also danke fuer die guten Rueckmeldungen.

selbstverstaendlich ist Kritik jederzeit erklaubt und erwuenscht. Werde dies fuer die Zukunft beruecksichtigen. Einen "echten" Vortrag mit Folien wollte ich bewusst nicht machen, der "unprofessionelle" Charakter des Videos ist schon absichtlich so gewaehlt.

No i cannot post a draft agreement ;-) This is the next step when the questionnaire is finished as everything depends on the outcome and on how much investment capital we would have. Or we would see from the result that liquidation is the only way out as too little amount of persons are willing to cooperate.

And if you can find the lost coins somewhere please let us know... ;-) Before that i would say its conspiration theory.


Unfortunately there is no "best" option, only a "least worse" ;-) At least i clicked the "invest" option as i like the idea to be somehow participated in the new project instead of wasting money for lawyers

sorry, i dont get it....

how should the old owner be able to stop the new service once the site has been transferred? In this case it would be out of his control, but why should he want to do this? The new site would be based on an agreement to pay back the old debts. CURRENTLY, while we do not have an agreement,  M4V3R can stop the service tomorrow when he wants to, but not anymore after an agreement to transfer the site has been "signed".

And your ideas about how liquidators work are quite weird ;-) I have followed few cases of liquidation, these guys are simple buerocrats, they collect all kind of paperwork together, try to sell the assets and charge a high fee for little work. After that they check once in a while if the bankrupt person has any new assets and thez distribute it fairly amongs the creditors and thats it.

Do you really beleive the liquidator would understand anything about the business or bitcoin? He does not care less. And that he would come up with ideas on how to improve the website?? And after that he "forces" the old owner to programm things that are beneficial for the creditors and when he does not do it he goes 2 months longer into jail?

Im totally on your side when you say it should not have happened that coins are simply lost.

the point is... the 100 BTC or let it be 1000  would simply go to the liquidator
also, please do not forget M4v3Rs will to clean up the situation should be considered really more valuable than you would get from going through any formal liquidation processes...

This option means the following:

The site is reopened under new ownership, independent from the old site. The invested (additional) money would go directly into the initial payout of frozen coins. Furhter payouts would be done on a monthly basis from 50% of the profits of the new site. The problem is of course, that the question "what happens exactly" cannot be answered fully right now, as we still need to see (with the questionnaire) who is willing to invest and also it needs to be clarified how much is the investment sum. Also from development point of view it needs to be discussed what can actually be done in which timeframe.

Starting from there new functions for example a peer2peer market is planned to be developed beyond the standard bitcoin buying/selling to make the site actually profitable (so far it hardly makes any profit). More details would only follow after this pre-screening questionnaire when we know exactly how much is the investment sum plus how big is the amount of cooperation.

In case the cooperation rate is too low the new site project would not be started and the "official" liquidation is inevitable which in fact means the closure of the site.

becoin, it is not (only) the decision of the liquidator if the site continues, but also up to the admin ;-) I agree that liquidation is the "official" way, but i am quite sure it will hardly bring you back frozen coins, maybe 6% according to the figures i have seen.

So in that sense deeplink is right, no liquidator can force the admin to develop new stuff or keep the site running on his own time while at the same time he liquidates all his plenty private assets like 70 inch Plamsa TV, his ferrari, rolexes and all his real estate ;-) *irony off

I have a different opinion on this. If it is a case where the reason for bankruptcy is illiquidity while there are a lot of (valuable)assests behind that could be monetarized it might make sense. In this case you have basically the website plus some minimal private savings which would be eaten up by the costs of the liquidation procedure. I also dont think that selling the website would bring so much. It is just another buerocratic process where in the end no one would get anything except the lawyers.


I agree, the term does not matter, the coins are simply not there anymore.


No, there should be a clear way out with a restoration plan (reopening the website, sharing profits between users etc etc.) which cannot be changed anymore once everyone participating "formally" agreed on it.


The liquidation in fact would mean that the website closes entirely and legally it is part of the liquidation mass as it might have some value. And in this case the current owner would do a shit in doing any extra effort to pay back additional user funds beyond what is left over after liquidation.

Yeah, the so called "well established bankrupcy procedure" is always possible. For that everyone is free to click the option "i do not want to cooperate". It is well established in the sense that lawyers are the only winners in the end...I have seen this in practice several times, maybe in poland its different than in Germany, but i assume its about the same.

At least i would not prefer this option, it would take quite some time to liquidate, a good bunch will go to lawyers and the liquidator. I was also considering this option for my frozen coins, since it is the "official standard procedure", but out of my frozen 620 coins I would get back maybe 50 after one year, the current estimate is maybe 6% and the admin would not be able to do any work on that site and unless he wins the lottery it is not likely that in the next years there would be any payout.

I (personally) am also not willing to bid for an auction for the website in case of liqudation, so at least my planned investment of 10000 euros into the site would be gone, one would need the admins support to learn how the site works and so on and by just buying the site in an auction this would not be possible. Otherwise you can start from scratch anyway. But maybe i am wrong, there are plenty of investors just waiting to take over the site and pay a lot of money for it....


In any case, tacoexperience said everything about "negativity", in this case here you can basically chose between

A) I dont get my money back
B) I dont get my money back, but i have a chance.

So, at least for me, i take the B option

nachdem ich es satt hatte Freunden und Bekannten die selbe Geschichte immer und immer wieder von vorne zu erklären habe ich mich endlich mal hingesetzt und alles als Video aufgenommen

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CSrYHhnxaQ

Wenn es jemandem hilft, würde ich mich freuen :-)

tacoexperience, good post, all is true....

and hey, 50% initial payout? What are you dreaming of ;-) why should anyone take the 30% option then ;-) Estimate something like 6%

well, you have read the alternatives i assume ;-) You can chose between pest and cholera that means:

A) Either you do not get your coins back or
B) you do not get your coins back, but you have a chance to get something back


actually i would say the "cooperate" is the best option, where you can expect an initial payout plus payback of the rest over time eventually at least. Investor is actually a bit more risky, since you do not get any initial payout, but in the long term it might be better, lets say in 25 years when debts are paid back and you would get a share of net profits ;-)

In case you need quick cash, i think the 30% option is better than nothing and in case you have enough money for a lawyer you can try the "do not cooperate" option.

In case you want to get some coins, do NOT chose "donate" ;-)

why should this in any way be related to Bitcoin?
looks more like a standard bonus miles system

what is special here?

HOW it is possible to repay debts is indeed the most tricky question. (Newly) invested money is one part to repay frozen coins, the rest needs to come of course from future profits, for which i proposed the 50/50 model to share between the investors to get their investment back (new money and introduced frozen coins as shares) and the other half goes to the non-invested frozen coins in addition to the initial payout until 100% of the debts are paid back.

Bitmarket.eu service would in principle stay as it is, but extended by new P2P services where user can trade also other things as bitcoins. Plus there will (hopefully) some sponsor links (external shops) that pay part of their turnover to bitmarket when using the bitmarket referral link and there would also be user specific advertismenet space to be sold.

I mean no one would promise any quick profits over night and there would also be a lot of development work to be done at first, but i think it is the best way out of the current situation and i really hope it will work, since i also have "some" frozen coins which i would like to see back one day

I think your willingness to "clean up" and help to do the best to get out of the situation contributed a lot and is highly appreciated and honored. When the remaining results stay like this the bitcoin community might get a big chance to start a new platform "owned" by many stakeholders that are highly interested in the success of the new project.

über die FIAT jobs hab ich mich ja sowas von kaputt gelacht, super Sache, sag bescheid sobalds es irgendwo zu kaufen gibt

no one can ever be 100% sure that the new owners do any better.
But the plan is to introduce a couple of measures to minimize the risks:

-First of all a multiple eye principle, where it should not be possible that one single person is alone in charge of handling the coins
-secondly we want to keep all principles of good bookkeeping. Since there will be for sure multiple investors it is necessary to introduce a monthly reporting about the situation. It would NOT be possible to hide any problems for long time.
-There will be a regular impressum of the responsible persons of the site and at least my name / address etc. will be publicly available

This questionnaire has the purpose to check the situation before an investment can officially take place. There has NO investment taken place yet and still everyone is invited to participate.

So far we only have a plan which is to reopen the site under new ownership, share 50%/50% profits between all new investors according to their share to recover somehow the investment sum and the other half goes to the "frozen coins". We are still open for new ideas and of course additional investors (which is also purpose of the questionnaire). So far the plan is to extend to bitcoin trading by some additional P2P trading concepts and to get sponsor links plus sell advertisement space.

So far the site is still with Maciej and all functions are working as before. Newly added funds are separated from the old frozen funds. We would like to answer all questions on how much the investment sum is and so on as quickly as possible, but we do not know ourselves yet. But the outcome of this questionnaire actually determines which possibilities we have. If you have any questions on what we have planned (not in detail, but in principle) you can contact me directly and I would try my best to explain the concept(s). So far i have PLANNED to invest (I did not yet) 10.000 euros plus my share of 618,xx frozen bitcoins into the new site. But the final sum is unknown. Since me and Maciej hardly know each other and also never have met in person, therefore we are going to have a face to face meeting AFTER the questionnaire with the main investors to discuss how to realize the current plan that we have described in principle in the questionnaire. We would inform immediately about any new developments.

How the new site would be managed, who is the owner or all those "legal" questions, also depend on the outcome of the questionnaire and the amount of investments. So far the IDEA is, that, if it is true that i would hold the biggest share with 618 BTC plus 10.000 euros, i would take over "legal" responsibility of the new site. If some (yet unknown person) decides to invest for example 200.000 euros then the situation might change easily *g

If too many people with frozen coins refuse their cooperation it is simply impossible to reopen the site, since the website is of course part of the liquidation mass and we would need to go the official path which is of course unfortunate for everyone... The investors cannot invest, as it is "illegal" to separate assests from the liquidation mass,  Maciej would need to go through the liquidation procedure with all consequences and everyone with frozen coins would be paid out what is left after liquidation. (which would be around 6 or 8% after 1 year, Liquidation process of course also costs quite some fees and time). At least for me i would consider this as a lose-lose situation where only the lawyers win.

In case the non-cooperative part is quite small we would go on with the investment plan and handle the individuals that do not cooperate on an individual basis which means in fact negotiating individually either a partial payback or a full payback in FIAT currency based on the old bitcoin price of 21.12.2012 when the coins were frozen or even take the risk of a court case or whatever. This really depends on the outcome on how many refuse cooperation and which sums are on stake and it really would depend on the outcome of individual negotiations.

So please take your time and assist us by answering this questionnaire within two weeks, if you have any questions please feel free to contact me directly

OK, just right now all people with frozen coins should have received an official information email plus the possibility to fill out a questionnaire. Please log in and answer as soon as possible. It would also be great if we could finde some additional investors, we have enough ideas but we are still far away to reimburse the 19000 lost bitcoins with current prices ;-)

ich kaufe es sofort. super idee

There are some options still being discussed, but the platform would need cooperation from users. I think there will be some "official" communication on the current investment plans quite soon.

i think the admin will provide some information about the situation quite soon with several options to chose from