How Satoshi Nakamoto Fooled the World

[aylabadia05]

When banking system was created, the bills were attributed some value, something we today call as fiat currency. Its nothing but a piece of paper backed by reserve bank. Still it changed the way we do transactions( Previously it was barter). Then came the online banking, but it lacked the flexibility of true digital currency. That is where satoshi saw opportunity and gave us a system of online currencies, today we call as crypto, which can help us make blockchain based transaction. Which outweighs fiat or online banking.

You are right and I agree with you.
2017 I am familiar with this forum and continue to explore the "difference" between the process of using fiat money and digital currencies otherwise known as crypto. Satoshi's intelligence in giving birth to crypto is extraordinary, especially Bitcoin. He came not to fool the world, but Satoshi conveyed to the world that Bitcoin is the best solution when it comes to future finances. So it is appropriate that the sentence CryptocurrencyBitcoin is freedom, Banking is slavery that Lauda quoted from Arif Naseem.

You seem to recognize that there is a difference between bitcoin and crypto.. but you are still juxtaposing those terms and even suggesting that bitcoin is just a part of crypto.. which is a kind of shitcoiner (and a confused persons) way of talking about the whole matter including actually knowing what is bitcoin and not being afraid to focus on talking about bitcoin as a force in itself.  

Don't get me wrong. Sometimes I also use the term crypto and/or talk about various cryptocurrencies (aka shitcoins), and even describe some other projects and dynamics in broader "crypto" space, such as NFTs, ICOs, Defi and perhaps some other projects that may or may not have some connection with bitcoin.

Yes.. it is a kind of pet peeve of mine, but there seems to be way too much lack of clarity in the way the terms crypto and cryptocurrency is being discussed, and it seems to me that if we are mostly talking about bitcoin, then there is likely no need to even mention crypto or cryptocurrencies, but sometimes if we are talking about various dynamics beyond bitcoin then there might be some kind of need to bring it up.. so accordingly, if we are talking about what satoshi did, to me, it seem way more appropriate and adequate to proclaim that satoshi was building bitcoin, not "crypto".. yeah.. satoshi did mention some other crypto currencies in his various forum interactions, but it seems quite in accurate to be suggesting that satoshi brought "crypto" to the world - even if satoshi himself recognized that the dynamic of just creating bitcoin was quite likely to spark a variety of imitation projects, forks and even snake oil salesmen and snake oil products.

So I suppose part of my own ongoing desires to combat the loose framings of bitcoin as it relates to various other aspects of the space has to do with how various shitcoins, scams and even shady folks are using that kind of vague language to confuse people in regards to what is bitcoin and what are bitcoin projects as compared to some of their projects that may or may not be as closely related to bitcoin as they are making them out to be.

Not. Crypto is too common. Bitcoin is special to me. I'm only interested in Bitcoin and not very interested in crypto for reasons like you mean.
Bitcoin is very different such as ICOs, NFTs and some others that have nothing to do with Bitcoin and I think a more detailed explanation between Bitcoin and crypto needs to be conveyed so as not to be mistaken because the main purpose of Bitcoin is very good to be used as an asset of the future. Therefore, I am not worried about its price drop because I do not judge Bitcoin in terms of price but from its basic purpose.

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[darkv0rt3x]

No, there is no value in debt.There is only keynsian imagination in debt. There is only your imagination in debt and in your shiat coin.
And what banks balance seets tells you means nothing because they can put there whatever they want, true or false, that you'll kust swallow it like the lamb you are.

On the other end, Bitcoin has value basaed on technology, criptography, math, computer science and through all properties of a hard/sound money. But you, as a lam you are, can only soak in the crap you were given and you can't even judge that same crap and add 2 to 2 and see that something is not adding up.

Don't join the debating club. 

- Regarding value in debt:  I hold a mortgage on someone's property.  They pay me interest on the loan as well as pay back principal.  Their debt is my asset.

- There is no hard or sound money aspect to bitcoin.  It is digits on a computer not backed by anything except pure faith and a hatred for the status quo financial system. 

If anyone is guilty of soaking up crap - it is people who are belligerent to the facts.  That is basis for a good con. 

What? Don't join the debate? Who are you to give orders to anyone? lol As already been said, don't start creating dupe accounts just to give some credibility to your shitshow!

FYI:
Hard money definition
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/h/hardmoney.asp

Or Sound Money:
https://www.soundmoneydefense.org/sound-money-explained

On top of what is said there, Bitcoin holds a few other properties that I think I have already mentioned but not sure if it was here, but I mention them again

Durability
Portability
Divisibility
Scarcity

There are a few others that might not have a specific name such as the property of keeping it's value over time but not in the sense of numerical value. In the sense of the value we give it today by its properties, by what tit represents, by what it enables in terms of privacy, etc.

So, something that you say doesn't exist in Bitcoin, IT ACTAULLY EXISTS, and even more than that!

[Snowshow]

@shitshow, excuse me @snowshow, you are the one who started this troll. Your ignorante stand is the ridiculous one here. I tell you once more that your shiat coin represents shit. Debt is no resource as it has no value. You only say that because that's what you have been told by keynsian dumb fucks or read somewhere in the internet and you just swallowed it like a lamb. You have no own critical reasoning. You just soak up the first crap you're given. So, don't keep repeating the same old shit keysian dum asses told you. Because that's what you've been doing for the last 30 or 40 pages. Is that your shiat coin represents a quantity of debt. Debt created by banks... As these 2 statements could ever give any value/resource to debt. No, there is no value in debt.There is only keynsian imagination in debt. There is only your imagination in debt and in your shiat coin.
And what banks balance seets tells you means nothing because they can put there whatever they want, true or false, that you'll kust swallow it like the lamb you are.

On the other end, Bitcoin has value basaed on technology, criptography, math, computer science and through all properties of a hard/sound money. But you, as a lam you are, can only soak in the crap you were given and you can't even judge that same crap and add 2 to 2 and see that something is not adding up.

And more, you are refuting nothing. Your claims are just more of keynesian crap. Those lords you menitoned all made their fortunes with you shiat coin while others lost evertything to those fucks. Give an example, just one, since 2009 of the same happening in the Bitcoin network, due to the system itself. And don't bring mtgox or any other custodial services or any other shit like that, because that has nothing to do with the Bitcoin network it self. JUST SAYING!

Well you can keep repeating that debt has no value but those that own it by holding fiat currencies, literally every minute, all around the world, receive labour, products and services from the borrowers, who in that way pay their debt. Debt is liability of one and asset of another. Fiat currencies are simply records of asset ownership.

On the other hand, bitcoins, plus satoshis, are just tokens of participation in a fraudulent investment scheme. That person Nakamoto set up a system to produce 2.1 quadrillion of these tokens, and those who want to invest in his fraud buy the tokens or invest electricity in them. After that they own nothing and hold the evidence of fraud participation. Hence, Nakamoto invented a modern way of recording the participants who joined an investment fraud.
  

[slackovic]

Well you can keep repeating that debt has no value but those that own it by holding fiat currencies, literally every minute, all around the world, receive labour, products and services from the borrowers, who in that way pay their debt. Debt is liability of one and asset of another. Fiat currencies are simply records of asset ownership.

On the other hand, bitcoins, plus satoshis, are just tokens of participation in a fraudulent investment scheme. That person Nakamoto set up a system to produce 2.1 quadrillion of these tokens, and those who want to invest in his fraud buy the tokens or invest electricity in them. After that they own nothing and hold the evidence of fraud participation. Hence, Nakamoto invented a modern way of recording the participants who joined an investment fraud.
  

Oh my God! You are still here???

I don't know where you get your data about Bitcoin, but if I'm not mistaken, there will be maximum 21 million Bitcoin. Not 2.1 quadrillion. Do you even check things before you post nonsense?

If Bitcoin is fraud, how come no one is being arrested for using it?

[tadamichi]

Fiat currencies are simply records of asset ownership.

You give up ownership of an asset in return for fiat/ or give up fiat in return for assets. Fiat doesnt record what assets you own, you exchange it for assets. You can have a lot of assets and zero fiat, because fiat doesnt even record what assets you own in the first place.

This is literally what makes people rich in this system, minimising fiat holdings, and maximising assets being held. This is the only open secret regular people dont get yet, because they wanna maximise their holdings in fiat, even tho it makes them poorer over time and they are hesitant to acquire any assets/ or knowledge about how things work. Fiat currencies just record how much fiat you own, its not different from Bitcoin in this. After this logic any money is a fraudulent investment scheme.

[Doan9269]

Don't join the debating club. 

Snowshow.  Do you consider it a good idea to create another account and then argue your same bullshit points, in order to attempt to make it appear that there are other people in the world who believe the same nonsense that you are getting paid to repeat.. parrot your dumb points.  You might get into trouble for that no?  In the way that you are doing it, it is a kind of deception, right?

The funniest about his trash is that he might know the real truth but because of what he earned being paid in peanut makes him to deny the truth and yet recruiting another alt in likes manner, i don't know what the world is turning into, here's the truth and here is the lies with money, people will still go for the wrong choice all because of what will pass through their glutonic unsatisfactory throat, i also wonder how shameless Snowshow could be without noticing he's been odd over this while, what a shamelessness.

[Snowshow]

Well you can keep repeating that debt has no value but those that own it by holding fiat currencies, literally every minute, all around the world, receive labour, products and services from the borrowers, who in that way pay their debt. Debt is liability of one and asset of another. Fiat currencies are simply records of asset ownership.

On the other hand, bitcoins, plus satoshis, are just tokens of participation in a fraudulent investment scheme. That person Nakamoto set up a system to produce 2.1 quadrillion of these tokens, and those who want to invest in his fraud buy the tokens or invest electricity in them. After that they own nothing and hold the evidence of fraud participation. Hence, Nakamoto invented a modern way of recording the participants who joined an investment fraud.
  

Oh my God! You are still here???

I don't know where you get your data about Bitcoin, but if I'm not mistaken, there will be maximum 21 million Bitcoin. Not 2.1 quadrillion. Do you even check things before you post nonsense?

If Bitcoin is fraud, how come no one is being arrested for using it?

Read the OP. I rewrited it. You'll see that semantic is not important.
Bitcoins are tokens of ponzi participation. Satoshis are tokens of ponzi participation as well. There are 21 quadrillion of those tokens.

[BlackHatCoiner]

You've deliberately missed this one:

False. Once property is stolen/destroyed/lost, fiat numbers suddenly represent non-existent resources. That's why the rich invest on the property, and not on the liability of that property.

[Ucy]

Satoshi Nakamoto is the identity used by the unknown person, people or organization that authored the so called Bitcoin Whitepaper. In that paper, they claimed to have invented an electronic money, and a system based on cryptographic proof, that uses that money. Basically, they claimed to have invented a superior payment system with its own money. However, that was not true. They invented neither money nor payment system. Instead, they invented an advanced way of recording participants in a Ponzi scheme. Namely, all Ponzi schemes, from the one invented by Charles Ponzi to the one invented by Bernie Madoff, recorded the participants in some way. People invested funds in the schemes, and the organizers provided them with some evidences that they invested, that is, that they became the participants in their schemes. Satosy Nakamoto simply invented an online way of doing this, where the investors receive digital tokens of participation. The record about the amount of tokens is attributed to the online addresses of the participants and stored in a distributed database called blockchain. The tokens themselves are called bitcoins. Nakamoto set the maximum number of bitcoins to 21 million. However, each bitcoin can be divided into 100 million units. The units are called satoshis. Of course, that’s just semantics, and in reality, Nakamoto’s invention has 2.1 quadrillion tokens. Now the obvious question that comes to mind is, why are these tokens actually tokens of ponzi participation? Well, for a simple reason. Anyone who holds them, owns nothing. Participants in all Ponzi schemes hold some kind of record of participation, but they own no resource that they could utilize. Which is why thay must wait for new investors to enter the Ponzi schemes and transfer the ownership of resources to them. The same is true in this case. By holding bitcoins or satoshis, people hold record of participation in Nakamoto’s scheme. However they own no resources they could utilize. For that reson, the holders are forced to wait for new investors to join in, and in that way transfer the ownership of resources to them. Hence, bitcoins and satoshis are simply the tokens of ponzi participation.

The thing that we have just described, obviously has absolutely nothing to do with money or payment systems. That’s because money is a resource, while payment systems are a set of methods, procedures, rules and technology for transferring resources. Generally, resources are anything that provides utility to people. For example, products, labor, or services, provide utility by satisfying human needs. Land provides utility because it supports all human activities. Shares in the companies provide utility because they grant access to profits or equity of the companies. Debt provides utility at payment because what is payable by one is receivable by another. And so on. Then, by comparing the degrees of utility of the two resources, the parties know how much of one resource can they give in the exchange for another, or vice versa. The agreement about the exchange is called a transaction. The realization of a transaction is called a payment. By holding bitcoins or satoshis, people have no ownership of resources. They have nothing to utilize. They have nothing to compare the degree of utility. All they have are the records about the amount of Nakamoto’s tokens. So, what’s going on in Nakamoto’s invention are neither transactions nor payments. But, an advanced way of recording participants in a Ponzi scheme.

Despite being a Ponzi scheme, many people fell for Nakamoto’s invention and believe it is a payment system. This misconception is mainly because the Bitcoin system uses numbers to record the amount of ponzi tokens. Which is exactly what actual payment system use to record the amount of resources they are transferring. For example. In fiat currency-based payment systems, these currencies are nothing but records in the form of numbers written on banknotes or bank accounts. The logic then goes: “if systems that use numbers are payment systems, then the Bitcoin system is s payment system as well.” But, of course, that logic is flawed. Fiat currency-based systems use numbers to represent the amount of resource in the form of debt. And it is that debt what provides utility to fiat currency holders. Namely, when banks grant loans to borrowers, and in that way create debt, they use fiat currencies to represent the amount of that debt. Once debt is created, market participants invest in it by trading their resources with borrowers for fiat currencies. In that way the participants become fiat currency holders and debt owners. The nature of debt is that it needs to be paid. That is, the borrowers must return resources back to fiat currency holders. That’s why the banks use the mortgages and other liens to force them to repay their loans. And in order to repay their loans, the borrowers must work for fiat currency holders or sell them products and services. In that way, the borrowers return the resources back to the people that invested in debt. Basically, they pay debt to these people. Then, the borrowers take the received fiat currency units to the banks as evidence that debt to investors in debt has been paid. The banks then liquidate the part of their loans. The process repeats until the loans are paid off. So that how debt provides utility to fiat currency holders. And that’s why it is called a resource. Or an asset. Fiat currencies are simply records of assets ownership. On the other hand, bitcoins and satoshis are records of ponzi participation. Or in short, ponzi tokens. That’s why those who hold them must wait for new investors to enter the scheme and trade their ownership of resources for these ponzi tokens.

Satoshi Nakamoto fooled the world through language manipulation in the Bitcoin Whitepaper. For example, by referring to their tokens as “money”, “coins” or “electronic cash”. Or by referring to their scheme as a “payment system”. Money and coins are simply types of resources (debt or metal). Electronic cash is representation of an already existing money (PayPal, Skrill, Neteller). While payment systems are systems that transfer resources. Nakamoto’s language manipulation, together with the misconception that system that use numbers are payment systems, created the deception so big that it caused two mind-boggling things to happen. First, it pumped up the price of a single ponzi token from zero, to a high of $70,000, with the current price around $20,000. Second, it made the most bizarre industry ever to pop up – the crypto industry. This industry makes huge profits from the most nonsensical human activity ever – buying and selling ponzi tokens.

To conclude. Satoshi Nakamoto invented neither money nor payment system. They simply invented an advanced way of recording the participants in a Ponzi scheme. The problem in Nakamoto scheme is the same as in all Ponzi schemes. The earlier participants can return their investment of resources only from resources brought by more recent participants. Consequently, if people stop participating (here buying ponzi tokens), then there are no resources anymore. And those that are left holding the tokens, are literally left with nothing.

Source: https://.com/

You clearly do not understand what Bitcoin or money is
I wonder if you will call a fiat currency like dollar or ruble ponzi if it could benefit those who own substantial amount of the currency when it appreciate in value. If you have $10,000 in your savings account to buy a particular brand of car from another country that is worth $10,000 in its national currency , then the dollar appreciate in value by %10 while the value of the car remain thesame in its national currency, you will end up with extra $1000 after buying the car from another country due to the appreciation of dollar... That doesn't make dollar a Ponzi scheme... It only appreciated in value due demand and supply, and those who have dollar benefit from this especially when trading with countries with devalued currencies.  Same as using gold as currency(which was the case in olden days) ... Back then if there was alot of demand for gold it would appreciate in value and those with gold will have extra gold to buy more stuff. That doesn't make gold a Ponzi. Besides, ponzi scheme is said to be unsustainable but Bitcoin has remained sustainable to this day and it's model after gold in this manner.

By the way, Bitcoin is more than a currency, it is simply a Global Network/System for exchanging digital values in a very secure, unique & revolutionary way... That values include currency, messages, information, etc. It's a work in progress that can enable the exchange of any kind of digital values you can think. If will still be very useful if you eliminate the currency part of it. So it's not a Ponzi like you you imagine d

[tadamichi]

i don't know what the world is turning into, here's the truth and here is the lies with money, people will still go for the wrong choice all because of what will pass through their glutonic unsatisfactory throat

Its psychology of the masses sadly, defying all logic or facts. When they lack social bonds, meaning in life, are anxious and frustrated they just need to get served one narrative that creates a common enemy and they will go nuts and will form a bond of sheeps. Then they do everything to make this bond survive and to keep the feeling meaning alive, no matter if its completely unethical or plain wrong. They can hide everything from the masses with this strategy, no matter if its the causation of inflation, that fiat is a predatory system or that Bitcoin isnt the cause of energy problems, they can just blame Bitcoin anyways and people will do as told. The only thing we can do against this is go against these false narratives again and again, to not let these sheep get out of hand in their ecstasy of craziness. Ignoring doesnt work sadly, as it only strenghtens their irrationality if they stay in an echo chamber.

[Snowshow]

Satoshi Nakamoto is the identity used by the unknown person, people or organization that authored the so called Bitcoin Whitepaper. In that paper, they claimed to have invented an electronic money, and a system based on cryptographic proof, that uses that money. Basically, they claimed to have invented a superior payment system with its own money. However, that was not true. They invented neither money nor payment system. Instead, they invented an advanced way of recording participants in a Ponzi scheme. Namely, all Ponzi schemes, from the one invented by Charles Ponzi to the one invented by Bernie Madoff, recorded the participants in some way. People invested funds in the schemes, and the organizers provided them with some evidences that they invested, that is, that they became the participants in their schemes. Satosy Nakamoto simply invented an online way of doing this, where the investors receive digital tokens of participation. The record about the amount of tokens is attributed to the online addresses of the participants and stored in a distributed database called blockchain. The tokens themselves are called bitcoins. Nakamoto set the maximum number of bitcoins to 21 million. However, each bitcoin can be divided into 100 million units. The units are called satoshis. Of course, that’s just semantics, and in reality, Nakamoto’s invention has 2.1 quadrillion tokens. Now the obvious question that comes to mind is, why are these tokens actually tokens of ponzi participation? Well, for a simple reason. Anyone who holds them, owns nothing. Participants in all Ponzi schemes hold some kind of record of participation, but they own no resource that they could utilize. Which is why thay must wait for new investors to enter the Ponzi schemes and transfer the ownership of resources to them. The same is true in this case. By holding bitcoins or satoshis, people hold record of participation in Nakamoto’s scheme. However they own no resources they could utilize. For that reson, the holders are forced to wait for new investors to join in, and in that way transfer the ownership of resources to them. Hence, bitcoins and satoshis are simply the tokens of ponzi participation.

The thing that we have just described, obviously has absolutely nothing to do with money or payment systems. That’s because money is a resource, while payment systems are a set of methods, procedures, rules and technology for transferring resources. Generally, resources are anything that provides utility to people. For example, products, labor, or services, provide utility by satisfying human needs. Land provides utility because it supports all human activities. Shares in the companies provide utility because they grant access to profits or equity of the companies. Debt provides utility at payment because what is payable by one is receivable by another. And so on. Then, by comparing the degrees of utility of the two resources, the parties know how much of one resource can they give in the exchange for another, or vice versa. The agreement about the exchange is called a transaction. The realization of a transaction is called a payment. By holding bitcoins or satoshis, people have no ownership of resources. They have nothing to utilize. They have nothing to compare the degree of utility. All they have are the records about the amount of Nakamoto’s tokens. So, what’s going on in Nakamoto’s invention are neither transactions nor payments. But, an advanced way of recording participants in a Ponzi scheme.

Despite being a Ponzi scheme, many people fell for Nakamoto’s invention and believe it is a payment system. This misconception is mainly because the Bitcoin system uses numbers to record the amount of ponzi tokens. Which is exactly what actual payment system use to record the amount of resources they are transferring. For example. In fiat currency-based payment systems, these currencies are nothing but records in the form of numbers written on banknotes or bank accounts. The logic then goes: “if systems that use numbers are payment systems, then the Bitcoin system is s payment system as well.” But, of course, that logic is flawed. Fiat currency-based systems use numbers to represent the amount of resource in the form of debt. And it is that debt what provides utility to fiat currency holders. Namely, when banks grant loans to borrowers, and in that way create debt, they use fiat currencies to represent the amount of that debt. Once debt is created, market participants invest in it by trading their resources with borrowers for fiat currencies. In that way the participants become fiat currency holders and debt owners. The nature of debt is that it needs to be paid. That is, the borrowers must return resources back to fiat currency holders. That’s why the banks use the mortgages and other liens to force them to repay their loans. And in order to repay their loans, the borrowers must work for fiat currency holders or sell them products and services. In that way, the borrowers return the resources back to the people that invested in debt. Basically, they pay debt to these people. Then, the borrowers take the received fiat currency units to the banks as evidence that debt to investors in debt has been paid. The banks then liquidate the part of their loans. The process repeats until the loans are paid off. So that how debt provides utility to fiat currency holders. And that’s why it is called a resource. Or an asset. Fiat currencies are simply records of assets ownership. On the other hand, bitcoins and satoshis are records of ponzi participation. Or in short, ponzi tokens. That’s why those who hold them must wait for new investors to enter the scheme and trade their ownership of resources for these ponzi tokens.

Satoshi Nakamoto fooled the world through language manipulation in the Bitcoin Whitepaper. For example, by referring to their tokens as “money”, “coins” or “electronic cash”. Or by referring to their scheme as a “payment system”. Money and coins are simply types of resources (debt or metal). Electronic cash is representation of an already existing money (PayPal, Skrill, Neteller). While payment systems are systems that transfer resources. Nakamoto’s language manipulation, together with the misconception that system that use numbers are payment systems, created the deception so big that it caused two mind-boggling things to happen. First, it pumped up the price of a single ponzi token from zero, to a high of $70,000, with the current price around $20,000. Second, it made the most bizarre industry ever to pop up – the crypto industry. This industry makes huge profits from the most nonsensical human activity ever – buying and selling ponzi tokens.

To conclude. Satoshi Nakamoto invented neither money nor payment system. They simply invented an advanced way of recording the participants in a Ponzi scheme. The problem in Nakamoto scheme is the same as in all Ponzi schemes. The earlier participants can return their investment of resources only from resources brought by more recent participants. Consequently, if people stop participating (here buying ponzi tokens), then there are no resources anymore. And those that are left holding the tokens, are literally left with nothing.

Source: https://.com/

You clearly do not understand what Bitcoin or money is
I wonder if you will call a fiat currency like dollar or ruble ponzi if it could benefit those who own substantial amount of the currency when it appreciate in value. If you have $10,000 in your savings account to buy a particular brand of car from another country that is worth $10,000 in its national currency , then the dollar appreciate in value by %10 while the value of the car remain thesame in its national currency, you will end up with extra $1000 after buying the car from another country due to the appreciation of dollar... That doesn't make dollar a Ponzi scheme... It only appreciated in value due demand and supply, and those who have dollar benefit from this especially when trading with countries with devalued currencies.  Same as using gold as currency(which was the case in olden days) ... Back then if there was alot of demand for gold it would appreciate in value and those with gold will have extra gold to buy more stuff. That doesn't make gold a Ponzi. Besides, ponzi scheme is said to be unsustainable but Bitcoin has remained sustainable to this day and it's model after gold in this manner.

By the way, Bitcoin is more than a currency, it is simply a Global Network/System for exchanging digital values in a very secure, unique & revolutionary way... That values include currency, messages, information, etc. It's a work in progress that can enable the exchange of any kind of digital values you can think. If will still be very useful if you eliminate the currency part of it. So it's not a Ponzi like you you imagine d

Well, majority of people, in this forum, you included, don't understand what bitcon is. In the OP I explained what it really is. I explained it so simple that even idiots can understand it. You all got free education. The things you said in your response is a pure propaganda for luring people into the Ponzi scheme you're participating in.

You've deliberately missed this one:

False. Once property is stolen/destroyed/lost, fiat numbers suddenly represent non-existent resources. That's why the rich invest on the property, and not on the liability of that property.

I don't understand what you're talking about.

An interesting read : The Strange Case of Nakamoto's Bitcoin
https://salbayat.org/the-strange-case-of-nakamotos-bitcoin/

[tadamichi]

You've deliberately missed this one:

False. Once property is stolen/destroyed/lost, fiat numbers suddenly represent non-existent resources. That's why the rich invest on the property, and not on the liability of that property.

I don't understand what you're talking about.

An interesting read : The Strange Case of Nakamoto's Bitcoin
https://salbayat.org/the-strange-case-of-nakamotos-bitcoin/

Apart from the article being pure garbage and unproven accusation after unproven accusation that could fit to anything you apply to it. One example being this:

The most important, and most novel mechanism in the Nakamoto scheme is the way in which Proof-of-work (PoW) is leveraged and combined with mining rewards. Originally, Hashcash’s PoW was proposed as a way to discourage e-mail spam or denial of service attacks by forcing senders to expend CPU time, and hence electricity. Electricity costs money, and while the cost is small, it will scale with the number of emails sent, or connection attempts made. This method of using PoW explicitly ties it to some type of utility being provided. In contrast to the ethical ethos of hyper-financialization found in crypto, this method was preferred to email micropayments as it avoided the administrative and moral issues related to charging for e-mail.

Sending email is utility, but sending value/ payments is not? The amount of mind bending is insane.

The author also has competing conflict of interests that he didnt explicity state, because he runs a company that sells OLTP Solutions¹. Making money on selling garbage, centralized fiat infrastructure, ofc this can be counted as a whole propaganda piece against Bitcoin then. From the writing style of providing no sources, the article already starting out with some wikipedia and the whole evaluation model already being completely unapplicable to have practical results(it can be applied to anything), we can already guess that this author has no practical experiences in academic writing, not a necessity but doesnt help his case either. The only piece of cred found was some shitty 399$ course on Blockchains². Why does it matter? If i used this shitty article as a reference in academia i would either get kicked out or cringed at heavily. Its no necessity to have a degree or anything to put out good information, but this one is a good example of why we have to analyze sources first. And again i dont care about his degree of education, as an academia degree isnt what defines education in the first place, but the quality of this article is a walking red flag and is unusable for any professional work.

And here as a end note, to make it obvious why stating conflict of interests matters and i didnt mention this for no reason:

Using cryptographic hashing techniques to create an append only ledger is not in and of itself exploitative. However, creating a mechanism that enables economic transactions where value is exchanged for value can only serve as a vehicle for fraud. Bitcoin and all cryptocurrency systems as they exist in their present form are examples of harmful technology. They are dangerous and should not be allowed to exist. Value must be tied to the utility provided by a resource, and not to deception or an externality. By defining the unique characteristics of the Nakamoto scheme, we are better positioned to identify them so that we may act accordingly when they are encountered.

[1] https://ca.linkedin.com/in/salbayat
[2] https://101blockchains.com/academy/ https://www.credential.net/18134a57-15cd-4fea-b333-a8a93b453729#gs.g7utld

[darkv0rt3x]

@shitshow, excuse me @snowshow, you are the one who started this troll. Your ignorante stand is the ridiculous one here. I tell you once more that your shiat coin represents shit. Debt is no resource as it has no value. You only say that because that's what you have been told by keynsian dumb fucks or read somewhere in the internet and you just swallowed it like a lamb. You have no own critical reasoning. You just soak up the first crap you're given. So, don't keep repeating the same old shit keysian dum asses told you. Because that's what you've been doing for the last 30 or 40 pages. Is that your shiat coin represents a quantity of debt. Debt created by banks... As these 2 statements could ever give any value/resource to debt. No, there is no value in debt.There is only keynsian imagination in debt. There is only your imagination in debt and in your shiat coin.
And what banks balance seets tells you means nothing because they can put there whatever they want, true or false, that you'll kust swallow it like the lamb you are.

On the other end, Bitcoin has value basaed on technology, criptography, math, computer science and through all properties of a hard/sound money. But you, as a lam you are, can only soak in the crap you were given and you can't even judge that same crap and add 2 to 2 and see that something is not adding up.

And more, you are refuting nothing. Your claims are just more of keynesian crap. Those lords you menitoned all made their fortunes with you shiat coin while others lost evertything to those fucks. Give an example, just one, since 2009 of the same happening in the Bitcoin network, due to the system itself. And don't bring mtgox or any other custodial services or any other shit like that, because that has nothing to do with the Bitcoin network it self. JUST SAYING!

Well you can keep repeating that debt has no value but those that own it by holding fiat currencies, literally every minute, all around the world, receive labour, products and services from the borrowers, who in that way pay their debt. Debt is liability of one and asset of another. Fiat currencies are simply records of asset ownership.

On the other hand, bitcoins, plus satoshis, are just tokens of participation in a fraudulent investment scheme. That person Nakamoto set up a system to produce 2.1 quadrillion of these tokens, and those who want to invest in his fraud buy the tokens or invest electricity in them. After that they own nothing and hold the evidence of fraud participation. Hence, Nakamoto invented a modern way of recording the participants who joined an investment fraud.
 

You can also keep repeating yourself over and over. You only know 2 things. The only ones you keep repeating. You are ignorant deribelatly when you say there are 2.1 quadrillions of whatever you say and this is simply not teu. It's not true. NOT TRUE. Are you blind, deaf or just stupid?
Once more, Bitcoin is not fraudulent. The only thing fraudulent is debt and shiat coins. You know you gonna get nothing out of here, yet you still trying your dumb narrative as if anyone is going to fall for it.
Your claims would make sense in some shiat coin forum, but definitly not here. You seem a lam looking for grass in a dungeon of hungry lions. Poor thing.

Bitcoin is not only not fraudulent, but it has so much value that any shiat coin will ever be able to compete with. See how much purchasing power the shit dollar and shit Euro lost until today. See how much value Bitcoin lost until today! lol. You're ridiculous!

You've deliberately missed this one:

False. Once property is stolen/destroyed/lost, fiat numbers suddenly represent non-existent resources. That's why the rich invest on the property, and not on the liability of that property.

HHe doesn't understand what that means. He only knows about 2 things. Fiat currency represents the quantity of a resource and that that resource is debt! That's all he knows. Nothing else. He can't even tell the difference between millions abd quadrillions, let alone what is debt, resources or even value! This guy is ridiculous but I'll keep posting, because posts are giving me "numbers of a ponzi scheme that happens to be liked an appreciated by thousands or even millions of people around the world!

[darkv0rt3x]

Well, majority of people, in this forum, you included, don't understand what bitcon is. In the OP I explained what it really is. I explained it so simple that even idiots can understand it. You all got free education. The things you said in your response is a pure propaganda for luring people into the Ponzi scheme you're participating in.

We all know you don't understand what that means. It's clear you can only process 2 things. Nothing else.
You explained nothing about Bitcoin because you don't undersrand it. Stop saying you did this or you did that, because you did absolutely nothing. You can't even understand your own words, let alone other people's words.
You can't interpret what Bitcoin is, what it represents nor what makes it the best financial/economic tool mankind ever seen.
You're the only one that cannot understand what Bitcoin is. You're just lying to yourself.You're the one needing some basic education. Can you even compute 2 + 2? Let's test it please!
Do you know the meaning of propaganda? Or about demagogy? Do you need me to send you a link to an online dictionary or you can find it on your own? Do you know what a Ponzi scheme is? No, you don't know, you can't understand nor you want!

[JayJuanGee]

Well you can keep repeating that debt has no value but those that own it by holding fiat currencies, literally every minute, all around the world, receive labour, products and services from the borrowers, who in that way pay their debt. Debt is liability of one and asset of another. Fiat currencies are simply records of asset ownership.

On the other hand, bitcoins, plus satoshis, are just tokens of participation in a fraudulent investment scheme. That person Nakamoto set up a system to produce 2.1 quadrillion of these tokens, and those who want to invest in his fraud buy the tokens or invest electricity in them. After that they own nothing and hold the evidence of fraud participation. Hence, Nakamoto invented a modern way of recording the participants who joined an investment fraud.

Oh my God! You are still here???

I don't know where you get your data about Bitcoin, but if I'm not mistaken, there will be maximum 21 million Bitcoin. Not 2.1 quadrillion. Do you even check things before you post nonsense?

If Bitcoin is fraud, how come no one is being arrested for using it?

Read the OP. I rewrited it.

I must admit that this part is funny Snowshow. Even though I am a meanie who is laughing at you rather than with you.

You'll see that semantic is not important.
Bitcoins are tokens of ponzi participation. Satoshis are tokens of ponzi participation as well. There are 21 quadrillion of those tokens.

There are 2.1 quadrillion satoshis... you are correct, and satoshis are probably the most appropriate reference unit in bitcoin, even though we also know that in recent times, there have been transactions on the lightning network in sub-satoshis arena including millisatoshis, which are 1/1,000th of a satoshi?

Bitcoin holds a few other properties that I think I have already mentioned but not sure if it was here, but I mention them again

Durability
Portability
Divisibility
Scarcity

There are a few others that might not have a specific name such as the property of keeping it's value over time but not in the sense of numerical value. In the sense of the value we give it today by its properties, by what tit represents, by what it enables in terms of privacy, etc.

Personally, I like the idea of Verifiability. It is quite powerful to be able to verify that you have real bitcoin.  It is really difficult to do that with anything else..

gold?  holy shit what a nightmare.. especially on a system wide level, even though it might not be so difficult if you have a coin in your hand and you melt it down or whatever it is that you have to do to really have confidence.

fiat?

Equities?

Property?

Some of them you might be able to verify.. but then you add the other properties that you mentioned darkv0rt3x, such as portability... or divisibility, or scarcity.. then you run into challenges of each and every one of the potential competitors as being quite a large way inferior to bitcoin.. one of the reasons that bitcoin is about 1,000x better than its next closest competitor (gold), even though bitcoin has less than a 1/20 market cap of gold.. it might take bitcoin 50, 100 or even 200 years to get to 1,000x higher price than gold (referring to market cap), yet Gresham's law dynamics will continue to push these valuations versus price in a likely to be more true direction/assessment.

[darkv0rt3x]

Well you can keep repeating that debt has no value but those that own it by holding fiat currencies, literally every minute, all around the world, receive labour, products and services from the borrowers, who in that way pay their debt. Debt is liability of one and asset of another. Fiat currencies are simply records of asset ownership.

On the other hand, bitcoins, plus satoshis, are just tokens of participation in a fraudulent investment scheme. That person Nakamoto set up a system to produce 2.1 quadrillion of these tokens, and those who want to invest in his fraud buy the tokens or invest electricity in them. After that they own nothing and hold the evidence of fraud participation. Hence, Nakamoto invented a modern way of recording the participants who joined an investment fraud.

Oh my God! You are still here???

I don't know where you get your data about Bitcoin, but if I'm not mistaken, there will be maximum 21 million Bitcoin. Not 2.1 quadrillion. Do you even check things before you post nonsense?

If Bitcoin is fraud, how come no one is being arrested for using it?

Read the OP. I rewrited it.

I must admit that this part is funny Snowshow. Even though I am a meanie who is laughing at you rather than with you.

You'll see that semantic is not important.
Bitcoins are tokens of ponzi participation. Satoshis are tokens of ponzi participation as well. There are 21 quadrillion of those tokens.

There are 2.1 quadrillion satoshis... you are correct, and satoshis are probably the most appropriate reference unit in bitcoin, even though we also know that in recent times, there have been transactions on the lightning network in sub-satoshis arena including millisatoshis, which are 1/1,000th of a satoshi?

Bitcoin holds a few other properties that I think I have already mentioned but not sure if it was here, but I mention them again

Durability
Portability
Divisibility
Scarcity

There are a few others that might not have a specific name such as the property of keeping it's value over time but not in the sense of numerical value. In the sense of the value we give it today by its properties, by what tit represents, by what it enables in terms of privacy, etc.

Personally, I like the idea of Verifiability. It is quite powerful to be able to verify that you have real bitcoin.  It is really difficult to do that with anything else..

gold?  holy shit what a nightmare.. especially on a system wide level, even though it might not be so difficult if you have a coin in your hand and you melt it down or whatever it is that you have to do to really have confidence.

fiat?

Equities?

Property?

Some of them you might be able to verify.. but then you add the other properties that you mentioned darkv0rt3x, such as portability... or divisibility, or scarcity.. then you run into challenges of each and every one of the potential competitors as being quite a large way inferior to bitcoin.. one of the reasons that bitcoin is about 1,000x better than its next closest competitor (gold), even though bitcoin has less than a 1/20 market cap of gold.. it might take bitcoin 50, 100 or even 200 years to get to 1,000x higher price than gold (referring to market cap), yet Gresham's law dynamics will continue to push these valuations versus price in a likely to be more true direction/assessment.

You are absolutely right. I forgot that important one. Verifiability. But even gold was way better than the shitshow we actually have. Like, I think about it this way: before 1971, the world was under the gold standard and as Ron Paul said countless times, the price of US dollar was roughly stable. That means something. That even without them knowing about what was to come in 2009, gold was te best element to back up the fiat system, from the people's standpoint.
This guys says it all in a few words
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfWgmw435YE
He knows what he's talking about and he knows what will come. And see what is happening today... Just what he said. fiat losing value, people freedom going to near 0, bankrupcies, corruption, lies, etc.

Yes, Bitcoin will take time. That's why I keep saying and "explaining" over and over again about the importance of Time Preference. Probably one of the hardest concepts to soak in, accept and actually put in practice.

[minime0105]

Bills were always just papers with some numbers on them. In the past they represented the quantity of gold. Today they represent the quantity of debt.

As you said in the past they represent a specific amount of gold. This is not the case anymore. Today you tell that it does represent a quantity of debt. Can you cocaine weakend brain calculate for us how much debt a 50 USD bill contains or is this "money represents a quantity of debt" thing just something you are going to tell until people are to tired to question the bullshit you post here every day?

The reference given have not justify anything concerning the discussion. When you check some communicates do not post and discuss what is in line with our discussion, with  what I'm seeing right this conversation doesn't have any significant meaning and what some other people will learn from. I like the way you responded to him ir what he Said here is just a trash, so i believe that it suppose to reread and understand it's fault

[hZti]

The reference given have not justify anything concerning the discussion. When you check some communicates do not post and discuss what is in line with our discussion, with  what I'm seeing right this conversation doesn't have any significant meaning and what some other people will learn from. I like the way you responded to him ir what he Said here is just a trash, so i believe that it suppose to reread and understand it's fault

Im sorry but I think when you wrote the reply you must have been in a hurry, since I can't understand what you are trying to say  Anyway to me it is crazy that a tread like this can live for so long and especially that the OP is not tired already. It makes me even think that this a group of people that spamms the forum with anti bitcoin propaganda to fuel the bear trend,

[tadamichi]

Personally, I like the idea of Verifiability. It is quite powerful to be able to verify that you have real bitcoin.  It is really difficult to do that with anything else..

gold?  holy shit what a nightmare.. especially on a system wide level, even though it might not be so difficult if you have a coin in your hand and you melt it down or whatever it is that you have to do to really have confidence.

Let me add one drawback of verifying gold or even melting your gold. It will break the fungibility of it in the process, as gold coins/ bars we acquire need to be manufactured by some renowned mint. Otherwise you will loose some degree of saleability/ market value in the process. It’s hard for a regular person to even verify their gold or use it freely in some other way, without some major drawbacks.

Gresham's law dynamics will continue to push these valuations versus price in a likely to be more true direction/assessment.

Thiers law can also be a good indicator on how a potential abandonment process of fiat could look like in action. Bitcoin is ultimately money and will be used as a store of value and medium of exchange when the time is right, no intervention necessary. That is what is mindblowing to me, as it makes all the fiddling and policies economists try to introduce completely unnecessary, as the market can handle it itself when a pure form of money is introduced.

You are absolutely right. I forgot that important one. Verifiability. But even gold was way better than the shitshow we actually have. Like, I think about it this way: before 1971, the world was under the gold standard and as Ron Paul said countless times, the price of US dollar was roughly stable. That means something. That even without them knowing about what was to come in 2009, gold was te best element to back up the fiat system, from the people's standpoint.
This guys says it all in a few words
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfWgmw435YE
He knows what he's talking about and he knows what will come. And see what is happening today... Just what he said. fiat losing value, people freedom going to near 0, bankrupcies, corruption, lies, etc.

Yes, Bitcoin will take time. That's why I keep saying and "explaining" over and over again about the importance of Time Preference. Probably one of the hardest concepts to soak in, accept and actually put in practice.

The gold standard was a lot better than fiat for the average person, but also suffered from the trust based model and the lack of verifiability. And ultimately failed, because politicians could simply abandon it whenever they like, without a possibility of verification or stopping it. Ultimately the most sound money can only stay sound if it can overcome the wickedness of man, and there is no other approach than Bitcoin so far that comes closer to this. Everything before this failed for this simple reason, and will fail again for this very same reason.

Bitcoin is the only attempt so far that can possibly resist this path, so it is the only sound money possibility worth pursuing in this day and age. Bitcoin is the only money that possesses this quality at the moment, and will grow more and more in value if it stays this way. It’s still highly undervalued at the moment as the average joe doesn’t realise what huge difference this simple property would have on its life yet.

[Snowshow]

You've deliberately missed this one:

False. Once property is stolen/destroyed/lost, fiat numbers suddenly represent non-existent resources. That's why the rich invest on the property, and not on the liability of that property.

I don't understand what you're talking about.

An interesting read : The Strange Case of Nakamoto's Bitcoin
https://salbayat.org/the-strange-case-of-nakamotos-bitcoin/

Apart from the article being pure garbage and unproven accusation after unproven accusation that could fit to anything you apply to it. One example being this:

The most important, and most novel mechanism in the Nakamoto scheme is the way in which Proof-of-work (PoW) is leveraged and combined with mining rewards. Originally, Hashcash’s PoW was proposed as a way to discourage e-mail spam or denial of service attacks by forcing senders to expend CPU time, and hence electricity. Electricity costs money, and while the cost is small, it will scale with the number of emails sent, or connection attempts made. This method of using PoW explicitly ties it to some type of utility being provided. In contrast to the ethical ethos of hyper-financialization found in crypto, this method was preferred to email micropayments as it avoided the administrative and moral issues related to charging for e-mail.

Sending email is utility, but sending value/ payments is not? The amount of mind bending is insane.

The author also has competing conflict of interests that he didnt explicity state, because he runs a company that sells OLTP Solutions¹. Making money on selling garbage, centralized fiat infrastructure, ofc this can be counted as a whole propaganda piece against Bitcoin then. From the writing style of providing no sources, the article already starting out with some wikipedia and the whole evaluation model already being completely unapplicable to have practical results(it can be applied to anything), we can already guess that this author has no practical experiences in academic writing, not a necessity but doesnt help his case either. The only piece of cred found was some shitty 399$ course on Blockchains². Why does it matter? If i used this shitty article as a reference in academia i would either get kicked out or cringed at heavily. Its no necessity to have a degree or anything to put out good information, but this one is a good example of why we have to analyze sources first. And again i dont care about his degree of education, as an academia degree isnt what defines education in the first place, but the quality of this article is a walking red flag and is unusable for any professional work.

And here as a end note, to make it obvious why stating conflict of interests matters and i didnt mention this for no reason:

Using cryptographic hashing techniques to create an append only ledger is not in and of itself exploitative. However, creating a mechanism that enables economic transactions where value is exchanged for value can only serve as a vehicle for fraud. Bitcoin and all cryptocurrency systems as they exist in their present form are examples of harmful technology. They are dangerous and should not be allowed to exist. Value must be tied to the utility provided by a resource, and not to deception or an externality. By defining the unique characteristics of the Nakamoto scheme, we are better positioned to identify them so that we may act accordingly when they are encountered.

[1] https://ca.linkedin.com/in/salbayat
[2] https://101blockchains.com/academy/ https://www.credential.net/18134a57-15cd-4fea-b333-a8a93b453729#gs.g7utld

The author is right. Sending email provides utility because email has info about some aspect of reality that is of interest to the receiver. On the other hand, bitcoin that one receives provides no utility. It's just a token of investment in a Ponzi scheme. It's like if you would give me $100 and in return I would give you a paper sticker saying "Thanks". If you would give me $200 I would give you two such stickers. What utility can such stickers provide to you? None. Regardless if you see "value" in them. They are not like casino tokens that a casino is liable to redeem for cash. That's the difference between value and utility. Bitcoin is like a "Thanks" sticker in a digital form. It provides zero utility but people see value in it and that's why they purchase it.