I will admit that I thought that the fees would stay higher for longer, and perhaps with a bit of uncertainty for several months.. .but, yeah we are ONLY about a month out and fees have been pretty damned reasonable for about the last week or so..

The fact that someone denigrates others who post about shitcoins and/or bullshit metrics in terms of their supposed positive relation to bitcoin (within this thread) does not mean that their eyes are closed.

In other words, fuck shitcoin and fuck the pumping of bullshit distracting metrics.. especially in these here parts.


By the way, if any of you had not noticed, the contents are factually actually inaccurate.

To correct the matter:  The bitcoiner (little hodler) should have had requested two pizzas. 
Or alternatively the pizza maker should have had said 5,000 bitcoin if the request had been ONLY for one pizza, yet to me, it seems better to stick closer to the facts, since at that particular time the final deal ended up coming to two pizzas for 10k BTC.. not one pizza for 10k BTC.


I don't mind the idea.. but what BTC price would be we be using for either the historical data or for the future BTC price data?  Maybe a specific time of the day?  or maybe the high price for the day?  or maybe the average traded price for the day?

I find appeal to authority to be problematic in any argument.

To me, it seems better to argue why something may or may not be true, instead of generally proclaiming that "it must be true because 'experts' say so."

Sure some folks are smarter than others, and some folks have better logic, but it seems to me that it is likely better to refer to your authority folks specifically or refer to what they said (or might have had said) or substantively back what you are saying rather than proclaiming "experts say."

The thing is that an overwhelming number of folks who are in their first 4 years of accumulating bitcoin are going to be getting used to the process as well as a consider amount of likelihood that an overwhelming majority of folks are going to also experience a decent amount of fluctuation in their income and/or their expenses that will help to guide them in regards to how aggressive they are able to be without overdoing it (or under doing it).


I agree with everything you said Tmoonz, and sometimes we might not even realize that we had crossed into a territory of either being overly aggressive or perhaps overly whimpy until somewhere later down the road.. even though I would speculate that being overly aggressive is potentially more problematic than having had figured out that you had been overly whimpy, because many folks will likely erroneously have the feeling that they had been too whimpy in their investment in the event that the BTC price ends up going way up, they end up saying to themselves:  "I should have invested more," yet the fact of the matter is that if you are actually attempting to be as aggressive as you can be, then you are already making those kinds of proper balances in terms of your level of aggressiveness.

A similar thing is true on the opposite side, if you end up experiencing some kind of an emergency and you are ill-prepared for it, even though you thought that you were more than sufficiently prepared, you might have to scramble to figure out ways to not sell much if any of your bitcoin in those kinds of circumstances, so there could end up developing circumstances in which you are able to save yourself with a kind of "close call" such as going to a family member with an emergency loan or something like that, but there also might be circumstances where you realize that the circumstance could have had been worse, and maybe you end up selling and/or losing 10% or more of your BTC holdings, but you do not sell/lose all of it, and so in those partial damage situations, you may well learn how to protect yourself in better ways in the future..,. so you live to fight another day, even though a bit more damaged than you had anticipated to have had been possible.


I was liking your post, and I was about to send you an smerit Wind_FURY, but when I read the last portion of your last sentence, I was dissuaded... and I even got a bit emotional about such stupidness being spewed from your keyboard.

In other words, fuck shitcoins.

Bitcoin is not "one of a handful of blockchains"..

Fuck that nonsense.

Do you even realize that almost every single blockchain out there is either an affinity scam upon bitcoin, or it completely relies on bitcoin in order to have any value at all?

That is a really dumb statement.. sounds like a statement from someone trying to appear smart in regards to the idea of "crypto" or "blockchain" not bitcoin, so there is a loss of perspective in regards to what bitcoin really is.. as if it were just some other project out there that just happens to be in the lead at this time..

What nonsense you sputtered (or came out of your keyboard).. That could not have had been a slip.  You really believe some version of that nonsense.  Am I not correct?


I will say that you do not need to establish your emergency fund prior to getting started in investing into bitcoin - especially if you are investing for the long term.


That information is good, but you do not need to establish all of that prior to getting started in bitcoin.  You can simultaneously get started in bitcoin and get the stuff you listed into place.  So you are wrong in terms of suggesting needs to establish those things prior to starting your investment into bitcoin.
 

Wrong.

The error or an overwhelming number of most people is not getting started.  First thing.  Get started..do stuff.. and even if it is just $10 investment to start.. At least at that point you are started.  Yeah you can work out the details later, and yeah you should be thinking 4-10 years or longer, so if you are planning on some kind of short-term then that is likely erroneous, so there are people with wrong mindsets, but that still does not necessarily mean that they should not get started, especially if they understand the foundation of investing into bitcoin as being 4-10 years or longer.
 

Waiting is not an investment strategy... whether your starting goal (ideas) is 1 bitcoin or some other amount... 

Yeah.. good catch.. ..

Perhaps somewhat orderly in terms of being sorted by number of characters in the user-name.. . a bit of a random thing.. but still, there might be some benefits of substantively sorting. but yeah there could also be some advantage in catching duplicates if the sort is somewhat in accordance with user name rather than in accordance with pushup substance.. perhaps? perhaps?


If the date is not in the correct format, it might not get included into the table.. I am not sure.  it probably depends upon what kind of error is contained in that part of the report.. and if the error might merely be included in terms of ambiguity or if it fails to get recognized because it is not in a recognizable pattern..

I am going to mostly focus on your last paragraph Barikui1.  I largely agree with what you are saying, even though I also believe that there is a bit of nuance regarding any kind of attempt at real world application in terms of having great recognition and appreciation that it is quite likely that bitcoin is on an inevitable upwards price trajectory - while at the same time preparing oneself for the also existence of inevitable short-term price volatility that can go either way, especially in the short term.. so in that regard, many folks talk about the practice of HODL - which kind of sounds like gambling - since if actual conviction exists in regards to bitcoin, it still likely can take a very long time to build up the stacked amount of bitcoin, which in reality also means that an overwhelming number of folks are not necessarily able to buy large quantities of bitcoin in the beginning.. but instead they need to continue buy bitcoin on an ongoing, persistent and regular basis, which sure that involves holding too..

but one of the more important practices is ongoingly buying no matter the BTC price.. that may well take 10 years or more to play out in which some other practice (other than ongoingly, persistently and regularly buying) might start to seem reasonable.. and yeah, 10 years seems like a long time, yet at the same time, there are folks in traditional investments that invest for 30-40 years or longer and hardly make any progress in terms of their actually having had built wealth that outpaces inflation in any kind of significant and/or meaningful kind of way.  Sure, bitcoin is not guaranteed to outpace inflation in a significant/meaningful way - even though surely it seems to be the most sound money that has ever been created/invented/discovered.


Careful martinex.  There can be a variety of ways to increase income or cut expenses and/or improve skills and employability including sometimes making better choices regarding how to spend time in terms of preparing, planning and executing or even figuring out ways that income might increase even though some time (and even money) might be needed to invest into skills or into figuring out ways to make friends who have better connections, and I am not even saying that starting your own business is a good use of time, even though it could be for some folks, which can surely vary based on location and even social connections that a person has which may or may not be based on social class starting points.

We cannot always be sure if working harder is a potential solution as compared with working smarter - and so the answers are not always going to be clear in terms of figuring out how to increase disposable income, which is either increasing income and/or decreasing expenses. 


I am not sure if you are capturing my ideas very well, and sure, no problem, there are likely going to be differences in the way that any of us consider bitcoin as an investment and what kind of an approach we might want to take in terms of either getting started investing into it or establishing a bitcoin position or maybe at some point coming to the conclusion that we have accumulated enough bitcoin or even more than enough bitcoin.

So each of the stages can take a while to play out, and for anyone who gets over the hump of actually considering to invest (rather than just thinking about it), is likely putting themselves into a position in which they have to put some kind of a BTC accumulation plan into action, and surely you do not need to be rich to buy bitcoin, yet surely the more disposable income that you have, then the more likely you are going to have greater flexibilities in terms of how much of that disposable income that you are going to be ready, willing and able to invest into bitcoin.

So yeah anyone starting to invest into bitcoin now or who had only started to recently invest into bitcoin, may well find themselves having some kinds of dilemmas regarding how much to invest or if they might be too late or maybe there might be come reason to wait for dips rather than investing now, so there can be various levels in which confidence is lacking, and they are trying to figure out their own level of conviction and how much of their disposable income that they might want to dedicate towards investing into bitcoin.. and perhaps establishing a decent position in bitcoin that could take 4-10 years or longer merely to establish a decent position, even if investing fairly aggressively during that whole time.

So, yeah, what is the balance that any of us reach in terms of investing into bitcoin? and are we wiling to just figure out some kind of a reasonable amount that works for us and to potentially just continue to build our bitcoin holdings for 4-10 years or longer, and surely if we are somewhat new to bitcoin, we might have hesitations regarding how much we might want to commit in terms of our investment, yet at the same time, we might also be getting distracted by some desires to potentially profit in a period of less than 4 years to invest some money and then to cash out during an upcoming wave that folks seem to be talking about...

and surely people can do whatever they like, yet I frequently suggest that it is is much better to not get lured into thinking about potential short term price waves in bitcoin and just figure some kind of an accumulation plan that will at least take you through a whole cycle (of 4 years) and then perhaps after you spent some time accumulating bitcoin for 4 years or more within your budget, then you can study bitcoin through that time (and also your personal finances and psychology) in order to come to some conclusions in regards to whether you might make some adjustments to your own BTC accumulation strategy based on where you are at with your earlier employment of such strategy for 4 years or longer.

I had heard that the NY attorney general's settlement with Genesis from right around the same time of the announcement of Sonnenshein's resignation might have also had some potential connection to the whole matter, and yeah there could be a variety of explanations (and considerations) that are not necessarily made public.. that may or may not end up coming out of the woodwork at some later date.

https://www.cnbc.com/2024/05/20/new-york-ag-announces-2-billion-settlement-with-crypto-lender-genesis.html

We are also back to an idea regarding the potentially lowest number of days to get all of the 2021 dates pushed off of the table, and surely today is under the belt, which would leave us with another 72 days to get the final 2021 date off of the table.. again staying above $67,483, which surely our odds are going to be similar to what I had mentioned previously when I entered the bet with tertius993 - so surely the odds could not be any worse than they were previously.. in the 10% to 20% territory that the weight traded daily average will not go below $67,483 in the next 72 days (after today).

So maybe in other words "we are back," yet at the same time, I don't claim to be a great enough analyzer of the technicals to really consider how much odds might be better or worse than they had been earlier in terms of experiencing a streak, such as 72 days, in which sub $67,483 is not reached therein... yet as I mentioned 10% to 20% seems to still be roughly in the ballpark of reasonable.

Funny that some folks describe an "open mind" with an off-topic distraction. 


Who cares?  #justsaying

Yes.. that is a fairly good point to highlight I_Anime.. so in the beginning if a newbie investor tries to be be a bit aggressive or even a bit overly aggressive in his investment into bitcoin, he might feel good for a while, but he is not going to be in a very good position if by surprise he finds out that he was actually too aggressive or even that he had put himself into a kind of emergency status because of his over aggressiveness.

So many times people will suggest that getting into an investment is better to error a bit on the side of some level of conservativeness which means less aggressive and perhaps even a bit whimpy until you get used to the fact that you are trying to set up a system in which you will never ever need to dip into your bitcoin investment before a time of your completely own choosing, which surely may well be 4-10 years or longer.

If people are not used to investing, by fault they might become a bit overly aggressive in terms of considering that some or all of their bitcoin could serve as a kind of emergency fund in the event that mistakes are made, yet surely that is not a very good way to invest into something as volatile as bitcoin.. so if the thoughts are that none of the funds that are invested into bitcoin can be touched for 4-10 years or longer, then that kind of a mental framework might be helpful in terms of investing a bit less into bitcoin while building the various other systems of emergency funds, reserves and float, and surely once those are decently in place and have been practiced for a while, there may well end up being abilities to become more aggressive with the disposable income that is then coming in, than would have otherwise been possible without having those various systems in place and without having some periods of practicing your systems and getting good feels for where the boundaries are.


Surely having a computer and being able to use various computer programs, such as excel, can be very powerful in terms of helping you to get to higher levels of analysis in terms of manipulating your data and/or changing some of the variables to be able to project forward in a variety of ways.

Surely you can also do several of the same functions with paper and pencil and maybe even some of the ideas might make more sense when they are on paper and even spread them out and look at your various notes in which some of them you might update regularly and others you might use to model out and/or get better understandings. 

There is always going to be some possibility that bitcoin goes down instead of up and also that it might go to zero, so we should not consider those kinds of going to zero scenarios to be completely outside of the range of possibilities. 

Regarding your second point about bitcoin affordability and availability to poor people.  I surely hope that bitcoin is always available to everyone and anyone, including poor people, and yeah sure, it is likely that the longer that bitcoin exists, the fewer bitcoin you will be able to buy with the same quantity of dollars.. so that does not mean bitcoin is not available, but instead that fewer satoshis can be bought with the same amount as could be bought earlier.. so even now, as I type this post, we can buy in the ballpark of 1,426 satoshis for a dollar, and someday in the potentially near future we might ONLY be able to buy a few satoshis for a dollar.. so yeah, the amount of satoshis that we get for the dollar is likely going to continue to go down, so if we have already stacked millions or even 100s of millions of satoshis and we are able to continue to stack them and perhaps not lose them then we are likely going to be advantaged over the folks who are going to be brand new to bitcoin in the coming years, whether that is 4-10 years or longer, and whether they have a lot of money to get started or if they stack over the years, there can be differences in the situations including likely advantages of starting out in the stacking and maintaining of bitcoin journey earlier rather than later.

Can you keep it up?  That's the thing. 

Members proclaim how easy it is to do pushups after getting used to it, and sure there is some truth to it.. especially comparing now to earlier, and even some of my slow pushups I would have had never been able to do as many and as slow as I sometimes am able to do them, yet I continue to struggle..

Surely I thought it would be easier to cut down to 200 per day.. once I got my average at that rate... since my average had gotten up to that amount.. and I had been doing way more pushups per day and per set in order to get the daily average up to 200...

And, so yeah, currently, I am not pushing myself for high quantities every single set, so there is some refreshedness with those lesser pressures.. but it still hurts.. and also, if I fall behind on the quantity of my daily pushups or even if I were to miss a set or two in a day, it is not an overly high amount of pushups to have to make up, so I should be able to catch back up by doing sets of 5 and perhaps doing 50 or more per set.. and then it should end up being the case that I would end up catching up within a few days of experiencing the deficit..


I don't known.

Reading and writing about them in this thread does frequently motivate several of us in terms of actually doing them, so maybe we might get one or two more sets in, since we are planning on submitting our report, but we might feel that we need to finish all of the sets of the day prior to submitting the report.


Yes, no pushups may seem that it is working just fine and dandy, until a bit of gush of wind comes along and blows your little skinny coffee-drinking feather-ass away.   

hahahahahaha


All fine and dandy, Briankimp1  - except you have to figure out how to quote properly.


Actually I believe that saw what you did.. There was a "/" missing from one of your end quotes.. which turns it into a front quote.

You must be new here..


Fuck shitcoins.

The tail does not wag the dog.

In udder words:  Don't you know nuttin?




Oh no?  Contagion is taking place.  


This is what happens when shitcoin talk is allowed - even by one IOTA...

Pretty soon everyone is talking about shitcoins.


I like the nice little addition of the circle thingie.. whether it is a moon? or a sun?  or some other circle/global object.  Nice..


Not on Bitstamp.

Our local high on Bitstamp, so far, has been $71,958.  So the last time I checked that number is not $72k nor higher than $72k.  #just saying  

By definition, in order to get into the top 10, there is ONLY a need to stay over $70,012 for most of the day (or at least most of the volume).

Staying above $70.4 will put the daily weighted trade price into the top 8, if not higher.

Ok.  Sure.  I will take credit.

Averaging less than 10 pushups per day, you are OUT OF HERE.... That is my preference, and of course, it is not like I am in charge of anything.. just stating my preference and just stating what I believe to be a fair cut-off.


Ooooo.. .... 

Nice round number for a nice round day...

100 days..

10k pushups..


You do what you like.

Every member in the table had either submitted a proper report or another member submitted it for them.  It does not seem to difficult.  All you need to do is to put in your particulars.  The number of days doing pushups and the total number of pushups.. Those are the two main substantive numbers that go into your report.. and yeah sure, the other parts are important too, but does not seem too difficult to figure it out, and if you cannot do it, then I suppose Darwin's survival of the fittest applies in terms of which forum members end up having their user names included in the table. 

---

100k,JayJuanGee,106,21204,2024-05-20

I agree with your point about anyone can argue or debate with whomever they want.

Regarding your question about the idea of "initial capital," you can call your investment into bitcoin whatever you like, and if you are calling it disposable/discretionary income or you are calling it capital, it comes off as a bit strange if someone has an income of $500 per month and expenses of $400 per month, and they are putting $10 per week into bitcoin.  Difficult (and seemingly misleading to me) to call that $10 per week initial capital, but you can call it whatever  you like.

Part of my point, and many guys here seem to "get it" is that if you are starting to invest into bitcoin, and the only thing that you have is some quantity of disposable/discretionary income that you are investing into bitcoin, then likely you are converting your disposable income into capital, especially after many years of investing into bitcoin, but part of the fact that you don't really have any extra money (except your disposable/discretionary income, it is seems strange and misleading to be calling that capital, even if it might later add up in such a way that the "capital" label will start to make more sense.

The percentage of allocation can quite vary depending on individual circumstances, including questions about whether you have other investments, and surely if you are starting your first investment with bitcoin, then all that you are going to have is bitcoin and dollars, but if you are starting your investment with an already existing diversified portfolio (referring to traditional assets, not shitcoins), then you may well consider an initial target of 5% to 25% in bitcoin would be a good target.. for example, a guy who might come into bitcoin and already have $50k invested in index stocks or something like that... then he might consider an initial target of 5% to 25% in bitcoin would be something like $2,500 to $12,500 - but then if his allocation in bitcoin grows based on bitcoin growing rather than his putting more into bitcoin, then he may well consider how to treat that growth and whether it is worth it to allocate in other assets or just grow his bitcoin portion until it reaches some kind of a meaningful size..

so if his annual income/expenses might be in the ballpark of $40k per year, then maybe he is going to want to get his bitcoin holdings up to 1 or 2 years of his annual income/expenses prior to considering any kind of need to diversify into other assets.

For sure, these are not easy choices, but there are likely folks who might already have various kinds of traditional investments who decide to ONLY focus on bitcoin in terms of their new accumulations of investments, even though they surely might let their traditional investments ride.

Another problem is that some western countries have is the existence of 401k-like products, which are both tax free but also those products might have employer matching contributions, and so with those folks, they may be tempted to invest into those 401k-like products, and they might not even have a lot (if any) discretionary income remaining after they had already allocated to those 401k-like products (and which products are ONLY recently potentially getting bitcoin ETFs as one of the allocation options within them).

But, yeah, folks who do not have any of those employer and/or government-sponsored products, they may well come to investing and they may well start investing into bitcoin, and bitcoin is largely their only investment, so they are merely diversifying (or slightly de-risking) the amount of their BTC exposure by figuring out how much cash to keep.. so they are largely just BTC and cash, so they may well end up having 70% to 90% in BTC and the other part in cash and/or various kinds of cash alternatives (again not necessarily referring to shitcoins - even though some folks in poorer countries might not have a lot of investment options outside of the "crypto" space)....

..so then if the holdings in the overall investment portfolio are mostly just bitcoin and cash or cash equivalents, then at some point - maybe after 1-2 years worth of income and/or expenses is starting to build up into the BTC /cash holdings.. there may well be some concerns that the cash portions are not working enough.. so even though BTC is quite volatile, the BTC portion might still be considered as "working" so there may well. be some desires to have more of the cash portions to be working also, which in some senses justifies the concept of diversification into a variety of other assets.. maybe adding one new asset at a time ever year or every few years.. .... or there might be some other considerations that a person might have based on the investment options that he considers to be available to him.. and hopefully no more than 10% of the value of bitcoin will go into any shitcoins.. even though people have to make those kinds of choices for themselves based on their perceptions of options... and if they might consider whether they are able to invest in stocks, property, commodities, bonds or other forms of cash/cash equivalents.

Oh gawd Philip.   

You have collected a lot of junk over the years..

And, failed/refused to accumulate enough bitcoin (which is not junk).. hahahahahaha   #justsaying


Who would-a-thunk?

Go from one problem.. to another problem of not having your earlier problem, which is a problem in and of itself.

Yeah.. let's practice the beginning of a draft "form letter":

"It has come to our attention that......"


hahahahaha


Who is "our?"

Our = "me and my bot" = DirtyKeyboard and his pushups script

I don't have any problem with arguing if some kind of a meaningful point was being made, and of course, any of us can be wrong or phrase things badly, so the back and forth will sometimes clarify areas in which we might differ, including if we don't agree.

One of the difficulties of making a kind of absolute assertion such as the one that Reredmi896 was making is that he is not completely wrong - except that he expressed the need for capital as an absolute, and then even after I gave him a specific example in which his absolute was not correct, he still continued to insist that there is a need for capital to invest into bitcoin.

So maybe I am criticizing him more for his ongoing arguing about a wrong point rather than proclaiming that he should not be arguing.. yet we have the problem of both being wrong and then arguing about it, even after being shown specifically how the point that he was making was wrong.

It is difficult to take guys like that seriously, but yeah, let's see if he comes back and continues to try to argue that same point or if there might be some kind of a clarification that he is able to make.. or maybe he might just admit that there are cases in which what he said is wrong.


I largely agree with you.  Newbies have the right to argue about whatever they like, and it is even better if they are able to back up their points with facts, logic and/or reasonable conclusions.. and even opinions that may or may not be well expressed..

And, yeah, sometimes it will take quite a bit of back and forth battling before any of us might figure out if there are good or bad arguments being made.... At  the same time, some of the longer term forum members might be bad with their own ways of expressing themselves, including but not limited to yours truly.. and it can be quite good that another member point out those weaknesses, illogicalities, confusing areas and/or other substantive and/or style problems.


I usually don't get upset in regards to posts, and so far I have not considered myself to be upset in our back and forth discussion of these matters.


Sure BTC accumulators (investors) can overdo their ongoing allocation and then have regrets when the BTC price drops, but they can also under do and have regrets when the price rises.


There still was a reason that I gave those examples in the first place, and it had to do with a claim that you made regarding people being able to invest in ways that they would not be sacrificing anything, so that's most likely the reason I gave the examples in the first place, and so we may well be making various different points, and some of the main points might have had gotten lost in the whole process, to the extent that any of it matters in the first place... which my main reasons for responding to the first of your posts in this series of discussions was that I was claiming that almost no matter how much a person invests, whether it is $10 per month or $1k per week, there is going to be sacrifices in the present for the future, and yeah, sure we can imagine really extreme examples where nothing is missed, and those would most likely happen to be whimpy investors.. but yeah, whatever, all of these details and examples might mot even be that important, if we are losing the context (or reasons) regarding why they were brought up in the first place.