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1161  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: How to determine common ownership of addresses? (Inspired by Shamir's paper) on: October 20, 2012, 06:46:38 PM
It does not. Decenteralized mixing and joint payments can produce transactions which are indistinguishable at the transaction level from regular common ownership transactions.
Indistinguishable under which lens? "Yeah, these all look the same to me" doesn't cut it. Can you prove information-theoretically that no information can be obtained?

You can't even say much about coin selection behavior without knowing in advance the full content of the wallet,
You have a bunch of linked addresses which you believe are in a single wallet. You check if the transactions involving these addresses make sense with the coin selection algorithm. If they don't you check which addresses can be unlinked to end up with something that makes more sense.

but the accuracy of this guess depends on access to the ground truth on both sides.
You can devise a theory and then test it on actual wallets.


Let's agree that you think it is impossible to derive any information from the data, and that I think that, while difficult, it is possible to analyze internal and external data in a sophisticated way to obtain useful estimates of statistical properties of interest.
1162  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: How to determine common ownership of addresses? (Inspired by Shamir's paper) on: October 20, 2012, 05:53:22 PM
I think people who said they did it wrong aren't expecting them to revise the paper, just to let them know that their research is flawed and will always be.
[sarcasm]Let's all stop doing any research then.[/sarcasm]
We shouldn't take the research for more than what it is, but we want "what it is" to be as good as possible.

Heck, they can't even be sure they got the real blockchain instead of a fake one fed to them by whatever site they scraped it from.
They used blockexplorer.com; I don't think discrepancy between their data and the true blockchain is a problem in practice; and this is off-topic for this thread.

The errors from making these assumptions are systemic, not random. It would be a methodological error to treat them as random errors.
From a Bayesian perspective everything is "random". Can you clarify in what ways the errors are not random?

We are looking for assumptions that will have less errors.

You can't even give a distribution over the bias without knowing other difficult or impossible to measure cofounding factors (e.g. amount of decenteralized mixing and joint payment transactions, volume on various services, etc).
You can ask services what are their volumes. (Some publish them without being asked).
Decentralized mixing (of the kind I know anyway) has a characteristic format, you can try to detect it and filter these transactions for linking addresses.
You can analyze the coin selection algorithm to see what kind of patterns are expected with multiple addresses in a single wallet, as opposed to joint payment transactions.
You can assign a probability to the deduction that linked addresses have a common owner, and increase the confidence if there are multiple links.
1163  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: How to determine dormant coins? (Inspired by Shamir's paper) on: October 20, 2012, 05:50:09 PM
What would be the best way to measure how many coins are in long-term savings, as opposed to being actively circulated?
And in the case of deleted wallets? What will those coins be considered?
Without any indication to the contrary, these coins should probably considered savings; ideally, it will also be possible to estimate how many of the dormant coins are actually lost.
1164  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: How to determine common ownership of addresses? (Inspired by Shamir's paper) on: October 20, 2012, 05:40:34 PM
For the purpose of statistical analysis of the data, what would be the best way to determine common ownership of addresses?
It's weak for reasons other than the ones listed. Coin selection tries to minimize change, so it doesn't tend to link much— especially if you use addresses once and in some clients like armory linking is explicitly avoided.  So you can have a bunch of coins in a common wallet and still not that much linkage— witness their enormous underestimation of instawallet.
That's weakness #2. "e.g." means it's not necessary that the wallets are separate.

What you're asking for— reliable identification of common ownership— is not possible in Bitcoin _by design_ because the pseudoanonymity of the participants is how we achieve any privacy at all, and thats diluted by combining addresses.
Unless you get people to tell you, you can't determine common ownership of addresses.
I'm not asking for a reliable identification. I'm asking for identification which is as good as possible for the purpose of statistical analysis of the data. This means it should have as little bias and as little variance as possible.
1165  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / How to determine dormant coins? (Inspired by Shamir's paper) on: October 20, 2012, 05:36:21 PM
In Quantitative Analysis of the Full Bitcoin Transaction Graph, Dorit Ron and Adi Shamir have analyzed statistics of ownership and circulation of bitcoins. One of the metrics they have investigated is the number of bitcoins that lie dormant in long-term savings rather than being actively used in trade.

They arrived at a figure of 78% of all coins being in savings account, where they define as savings any address which does not have any outgoing transaction. The problems with this metric are:

1. If addresses are rapidly generated and used up, circulated coins can exist in addresses matching this criterion. In fact, if everyone follows the guideline of never reusing an address, 100% of coins at all times will be in addresses which have never sent, regardless of how many are in circulation.
2. A savings address may have outgoing transaction; for example, if the address is emptied occasionally for a large purchase and then replenished over time.
3. It cannot distinguish between actual long-term savings which have not yet been liquidated and lost coins.
4. If a shared wallet is used, coins held in place by the wallet can represent circulating coins by clients, and vice versa. The first case is even more pronounced if payments are settled internally without the blockchain.

They also had this to say:

Quote from: Adi Shamir
2. The question of how many bitcoins are dormant. Even though this was only one of our many findings, it was the one statistic that caught the attention of most commentators and web journalists. Webelieve that measuring this aspect is extremely important, since it implies some fundamental truths about whether the bitcoin scheme is used mostly to trade in goods or to speculate, and how thescheme will behave if its current users will change their current pattern of behavior. Once again , we have several possible approaches, and I would like to recruit your help in initiating a frank discussionin your community about how to measure this fundamental statistics in the most accurate way. We have spent a lot of time and effort in collecting all the data, but once we have it, it will be easy for us toadapt our measuring methodology based on your suggestions as a service to your community and as a contribution to the scientific study of the bitcoin scheme. However, there is one thing I would like toclarify: I do not want to have a target-shopping experiment, in which once you will see the results you will decide whether you like it or would prefer to change the methodology again in order to geta politically more appealing result. We thus propose to wait until some consensus emerges, and only then run the selected methodology on the data and announce the results.

2.1 In order to start this discussion, I would like to make an initial suggestion: Fortunately, the issue of dormant bitcoins can be made independent of the issue of common ownership of addresses(even though several comments we received argues the politically convenient point  that since our decisions about the later point did not absolutely match the ground truth, our results about dormantbitcoins were completely invalid). Let us thus work entirely at the level of addresses, paying no attention to our attempt to find such common ownerships. We propose to compile the followingstatistics: For every amount of time x (e.g., in units of full months), we will measure how many bitcoins were deposited into addresses in transactions that took place more than x months before ourcutoff date (May 13-th 2012), and were not followed by any later transaction in which the address  was one of the sending addresses.

2.2 Notice that if someone keeps moving his bitcoins every few days from one address to the next (which seems to be a relatively common behavior), we will not count these bitcoins at all as dormant(and in this sense we will underestimate the number of dormant coins) unless that user stopped doing this sometime before the relevant point in time (x months before the cutoff date), and in this casewe will only count these bitcoins once, in the last transfer which he executed (since all the previous transactions had a later outgoing transaction).

2.3. To deal with the issue of coins which were minted at the earliest period, when they had little value and could have been abandoned by early experimenters, we can also consider only transactionthat took place after a certain date.

2.4. To be fair, we will have to take into account that if we consider a large value of x, there were fewer coins at that time, so when we compute percentages, we will have to use in the denominatorthe number of coins that had been minted up to x months before the cutoff date.
What would be the best way to measure how many coins are in long-term savings, as opposed to being actively circulated?
1166  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / How to determine common ownership of addresses? (Inspired by Shamir's paper) on: October 20, 2012, 05:19:57 PM
In Quantitative Analysis of the Full Bitcoin Transaction Graph, Dorit Ron and Adi Shamir have analyzed statistics and interesting structures in the chains of ownership of bitcoins. To this end, they needed a way to determine when two addresses are owned by the same person.

The method they used is as follows: If there is any transaction which has inputs from both addresses, they have the same owner; this is extended transitively. Address pairs which are not in the transitive closure are assumed to have distinct owners.

This method has several weaknesses:

1. If two addresses by distinct owners are linked in an advanced transaction, they will be assumed to have the same owner.
2. If two addresses are owned by the same person but are never visibly linked (e.g. separate wallets), they will be assumed to have distinct owners.
3. If people are using a shared eWallet, they will all be assumed to be the same person - while technically the keys are indeed all held by the same entity, each person has a separate legal ownership of the coins.

They also had this to say:

Quote from: Adi Shamir
1. While the notions of a bitcoin and of an address are completely clear, the notion of an owner is quite fuzzy since it can not be derived in a precise way from the available data (this may be a feature ofthe scheme, rather than a bug!). There are several ways how to deal with this issue:

1.1 Ignore it completely, and derive from the graph only statistical information about the behavior of addresses. However, we believe that this will completely distort many types of statistical informationwe try to extract from the graph, e.g., what is the distribution of the number of bitcoins that users keep, how many bitcoins they receive and spend, how big are their typical transactions, etc. Since thescheme enables (and even encourages)  users to keep multiple addresses and to constantly shuffle bitcoins internally among their accounts, we believe that it is essential to find a way to distinguish between"internal" and "external" transactions, and thus to determine in some way what is the common ownership of different addresses.

1.2 Use our methodology, which is to assume that in most of the transactions, sending bitcoins from multiple addresses indicates that all these accounts are owned by a single entity. This classification istechnically easy to apply, but it creates two types of errors: We underestimate the common ownership of accounts just because we never saw it in the given transactions, and we overestimate it sinceoccasionally there may be multiple owners who send bitcoins in a single transaction. All the anecdotal evidence we saw so far indicates that overall we tend to underestimate the number of addresseswhich are associated with a single entity (as was demonstrated in the case of Instawallet, in which we found only about 1/3 ot the actual addresses associated with it), and that the errors in the otherdirection, while they exist, are not likely to distort our statistical conclusions in a major way.

1.3 Use a different methodology, which will be closer to the ground truth, and which can be derived either from the available data, or from reliable alternative sources. Here we need your help insuggesting such a methodology, which will be discussed by and accepted by most of the bitcoin community as better representing the issue of common ownership. It is always easier to complain about theshortcomings of one methodology than to suggest a better one!

For the purpose of statistical analysis of the data, what would be the best way to determine common ownership of addresses?
1167  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Adi Shamir's paper on bitcoin on: October 20, 2012, 05:07:00 PM
Here is Adi's response to my message:

Quote from: Adi Shamir
Dear Meni,

First of all, I would like to thank you and several other members of the bitcoin community for your public comments and private emails, which provided us with a lot of authoritative information about someof the intricacies of the scheme. We will be happy to add more discussion and clarifications to a revised version of our paper, which will hopefully clarify our methodology and add more relevant materialabout the quantitative aspects of the transaction graph.

I would like to address two issues which created the most heated discussion over the last few days:

1. While the notions of a bitcoin and of an address are completely clear, the notion of an owner is quite fuzzy since it can not be derived in a precise way from the available data (this may be a feature ofthe scheme, rather than a bug!). There are several ways how to deal with this issue:

1.1 Ignore it completely, and derive from the graph only statistical information about the behavior of addresses. However, we believe that this will completely distort many types of statistical informationwe try to extract from the graph, e.g., what is the distribution of the number of bitcoins that users keep, how many bitcoins they receive and spend, how big are their typical transactions, etc. Since thescheme enables (and even encourages)  users to keep multiple addresses and to constantly shuffle bitcoins internally among their accounts, we believe that it is essential to find a way to distinguish between"internal" and "external" transactions, and thus to determine in some way what is the common ownership of different addresses.

1.2 Use our methodology, which is to assume that in most of the transactions, sending bitcoins from multiple addresses indicates that all these accounts are owned by a single entity. This classification istechnically easy to apply, but it creates two types of errors: We underestimate the common ownership of accounts just because we never saw it in the given transactions, and we overestimate it sinceoccasionally there may be multiple owners who send bitcoins in a single transaction. All the anecdotal evidence we saw so far indicates that overall we tend to underestimate the number of addresseswhich are associated with a single entity (as was demonstrated in the case of Instawallet, in which we found only about 1/3 ot the actual addresses associated with it), and that the errors in the otherdirection, while they exist, are not likely to distort our statistical conclusions in a major way.

1.3 Use a different methodology, which will be closer to the ground truth, and which can be derived either from the available data, or from reliable alternative sources. Here we need your help insuggesting such a methodology, which will be discussed by and accepted by most of the bitcoin community as better representing the issue of common ownership. It is always easier to complain about theshortcomings of one methodology than to suggest a better one!

2. The question of how many bitcoins are dormant. Even though this was only one of our many findings, it was the one statistic that caught the attention of most commentators and web journalists. Webelieve that measuring this aspect is extremely important, since it implies some fundamental truths about whether the bitcoin scheme is used mostly to trade in goods or to speculate, and how thescheme will behave if its current users will change their current pattern of behavior. Once again , we have several possible approaches, and I would like to recruit your help in initiating a frank discussionin your community about how to measure this fundamental statistics in the most accurate way. We have spent a lot of time and effort in collecting all the data, but once we have it, it will be easy for us toadapt our measuring methodology based on your suggestions as a service to your community and as a contribution to the scientific study of the bitcoin scheme. However, there is one thing I would like toclarify: I do not want to have a target-shopping experiment, in which once you will see the results you will decide whether you like it or would prefer to change the methodology again in order to geta politically more appealing result. We thus propose to wait until some consensus emerges, and only then run the selected methodology on the data and announce the results.

2.1 In order to start this discussion, I would like to make an initial suggestion: Fortunately, the issue of dormant bitcoins can be made independent of the issue of common ownership of addresses(even though several comments we received argues the politically convenient point  that since our decisions about the later point did not absolutely match the ground truth, our results about dormantbitcoins were completely invalid). Let us thus work entirely at the level of addresses, paying no attention to our attempt to find such common ownerships. We propose to compile the followingstatistics: For every amount of time x (e.g., in units of full months), we will measure how many bitcoins were deposited into addresses in transactions that took place more than x months before ourcutoff date (May 13-th 2012), and were not followed by any later transaction in which the address  was one of the sending addresses.

2.2 Notice that if someone keeps moving his bitcoins every few days from one address to the next (which seems to be a relatively common behavior), we will not count these bitcoins at all as dormant(and in this sense we will underestimate the number of dormant coins) unless that user stopped doing this sometime before the relevant point in time (x months before the cutoff date), and in this casewe will only count these bitcoins once, in the last transfer which he executed (since all the previous transactions had a later outgoing transaction).

2.3. To deal with the issue of coins which were minted at the earliest period, when they had little value and could have been abandoned by early experimenters, we can also consider only transactionthat took place after a certain date.

2.4. To be fair, we will have to take into account that if we consider a large value of x, there were fewer coins at that time, so when we compute percentages, we will have to use in the denominatorthe number of coins that had been minted up to x months before the cutoff date.

I would appreciate it if you can bring this proposal to the attention of the bitcoind community, in order to initiate some discussion (and hopefully some kind of consensus). Once you tell us how we shouldmeasure the number of dormant coins in a way that will be accepted to the community, and assuming that this proposal is scientifically sound and technically doable), we will be happy to run theexperiment and report our findings.

Finally, I would like to explain a point that seemed to raise the level of paranoia in your community, and this is the involvement of the Citi Foundation in the project. I can assure you that it was ourdecision to use some of the money that the Weizmann Institute got as a gift from this foundation in order to fund some research on alternative payment systems, that the Citi Foundation had zeroinfluence on the choice of topic, that they did not get any information about our findings while the research was going on, and that they did not see our scientific report before we published it. Our research wasthus motivated by scientific curiosity about the bitcoin scheme, and we had no hidden motives to support or discredit it when we embarked on this project.

Best personal wishes,

Adi.
The tl;dr version:

1. They would like the help of the Bitcoin community for devising an optimal scheme to determine common ownership of coins.
2. They would like the help of the Bitcoin community for devising an optimal scheme to determine dormant coins.
3. There is nothing nefarious about the usage of Citi Foundation funding.

Please see:
How to determine common ownership of addresses? (Inspired by Shamir's paper)
How to determine dormant coins? (Inspired by Shamir's paper)
1168  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Happy halving day on: October 19, 2012, 07:17:06 AM
We've been thinking about this for a while, the proper event for the occasion is of course a block party.

In fact the exact date cannot be set until 4 days before the event. (Or more precisely, 4 days before the event you have a 24-hour window for when the event is 99.7% likely to occur, and a 16-hour window for 95.5%.)

When block 209999 is found the countdown starts: "600, 600, 600, 600, ... Happy block year!"
1169  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Proposal: merchant specified transaction fee in Bitcoin URI on: October 19, 2012, 06:50:08 AM
Is it really that bad? I mean, do you really want to make every price component explicit? Why just the transaction costs in particular, and not every other?
People should be aware of and responsible for the things they have an influence on. I as a customer have no influence on the raw materials used for the product and their cost. I have an influence on the payment method used and its cost.

In the particular case of bitcoin, explicit transaction fees imply the user not only has to see a tiny price component s/he not necessarily cares about, but s/he also has to choose how much to pay. Even if you manage to abstract the mining process, people will still be in doubt about how much to give. Customers tend to be lazy. IMHO it's better to leave this task to the merchant.
The customer doesn't have to choose anything, he delegates his responsibility to the client software. The software will come with default settings which work for 99.9% of cases. At the end of the year he will get a report "you spent 1.3 BTC on fees this year". The figure will probably be too small to care about, but if he wants he can compare it with friends who use different payment solutions, or tweak the fee settings.

He can display the total if the fee is calculated within the price, not outside of it. Like sale taxes in general.
True, that would mean the merchant wouldn't be able to know the exact amount he's going to receive before the transaction takes place. But as fees are supposed to be tiny this shouldn't be an issue. Parameters to specify a ceiling proportional to the transaction amount could also be available, solving this issue and at the same time forbidding an "evil customer" from arbitrarily creating a transaction in which the fee would be too large.
Yeah, this can work.
1170  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Adi Shamir's paper on bitcoin on: October 18, 2012, 06:49:07 PM
Been following this paper and the press resulting from it with interest...

And yet, am I incorrect in thinking the central thrust of the study is incorrect for the simple fact that most change goes to new addresses which are, by definition, unspent? This means that at any time, most coins will sit in "unspent" accounts, thereby appearing as though they are savings, when in reality they are just sitting there until they are spent normally.

Am I missing something or is this an absurd fatal flaw in their reasoning?
I believe you are correct, but I don't think it matters much. They say 60% of coins haven't moved in 3 months; those can safely be considered some kind of savings. So the actual amount of savings would be somewhere between 60% and 78%.

FWIW, I contacted them saying this (trimming opening and closing words):

Quote
1. The paper does not mention the concept of "change" (https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Change), and some of the comments imply the authors do not recognize its role in the transaction graph. When outputs are spent in a transaction they must be spent entirely; if there is more value in the output than the amount one wishes to send, if he wants to keep the rest he must send it to an address of his, known as a change address. The widely used clients use a newly generated address for change as an anonymity feature; but for the typical user it is not a deliberate attempt to do anything, it is just what happens by default. This clearly explains the "long chains" behavior.

2. The paper seems to conflate the blockchain, a database replicated on every node on the network by broadcasting blocks to peers on the network, and individual efforts to make the data easily accessible, such as blockexplorer.com and blockchain.info. The blockchain itself does not of course have HTML pages or what can be considered "hyperlinks". It may be the case that scraping those public service sites is easier than parsing the arcane database format of the blockchain, but this needs to be specified explicitly, otherwise the focus on HTML looks bizarre.

3. It is generally accepted that currency amounts in Bitcoin aren't capitalized, just like "dollar" isn't. The creator of Bitcoin is Satoshi, but the smallest Bitcoin denomination is a satoshi; I can have bitcoins or send 3.7 bitcoins, and the value of a bitcoin is $12; this happens in the Bitcoin system following the Bitcoin protocol with Bitcoin software, and Bitcoin is invaluable. This mistake occurs several times in the paper.

4. You state that 7M bitcoins are in savings account, but it is not completely clear what you characterize as such. It looks like an address which has never sent coins is considered savings; that is a poor characterization, for if everyone follows the guideline of not reusing addresses, 100% of coins at all times will be in address which have never sent, regardless of how widely bitcoins are circulated. A better candidate would be an address which has never sent and has received some coins as early as, say, 2 months ago.

5. The infamous statement that "A very important feature of the Bitcoin network is that a transaction involving multiple sending addresses can only be carried out by the common owner of all those addresses".
a. You mention quoting an official policy to that effect. I would like to ask for a reference, as I know of no such policy and cannot imagine one.
b. Technically, for an input to be valid its script needs to be satisfied, usually by providing a signature for the transaction which matches the public key referenced by the input. Regardless of any current implementation details, the signatures can be independent, there is no need for the owners to be one or to share their keys.
c. The Bitcoin protocol supports more than just "moving coins from point A to point B" transactions. A glimpse of some of the potential applications can be seen at https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Contracts. Some of them crucially rely on this ability to have multiple owners constructing a transaction together. In this sense, it actually is a very important feature of the Bitcoin network that multiple inputs do not need to share an owner.
d. In fact, one such application is p2p mixing, of the kind I discussed at https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=54266.0. These intentionally make it harder to use the transaction graph to deanonymize users.
e. In practice, most transactions on the network are simple transactions where multiple outputs of the same owner are merged, and advanced applications are not in wide use (if at all). Deducing that co-used addresses have a mutual owner is a reasonable assumption to make; but it is an assumption, it needs to be specified explicitly, and references to it being necessitated should be removed. Furthermore, this assumption - and any analysis dependent on it - will become increasingly less reasonable as advanced application find wider use.
1171  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Proposal: merchant specified transaction fee in Bitcoin URI on: October 18, 2012, 04:03:49 PM
Doing things is easy, getting used to things is hard. People routinely do things much much harder than thinking about transaction fees, because they are used to do them. We've been trained to think payment is free and therefore we flinch at the thought of having the fees made explicit.

When I think about how I want the world to look like in 10 years, I don't want people to be gently shielded from the "ugly truth" that there are tx fees. I want it to be common knowledge that tx fee is a tiny but existent cost of making payments. It will be small enough that most people won't have to dedicate much conscious thought to it. It may not be easy to get to this state, but it is trivial to be in this state.

If I lose the battle and we will need to hide the tx fees, your proposal can work. It only makes sense if every merchant does that, though. A merchant factoring in a lower fee can appear more attractive / profit more per sale, but will get more angry customer letters asking why the product wasn't shipped yet.

The 'right' fee will depend on the number of inputs used to create the paying transaction, the age of the coins used and the urgency with which the customer wants the transaction included in a block.

Only the person paying has this information.
Parameters can be specified, instead of an absolute amount. Like amount per kilobyte.
But then the merchant can't display the total cost of the product, which I thought was the whole point.
1172  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: 90 minutes for 1 block... on: October 18, 2012, 03:43:16 PM
to have a Mt Gox code you need to have at least one confirm. For me to do what you are saying is I will have to have a balance left with the bank of my BTC. It would be like a debt card not a credit card.

That will be find for most uses but I'm sure there is a case where fast will come in handy.
You can have Trustless, instant, off-the-chain Bitcoin payments. It does require you to tie up funds with a specific processor/bank; but it does not require you to have a balance, that is, the processor cannot steal or lose your coins, and if something goes wrong you get the tied-up coins back at the end of the term.

It's not perfect but I think it's powerful enough that the whole confirmation time debate is moot.
1173  Economy / Securities / Re: Unofficial Bitdaytrade deposit claims thread on: October 18, 2012, 03:27:06 PM
I lost 2 bitcoins but was never told what happened to the site or would I be getting my money back?
It is likely that you will not get this money back.
1174  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Proposal: merchant specified transaction fee in Bitcoin URI on: October 18, 2012, 03:14:06 PM
I'm vehemently opposed to this, as it is economically inefficient and opaque.
If it's really economically inefficient, the use of such feature will be spontaneously ruled out by market forces. In the end, nobody would use it.
But while the feature doesn't exist, you can't really claim that it's use would be inefficient. Reading the rest of your post I believe you're making your judgement by looking at what happens on the current scenario of state intervention in the fiat word.
The word "this" and the rest of these two paragraphs referred to what I quoted. I'm vehemently opposed to CC fees being always embedded in the price of stuff we buy. I'm not vehemently opposed to your suggestion (though I find it pointless). In this light I think most of your response to me is moot.

By your own admission your proposal is inspired by the current common situation (and the belief that it is the merchant's responsibility to receive payment), so denouncing it is a valid way to argue against your proposal.

Re state intervention - it only prevents having different prices for different payment methods. It would be better if this could be allowed, but it still leaves the issue relatively obscured, compared to having a specified price and the customer explicitly paying processor fees.

To recap, my two main objections are:
1. I don't believe that lacking this feature forces the user to know the details of the mining network.
2. There is no meaningful way in which a merchant expects a specific tx fee. The merchant wants to receive a certain amount himself and that the tx will be confirmed. Making sure that the tx is confirmed is the customer's client's responsibility.
1175  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Adi Shamir's paper on bitcoin on: October 18, 2012, 01:31:45 PM
Quote
[...]it is easier to explain why someone would send bitcoinshamir to itself rather than send bitcoinshamir to many unrelated addresses [...]
What the hell?
Relax, it's probably just another autocorrect failure.
http://www.autocorrectfail.org/
Hmmmmm, so we have his username. Now to find his password.
ITT: Trying to crack the user account of the father of cryptography. Muahahahaha!
lol! Probably "RSA123"
Shamir's security cannot be destroyed by any craft that we here possess. He is a fan of differential fault analysis, and only using it can it be unmade. A $5 wrench is the method of choice for inducing faults in humans.
1176  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Proposal: merchant specified transaction fee in Bitcoin URI on: October 18, 2012, 12:25:37 PM
If you observe most successful means of payment (credit cards, paypal etc), transaction fees are always embedded in the price of stuff we buy. They are never visible to the costumer. That's much more appealing than letting the costumer know that s/he's paying a fee
I'm vehemently opposed to this, as it is economically inefficient and opaque. The merchant doesn't choose or care much about the payment method used, he just knows how much he wants to get for the product. It is the responsibility of the customer, who wants the product, to get this payment to the merchant. He can choose whichever method he wants, based on its convenience, and should be the one to pay its costs. With the current sad state of affairs, customers who efficiently use cheap methods pay higher prices because of the free-riders who use expensive methods.

It's much better for a customer to know upfront when he signs up for Amex that their fees are higher than other CC, and be willing to pay it, than to have the cost hidden and then wonder why merchants don't want to accept his card. If customers could choose a CC based on its fee that they will pay, CC fees would be more competitive and lower, resulting in a lower total price of goods.

- even worse if it's up to the costumer to decide how much to leave as fee. They simply don't want to care about it, they care about the final price.
If the fee is low enough he doesn't need to consciously care about it. The client software can handle the day-to-day operations, and at the end of the month/year the customer can look at the total fees he paid and use it when deciding if to continue as is, change the software's fee policy, use a payment processor, etc.

Plus, in the case of bitcoin particularly, it's normally the receiver who's more interested in having the transaction confirmed faster.
The merchant sends the product when he is sufficiently satisfied with having received the payment. It is the customer who wants the product to be sent faster, and hence, that the payment will go through faster.

Looking at this another way: If the merchant trusts the customer not to double spend, there is no need for a fee or confirmation at all. If he doesn't, he'll want the transaction to be confirmed, regardless of its fee. So there is no meaningful sense in which the merchant wants a given fee, he wants a confirmation and it is the customer's client software's job to make sure they get one.
1177  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Proposal: A dual 2-key wallet system for trustless trade on: October 18, 2012, 11:59:53 AM
Would it be possible for both parties to somehow prove they have the key before and during the transactions to the adress.
Yes, proving you have a key is trivial, that's what message signing is for.

Both can be proven in court if identities are known.
If there is a court to go to when there's a problem, why would you need this whole system? Yes, the loss scenario is less common and manipulable than a straightforward payment, but still.

Brainstorming I can imagine some kind of rescue/backup transaction that would "unlock" and rollback the first transaction if certain conditions were met which would confirm from both parties that a rollback would be ok.

I might be wrong but I dont see Bitcoin as the system for that.
Well, you can use an oracle as a "3rd party" in the script. I don't know if it will be possible to have an oracle that is useful for this purpose, though.

Or each party can have a backup key, which is less protected (hence less prone to loss) and used in conjunction with an arbiter:
A & B || A & B2 & C || A2 & B & C
If the main key is lost, the transaction can still be completed with the backup key and the arbiter; if A manages to steal B2, he cannot complete the transaction without the arbiter; if A colludes with the arbiter, he cannot complete the transaction without stealing B2.
1178  Other / Meta / Re: Can I change my User Name ? on: October 16, 2012, 12:37:02 PM
I just want to edit my user name is it possible thank you  Wink

Donate.

A man of few words
He means that if you donate at least 10 BTC to the forum, you get donator status and can then change your username.
1179  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Technical Support / Re: Why do hashes begin with 0000000...? on: October 16, 2012, 12:14:16 PM
There isn't anything special or harder about an all zero hash.
If you ask me, "will you bet your life on the fact that no SHA-256 hash will be found by 2020 with a value of 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000, without SHA-256 being broken?", I'll say "sure", because this has a probability of about 1 in 10^50, and will thus not happen.

If you ask me the same about b0867d52439eedac556187087c69bbe6fdb3c47f266780775931068f18fae223, I will refuse. Why? Because I don't know how you came up with b0867d52439eedac556187087c69bbe6fdb3c47f266780775931068f18fae223. Maybe you generated it truly randomly (and then the answer is the same). But maybe you came up with it by calculating some SHA-256 hash, and then I will lose even before the bet began.

What makes me so confident in the 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 case, and not in the b0867d52439eedac556187087c69bbe6fdb3c47f266780775931068f18fae223 case, is that 0 has a much lower Kolmogorov complexity (and the describing program has no reference to anything remotely relevant to SHA-256).
1180  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Technical Support / Re: Why do hashes begin with 0000000...? on: October 16, 2012, 10:03:41 AM
You will know that we have reached the economic, technological and cosmological singularity once we've reached the 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 hash.

And when that happens, division by zero will became possible and universe will cease to exist.  Wink

To find "00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000" hash is not harder than to find "458264a810936934867095f02578963498570298345702946587165c845698074" one.
"00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000" has a lower Kolmogorov complexity, making finding it a more impressive achievement than "458264a810936934867095f02578963498570298345702946587165c845698074".

Of course, all it would mean is that SHA-256 has been sufficiently broken.
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