I think that people are just way more realistic than you are. Every system has its own flaws and points where it can be improved. It is just that bitcoin is the same as fiat but in some points it is better. So if you point out flaws of bitcoin but they are also present in fiat then this is the obvious reaction. Bitcoin is simply a modern fiat currency with a hard cap. Also it is a legal tender in some countries.

This whole thing is really like an accident where you know you should not look but at the same time it is so awful that you can't unsee it. It is the same for you USD that you have. IF you print a piece of paper than you also have nothing except a piece of paper. You can do the same with bitcoin or you can just not do it because bitcoin is not stupid fiat money that you can just create in unlimited amounts.
Somehow I sometimes think that user Snowshow is some old bitcoiner that sold his coins and now regrets it a lot  

Try helping a drugged out/alcoholic paranoid homeless person get off the street.   That will teach you things you'd rather not know, once you've learned them.   Then revisit that mark twain quote.   

Also learn about Information squares.  Its a simple concept.   When a 6 year old talks about things where you know they are wrong due to the fact you have more information then the 6 year old.  Your information square is larger then theirs.  You can see where the edges of their information stops.   But They cant. 

Now apply this to yourself. 

“No amount of evidence will ever persuade an idiot.” – Mark Twain

How about we leave it there?

That’s what Blockchain, Proof-of-Work and Nodes are for, to prevent any false information from entering. The longest/ most worked chain is the global we truth we all agree upon, because it’s able to outpace attackers. That is because it’s unlikely that 1 entity can gather as much hashing power as a whole network of honest miners, that get paid for their work and have economic incentives to stay honest. It’s just unlikely that a small entity can gather enough resources to outpace all of them. We have a really strong basis to assume that the transaction history is correct and is actually how it happened. This proved itself in practice too, so we’re here over a decade later with a correct transaction history and state of the blockchain, that was actually done without needing trust and a central entity to tell us what the truth is. That is actually backed by many scientific concepts that were used together in a clever way.

With traditional databases you don’t have this, you need a central authority to tell everyone what the „truth“ is, this information can be faked and is purely based on trust. You can change any traditional database in any way, in the moment or later on, they’re not append-only nor do they have any mechanism to preserve truth. And they’re not even open to the public. There will be no single way to prove the transaction history of a bank in 20 years from now is correct/ still exists, just like you can’t prove now, which transactions banks did 20 years ago. Nor will you ever have access to this information. The later we go back in time the harder it will be to get any data and the correct ledger state is just lost. With Bitcoin it’s preserved forever as long as the network is running and the incentives work, you can recover your money even in 100 years from now, if you have access to your keys. Your family will be able to access this money even 100 years now, unheard of of any bank. They can’t even preserve a financial system this long.

Go educate yourself how Bitcoin operates and manages money. Or you can repeat the same stupidity. I don't even read your responses anymore.

What could have been more stupidity than in someone who does not know and not willing to know how controversial his level of assimilation could be, we are talking about bitcoin which is a decentralized network that everyone seeks after to make a private life and be independent from the said government and political power over our finances, yet someone like you could still comes out and call it a ponzi scheme, the highest duration a ponzi scheme last is within a year, bitcoin is 13years and still counting yet you are in doubt.

Lmao it’s not some gossip that he’s talking about. Everything in life comes down to information, that is the base layer for everything. It is the most essential resource of any of them, and being able to study and use information is a big factor of what made humanity the dominant species on earth.

Your DNA carries genetic information. It decides how your organism is built and maintained. If you’re sick or healthy. That allows organism to have evolution. This information can be used or changed. For example in forensics to catch criminals, to do paternity tests etc. Dna is even used in computer science as a storage device, that’s what’s being researched currently.

Do you understand that computer science isn’t detached from reality slowly?

The whole world around us is made by information. It can be expressed by chemistry, math and physics. Each object is made up in some unique way, that decide it’s properties. How would you express the speed of light without math? Many discoveries would have never been possible if people didn’t express themselves in math. And if you don’t understand why the speed of light is important for society, you won’t be able to understand many other concepts too(in your case). Because your way of thinking has already many deficits.

Even language is basically the transmission of information. There are no universal laws behind it, it’s unprecise just made up by the imagination of humans and yet it works. We have a huge advantage over other living beings, because our language is precise enough to allow for complex communication. We’re thousands of kilometres away from each other and yet can still communicate. Something other living beings can’t. We can even still read writings of long dead people, their information is the only thing that survives. This is made possible by language. Math would be a kind of precise universal language and this is the basis computers use.

Societies are formed on the basis of information. We create laws, ideas, etc. Money is used as a tool to distribute resources in these societies. Once you realise that there are certain properties that determine what makes good and bad money, it’s not the way of transmission of these resources that decide it.

We used metal before, then paper, now digital systems. The properties of physical objects like paper or metal are not fitting enough to form a resistant kind of money, the information they’re transmitting can be forged with, and in golds case the physical properties limit how well you can transmit that information(lack of divisibility etc), which makes it a worse form of money.

But we can form information precisely trough computer science and programming languages. This allows for the creation of a money that perfectly fills out the desirable properties and is stored in a way that is safe from manipulation. The constraints of using something like paper and metal, that are made up by the physical world, are overcome like this. They weren’t made to be money in the first place, we repurposed these things to be used as money. Trough math we can precisely dictate the properties of a digital kind of money, that can perfectly fill out the properties we need. The result is Bitcoin. We didn’t repurpose something physical in an inefficient way, but created the best form of money that is currently possible from scratch. This is a tailor made solution. Society will be able to work better with unforged and higher quality information, than the constantly manipulated low quality mess we used before.


Go educate yourself how Bitcoin operates and manages money. Or you can repeat the same stupidity. I don't even read your responses anymore.

I now realize that I have found the Achilles heel in the mentality of this "Snowshow".

He doesn't think that mathematics is a valuable resource, therefore he doesn't understand that information is a resource.  Because they can't touch it, hold it in a bag, throw it at a wall.  You can't punch an idea.  And yet, it is one of the most powerful resources humankind has.

You know some of the earliest computers were used to calculate trajectories for artillery.  These "calculated trajectories" were used to successfully hit the enemy with shells of ammo, or explosives.  One cannot hold a "trajectory" in your hand, it's just numbers.  

But guess what, I bet these trajectories held great value to the commanders in the battlefield.  They were probably worth their weight in gold.  Or, now they may be worth there weight in bitcoins.

We just stated facts, so you just admitted that you see Bitcoin features as something with a positive connotation, if you interpret it as advertising, because advertisements usually try to sell you something. I stated several times that i don’t want you to buy any Bitcoin, even if you start to understand it.

Shocking :O. The network is running since it’s creation without fault almost. Gets upgrades and is being maintained. Does its job as an P2P electronic cash system, and other things. Shocking statement to say: Bitcoin does the job it’s supposed to do.

The irony is that you’re describing what happens in fiat. I give you the car, and you give me 5 paper stickers back with „500“ written on it. We act like it’s the most serious thing in the world, just because it came out of a specific printing press that is chosen by some entity(government).

Or when we’re using digital payments, it gets sent to some payment processors database and it takes days until that number gets written inside the database of my bank. There’s many hops to take and the whole architecture is a mess, outdated and insecure. And a pain for businesses:


Bitcoins whole architecture is way more elegant and efficient than the mess they have built. Doesn’t have the problems as above. So if you’re buying my car happily send me „stickers“ to Bitcoins ledger, i prefer it that way. It’s more secure, fraud free and i am in control. The whole process is completely transparent and i can watch every step. If there’s problems you have actual people to help you/ teach you here, and not some chat/ phone bot of a bank, because they don’t even care about support anymore.

People just won’t grasp that computers aren’t completely detached from the physical world. There’s over 15.000 nodes or more with the whole copy of the chain, that is more than any bank has. His money is literally saved around the entire world, instead of being stored by just some private company/ companies. He can recover it from anywhere with his keys. A nuke can hit his country and his money will still be safe. They all verify that the rules of the network are being enforced, manipulation would be detected fast. In his banks database we gotta trust what they’re doing, some central entity can decide what they want. Delete, manipulate whatever. It’s not transparent, nor is there some mechanism that can prevent it with a guarantee.

I see what you mean here, I see what you are trying to figure out.

You think some "resource" needs to be transferred, but you want this "resource" to be made of some atoms.  Or, at least that's what I think you meant.

There are material resources: computers, their wiring, the electricity that make them run are made of atoms, electrons, and charges that flow through the wires. These material resources help computers, the internet, and bitcoin to function in a timely manner, but they aren't necessary for the internet or bitcoin to function.  What you are missing, and can't seem to understand is that the "resource" incorporated in a bitcoin transaction is actually "informational".  It is wrapped up in its cryptography, in the mathematics that allow it to work.

There is value in understanding the following knowledge:  1+1=2.   If you can't understand why that type of knowledge is valuable, then you will never understand why exchanging bitcoins for products across the globe can have value.

Wo, the level of cognitive dissonance in that statement is rather high.  Most people's cognitive dissonance varies, on a scale of 1 to 10, most can be at 2 or 3.  It would seem yours goes to 11, and is permanently set at 11 as this thread shows.

About your little "5 paper stickers", what you seem to miss is that "on an alternate Earth"  (like in Sliders) those stickers might be the form of money, of some kind of payment system.  Maybe on that alternate Earth a system was setup a long time ago that made these little stickers have a kind of meaning that most agreed upon, so that it meant it had some value in that world, so that those people could exchange it for goods and services.

Here on this planet, there has been a long history of humans attaching a value, to an agreed upon item, and then this item is used as a base with which to exchange goods and services.  Maybe you should look this up on your own, but for example a long time ago we humans on this planet used shells as a form of money, then later some used silver bars, then it was small knives made of bronze, then instead of small knives it became easier to carry small metal coins with a stamped engraving. ... At some point paper money gets invented, with all its trappings, then credit cards with its trappings.

Then along comes an interesting invention that most call the "computer".  It is difficult to nail down the creation of the earliest computer, but around 1822 Charles Babbage is credited with creating a difference engine, which some credit as being one of the first mechanical computers.  Later he designs an analytical engine, which is considered the first Turing machine.  As far as I know, all computers these days are Turing machines.

Skipping ahead a bit -- by the 1950's we get electronic digital computers, which are far more successful than the older analog tube machines.  The transistor made a huge impact on getting these machines to shrink in size.

Then guess what happens next.  People notice that these machines can be linked electronically together, this would allow these machines to do more than any machine can individually.  Then in 1969 the US department of defense's Advanced Research Projects Agency (ARPA) awards a contract for development of the ARPANET.  This was the start of what we now use as the "internet".  You are able to read this comment on this page because of the work done to create the internet.  You are now using this "internet".

Then, sometime at the end of 2008 someone introduces, on the internet, a protocol that runs on the "internet", and which can be used to trade things, just as if it were money, as if it were the shells, or the pieces of metal, "coins", that the early humans used so many years ago.  Except that this electronic protocol has many new features that those old "coins" didn't have.  For example, this new protocol, let's call them bitcoins, can be sent via the internet, and it's a piece of electronic data that cannot be easily replicated, thus giving it value that will hold as one person sends it to another via the electronic channel, the internet.

So these "bitcoin" perform a similar function on this planet as your "5 paper stickers" do on that other Earth.

I realize you won't understand this, because either you are incapable of understanding, or because you pretend to not understand.  I simply leave this comment here for others who are still learning.

Are you out of arguments? Poor you.

Because i use the criteria that is used to evaluate money and not some OLTP Systems salesman hurt feelings.

Bitcoin does the job it’s supposed to do, no matter if a fiat market exists or not. I can transact either way, while your fiat payment method will always need counterparties and trust to work, which opens the doors to fraud and exploitation, without a guarantee to prevent this.

In your dreams maybe. Anyone can verify this information themselves from top to bottom. While it’s not even possible to audit the code of fiat payment systems. They can do false advertising without you ever being able to notice it.

He is making money from selling fiat infrastructure, probably shitting his pants of how much traction Bitcoin its getting and how many transactions lightning/ side chains can handle, as it will make his centralized, garbage irrelevant. With Open Source you only have to solve a problem once. When you asked a horse salesman what he thinks about cars, when they just gained traction, similar actions probably occurred. There is always some shitty salesman that wants to prevent innovations, because they are „dangerous“ and „harmful“(but just to his business).

There’s nothing that makes sure that it is something of interest, most emails are useless spam or uninteresting.

Keep ignoring reality. It has purchasing power that you can send over the internet, in a way that no shitty centralized fiat infrastructure can, and its saved into something that has the best monetary properties invented so far.

It’s not, it has more utility than fiat payments as there is no middle man, so you have payments without a counterparty risk. It’s literally impossible to get scammed like this, while your beloved author has the power to scam people, and everything relies on trust. For this reason alone it’s priceless.

There’s people like emigrants that want to send their families and friends money at home, but most of it is eaten by banks, governments or smugglers. They exploit the poorest of the poorest, something your author isn’t mentioning. With Bitcoin you can send money trough any border, smuggler or whatever corrupt barrier there is, that is preventing your money from reaching where it should go. Something that can change the world, when poor people can potentially fully receive their money in an unconfiscatable way in the future. The technology is here, now it’s just a matter of adoption. El Salvador is starting with it, it’s a legal tender so you can use it to purchase any resource you want, guaranteed.

And it’s not like only them could use something like this, any person benefits from not having a counterparty risk, because our counterparties(financial institutions) are completely reckless in their actions and completely devalue our money and negatively impact freedom to transact. Bitcoin is the definition of utility and the purest money there is. It will just disappoint you, if you want to use ur money as toilet paper, as it won’t waste time on being things that don’t matter.

Analogies isn't your strong point.

A "Thanks" sticker can't be sent across communication channels nearly instantly, in a censorship-resistant fashion. I can't send it across the world for a cent. It isn't resistant to confiscation. It can't be possessed in a divided manner. It doesn't grant me the access to an independent and transparent network, wherein users can verify that it has changed hands, without knowing who's the new owner. Sticker users can't verify who mints them, how many they are, how hard it is to create new ones, which part of the supply they own, because there's no transparency. Owning stickers doesn't give you the option to store messages on an immutable ledger.

With bitcoin, you do gain these benefits. That's why we're all willing to trade monetary value for it. You can whine about it, make videos, call it ponzi, lie about non-existent resources, bring friends to this thread, but you won't get to enjoy these benefits otherwise. We do.

Apart from the article being pure garbage and unproven accusation after unproven accusation that could fit to anything you apply to it. One example being this:

Sending email is utility, but sending value/ payments is not? The amount of mind bending is insane.

The author also has competing conflict of interests that he didnt explicity state, because he runs a company that sells OLTP Solutions¹. Making money on selling garbage, centralized fiat infrastructure, ofc this can be counted as a whole propaganda piece against Bitcoin then. From the writing style of providing no sources, the article already starting out with some wikipedia and the whole evaluation model already being completely unapplicable to have practical results(it can be applied to anything), we can already guess that this author has no practical experiences in academic writing, not a necessity but doesnt help his case either. The only piece of cred found was some shitty 399$ course on Blockchains². Why does it matter? If i used this shitty article as a reference in academia i would either get kicked out or cringed at heavily. Its no necessity to have a degree or anything to put out good information, but this one is a good example of why we have to analyze sources first. And again i dont care about his degree of education, as an academia degree isnt what defines education in the first place, but the quality of this article is a walking red flag and is unusable for any professional work.

And here as a end note, to make it obvious why stating conflict of interests matters and i didnt mention this for no reason:



[1] https://ca.linkedin.com/in/salbayat
[2] https://101blockchains.com/academy/ https://www.credential.net/18134a57-15cd-4fea-b333-a8a93b453729#gs.g7utld

You clearly do not understand what Bitcoin or money is
I wonder if you will call a fiat currency like dollar or ruble ponzi if it could benefit those who own substantial amount of the currency when it appreciate in value. If you have $10,000 in your savings account to buy a particular brand of car from another country that is worth $10,000 in its national currency , then the dollar appreciate in value by %10 while the value of the car remain thesame in its national currency, you will end up with extra $1000 after buying the car from another country due to the appreciation of dollar... That doesn't make dollar a Ponzi scheme... It only appreciated in value due demand and supply, and those who have dollar benefit from this especially when trading with countries with devalued currencies.  Same as using gold as currency(which was the case in olden days) ... Back then if there was alot of demand for gold it would appreciate in value and those with gold will have extra gold to buy more stuff. That doesn't make gold a Ponzi. Besides, ponzi scheme is said to be unsustainable but Bitcoin has remained sustainable to this day and it's model after gold in this manner.

By the way, Bitcoin is more than a currency, it is simply a Global Network/System for exchanging digital values in a very secure, unique & revolutionary way... That values include currency, messages, information, etc. It's a work in progress that can enable the exchange of any kind of digital values you can think. If will still be very useful if you eliminate the currency part of it. So it's not a Ponzi like you you imagine d

You've deliberately missed this one:

Oh my God! You are still here???

I don't know where you get your data about Bitcoin, but if I'm not mistaken, there will be maximum 21 million Bitcoin. Not 2.1 quadrillion. Do you even check things before you post nonsense?

If Bitcoin is fraud, how come no one is being arrested for using it?

@shitshow, excuse me @snowshow, you are the one who started this troll. Your ignorante stand is the ridiculous one here. I tell you once more that your shiat coin represents shit. Debt is no resource as it has no value. You only say that because that's what you have been told by keynsian dumb fucks or read somewhere in the internet and you just swallowed it like a lamb. You have no own critical reasoning. You just soak up the first crap you're given. So, don't keep repeating the same old shit keysian dum asses told you. Because that's what you've been doing for the last 30 or 40 pages. Is that your shiat coin represents a quantity of debt. Debt created by banks... As these 2 statements could ever give any value/resource to debt. No, there is no value in debt.There is only keynsian imagination in debt. There is only your imagination in debt and in your shiat coin.
And what banks balance seets tells you means nothing because they can put there whatever they want, true or false, that you'll kust swallow it like the lamb you are.

On the other end, Bitcoin has value basaed on technology, criptography, math, computer science and through all properties of a hard/sound money. But you, as a lam you are, can only soak in the crap you were given and you can't even judge that same crap and add 2 to 2 and see that something is not adding up.

And more, you are refuting nothing. Your claims are just more of keynesian crap. Those lords you menitoned all made their fortunes with you shiat coin while others lost evertything to those fucks. Give an example, just one, since 2009 of the same happening in the Bitcoin network, due to the system itself. And don't bring mtgox or any other custodial services or any other shit like that, because that has nothing to do with the Bitcoin network it self. JUST SAYING!

And yet that representation comes as zero comfort to anyone who has lost their money in a bank collapse.  Representations guarantee nothing in practice.  Lost savings are lost.  End of story.

Horseshit.  Complete and utter horseshit.  If you can't understand fiat well enough to understand why agencies like the FSCS exist, or why millionaires put their money in property/art/etc, then you clearly aren't in a position to argue any further on this point.  You are too ignorant and misinformed to present any credible arguments against Bitcoin.

What you keep failing to understand is that actually Bitcoin represents way better any resource than your shit money. That's a fact and you can't accept it, or at least don't want to accept it. No matter how many times people try to show you by means of 2 + 2, you keep repeating yourself over and over again about what is debt, what it represents, what fiat money do, what it doesn't do, bla bla bla as if you were telling us something we don't know.
You're like almost 20 years late my friend. We know everything you seem to know and we are showing knowledge like 20 years ahead of you.

But as I told you before, keep going with the troll, while I'm getting more and more useless numbers of that scheme Satoshi created while you are getting nothing and even more, you're losing as time passes by! Once more HFST.BTCBTCBTCBTC

Lets test these claims in practice.

Recent Bank runs in China:

More infos here:

• Did the system pay the owed money back, when the banks couldnt? No. (Just up to $7,442, but we will never be able to verifiy if it actually happens, we can try to get more infos on friday when the money should be paid)
• Could people withdraw their money, that was worked for a long time? No.
• Do running living costs care, if you cant pay now, because your bank doesnt work? No.
• Life savings lost forever? Yes.
• So if the customers didnt get their money back, what was repaid to them? State violence and silence by the world. https://twitter.com/Byron_Wan/status/1546014495784349696 https://twitter.com/Byron_Wan/status/1546025798145957888

Does this only happen in „third world“ countries?

• First of all, it doesnt.
• Second of all, every human in the world has the right to keep their life savings and money they worked for, no matter where theyre from. A wipeout has consequences that cant be made unhappened later on.

What are your practical suggestion for a person that just lost millions, or 40 years of work, without having done anything wrong?

After your logic, a victim of these things in china, would have been fallen for a scam if they put their money into Bitcoin, even tho they would still have it now. And they wouldnt have been scammed by having their money in fiat, even tho people just lost everything.

When banking system was created, the bills were attributed some value, something we today call as fiat currency. Its nothing but a piece of paper backed by reserve bank. Still it changed the way we do transactions( Previously it was barter). Then came the online banking, but it lacked the flexibility of true digital currency. That is where satoshi saw opportunity and gave us a system of online currencies, today we call as crypto, which can help us make blockchain based transaction. Which outweighs fiat or online banking.