocol as possible. That means no PoS implementation either. The PoS system is controversial in a way because it appears to make the rich richer over time and the benefits of such a system really aren't observable for a long time anyway. Not to mention my mini-blockchain proposal is already complicated enough as it is, keeping things simple is the key here. So if you would like to get involved with implementing this scheme and you feel like my approach is wrong, you can join digitalindustry's project and help him implement my idea along with the PoS system and a promotional pre-mine. But that's not how I do things, I like to stick to the old beaten path and play it safe. The first group to implement this proposal will be rewarded for their hard work. We are talking about the next generation of crypto-currency here. The next generation of crypto-currency?What is the next generation of crypto-currency and what separates this project from any other alt coin? Most of you will agree that 95% of the alt coins out there are essentially pump and dump scams which offer nothing new or useful. I would personally say there are less than half a dozen alt coins which shouldn't be labeled scam coins; Namecoin, Devcoin, PPCoin, Novacoin, and Litecoin, and perhaps 1 or 2 other alt coins. I'm not so sure about PPCoin and Novacoin but they do offer new PoS features. Litecoin doesn't really offer much beyond faster block confirmation speeds and scrypt-based mining, but since it was one of the first alt coins to offer these new features it has gained a genuine foothold in the crypto-currency market. Not only does this project offer a new coin with unseen features, but those new features are not small or trivial. Imagine always being able to download the blockchain within seconds or minutes as well as significantly faster transaction speeds. Why am I making such a big deal of this? Well consider threads like this: WARNING! Bitcoin will soon block small transaction outputsNew video: Why the blocksize limit keeps Bitcoin free and decentralizedAll this concern over max block sizes, the SD "spam dust", the transaction capacity reaching its limit, all of this is nicely solved with a mini-blockchain + account tree implementation. Now I'm not saying Bitcoin is obsolete or outdated or that this new scheme will replace it, Bitcoin still has certain advantages over the mini-blockchain scheme and vice versa. However if this scheme turns out to work it does have the potential to seriously compete with bitcoin. It was only a matter of time before someone was able to improve on the Bitcoin protocol and offer a new coin with highly desirable advantages over the original protocol, but I don't think that will mean the original will ever die out. Just because this scheme can offer more scalability and speed doesn't make it better as a tool for storing wealth. It does sort of make it better as a currency though, which is really what we should be aiming for I believe. So how will the project be organized?The first thing which needs to happen is we need to form a team of developers and create a repository to implement this scheme and see if it actually works before we do anything else like work on promotional activities. I know a fair amount of C++ myself but unfortunately my skills are much too amateur to work on the development of a crypto-currency. I need serious developers who know what they are doing and who have worked on similar projects in the past. It will take developers with quite a deep understanding of the bitcoin protocol to make it happen, and you will also need to understand my mini-blockchain proposal properly. After we form a team with some core developers I wont play too much of a role. I don't claim to be an expert programmer and I don't really plan to lead the technical development but I will guide it along the path I think is best where ever I can. I prefer group consensus rather than acting as a dictator. I understand that many of you may not want to work for free so I have set up a donation address (below) where anyone who wishes to support the development of this idea can donate to the cause. I will also pledge 5BTC out of my personal bitcoin stash towards the development of this project. If you wish to get involved with this project send me a PM or if you prefer just post to this thread. Hopefully I am not the only one who thinks this is a project worth undertaking.
Project Donation Address: 1AZjrg6h9nfvFt16kaszLTJkQi13kMwZz2Another excellent idea. This is the kind of stuff which should go into an academic journal. The person who invented this should receive compensation and credit. The people who implement it would also have to be professional programmers, not amateurs. A lot of the time the academic or visionary types aren't necessarily good programmers but we still need to channel their brain power and compensate them. Also we need to document it all so that when the people want to build a new coin and need the latest research it's all there at that one site. So perhaps let's start by taking the current Netcoin wiki and create an R&D section for experimental ideas like these. That would be the first step. Then when it's time to develop the coin the programmers can look to the wiki for all the brilliant ideas and proposals. At some point tacotime will check the thread. He will be in a position to review all of this. |
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I argued against that. I'm saying the social network makes the currency popular and the investment and mining syndicate make the currency profitable and that if the syndicate does not protect the social network which protects the currency then nothing protects the currency and no amount of technical feature can change that. Ultimately Netcoin will be protected by the Netcoin community and organizing to do this early on makes sense if it's supposed to last and be competitive because the Bitcoin community by that time will be elite and will not help other cryptocurrencies as you're seeing with the venture capital flowing into Bitcoin specific companies and Bitcoin specific technology leaving Litecoin and PPcoin to reinvent the wheel all over again for the benefit of those who own a lot of Bitcoins. That is the free market, but those who own a lot of Netcoins might want to have the same businesses, wallets and infrastructure in their community and it's not necessarily going to be a good idea or even possible to rely on Bitcoin businesses to support the Netcoin community because they might not own any Netcoins and could easily decide against it and then what? No online wallets? No debit cards? No exchanges? None of the essential sites that make market cap go up?
Hey Lucky, I really appreciate the valuable insight that you offer here. The points that you suggest are excellent and I feel that we do definitely need to develop a social network. Do you have any thoughts or plans as to how to develop this aspect? My opinion or idea is to launch a social network along with the coin and tie it into the IPO somehow. So let's say the IPO takes place and early investors pledge money to get early coins or whatever tacotime decides? Well my idea is to either encourage or require they join the social network as part of the process of receiving the return on their investment. At first I was thinking a newsletter of mailing list but then I thought why not take it all the way? An entire social network should be formed. The coin is also called Netcoin so it just seems to make sense that Netcoin should be the first coin to come with a social network as part of the package. The only way to join the social network would be to have Netcoins. Each member of the network would need a Netcoin address and would have to deposit a certain amount into the social network. The social network could be the public face of the Netcoin syndicate. On the social network site individuals will be able to buy software and products. On the backend would be an SQL or superior database, with search capabilities, the capabilities of analysis. On the business end there would be the ability of individuals on the social network to buy shares in various Netcoin businesses, form a web of trust based on friendships and personal relations, etc. At the same time it would be a good idea to not just have a Netcoin specific social network but also bring it onto Facebook somehow. At some point it's going to be essential that social networks become part of the equation. Forums are not the place to do business, or to set up businesses. Social networking sites are much better for these purposes. If for instance a bunch of investors all members of the syndicate decide to form a group on the social network site then investors in that group can focus just on that specific problem. Build the exchanges into the social network as well where if the user has an account with the social network then they can use that account on different exchanges. But this is not exactly something I'm in a position to implement. I'm an idea guy but I do not have the funds to implement this, it would be something I think would have to be implemented prior to the launch though so that near the launch the social network site can go live. Immediately after the launch when individuals have Netcoins then just charge a membership fee in Netcoins and that will fund the social network until there are enough businesses and users for advertising to fund it. Very interesting concept and much needed. Have you spoken to Taco about this at all? We can have a directory of business that accept NTC in the social network and maybe implement a Fiverr-like script where people can do gigs for NTC as well? Does that sound reasonable? It does sound reasonable. Basically why can't we just upload a resume or something similar to the social network similar to how linkedin works and then the employer can review it and hire people with Netcoins? Like I need artwork for my website, and I have 500 Netcoins, so now I browse the Netcoin social network by searching for artists in the employment section or freelance section and suddenly there are profiles of many talented artists to choose from with porfolios of their work. Oh, I really like the linked in style approach. We definitely need to incorporate something like this into the launch to ensure that there is mass adoption of this coin in addition to mining. Having something like this takes the strengths of Devcoin and improves upon it greatly. The flaw with Devcoin is that from my understanding is that the projects that are paid for are all licensed as open source. Sure, they are offering Devcoins for writing articles right now, but there is no purpose of these articles at all. People just write random articles on any topic and they get coins for it. Many people need freelancers to their own private content and this is the market that we should focus upon However, if we go after the freelancer scene...such as Elance, or even the Warriors for Hire section at Warriorforum and use Netcoin as a payment form, this can be definitely something that is huge. Other possible sites include: Odesk Freelancer Guru Demand Studios iFreelance People Per Hour Freelance Switch Jobs Journalism Jobs Freelance Writing Gigs Problogger Job Board Freelance Writing Jobs Rent A Coder 99Designs Get A Coder Smashing Jobs We could allocate some funds for this as part of the IPO as I think that this is crucial to the success of Netcoin. I think that the model behind those sites work fine. As far as content the only problem I have with Devcoin is it's only for programmers and writers, what about everyone else? I support the creative commons and I don't mind people writing about random subjects if it's eventually made into a wikipedia type site because it will become valuable over time just so long as it's organized. The point is people need to be driven to do legitimate activities other than black market stuff but make the same kind of money. So Devcoin gets it right that freelance writing has to pay $50-500 per share. They also get it right with the creative commons. I don't think Netcoin should force the creative commons but on any Netcoin endorsed wiki it should definitely be creative commons. I mean Netcoin should have a wiki site perhaps focused on a very broad topic and then pay people to fill it in. How about an idea space wiki where people can write 1000 word essays and whitepapers on their ideas and get paid hundreds or thousands of dollars in Netcoin for each one? How about letting the viewers vote on them so that the top ideas, essays and white papers get bigger and bigger bonuses so that people can make tens of thousands of dollar off a whitepaper or well constructed idea? I would title this the research and design wiki or r&d wiki or perhaps the Netcoin open scientific journal where anyone can research any topic and publish it then get paid for conducting the research. Particularly quality research would pay high amounts so that if the next Satoshi appears and shows up with a whitepaper or we get another brilliant colored coin type idea, the person who came up with the idea can get paid for their research thus encouraging them to research the next idea for the community. There should be the badge system which I talked about before and the medal system implemented as well so that individuals can earn prestige and not just coins. We should also pay people to do more intense research such as network/node simulations, marketing research, psychological research, sociological research, and anything else. This is better than Devtome where there are essays and poems but the scientific method is not encouraged and research isn't encouraged. I'm talking about an academic journal style publication funded by Netcoin investment for the benefit of the cryptocurrency community. Do this and Netcoin will secure itself and it's status early on because this is something which will attract all the brightest minds to Netcoin whether to read the wiki/journal or to make money conducting research to publish in it. Honestly I think this would be something which would make Aaron Swartz proud. |
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I argued against that. I'm saying the social network makes the currency popular and the investment and mining syndicate make the currency profitable and that if the syndicate does not protect the social network which protects the currency then nothing protects the currency and no amount of technical feature can change that. Ultimately Netcoin will be protected by the Netcoin community and organizing to do this early on makes sense if it's supposed to last and be competitive because the Bitcoin community by that time will be elite and will not help other cryptocurrencies as you're seeing with the venture capital flowing into Bitcoin specific companies and Bitcoin specific technology leaving Litecoin and PPcoin to reinvent the wheel all over again for the benefit of those who own a lot of Bitcoins. That is the free market, but those who own a lot of Netcoins might want to have the same businesses, wallets and infrastructure in their community and it's not necessarily going to be a good idea or even possible to rely on Bitcoin businesses to support the Netcoin community because they might not own any Netcoins and could easily decide against it and then what? No online wallets? No debit cards? No exchanges? None of the essential sites that make market cap go up?
Hey Lucky, I really appreciate the valuable insight that you offer here. The points that you suggest are excellent and I feel that we do definitely need to develop a social network. Do you have any thoughts or plans as to how to develop this aspect? My opinion or idea is to launch a social network along with the coin and tie it into the IPO somehow. So let's say the IPO takes place and early investors pledge money to get early coins or whatever tacotime decides? Well my idea is to either encourage or require they join the social network as part of the process of receiving the return on their investment. At first I was thinking a newsletter of mailing list but then I thought why not take it all the way? An entire social network should be formed. The coin is also called Netcoin so it just seems to make sense that Netcoin should be the first coin to come with a social network as part of the package. The only way to join the social network would be to have Netcoins. Each member of the network would need a Netcoin address and would have to deposit a certain amount into the social network. The social network could be the public face of the Netcoin syndicate. On the social network site individuals will be able to buy software and products. On the backend would be an SQL or superior database, with search capabilities, the capabilities of analysis. On the business end there would be the ability of individuals on the social network to buy shares in various Netcoin businesses, form a web of trust based on friendships and personal relations, etc. At the same time it would be a good idea to not just have a Netcoin specific social network but also bring it onto Facebook somehow. At some point it's going to be essential that social networks become part of the equation. Forums are not the place to do business, or to set up businesses. Social networking sites are much better for these purposes. If for instance a bunch of investors all members of the syndicate decide to form a group on the social network site then investors in that group can focus just on that specific problem. Build the exchanges into the social network as well where if the user has an account with the social network then they can use that account on different exchanges. But this is not exactly something I'm in a position to implement. I'm an idea guy but I do not have the funds to implement this, it would be something I think would have to be implemented prior to the launch though so that near the launch the social network site can go live. Immediately after the launch when individuals have Netcoins then just charge a membership fee in Netcoins and that will fund the social network until there are enough businesses and users for advertising to fund it. Very interesting concept and much needed. Have you spoken to Taco about this at all? We can have a directory of business that accept NTC in the social network and maybe implement a Fiverr-like script where people can do gigs for NTC as well? Does that sound reasonable? It does sound reasonable. Basically why can't we just upload a resume or something similar to the social network similar to how linkedin works and then the employer can review it and hire people with Netcoins? Like I need artwork for my website, and I have 500 Netcoins, so now I browse the Netcoin social network by searching for artists in the employment section or freelance section and suddenly there are profiles of many talented artists to choose from with porfolios of their work. |
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What's the estimated date of launch for netcoin? Rough estimate even
This is the R&D phase. But I think the goal is to make this coin not just an alt-coin but a potential successor to Bitcoin. Part of the reason to put a social network in place prior to launch and collect email addresses for pre-registration is to have a mechanism to determine just how interested the community is. You can track this by collecting email addresses. A social network site gives you even more data about the community which you serve. It can let you know exactly what sort of businesses need to be started and how much demand there is for them. Also it gives you a way to distribute information such as talking points should there be a need for political activism or just warnings to protect the network in the form of a PSA. Finally and perhaps the most important possible function of a social network and of the R&D phase is to actually attract the smartest minds in the cryptocurrency community to Netcoin, then set up a wiki where the best ideas and solutions from those minds are organized, then after all of this is set up begin coding and starting businesses around those ideas and solutions. Research and development also requires some level of testing, so there will be a testing phase to see how well certain experimental ideas can work. Like for instance there is a debate amongst this thread about whether or not there should be a cap and how many coins there should be total. I say there should be 11 million or less total to avoid inflating cryptocurrencies in general and to make it more deflationary than Bitcoin (because I favor deflationary currencies as an innovation over fiat). This is currently being debated as we speak and there are several mathematical models which show you can have an unlimited total number of coins and have it sill be deflationary if the inflation rate is very slow which has the affect of producing short term scarcity even if in the long term it's an unlimited supply. The purpose of a cap is just because that mechanism is easier to understand, you don't have to analyze graphs and complex models to determine what will happen if I say there will only be 11 million coins total, you know exactly what will happen. Now if I say there will be an infinite amount of coins total, but that the inflation rate will never be more than 5% at any given time, what you might not know is that the inflation rate is actually more important than the total number. If two coins have a total number of 11 million coins but coin A is inflating at 50% while coin B is inflating at 5% a year then coin B is far more scarce than coin A and will take a much longer time to reach 11 million. This would mean the price would be far higher for coin B if the market caps were equal. But miners like to get a lot of coins, they might not mine the coin due to psychology. So here is how I think about it, I say I'm smart but there are many smart people in the community and there might be people smarter than me. I say we should start identifying what we want from this coin. As an investor I want the coin to be as scarce as possible, meaning if I trade my Bitcoins for it I want to know that someday a Netcoin will be worth twice what a Bitcoin will be worth based on mathematics and psychology. If I don't fully believe this will happen I will not be making that trade, especially during the time when Bitcoins could be $1000 each and rising. So basically Netcoin has to be a better gold than Bitcoin at least, in order to appeal to investors. To appeal to miners it offers some ASIC resistance and other features to distinguish it from Bitcoin and from Litecoin. To appeal to technologists the inflation rate may actually be adjustable by the community but once again this would be why a syndicate would have to be formed early along with a social network. Overall, let's set the goal to make Netcoin better than all the other coins in as many areas as possible by identifying the strengths and weaknesses of each coin. I believe scarcity and deflationary mechanisms are a strength for a coin to have but I also recognize that putting a total cap on the coin is not the only way to do it. I think ASIC resistance doesn't really appeal to me as much as a miner because I don't really think it will stop the mining farms and cloud mining from private entities, which is why I would think a syndicate would have to form. That problem is actually very hard to solve and the best idea I had was to randomize the algorithm so that no one knows which algorithm kicks in at which time of day forcing everyone to mine at all times to wait for the difficulty to fall for their particular device. On the wiki can we set up a page where details of the technical problems are mentioned along with the proposed solutions? Also a list of desired features that people want which appeals to different demographics? Such as a category for investors on the wiki with a list of features which appeals to them and then for miners with a list of features which appeals to them and then a mathematics section where people can look deeper into the different theories of inflation, deflation and different formulas involving that complete with the pros and cons from the proponents of the different strategies? |
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I argued against that. I'm saying the social network makes the currency popular and the investment and mining syndicate make the currency profitable and that if the syndicate does not protect the social network which protects the currency then nothing protects the currency and no amount of technical feature can change that. Ultimately Netcoin will be protected by the Netcoin community and organizing to do this early on makes sense if it's supposed to last and be competitive because the Bitcoin community by that time will be elite and will not help other cryptocurrencies as you're seeing with the venture capital flowing into Bitcoin specific companies and Bitcoin specific technology leaving Litecoin and PPcoin to reinvent the wheel all over again for the benefit of those who own a lot of Bitcoins. That is the free market, but those who own a lot of Netcoins might want to have the same businesses, wallets and infrastructure in their community and it's not necessarily going to be a good idea or even possible to rely on Bitcoin businesses to support the Netcoin community because they might not own any Netcoins and could easily decide against it and then what? No online wallets? No debit cards? No exchanges? None of the essential sites that make market cap go up?
Hey Lucky, I really appreciate the valuable insight that you offer here. The points that you suggest are excellent and I feel that we do definitely need to develop a social network. Do you have any thoughts or plans as to how to develop this aspect? My opinion or idea is to launch a social network along with the coin and tie it into the IPO somehow. So let's say the IPO takes place and early investors pledge money to get early coins or whatever tacotime decides? Well my idea is to either encourage or require they join the social network as part of the process of receiving the return on their investment. At first I was thinking a newsletter of mailing list but then I thought why not take it all the way? An entire social network should be formed. The coin is also called Netcoin so it just seems to make sense that Netcoin should be the first coin to come with a social network as part of the package. The only way to join the social network would be to have Netcoins. Each member of the network would need a Netcoin address and would have to deposit a certain amount into the social network. The social network could be the public face of the Netcoin syndicate. On the social network site individuals will be able to buy software and products. On the backend would be an SQL or superior database, with search capabilities, the capabilities of analysis. On the business end there would be the ability of individuals on the social network to buy shares in various Netcoin businesses, form a web of trust based on friendships and personal relations, etc. At the same time it would be a good idea to not just have a Netcoin specific social network but also bring it onto Facebook somehow. At some point it's going to be essential that social networks become part of the equation. Forums are not the place to do business, or to set up businesses. Social networking sites are much better for these purposes. If for instance a bunch of investors all members of the syndicate decide to form a group on the social network site then investors in that group can focus just on that specific problem. Build the exchanges into the social network as well where if the user has an account with the social network then they can use that account on different exchanges. But this is not exactly something I'm in a position to implement. I'm an idea guy but I do not have the funds to implement this, it would be something I think would have to be implemented prior to the launch though so that near the launch the social network site can go live. Immediately after the launch when individuals have Netcoins then just charge a membership fee in Netcoins and that will fund the social network until there are enough businesses and users for advertising to fund it. |
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wothless unless its a silvercoin:) lead.zink steel what ever you make it wont be of any value:)
counterfiting wil be greater than if one forks up silver
Eventually it will be silver or even platinum but for now it has to be whatever he can afford. |
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Don't forget to put in an error in printing the first version, so that it becomes collectible.  I hope they become collectible regardless, however I cannot promise to mimick the error in the original casascius coins. First of all, I am a bit of a perfectionist. Secondly, I feel like its time for Litecoin to part from the image of being Bitcoin's little brother. Inherently this stigma will stick with Litecoin for a long time, but it is time we start looking into the future.  I do think that would be funny though.  If done right these collectible Litecoins can end up being more valuable than the non-physical Bitcoins. I could see these collectible coins selling on auction sites in 5 years going for x5 the price of buying Litecoins merely because it's the first physical Litecoins and if done right it's pure silver as well? Success. Zinodaurs models are great, I hope you're going with that. Just offer a method to pre-order, we are waiting. |
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What do you think? Why is LTC dying?
It's not dying. It has over 50 million market cap. |
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Why not plan an outlet for the coin like getting charities to accept it as a currency. Then I think it would have a unique benefit. I know ultimately that is what you're doing with the 50-50 split but you control it all. Give power to the people to choose what it goes to.
Why not just fund the people with the coin? Most people want to do work which benefits the world. Very few are trying to build some WMD or weapon so I don't see why most people on Bitcointalk couldn't use it. All they have to do is figure out how to make it better than Devcoin. |
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Very interested, merge mine with LTC will be revolutionary
Thank you - this is the technical hurdle we are still overcoming and we are looking for an LTC mining pool where we can test our LTC merge mining. I'll be honest - we really need to test this LTC merge mining in the wild before launching ETC. So if you know a large LTC mining pool willing to support our tests please let me know Coinotron One thing is certain. You try to merge mine Ethicoin with Vaginacoin.. shit will get strange Close encounters of the third kind coin LOL But could you elaborate on how LTC miners will receive free coins? I think I missed the merged mining explanation boat... :/ Well, if you are mining LTC anyway you can run ETC (Ethicoin) Deamon and mine LTC at the same time. Free coins - but please don't spend them all at once and drop the exchange rate - rather save them to support the many awesome world changing projects we will be sponsoring Of course cash them in if you need to that is the point If it works I'll definitely support it. I plan to mine LTC anyway. Let me ask this though, why 80 million? Is this because Litecoin is 84 million? In that case you're very clever and I now have faith in your currency. I think it's always better to go for a lower cap. The main issue isn't the cap though, it's the inflation rate. How will you keep the inflation rate low enough? The other question is how to get people to actually use this coin? Devcoin has Devtome, what will this coin have? |
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i see i see. sounds neat.
Thank you for your support. Please let me know if you or anyone you know may be eligible for funding, Ethicoin will be widely mined due to the (secret feature) to be revealed soon Anyone is eligible to earn Ethicoin's (beyond the miner's who will also earn Ethicoin) so please let me know if you know anyone who may be interested! The real question is why will anyone want to earn it? Sounds like a lot of hype so far. Devcoin does need competition though because they messed up in how they designed it in my opinion. |
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This might be a good idea for Netcoin. |
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it will go down. it is fighting the inflation. future inflation is guaranteed. future demand is speculative. if you cna find reasons that demand will increase faster than the rate of future inflation then price will go up.
ppcoin currently has the lowest inflation rate (20~30% annual) among all altcoins, only second to bitcoin (~10% annual). Look at that real DEV who is on the case, do you seen why this coin is going places also I really like http://www.ppcoin.org/love the map at the back etc PPC does not have the lowest inflation rate. Where do you get that number? Here are the facts I have. PPC has out inflated LTC and hasn't been around nearly as long. It produces around 411 coins per block. Bitcoin is at 25 coins per block. Litecoin is at 50 coins per block. Mincoin is at 2 coins per block. As a result of epic growth PPcoin has 19 million coins in circulation to LTC's 18 million. At this point in time it's not really a big deal because 19 million is low, but it's not the lowest inflation rate of all alt-coins based on the numbers I'm working with. I don't know where you get the values of 20% - 30% inflation, and how do you figure it's the lowest? I know it's your coin so you're going to promote it but what we are seeing in the market are signals of a period of high inflation, and market cap shrinkage, which isn't a bad thing but don't convince people to invest heavy fiat into this coin when it's rise is truly uncertain. I await the figures backing up your claims. http://coinmarketcap.com/PPC is probably the most undervalued coin out there
It has a real known and good DEV for ages.
Could not agree more. I feel like LTC is a right where it should be + / - 20% BTC is under and still recovering, i personally think its worth $140-150 NVC is hard to say I think its around where it should be and it makes it the only coin atm at true value. TRC I hate so I just dont care ;p PPC is waaayy under as I think it should be around 0.0025 ftc/cnc is total crap and I would not touch them with 10ft pole. I don't think it's undervalued if we look at the market cap. The market cap is the indicator for what the price should be and the market cap is shrinking. I'm a fan of the PPcoin technology, but I think the only way for the price to go up is for businesses to start up and accept or use PPcoins. Start a business and somehow find a reason for people to buy and use PPcoins and the market cap will rise. The other thing that needs to happen is hashing power has to be directed at PPcoin because according to my understanding the inflation rate is determined by the hashing power directed at it. More miners should raise the difficulty which should slow the inflation rate and that could happen as soon as ASICS ship. I'm mining PPC. I predict someday each PPC will be worth $1 and when I mine I think of each PPC as $1. I also think the price of PPC will eventually go up, but the price of PPC will be correlated with the market cap just like it is with all coins and only when the market cap is brought up to a level above the total amount of PPC in circulation will we see PPC price at $1 and up. This would mean PPC needs a market cap of $19 million or more. LTC has a market cap if $50 million but is selling at $2-3, Bitcoin has a market cap of over a billion and is selling at $100-130, let's see if PPC gets to a dollar when it's market cap is over $20 million, I predict that is what it will take and that is possible but probably not going to happen anytime soon. The only way it will happen is for you and others to set up sites where people can buy PPC directly with USD, not buy it with BTC or LTC. Then there has to be many sites set up for people to spend PPC. Finally there has to be some job sites for people to earn PPC. Current PPC market cap is $ 3,137,639 and it just lost -7.97%. Unless the trend changes I expect the price to keep going down until a development in PPC changes the trend. PPC is the first crypto i mined and I really liked it, but I think it has a decent price for a coin with that total supply, and if no new uses are created for it there could be some ugly dumping.
Right now its still over priced but it will eventually reach $1 probably sometime this year. If you speculate a future higher value, you cannot say its currently overpriced. Things aren't valued at what their current status is, but what it is believed to be worth in the future. Its the reason why when a good news hit about a company, its value rises. And vice versa. The only plausible reason to say what you just said besides stupidity is "I want to buy low and resell high". But then, its stupid to think the market will follow your claim. Supply and demand. Supply is high and demand is low. I think this can change over a period of 6 months but the longer supply increases the bigger the market cap will have to be for each coin to be worth $1. So while I know PPC is worth something, and worth more than 0.003 in the long term and definitely worth more than it's going for right now, I don't know that it will ever reach $1.Since the poll is asking where I think it will be in the next 45 days I think right now there are signals that the price has to go down further before the slow climb back up so I think for another few weeks to a month we will see it dip down to 0.0010 and then 0.0007 and from there it will go back up. Because of this, if you're thinking about PPC as a short term investment it's a very bad time to buy PPC. Wait another couple of weeks when supply is increased even further and then buy as much as you can while it's at around 0.0007, if you buy right now you wont get the maximum amount of profits as a speculator. |
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any arguments why would this succeed and why is this better than other coins?
Don't do it. It probably has a virus in it straight from China to infect libertarian American patriots. |
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What is the reason for not having a cap on the coin supply? What is the advantage that Sunny sees?
Flexibility and probably he trusts his formula and the market to decide that. It's a debated decision but we will see how it plays out. |
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