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141  Bitcoin / Legal / Re: New to speculation, how do i report losses/gains for income tax? on: February 12, 2013, 12:47:08 AM
yeah but what if you end up funneling money from bitcoin gains back into your bank? wouldn't the IRS know about it? btw isn't capital gains tax cheaper than income?

In most cases, yes: capital gains tax is preferable. The capital gains tax rate on long-term gains for 2011 returns in the US was 15%; this is being increased to 20% in tax years after 2012 (however, it will be 0% for taxpayers in the 10-15% tax brackets). Short-term capital gains are generally taxed at the ordinary tax rate of the taxpayer.

The IRS doesn't monitor the bank accounts of taxpayers, so they wouldn't know whether or not the taxpayer is funneling money back and forth. However, the IRS will require documentation of trading activities in the event of an audit. In that situation, the IRS can request bank statements for income verification (I have two clients now who are in a similar situation).

Generally speaking and in theory, you can claim whatever the hell you want on your taxes: you just need to be able to back it up when the IRS starts poking at it. And the more "extreme" (or for a more accurate term, questionable) your claims are, the more likely the IRS is going to grab the pokin' stick. Tongue

And it's important to remember this too: when the IRS audits a return, they audit the full return. So if the IRS looks at one thing on a return and they feel it's a questionable claim, they could audit the return and find out about something else entirely.

For example: a delivery driver has $2,000 in cash tips that he doesn't claim on his return, but he does claim mortgage interest reported on a 1098 in the amount of $10,000. The IRS reviews the return and they think the mortgage interest claimed is more than it should be. They audit the full return and notice the $2,000 worth of deposits to discover that the taxpayer didn't claim those tips. The taxpayer will end up owing more taxes, and possibly a tax penalty.

With cash and coins (both US and Bit), it's up to the individual on whether or not to report them. The IRS may not notice them since it's hard to prove, but they may find out about them if they noticed something else.

The difficulty with Bitcoin is knowing what it should be classified as. As I said before, there are no definitive tax laws regarding them at this point. If someone wants to play it safe, I would recommend they report Bitcoins received as payment for goods or services converted to USD as other income on line 21, and profit/loss from Bitcoin trading as capital gains and losses.

so basically all I have to do to get the 0% capital gains is make less than 36k or become unemeployed? technically capital gains wouldn't take effect till you actually exchanged btc back into dollars right?

If you're single and in the US, correct, but remember that your income level for that computation includes capital gain income.

A capital gain would not be recognized until you completed the sale. So if you bought BTC on, say, February 11th, 2012 and haven't sold it yet, you haven't recognized a gain. Also keep in mind that you'll need to know your basis in the BTC (what you paid for it) when you compute capital gains and losses.
142  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Gathering Feedback on: February 12, 2013, 12:09:12 AM
How would the transaction be instant? I would guess it would be by selling set values of gift cards (like $25, $50, $100)?

What kind of fees would you charge?
143  Bitcoin / Press / Re: 2013-02-11 The New Underworld Currency... on: February 12, 2013, 12:04:48 AM
I'm wondering how they think they can regulate bitcoin online gambling  Huh

It's not about the elimination of all gambling services. it's about the capture of the individuals who run said gambling services. If you're not anonymous and you own a gambling service....well...you're screwed.

Exactly. They wouldn't stop Bitcoin, but they could go after the websites and their owners.
144  Other / Off-topic / Re: Pope Benedict XVI abdicts, bitcoin up? on: February 11, 2013, 11:21:10 PM
It's a shame to hear about his health problems... I've always enjoyed his writings. I hope he enjoys a comfortable retirement.
145  Economy / Trading Discussion / Re: Documenting bitcoin cash buys on: February 11, 2013, 11:18:26 PM
You're talking about buying BTC in person with cash, right?

For disclosure: I'm from the US, so I don't know how different UK tax law is compared to the US. If it's similar, then you're probably going to want to include the name of the seller, his address, the date, what you purchased (i.e; how many Bitcoins), and what you paid for them.

If you're going to hand-write the receipts, you could do something like this (with the info UK appropriate, of course):


Sold By: Thomas Thomason
Address: 123 Road Street Lane Boston, MA 02128
Date: 2/11/2013

Item: Bitcoin
Quantity: 5
Price: $122.50

Received By: James Jameson
Paid: Cash
146  Bitcoin / Legal / Re: New to speculation, how do i report losses/gains for income tax? on: February 11, 2013, 10:59:23 PM
yeah but what if you end up funneling money from bitcoin gains back into your bank? wouldn't the IRS know about it? btw isn't capital gains tax cheaper than income?

In most cases, yes: capital gains tax is preferable. The capital gains tax rate on long-term gains for 2011 returns in the US was 15%; this is being increased to 20% in tax years after 2012 (however, it will be 0% for taxpayers in the 10-15% tax brackets). Short-term capital gains are generally taxed at the ordinary tax rate of the taxpayer.

The IRS doesn't monitor the bank accounts of taxpayers, so they wouldn't know whether or not the taxpayer is funneling money back and forth. However, the IRS will require documentation of trading activities in the event of an audit. In that situation, the IRS can request bank statements for income verification (I have two clients now who are in a similar situation).

Generally speaking and in theory, you can claim whatever the hell you want on your taxes: you just need to be able to back it up when the IRS starts poking at it. And the more "extreme" (or for a more accurate term, questionable) your claims are, the more likely the IRS is going to grab the pokin' stick. Tongue

And it's important to remember this too: when the IRS audits a return, they audit the full return. So if the IRS looks at one thing on a return and they feel it's a questionable claim, they could audit the return and find out about something else entirely.

For example: a delivery driver has $2,000 in cash tips that he doesn't claim on his return, but he does claim mortgage interest reported on a 1098 in the amount of $10,000. The IRS reviews the return and they think the mortgage interest claimed is more than it should be. They audit the full return and notice the $2,000 worth of deposits to discover that the taxpayer didn't claim those tips. The taxpayer will end up owing more taxes, and possibly a tax penalty.

With cash and coins (both US and Bit), it's up to the individual on whether or not to report them. The IRS may not notice them since it's hard to prove, but they may find out about them if they noticed something else.

The difficulty with Bitcoin is knowing what it should be classified as. As I said before, there are no definitive tax laws regarding them at this point. If someone wants to play it safe, I would recommend they report Bitcoins received as payment for goods or services converted to USD as other income on line 21, and profit/loss from Bitcoin trading as capital gains and losses.
147  Economy / Service Discussion / Re: btcQuick.com Feedback Thread on: February 11, 2013, 06:13:17 AM
Decided to give btcQuick a try to see how it works. Membership cost $0.99 and required identity verification. I was able to take a picture of the name and address on my bank statement and upload it through the membership purchase process. I was verified very quickly (within ten minutes).

I bought BTC1 using my debit card. Fees were around $1.88, which was cheaper than the $3.95 I pay for ZipZap/BitInstant. This fee was based on a percentage, however, so BitInstant will probably be cheaper for larger orders. btcQuick had a fee of 7.5%, but your fees drop once you've bought enough BTC from the site: I think it goes down to 6%, which is still a bit higher than BitInstant. However, the slightly higher fees may be worth the convenience of paying with a debit or credit card and not having to track down a MoneyGram location.

It did take a little while to receive my BTC. I placed the order at 8:24PM EST and payment cleared my bank account at 8:39PM EST. I received the email with my BTC at 9:43PM EST. It seemed a bit long since the website says that the BTC is sent once payment clears, but it's still around the same time frame as BitInstant, minus the driving time for depositing the cash. I emailed customer support about the status of the order and they replied very quickly and in a friendly manner; I received the BTC shortly after they replied.

btcQuick sent a .zip file containing a .pdf that had both a public and a private key (and QR codes for both). I scanned the private key into my blockchain app and sent the BTC to my main client. I do like that the BTC is sent in its own wallet, which gives buyers a lot of options for using the funds.

All in all, I'm very satisfied with my order. I definitely plan on using btcQuick again! Wink

Awesome explaination. Btw, where does it say about the lower fee if you purchase 'x' amount of BTC?

https://www.btcquick.com/buy/index.php?route=product/product&path=59&product_id=50

At the end of the description they explain the fees and transaction limits for different levels of membership.

Ah, I see. Thanks, man. Sent you a tip.

Muchas gracias! Always glad to lend a hand Wink
148  Bitcoin / Legal / Re: New to speculation, how do i report losses/gains for income tax? on: February 11, 2013, 06:10:29 AM
I don't believe there are any cases that have set a precedent for Bitcoin as of yet, but there are two ways you could pursue reporting BTC income (assuming you're in the US):

1. You could report your profit as a line 21 entry on your 1040 (line 21 is a sort of catch all for other income). This would simply add the dollar value of the Bitcoin to your taxable income, raising your tax liability accordingly. This would also be the easiest way to report BTC earnings.

2. You could report BTC earnings on a schedule D as capital gains. You would report the dollar price you paid for the BTC, the dollar price you sold them for, and how long you held them. Long term capital gains tend to have preferential tax treatment, but reporting your earnings in this manner may be a bit more confusing if you're not familiar with tax law.

Either way you report it, the IRS may send you a notice simply because of the unknown nature of Bitcoin. However, the IRS will probably work with you over the matter: the fact that you'd be reporting it at all shows a lot of good faith on your part (for example, the IRS will sometimes look the other way for dealers who report earnings from drug sales as line 21 entries without listing what they are since they're actually reporting the income in the first place).
149  Economy / Service Discussion / Re: btcQuick.com Feedback Thread on: February 11, 2013, 05:33:16 AM
Decided to give btcQuick a try to see how it works. Membership cost $0.99 and required identity verification. I was able to take a picture of the name and address on my bank statement and upload it through the membership purchase process. I was verified very quickly (within ten minutes).

I bought BTC1 using my debit card. Fees were around $1.88, which was cheaper than the $3.95 I pay for ZipZap/BitInstant. This fee was based on a percentage, however, so BitInstant will probably be cheaper for larger orders. btcQuick had a fee of 7.5%, but your fees drop once you've bought enough BTC from the site: I think it goes down to 6%, which is still a bit higher than BitInstant. However, the slightly higher fees may be worth the convenience of paying with a debit or credit card and not having to track down a MoneyGram location.

It did take a little while to receive my BTC. I placed the order at 8:24PM EST and payment cleared my bank account at 8:39PM EST. I received the email with my BTC at 9:43PM EST. It seemed a bit long since the website says that the BTC is sent once payment clears, but it's still around the same time frame as BitInstant, minus the driving time for depositing the cash. I emailed customer support about the status of the order and they replied very quickly and in a friendly manner; I received the BTC shortly after they replied.

btcQuick sent a .zip file containing a .pdf that had both a public and a private key (and QR codes for both). I scanned the private key into my blockchain app and sent the BTC to my main client. I do like that the BTC is sent in its own wallet, which gives buyers a lot of options for using the funds.

All in all, I'm very satisfied with my order. I definitely plan on using btcQuick again! Wink

Awesome explaination. Btw, where does it say about the lower fee if you purchase 'x' amount of BTC?

https://www.btcquick.com/buy/index.php?route=product/product&path=59&product_id=50

At the end of the description they explain the fees and transaction limits for different levels of membership.
150  Economy / Service Discussion / Re: btcQuick.com Feedback Thread on: February 11, 2013, 03:19:04 AM
Decided to give btcQuick a try to see how it works. Membership cost $0.99 and required identity verification. I was able to take a picture of the name and address on my bank statement and upload it through the membership purchase process. I was verified very quickly (within ten minutes).

I bought BTC1 using my debit card. Fees were around $1.88, which was cheaper than the $3.95 I pay for ZipZap/BitInstant. This fee was based on a percentage, however, so BitInstant will probably be cheaper for larger orders. btcQuick had a fee of 7.5%, but your fees drop once you've bought enough BTC from the site: I think it goes down to 6%, which is still a bit higher than BitInstant. However, the slightly higher fees may be worth the convenience of paying with a debit or credit card and not having to track down a MoneyGram location.

It did take a little while to receive my BTC. I placed the order at 8:24PM EST and payment cleared my bank account at 8:39PM EST. I received the email with my BTC at 9:43PM EST. It seemed a bit long since the website says that the BTC is sent once payment clears, but it's still around the same time frame as BitInstant, minus the driving time for depositing the cash. I emailed customer support about the status of the order and they replied very quickly and in a friendly manner; I received the BTC shortly after they replied.

btcQuick sent a .zip file containing a .pdf that had both a public and a private key (and QR codes for both). I scanned the private key into my blockchain app and sent the BTC to my main client. I do like that the BTC is sent in its own wallet, which gives buyers a lot of options for using the funds.

All in all, I'm very satisfied with my order. I definitely plan on using btcQuick again! Wink
151  Bitcoin / Press / Re: 2013-02-10 daytradeshow.com - Bitcoin Beatdown on: February 11, 2013, 12:48:34 AM
His arguments are based on what exacly?? This guy absolutly don't understand bitcoin nor its market.

That's what I was about to say. Has he done any research into Bitcoin? Huh
152  Other / Off-topic / Re: Has Bitcoin improved your work ethic at all? on: February 11, 2013, 12:23:06 AM
Nope. The value I get from my work is the enjoyment I get from work I love to do. Getting paid for it is just icing on the cake.
153  Economy / Trading Discussion / Re: Errors with ZipZap (bitinstant) - support not responding - suggestions? on: February 10, 2013, 11:55:33 PM
You haven't paid for it yet, right? I would just try creating a new order with BitInstant. If an order that goes unfunded for 120 hours gets deleted, so there's no harm in trying again.
154  Bitcoin / Press / Re: 2013-02-09 On Wikileaks, Bitcoin... on: February 10, 2013, 10:10:58 PM
Libertarianism may be the ideology that drives Satoshi to create bitcoin, but we don't know that. Bitcoin is very appealing to the libertarians though.

I agree. I believe that Satoshi had a libertarian background when he designed Bitcoin, but that doesn't make Bitcoin exclusive to libertarians. It's an idea that can connect with all beliefs: a currency that is free, transparent, and secure.
155  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: So.... How do 'newbies' build rep? on: February 10, 2013, 09:16:14 PM
Participate, get to know people.  Someone's gonna have to take a risk with you, and they'll probably want every security measure available to protect themselves from a scam.

With that said, if you're willing to do some trading, use escrow.  Some members here offer the service for a tip.  That way you can start building rep, and believe me, there's no shortage of people here who will thank you for your business.

Furthermore, there are always members who pretend to be nice folk, then around the 100-200 post mark, suddenly want a loan.  So expect to be here for a while before anyone really starts trusting you.

But really, just be nice, and people will be nice back  Grin  Well, within reason.
Thanks! I've offered escrow and such, but no takers. I guess i'll have to just sit on my thumbs and wait.

Sometimes people just aren't in the market for what you're selling. Not a whole lot that can be done about that. Like snapsunny said, using escrow helps in the first trades when people do become interested. I did my first trade here with less than 50 posts without a problem since I used escrow (good communication helps too, of course).

Many people here also look at your contributions to the forum. Members with good input to forum discussions are easier to trust than people with short posts, off-topic posts, or posts that are just too casual. There's nothing wrong with casual conversation, but people who put in time and effort into improving the Bitcoin community will have an easier time trading successfully with one another.
156  Other / Off-topic / Re: Impossible to pay you back on: February 10, 2013, 09:07:34 PM
BTC1,000 is $23,600.02. If someone on the forum has over $20k worth of Bitcoin, do you really expect them to give it away just like that?

Go big or go home, I suppose...
157  Bitcoin / Press / Re: 2013-02-09 On Wikileaks, Bitcoin... on: February 10, 2013, 08:47:39 PM
Quote
The libertarians behind Bitcoin might detest state intervention, but a market economy presupposes it. ... The fact that ‘unbreakable’ digital signatures—or law enforced by the police—are needed to secure such simple transactions as goods being transferred from the producer to the consumer implies a fundamental enmity of interest of the involved parties. If the libertarian picture of the free market as a harmonic cooperation for the mutual benefit of all was true, they would not need these signatures to secure it. The Bitcoin construction—their own construction—shows their theory to be wrong.

This section in particular really bugged me. To my understanding, libertarian ideology views the role of the state as protection of the rights of the people. Freedom for individuals to live as they choose as long as they do not bring harm to others. In the author's claim of exchange "[producing] an incentive to cheat, rob, and steal", a libertarian would want the intervention of the state in the manner of protecting the individuals who have been harmed, right?

I get the impression that libertarians see a difference between state intervention and state regulation: the state should intervene when the rights of the individual are in danger; the state should not regulate the behaviors of the individual (unless those behaviors harm others). In short, libertarianism is less about "no government" and more about "government fulfilling its proper role."

If I'm right, then there are two problems with the author's argument: the incorrect presupposition of the argument's foundation (libertarian ideology fueling Bitcoin), and the misrepresentation of that ideology. This is, to me, one of those arguments where the author's mind was made up before he started.
158  Bitcoin / Press / Re: 2013-02-09 On Wikileaks, Bitcoin... on: February 10, 2013, 08:06:52 PM
I'm still reading it at the moment, but it feels to me like the author just really does not like libertarians. I'm not a libertarian by any means, but it annoys me that he's linking the entire currency to one political party.  Undecided

An idealogy.

Very fair point. I edited my original post for accuracy. Smiley

I'm still reading it at the moment, but it feels to me like the author just really does not like libertarians. I'm not a libertarian by any means, but it annoys me that he's linking the entire currency to one political party.  Undecided
The author is a Marxist who is desperately trying to find some combination of mental contortions that can magically transform voluntary exchange into exploitation.

Quote
Yet, the question of who owns which Bitcoin in itself starts to problematise the idea of harmonic cooperation held by people about economy and Bitcoin. It indicates that in a Bitcoin transaction, or any act of exchange for that matter, it is not enough that Alice, who makes coffee, wants shoes made by Bob and vice versa. If things were as simple as that, they would discuss how many shoes and how much coffee was needed, produce it and hand it over. Everybody happy.

Instead, what Alice does is to exchange her stuff for Bob’s stuff. She uses her coffee as a lever to get access to Bob’s stuff. Bob, on the other hand, uses his shoes as a leverage against Alice. Their respective products are their means to get access to the products they actually want to consume. That is, they produce their products not to fulfil their own or somebody else’s need, but to sell their products such that they can buy what they need. When Alice buys shoes off Bob, she uses her money as a leverage to make Bob give her his shoes; in other words, she uses his dependency on money to get his shoes. Vice versa, Bob uses Alice’s dependence on shoes to make her give him money. Hence, it only makes sense for each to want more of the other’s for less of their own, which means deprive the other of her means: what I do not need immediately is still good for future trades. At the same time, the logic of exchange is that one wants to keep as much of one’s own means as possible: buy cheep, sell dear. In other words, they are not expressing this harmonious division of labour for the mutual benefit at all, but seeking to gain an advantage in exchange, because they have to. It is not that one seeks an advantage for oneself but that one party’s advantage is the other party’s disadvantage: a low price for shoes means less money for Bob and more product for her money for Alice. This conflict of interest is not suspended in exchange but only mediated: they come to an agreement because they want to but that does not mean it would not be preferable to just take what they need. This relation they have with each other produces an incentive to cheat, rob, steal. Under these conditions — a systematic reason to cross each other — answering the question who holds the tenner is very important.
Got it?

If you and I trade coffee for shoes we live in state of blissful utopia, with no incentive to disagree or to cheat, rob or steal from each other.

If on the other hand you and I decide to trade our coffee and shoes for currency, perhaps because we'd like a convenient solution to the double coincidence of wants problem, then gravity reverses itself, dogs and cats start sleeping together, and we suddenly transform into evil capitalists who will no doubt slit each other's throats and start raping kittens at the drop of a hat.

Yeah, that was one of the most idiotic paragraphs I've read. I almost want to write my own essay in response to this one, lol.
159  Bitcoin / Press / Re: 2013-02-09 On Wikileaks, Bitcoin... on: February 10, 2013, 06:36:08 PM
I'm still reading it at the moment, but it feels to me like the author just really does not like libertarians. I'm not a libertarian by any means, but it annoys me that he's linking the entire currency to one political ideology.  Undecided
160  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: How Bitcoin dies? on: February 10, 2013, 06:27:14 PM
The genius behind Bitcoin is that it is not worth attacking when it is small and vulnerable, and it is extremely resilient once it becomes big enough.

Excellent summary of what I feel is the US government's current stance on Bitcoin. In the US, at least, Bitcoin is not big enough of a "problem" for them to waste time and resources on. My hope is that Bitcoin will have shed most of the misconception surrounding its use by the time that it does become big enough for them to deal with. Maybe it'll see acceptance instead of condemnation. Or, at the least, apathy on their part.

Do they even know it's there?! Maybe the CIA knows it, or a couple of senators know it...but everyone will be like "What's bitcoin?"

Didn't someone here on the forums post an FBI file containing a general Bitcoin analysis? At any rate, your post is kind of what I mean: most people in the government don't have a clue what it is and the few who do probably don't think of it as a threat right now.
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