How Satoshi Nakamoto Fooled the World

[arcmetal]

...

Sure, paper stickers can be money because paper is a resource. Although the utility of such resource is small, in theory you can at least compare its degree of utility to the degrees of utility of other resources. But in the Nakamoto scheme, you cannot even show stickers or tokens, neither digital nor paper ones.. All you can show is a number in your wallet that represent the amount of digital tokens. Giving up the actual, valuable resources just because a system of an anonymous person will tell you that you hold a specific amount of tokens that you cannot even show, is the stupidest thing humans ever invented. Putting money in this stupidity because you hope you'll make some money is one thing. But trying to defend it, by writing endless rants about freedom, revolution, new money, etc. is the stupidity of a high order. I mean, just taking a small look on what some guys here are writing and you don't know whether to laugh or to cry.

I see what you mean here, I see what you are trying to figure out.

You think some "resource" needs to be transferred, but you want this "resource" to be made of some atoms.  Or, at least that's what I think you meant.

There are material resources: computers, their wiring, the electricity that make them run are made of atoms, electrons, and charges that flow through the wires. These material resources help computers, the internet, and bitcoin to function in a timely manner, but they aren't necessary for the internet or bitcoin to function.  What you are missing, and can't seem to understand is that the "resource" incorporated in a bitcoin transaction is actually "informational".  It is wrapped up in its cryptography, in the mathematics that allow it to work.

There is value in understanding the following knowledge:  1+1=2.   If you can't understand why that type of knowledge is valuable, then you will never understand why exchanging bitcoins for products across the globe can have value.

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[tadamichi]

I mean really. You act like an advertising bot. Participants in this thread also.

We just stated facts, so you just admitted that you see Bitcoin features as something with a positive connotation, if you interpret it as advertising, because advertisements usually try to sell you something. I stated several times that i don’t want you to buy any Bitcoin, even if you start to understand it.

Just take a look at this statement of yours: "Bitcoin does the job it’s supposed to do."

Shocking :O. The network is running since it’s creation without fault almost. Gets upgrades and is being maintained. Does its job as an P2P electronic cash system, and other things. Shocking statement to say: Bitcoin does the job it’s supposed to do.

What job? If you give me a car and I give you back 5 paper stickers with the word "Thanks", and this gets written in some database as "5 THX", what job would that stickers and data about them do? What that has to do with the concepts of economy, payment or transactions? Nothing.

The irony is that you’re describing what happens in fiat. I give you the car, and you give me 5 paper stickers back with „500“ written on it. We act like it’s the most serious thing in the world, just because it came out of a specific printing press that is chosen by some entity(government).

Or when we’re using digital payments, it gets sent to some payment processors database and it takes days until that number gets written inside the database of my bank. There’s many hops to take and the whole architecture is a mess, outdated and insecure. And a pain for businesses:

Fraud: Over two-thirds of merchants we surveyed as part of our VotE: Merchant Study 2021 recorded a year- over-year increase in fraud volume – more than one-third indicated that the increase was significant. The real concern here is much bigger than losses. This year, respondents said their number one concern about fraud was the customer experience impact. Merchants are concerned about jeopardizing trust if they can’t keep bad actors away, but they’re also concerned about creating friction for their most loyal customers. One thing is clear: Manual review teams won’t be able to scale fast enough to effectively address the growth of e-commerce and expedited fulfillment – some degree of automation is imperative

False declines: In-store, the authorization rate for card transactions is in the high-90 percentage range. Online, it hovers in the mid-80s. That means in the ballpark of one in seven e-commerce transactions are being turned away, and many of those are good transactions where an incorrect assessment was made by the merchant or card issuer. We estimate that more than $16bn in the past 12 months has been turned away due to false declines in the US alone. Many tactics, including local acquiring and data sharing between card issuers and fraud-prevention providers, can help reclaim some of this challenge. Ralph Dangelmaier, CEO of BlueSnap, pointed out that A/B testing across acquiring banks is a key tactic his company leverages to help merchants optimize authorizations.

$16.3bn in abandoned purchases over the past 12 months due to false positive transaction declines

Bitcoins whole architecture is way more elegant and efficient than the mess they have built. Doesn’t have the problems as above. So if you’re buying my car happily send me „stickers“ to Bitcoins ledger, i prefer it that way. It’s more secure, fraud free and i am in control. The whole process is completely transparent and i can watch every step. If there’s problems you have actual people to help you/ teach you here, and not some chat/ phone bot of a bank, because they don’t even care about support anymore.

I see what you mean here, I see what you are trying to figure out.

You think some "resource" needs to be transferred, but you want this "resource" to be made of some atoms.  Or, at least that's what I think you meant.

There are material resources: computers, their wiring, the electricity that make them run are made of atoms, electrons, and charges that flow through the wires. These material resource help computers, the internet, and bitcoin to function in a timely manner, but they aren't necessary for the internet or bitcoin to function.  What you are missing, and can't seem to understand is that the "resource" incorporated in a bitcoin transaction is actually "informational".  It is wrapped up in its cryptography, in the mathematics that allow it to work.

There is value in understanding the following knowledge:  1+1=2.   If you can't understand why that type of knowledge is valuable, then you will never understand why exchanging bitcoins for products across the globe can have value.

People just won’t grasp that computers aren’t completely detached from the physical world. There’s over 15.000 nodes or more with the whole copy of the chain, that is more than any bank has. His money is literally saved around the entire world, instead of being stored by just some private company/ companies. He can recover it from anywhere with his keys. A nuke can hit his country and his money will still be safe. They all verify that the rules of the network are being enforced, manipulation would be detected fast. In his banks database we gotta trust what they’re doing, some central entity can decide what they want. Delete, manipulate whatever. It’s not transparent, nor is there some mechanism that can prevent it with a guarantee.

[darkv0rt3x]

Bitcoin is not "cryptocurrency". You're confusing things and messing all up just like @Shitshow!.

You should listen things like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwWVKqpxZtI

See what he says about fiat money... And think again and try again!

Please learn to read what is written. 

I voted for Ron Paul and have been a member of RonPaulForums.com since it's inception.  I understand the fiat money issue.  Time is a good teacher.

So why does it seems to me that you are kind of deffending the same idea @ShitShow is trying to put out that Bitcoin are imaginary numbers and all that crap, which is obviously a very lame attempt to decredit Bitcoin and also that Bitcoin is a Ponzi scheme, when in fac this is what happens in fiat system?
And also why are you putting Bitcoin in the same bag as "cryptocurrencies"? I'm kinda lost in your position!

What job? If you give me a car and I give you back 5 paper stickers with the word "Thanks", and this gets written in some database as "5 THX", what job would that stickers and data about them do? What that has to do with the concepts of economy, payment or transactions? Nothing.

The irony is that you’re describing what happens in fiat. I give you the car, and you give me 5 paper stickers back with „500“ written on it. We act like it’s the most serious thing in the world, just because it came out of a specific printing press that is chosen by some entity(government).

Or when we’re using digital payments, it gets sent to some payment processors database and it takes days until that number gets written inside the database of my bank. There’s many hops to take and the whole architecture is a mess, outdated and insecure. And a pain for businesses:

I said this, at least twice. The function shiat money bills do, Bitcoin does it 10x better, if not more, considering all the properties that a sound/hard money like Bitcoin has! But he keeps repeating the same thing over an over, as if by repeating them over and over, they could somehow enter our heads and we get brainwashed by the constant repetition. Well, that might work with lies, that when you tell them a lot, maybe they become truth for some lower level IQ people, but not all!

Shiat money has been working because the majority of people was convinced (excuse me, coerced) to accept that governments are turstfull enough to say that those pieces of paper hold some (here, yes) imaginary amount of value (representing the debt the government creates/issue), has in fact that value. So, it's being backed by something you can't even palpate, see, smell, toutch...

[Snowshow]

...

Sure, paper stickers can be money because paper is a resource. Although the utility of such resource is small, in theory you can at least compare its degree of utility to the degrees of utility of other resources. But in the Nakamoto scheme, you cannot even show stickers or tokens, neither digital nor paper ones.. All you can show is a number in your wallet that represent the amount of digital tokens. Giving up the actual, valuable resources just because a system of an anonymous person will tell you that you hold a specific amount of tokens that you cannot even show, is the stupidest thing humans ever invented. Putting money in this stupidity because you hope you'll make some money is one thing. But trying to defend it, by writing endless rants about freedom, revolution, new money, etc. is the stupidity of a high order. I mean, just taking a small look on what some guys here are writing and you don't know whether to laugh or to cry.

I see what you mean here, I see what you are trying to figure out.

You think some "resource" needs to be transferred, but you want this "resource" to be made of some atoms.  Or, at least that's what I think you meant.

There are material resources: computers, their wiring, the electricity that make them run are made of atoms, electrons, and charges that flow through the wires. These material resources help computers, the internet, and bitcoin to function in a timely manner, but they aren't necessary for the internet or bitcoin to function.  What you are missing, and can't seem to understand is that the "resource" incorporated in a bitcoin transaction is actually "informational".  It is wrapped up in its cryptography, in the mathematics that allow it to work.

There is value in understanding the following knowledge:  1+1=2.   If you can't understand why that type of knowledge is valuable, then you will never understand why exchanging bitcoins for products across the globe can have value.

The level of stupidity in your statements is stunning. You're saying that no resources need to be transferred in a transaction. WTF?! How's that a transaction then? You gave your car to someone and some anonymous people just write down that you have 5 tokens, that you cannot even show. How's that a transaction? How do you know what degree of utility can you get in return for the degree of utility that a car can provide? I mean,  you know this whole thing  is stupid as fuck. But instead of admitting this, you just say: 'well, I guess nothing needs to be transferred in a transaction. No resource. Nothing. It's enough to just write some number into a database.' You people are literally out of your minds. I understand those that want to get some money out of this Ponzi scheme. But trying to defend this as some revolutionary invention is crazy.

[Snowshow]

I mean really. You act like an advertising bot. Participants in this thread also.

We just stated facts, so you just admitted that you see Bitcoin features as something with a positive connotation, if you interpret it as advertising, because advertisements usually try to sell you something. I stated several times that i don’t want you to buy any Bitcoin, even if you start to understand it.

Just take a look at this statement of yours: "Bitcoin does the job it’s supposed to do."

Shocking :O. The network is running since it’s creation without fault almost. Gets upgrades and is being maintained. Does its job as an P2P electronic cash system, and other things. Shocking statement to say: Bitcoin does the job it’s supposed to do.

What job? If you give me a car and I give you back 5 paper stickers with the word "Thanks", and this gets written in some database as "5 THX", what job would that stickers and data about them do? What that has to do with the concepts of economy, payment or transactions? Nothing.

The irony is that you’re describing what happens in fiat. I give you the car, and you give me 5 paper stickers back with „500“ written on it. We act like it’s the most serious thing in the world, just because it came out of a specific printing press that is chosen by some entity(government).

Or when we’re using digital payments, it gets sent to some payment processors database and it takes days until that number gets written inside the database of my bank. There’s many hops to take and the whole architecture is a mess, outdated and insecure. And a pain for businesses:

Fraud: Over two-thirds of merchants we surveyed as part of our VotE: Merchant Study 2021 recorded a year- over-year increase in fraud volume – more than one-third indicated that the increase was significant. The real concern here is much bigger than losses. This year, respondents said their number one concern about fraud was the customer experience impact. Merchants are concerned about jeopardizing trust if they can’t keep bad actors away, but they’re also concerned about creating friction for their most loyal customers. One thing is clear: Manual review teams won’t be able to scale fast enough to effectively address the growth of e-commerce and expedited fulfillment – some degree of automation is imperative

False declines: In-store, the authorization rate for card transactions is in the high-90 percentage range. Online, it hovers in the mid-80s. That means in the ballpark of one in seven e-commerce transactions are being turned away, and many of those are good transactions where an incorrect assessment was made by the merchant or card issuer. We estimate that more than $16bn in the past 12 months has been turned away due to false declines in the US alone. Many tactics, including local acquiring and data sharing between card issuers and fraud-prevention providers, can help reclaim some of this challenge. Ralph Dangelmaier, CEO of BlueSnap, pointed out that A/B testing across acquiring banks is a key tactic his company leverages to help merchants optimize authorizations.

$16.3bn in abandoned purchases over the past 12 months due to false positive transaction declines

Bitcoins whole architecture is way more elegant and efficient than the mess they have built. Doesn’t have the problems as above. So if you’re buying my car happily send me „stickers“ to Bitcoins ledger, i prefer it that way. It’s more secure, fraud free and i am in control. The whole process is completely transparent and i can watch every step. If there’s problems you have actual people to help you/ teach you here, and not some chat/ phone bot of a bank, because they don’t even care about support anymore.

I see what you mean here, I see what you are trying to figure out.

You think some "resource" needs to be transferred, but you want this "resource" to be made of some atoms.  Or, at least that's what I think you meant.

There are material resources: computers, their wiring, the electricity that make them run are made of atoms, electrons, and charges that flow through the wires. These material resource help computers, the internet, and bitcoin to function in a timely manner, but they aren't necessary for the internet or bitcoin to function.  What you are missing, and can't seem to understand is that the "resource" incorporated in a bitcoin transaction is actually "informational".  It is wrapped up in its cryptography, in the mathematics that allow it to work.

There is value in understanding the following knowledge:  1+1=2.   If you can't understand why that type of knowledge is valuable, then you will never understand why exchanging bitcoins for products across the globe can have value.

People just won’t grasp that computers aren’t completely detached from the physical world. There’s over 15.000 nodes or more with the whole copy of the chain, that is more than any bank has. His money is literally saved around the entire world, instead of being stored by just some private company/ companies. He can recover it from anywhere with his keys. A nuke can hit his country and his money will still be safe. They all verify that the rules of the network are being enforced, manipulation would be detected fast. In his banks database we gotta trust what they’re doing, some central entity can decide what they want. Delete, manipulate whatever. It’s not transparent, nor is there some mechanism that can prevent it with a guarantee.

Go educate yourself how banks operate and manage debt. Or you can repeat the same stupidity. I don't even read your responses anymore.

[arcmetal]

...

Sure, paper stickers can be money because paper is a resource. Although the utility of such resource is small, in theory you can at least compare its degree of utility to the degrees of utility of other resources. But in the Nakamoto scheme, you cannot even show stickers or tokens, neither digital nor paper ones.. All you can show is a number in your wallet that represent the amount of digital tokens. Giving up the actual, valuable resources just because a system of an anonymous person will tell you that you hold a specific amount of tokens that you cannot even show, is the stupidest thing humans ever invented. Putting money in this stupidity because you hope you'll make some money is one thing. But trying to defend it, by writing endless rants about freedom, revolution, new money, etc. is the stupidity of a high order. I mean, just taking a small look on what some guys here are writing and you don't know whether to laugh or to cry.

I see what you mean here, I see what you are trying to figure out.

You think some "resource" needs to be transferred, but you want this "resource" to be made of some atoms.  Or, at least that's what I think you meant.

There are material resources: computers, their wiring, the electricity that make them run are made of atoms, electrons, and charges that flow through the wires. These material resources help computers, the internet, and bitcoin to function in a timely manner, but they aren't necessary for the internet or bitcoin to function.  What you are missing, and can't seem to understand is that the "resource" incorporated in a bitcoin transaction is actually "informational".  It is wrapped up in its cryptography, in the mathematics that allow it to work.

There is value in understanding the following knowledge:  1+1=2.   If you can't understand why that type of knowledge is valuable, then you will never understand why exchanging bitcoins for products across the globe can have value.

The level of stupidity in your statements is stunning. You're saying that no resources need to be transferred in a transaction. WTF?! How's that a transaction then? You gave your car to someone and some anonymous people just write down that you have 5 tokens, that you cannot even show. How's that a transaction? How do you know what degree of utility can you get in return for the degree of utility that a car can provide? I mean,  you know this whole thing  is stupid as fuck. But instead of admitting this, you just say: 'well, I guess nothing needs to be transferred in a transaction. No resource. Nothing. It's enough to just write some number into a database.' You people are literally out of your minds. I understand those that want to get some money out of this Ponzi scheme. But trying to defend this as some revolutionary invention is crazy.

Ha, gotcha.

I tend to keep my comments simple and succinct.  Any normal person would easily be able to follow my comment's logic. 

Your reply, on the other hand, shows that you are intentionally pretending to misunderstand. 

You are projecting.

[tadamichi]

Go educate yourself how banks operate and manage debt. Or you can repeat the same stupidity. I don't even read your responses anymore.

Translation = the troll is beat and gave up.

[arcmetal]

...

Sure, paper stickers can be money because paper is a resource. Although the utility of such resource is small, in theory you can at least compare its degree of utility to the degrees of utility of other resources. But in the Nakamoto scheme, you cannot even show stickers or tokens, neither digital nor paper ones.. All you can show is a number in your wallet that represent the amount of digital tokens. Giving up the actual, valuable resources just because a system of an anonymous person will tell you that you hold a specific amount of tokens that you cannot even show, is the stupidest thing humans ever invented. Putting money in this stupidity because you hope you'll make some money is one thing. But trying to defend it, by writing endless rants about freedom, revolution, new money, etc. is the stupidity of a high order. I mean, just taking a small look on what some guys here are writing and you don't know whether to laugh or to cry.

I see what you mean here, I see what you are trying to figure out.

You think some "resource" needs to be transferred, but you want this "resource" to be made of some atoms.  Or, at least that's what I think you meant.

There are material resources: computers, their wiring, the electricity that make them run are made of atoms, electrons, and charges that flow through the wires. These material resources help computers, the internet, and bitcoin to function in a timely manner, but they aren't necessary for the internet or bitcoin to function.  What you are missing, and can't seem to understand is that the "resource" incorporated in a bitcoin transaction is actually "informational".  It is wrapped up in its cryptography, in the mathematics that allow it to work.

There is value in understanding the following knowledge:  1+1=2.   If you can't understand why that type of knowledge is valuable, then you will never understand why exchanging bitcoins for products across the globe can have value.

The level of stupidity in your statements is stunning. You're saying that no resources need to be transferred in a transaction. WTF?! How's that a transaction then? You gave your car to someone and some anonymous people just write down that you have 5 tokens, that you cannot even show. How's that a transaction? How do you know what degree of utility can you get in return for the degree of utility that a car can provide? I mean,  you know this whole thing  is stupid as fuck. But instead of admitting this, you just say: 'well, I guess nothing needs to be transferred in a transaction. No resource. Nothing. It's enough to just write some number into a database.' You people are literally out of your minds. I understand those that want to get some money out of this Ponzi scheme. But trying to defend this as some revolutionary invention is crazy.

I now realize that I have found the Achilles heel in the mentality of this "Snowshow".

He doesn't think that mathematics is a valuable resource, therefore he doesn't understand that information is a resource.  Because they can't touch it, hold it in a bag, throw it at a wall.  You can't punch an idea.  And yet, it is one of the most powerful resources humankind has.

You know some of the earliest computers were used to calculate trajectories for artillery.  These "calculated trajectories" were used to successfully hit the enemy with shells of ammo, or explosives.  One cannot hold a "trajectory" in your hand, it's just numbers.  

But guess what, I bet these trajectories held great value to the commanders in the battlefield.  They were probably worth their weight in gold.  Or, now they may be worth there weight in bitcoins.

[darkv0rt3x]

...

Sure, paper stickers can be money because paper is a resource. Although the utility of such resource is small, in theory you can at least compare its degree of utility to the degrees of utility of other resources. But in the Nakamoto scheme, you cannot even show stickers or tokens, neither digital nor paper ones.. All you can show is a number in your wallet that represent the amount of digital tokens. Giving up the actual, valuable resources just because a system of an anonymous person will tell you that you hold a specific amount of tokens that you cannot even show, is the stupidest thing humans ever invented. Putting money in this stupidity because you hope you'll make some money is one thing. But trying to defend it, by writing endless rants about freedom, revolution, new money, etc. is the stupidity of a high order. I mean, just taking a small look on what some guys here are writing and you don't know whether to laugh or to cry.

I see what you mean here, I see what you are trying to figure out.

You think some "resource" needs to be transferred, but you want this "resource" to be made of some atoms.  Or, at least that's what I think you meant.

There are material resources: computers, their wiring, the electricity that make them run are made of atoms, electrons, and charges that flow through the wires. These material resources help computers, the internet, and bitcoin to function in a timely manner, but they aren't necessary for the internet or bitcoin to function.  What you are missing, and can't seem to understand is that the "resource" incorporated in a bitcoin transaction is actually "informational".  It is wrapped up in its cryptography, in the mathematics that allow it to work.

There is value in understanding the following knowledge:  1+1=2.   If you can't understand why that type of knowledge is valuable, then you will never understand why exchanging bitcoins for products across the globe can have value.

The level of stupidity in your statements is stunning. You're saying that no resources need to be transferred in a transaction. WTF?! How's that a transaction then? You gave your car to someone and some anonymous people just write down that you have 5 tokens, that you cannot even show. How's that a transaction? How do you know what degree of utility can you get in return for the degree of utility that a car can provide? I mean,  you know this whole thing  is stupid as fuck. But instead of admitting this, you just say: 'well, I guess nothing needs to be transferred in a transaction. No resource. Nothing. It's enough to just write some number into a database.' You people are literally out of your minds. I understand those that want to get some money out of this Ponzi scheme. But trying to defend this as some revolutionary invention is crazy.

Go back 40 pages and see how many stupidity you have wrote over the pages. The non sense, the contraditions, the lies, etc. And further more, the amount of times you repeate yourself over and over again. You are either a resilient troller and you just keep trying the troll while deep there you understand what is happening with the fiat system but won't admit it or you are really some retard paid by someone to keep this thread going with the shit chat you've been doing for almots 40 pages!

[JayJuanGee]

[edited out]

I see what you mean here, I see what you are trying to figure out.

You think some "resource" needs to be transferred, but you want this "resource" to be made of some atoms.  Or, at least that's what I think you meant.

There are material resources: computers, their wiring, the electricity that make them run are made of atoms, electrons, and charges that flow through the wires. These material resources help computers, the internet, and bitcoin to function in a timely manner, but they aren't necessary for the internet or bitcoin to function.  What you are missing, and can't seem to understand is that the "resource" incorporated in a bitcoin transaction is actually "informational".  It is wrapped up in its cryptography, in the mathematics that allow it to work.

There is value in understanding the following knowledge:  1+1=2.   If you can't understand why that type of knowledge is valuable, then you will never understand why exchanging bitcoins for products across the globe can have value.

Hahahahaha

You seem to be getting at some of the crux of Snowshow's apparent difficulties to engage in abstract thinking.. so in that regard, he apparently is not having an easy time to assign value to anything that is not physically graspable.. ..

Many kids cannot really engage in abstract thinking before they are 5 years old or so, and surely, abstract thinking is not an absolute, but instead something that likely builds in the sense that some kids will be capable of abstract thinking sooner than others, and surely some adults have a lot of difficulties with abstract thinking..

Surely Snowshow is not completely devoid of abstract thinking, but instead he seems to ONLY be selectively applying it...... and so maybe one of the ONLY services that Snowshow happens to be providing here is a springboard for several of us to continuously illustrate the various ways that he is a purposeful dumbfuck regarding various bitcoin basics - and the same is true when he might apply some abstract principles (or do we call it pure faith and belief) to the powers and workability to various fiat systems, while at the same time failing/refusing to appreciate that bitcoin is even less abstract and fantastical than the many belief and faith hoops that have to be achieved if believing in fiat systems... in that regard, bitcoin reveals itself as such a concrete kind of system in which ongoingly verifying of the ledger contributes towards the recognition (for those able to see it) that bitcoin is the most grounded of value systems (thus soundest of monies).. so in that sense less abstract than fiat systems.

Go educate yourself how banks operate and manage debt. Or you can repeat the same stupidity. I don't even read your responses anymore.

Translation = the troll is beat and gave up.

Hahahaha

Snowshow seems to hardly know if he is coming or going.. so that's why he put a sock puppet in here too..

Of course, we already know that either he does not read or if he does read, he does not respond to actual substantive points or reality that undermine his various ongoingly lame stances...

And yeah sometimes he does bring up or refer to some of the points when he thinks that he can spin them in some kind of an abstract way (which does show that he is capable of abstract thinking and even abstract presentations)...

So if he is not dumb. .then what is he?  I know.. I know.. I know... I am not expecting that any of us are that fooled into thinking that Snowshow is even trying to make any progress beyond his various ongoingly dumbass talking-points, and maybe even he is frustrated from time to time regarding how little purpose he seems to be playing in this whole matter beyond just serving as a kind of ongoing comic relief.. to the extent that is even helping anyone to get some laughter at the dweeb..   

[arcmetal]

[edited out]

I see what you mean here, I see what you are trying to figure out.

You think some "resource" needs to be transferred, but you want this "resource" to be made of some atoms.  Or, at least that's what I think you meant.

There are material resources: computers, their wiring, the electricity that make them run are made of atoms, electrons, and charges that flow through the wires. These material resources help computers, the internet, and bitcoin to function in a timely manner, but they aren't necessary for the internet or bitcoin to function.  What you are missing, and can't seem to understand is that the "resource" incorporated in a bitcoin transaction is actually "informational".  It is wrapped up in its cryptography, in the mathematics that allow it to work.

There is value in understanding the following knowledge:  1+1=2.   If you can't understand why that type of knowledge is valuable, then you will never understand why exchanging bitcoins for products across the globe can have value.

Hahahahaha

You seem to be getting at some of the crux of Snowshow's apparent difficulties to engage in abstract thinking.. so in that regard, he apparently is not having an easy time to assign value to anything that is not physically graspable.. ..

Many kids cannot really engage in abstract thinking before they are 5 years old or so, and surely, abstract thinking is not an absolute, but instead something that likely builds in the sense that some kids will be capable of abstract thinking sooner than others, and surely some adults have a lot of difficulties with abstract thinking..

You highlight something I had been noticing.  My comments seem to be getting simpler and simpler, as though I was being forced to remove the layers of abstraction.  It is as though I was molding my comments so that any small child could understand it.  But even this type of simplification has not sufficed, which leads to the next comment, that Snowshow is just being intentionally obtuse.

Surely Snowshow is not completely devoid of abstract thinking, but instead he seems to ONLY be selectively applying it...... and so maybe one of the ONLY services that Snowshow happens to be providing here is a springboard for several of us to continuously illustrate the various ways that he is a purposeful dumbfuck regarding various bitcoin basics - and the same is true when he might apply some abstract principles (or do we call it pure faith and belief) to the powers and workability to various fiat systems, while at the same time failing/refusing to appreciate that bitcoin is even less abstract and fantastical than the many belief and faith hoops that have to be achieved if believing in fiat systems... in that regard, bitcoin reveals itself as such a concrete kind of system in which ongoingly verifying of the ledger contributes towards the recognition (for those able to see it) that bitcoin is the most grounded of value systems (thus soundest of monies).. so in that sense less abstract than fiat systems.

Here we thought that some interesting idea about bitcoin was being laid out in the OP, but rather this thread has become a study in the mental gymnastics of a ... fill in the blank.

[darkv0rt3x]

I think my tiny contribution is will end today because among other reasons, everything has its time. And the time to end this bullshit has come!
Still I want to thank to whoever tried to (honestly) educate @SnowShow because in the process I also learned (or I shall say I cemetend) a few concepts that were kinda still floating on my mind regarding fiat money and fiat systems. Yes, I don't know a lot about the subject, so I took the opportunity to learn a bit more with this troll. I also tried to point out some aspects I think are very important from a theoretical standpoint such as the properties of sound/hard money and some other concepts that Austrian school likes to emphasize with all due reasoning that we all know this school has!

Thanks to all those people that shared insights, thoughts and knowledge and also to @Snowshow that was able to provide some good laughs, jokes and trolls.
darkV!

[tryingtolearn]

Snowshow is the only adult in the room and some respondents here put their immaturity on full display.

Buy more electronic digits and convince yourself there is no stopping the B-train. 
 
This old Spanish saying couldn't be more fitting:  "alábate pollo que mañana te guisan"

[tadamichi]

Snowshow is the only adult in the room and some respondents here put their immaturity on full display.

Buy more electronic digits and convince yourself there is no stopping the B-train. 
 
This old Spanish saying couldn't be more fitting:  "alábate pollo que mañana te guisan"

If you’re anti fiat and anti Bitcoin, you can only be a gold bug. This form of money already failed in practice and it’s foolish to try the same thing over and over again, and expecting something to change. My offer: let’s meet here again in exactly 10 years and then talk about Bitcoin again. I’ll set a reminder. After 24 years in operation then, any fud about a decentralised digital system not being durable enough, should be put into fairytale territory then.

[danadc]

For me it makes no sense to say that Satoshi deceived the world, nor can you put a blindfold on people so that they do not realize what they are missing, the few who believe that bitcoin is a farce I want to see the face when it reaches new all-time highs, it cannot be said that someone like Satoshi lied to the world when a system of governments and banks have blinded the world to seeing new opportunities, that is cheating, what Satoshi did was remove that blindfold.

[DooMAD]

Snowshow is the only adult in the room and some respondents here put their immaturity on full display.

Adults (or at least adults who don't suffer from some kind of multiple personality disorder) wouldn't register quite so many accounts in order to troll an internet message board.  Such behaviour is undeniably obnoxious.  Another popular expression is "You reap what you sow".  It's only natural for the forum users here to counter-troll when someone trolls us first.

[edgycorner]

hat’s why Bitcoin system is not a payment system. And now, a fan fact. Not only that Nakamoto’s tokens cannot provide utility to their holders. But the holders cannot even show the tokens. All that they can show are numbers in their wallets that represent the amount of the tokens.

I have been doing freelancing gigs lately. Guess how people pay me? Through crypto  

Paypal has a 10% fee in my country, international bank transfer takes weeks, other payment methods are equally incompetent or riddled with unnecessary fees.
But bitcoins and crypto? I get paid instantly, I can convert it to FIAT whenever need be or hodl or convert it into something more stable  

Your arguments are flawed and outdated.

[Snowshow]

...

Sure, paper stickers can be money because paper is a resource. Although the utility of such resource is small, in theory you can at least compare its degree of utility to the degrees of utility of other resources. But in the Nakamoto scheme, you cannot even show stickers or tokens, neither digital nor paper ones.. All you can show is a number in your wallet that represent the amount of digital tokens. Giving up the actual, valuable resources just because a system of an anonymous person will tell you that you hold a specific amount of tokens that you cannot even show, is the stupidest thing humans ever invented. Putting money in this stupidity because you hope you'll make some money is one thing. But trying to defend it, by writing endless rants about freedom, revolution, new money, etc. is the stupidity of a high order. I mean, just taking a small look on what some guys here are writing and you don't know whether to laugh or to cry.

I see what you mean here, I see what you are trying to figure out.

You think some "resource" needs to be transferred, but you want this "resource" to be made of some atoms.  Or, at least that's what I think you meant.

There are material resources: computers, their wiring, the electricity that make them run are made of atoms, electrons, and charges that flow through the wires. These material resources help computers, the internet, and bitcoin to function in a timely manner, but they aren't necessary for the internet or bitcoin to function.  What you are missing, and can't seem to understand is that the "resource" incorporated in a bitcoin transaction is actually "informational".  It is wrapped up in its cryptography, in the mathematics that allow it to work.

There is value in understanding the following knowledge:  1+1=2.   If you can't understand why that type of knowledge is valuable, then you will never understand why exchanging bitcoins for products across the globe can have value.

The level of stupidity in your statements is stunning. You're saying that no resources need to be transferred in a transaction. WTF?! How's that a transaction then? You gave your car to someone and some anonymous people just write down that you have 5 tokens, that you cannot even show. How's that a transaction? How do you know what degree of utility can you get in return for the degree of utility that a car can provide? I mean,  you know this whole thing  is stupid as fuck. But instead of admitting this, you just say: 'well, I guess nothing needs to be transferred in a transaction. No resource. Nothing. It's enough to just write some number into a database.' You people are literally out of your minds. I understand those that want to get some money out of this Ponzi scheme. But trying to defend this as some revolutionary invention is crazy.

I now realize that I have found the Achilles heel in the mentality of this "Snowshow".

He doesn't think that mathematics is a valuable resource, therefore he doesn't understand that information is a resource.  Because they can't touch it, hold it in a bag, throw it at a wall.  You can't punch an idea.  And yet, it is one of the most powerful resources humankind has.

You know some of the earliest computers were used to calculate trajectories for artillery.  These "calculated trajectories" were used to successfully hit the enemy with shells of ammo, or explosives.  One cannot hold a "trajectory" in your hand, it's just numbers.  

But guess what, I bet these trajectories held great value to the commanders in the battlefield.  They were probably worth their weight in gold.  Or, now they may be worth there weight in bitcoins.

I see you're still not done with the stupidity. What information are you fantasizing about? Of course that information is a resource. If you have some nasty discovery about the president Biden or some publicly important person this can be very valuable information. But by entering in Nakamoto's scheme you bought no information. The system simply attributed a number to your address. A number that supposedly represent the amount of tokens or coins. But you're not even able to show those coins. Because they don't exist. They're simply a bait to lure people in a Ponzi scheme. All Ponzi schemes, from the one invented by Charles Ponzi to the one invented by Bernie Madoff, had some kind of bait to lure people in. Generally, the bait was business that generates big returns. In reality however no business existed. Which is why the returns to existing investors could only be generated from the resources contributed by new investors. What Satoshi Nakamoto did, is simply change the bait. Instead of business that generates big returns, Nakamoto used the bait of digital money that generates fast and secure transactions. However, neither money nor transactions exist in reality. And all those that took the bait and invested in Nakamoto's Ponzi scheme, are able to return their investments only from resources contributed by new investors. Admit finally that you're participating in a Ponzi scheme and want to make some money out of it. But please, stop with the stupidity and fantasies about some information or coins or magical money. They don't exist. You look like a religious nutcase trying to convincing me they do.

[hZti]

I see you're still not done with the stupidity.

At first I thought now you start talking to yourself but then I realized again you are being serious.  

And all those that took the bait and invested in Nakamoto's Ponzi scheme, are (...)

... now extremely rich!

That is the reality. If you like it or not it does not matter.
Bitcoin was always highly controversial and thats how it will stay. Still people that liked it always profited form it and the people that did not like it were left behind.

[tadamichi]

What information are you fantasizing about? Of course that information is a resource. If you have some nasty discovery about the president Biden or some publicly important person this can be very valuable information.

Lmao it’s not some gossip that he’s talking about. Everything in life comes down to information, that is the base layer for everything. It is the most essential resource of any of them, and being able to study and use information is a big factor of what made humanity the dominant species on earth.

Your DNA carries genetic information. It decides how your organism is built and maintained. If you’re sick or healthy. That allows organism to have evolution. This information can be used or changed. For example in forensics to catch criminals, to do paternity tests etc. Dna is even used in computer science as a storage device, that’s what’s being researched currently.

DNA digital data storage is the process of encoding and decoding binary data to and from synthesized strands of DNA.[1][2]

While DNA as a storage medium has enormous potential because of its high storage density, its practical use is currently severely limited because of its high cost and very slow read and write times.[3]

In June 2019, scientists reported that all 16 GB of text from Wikipedia's English-language version have been encoded into synthetic DNA.[4] In 2021, scientists reported that a custom DNA data writer had been developed that was capable of writing data into DNA at 18 Mbps.[5]

Davos Bitcoin Challenge
On January 21, 2015, Nick Goldman from the European Bioinformatics Institute (EBI), one of the original authors of the 2013 Nature paper,[19] announced the Davos Bitcoin Challenge at the World Economic Forum annual meeting in Davos.[34][35] During his presentation, DNA tubes were handed out to the audience, with the message that each tube contained the private key of exactly one bitcoin, all coded in DNA. The first one to sequence and decode the DNA could claim the bitcoin and win the challenge. The challenge was set for three years and would close if nobody claimed the prize before January 21, 2018.[35]

Almost three years later on January 19, 2018, the EBI announced that a Belgian PhD student, Sander Wuyts, of the University of Antwerp and Vrije Universiteit Brussel, was the first one to complete the challenge.[36][37] Next to the instructions on how to claim the bitcoin (stored as a plain text and PDF file), the logo of the EBI, the logo of the company that printed the DNA (CustomArray), and a sketch of James Joyce were retrieved from the DNA.[38].

Do you understand that computer science isn’t detached from reality slowly?

The whole world around us is made by information. It can be expressed by chemistry, math and physics. Each object is made up in some unique way, that decide it’s properties. How would you express the speed of light without math? Many discoveries would have never been possible if people didn’t express themselves in math. And if you don’t understand why the speed of light is important for society, you won’t be able to understand many other concepts too(in your case). Because your way of thinking has already many deficits.

Even language is basically the transmission of information. There are no universal laws behind it, it’s unprecise just made up by the imagination of humans and yet it works. We have a huge advantage over other living beings, because our language is precise enough to allow for complex communication. We’re thousands of kilometres away from each other and yet can still communicate. Something other living beings can’t. We can even still read writings of long dead people, their information is the only thing that survives. This is made possible by language. Math would be a kind of precise universal language and this is the basis computers use.

Societies are formed on the basis of information. We create laws, ideas, etc. Money is used as a tool to distribute resources in these societies. Once you realise that there are certain properties that determine what makes good and bad money, it’s not the way of transmission of these resources that decide it.

We used metal before, then paper, now digital systems. The properties of physical objects like paper or metal are not fitting enough to form a resistant kind of money, the information they’re transmitting can be forged with, and in golds case the physical properties limit how well you can transmit that information(lack of divisibility etc), which makes it a worse form of money.

But we can form information precisely trough computer science and programming languages. This allows for the creation of a money that perfectly fills out the desirable properties and is stored in a way that is safe from manipulation. The constraints of using something like paper and metal, that are made up by the physical world, are overcome like this. They weren’t made to be money in the first place, we repurposed these things to be used as money. Trough math we can precisely dictate the properties of a digital kind of money, that can perfectly fill out the properties we need. The result is Bitcoin. We didn’t repurpose something physical in an inefficient way, but created the best form of money that is currently possible from scratch. This is a tailor made solution. Society will be able to work better with unforged and higher quality information, than the constantly manipulated low quality mess we used before.

But by entering in Nakamoto's scheme you bought no information. The system simply attributed a number to your address. A number that supposedly represent the amount of tokens or coins. But you're not even able to show those coins. Because they don't exist. They're simply a bait to lure people in a Ponzi scheme. All Ponzi schemes, from the one invented by Charles Ponzi to the one invented by Bernie Madoff, had some kind of bait to lure people in. Generally, the bait was business that generates big returns. In reality however no business existed. Which is why the returns to existing investors could only be generated from the resources contributed by new investors. What Satoshi Nakamoto did, is simply change the bait. Instead of business that generates big returns, Nakamoto used the bait of digital money that generates fast and secure transactions. However, neither money nor transactions exist in reality. And all those that took the bait and invested in Nakamoto's Ponzi scheme, are able to return their investments only from resources contributed by new investors. Admit finally that you're participating in a Ponzi scheme and want to make some money out of it. But please, stop with the stupidity and fantasies about some information or coins or magical money. They don't exist. You look like a religious nutcase trying to convincing me they do.

Go educate yourself how Bitcoin operates and manages money. Or you can repeat the same stupidity. I don't even read your responses anymore.