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241  Economy / Securities / Re: Starting a new FPGA mining farm/contract! Cognitive Resurrected on [BTC-TC] on: July 18, 2013, 01:23:38 PM
Classic pump and dump.
242  Economy / Securities / Re: Active Mining Speculation Thread on: July 18, 2013, 01:08:09 PM
I'm expecting at least some SatoshiDice shareholders to get some money in ActM in the next 24/48h, with their BTC150,000.

The first ones will probably get into Asicminer, inflating the price a good deal; the problem is that Asicminer has been more or less constant for the last weeks, so there's really nothing that substantial to justify a big momentum up. After the price goes up a bit, mostly will diversify into other stuff, so ActM is a really good candidate.

The volume of AMC-PT on btct.co has been going strong in the last days and coupled with increasing VMC's pre-orders, the last part of the NRE funds will be gathered in just some days.
243  Economy / Securities / Re: [ActiveMining] The Official Active Mining Discussion Thread on: July 18, 2013, 12:56:30 PM
Quote
The pre-orders of miners are in $. Grin

O yes of course, I was referring to the shares value in fiat (I guess they too go towards the NRE or am I mistaken?)

They are ofc, but the current amount of shares being sold already has that into consideration, as if they were the only funding path. Depending on pre-orders, not all of them need to be sold to reach $1M total.
244  Economy / Securities / Re: [ActiveMining] The Official Active Mining Discussion Thread on: July 18, 2013, 12:47:07 PM
I suppose with today's 10% BTC dip, we are now getting further away from the NRE...

The pre-orders of miners are in $. Grin
245  Economy / Securities / Re: [ActiveMining] The Official Active Mining Discussion Thread on: July 18, 2013, 12:45:42 PM
Yes really but it could also be 950k or 900k which is a big chunk less than 1M. But the bigger question was is it possible to start the process now without the full 1M.

No, they require the full NRE before production begins.

+1. There is a huge difference in price between NRE costs of 90nm (~$100k), 45nm (~$400k) and 28nm (~$1M). At the current market rate and machine sales the $1M is very very near allowing ActM to jump immediately to 28nm.
246  Economy / Securities / Re: [ActiveMining] The Official Active Mining Discussion Thread on: July 18, 2013, 12:26:16 PM
Why does it have to be exactly 1.000.000$? And isn't it possible to start the process right now with what is available? Does something have to be payed for with that exact 1m$?

Because with $1M Ken can just say "Here it is! $1M raised in less than a month! Let's negotiate an even better deal and ActM's transition to VIP customer now!" Grin
247  Economy / Securities / Re: [ActiveMining] The Official Active Mining Discussion Thread on: July 18, 2013, 11:22:56 AM
Vbs, aren't your predictions 1 month out based on when things are due to go online, basically end July and end August? Or have I misunderstood?

Exactly, it's the "balance" at the end of each respective month. Smiley
248  Economy / Securities / Re: [ActiveMining] The Official Active Mining Discussion Thread on: July 18, 2013, 10:16:14 AM
As an investor, I ask to hold a shareholder's vote to dramatically reduce a dividend, and limit paying up to 10% of profits at most. This is required for growth and for NRE.
Else the company will not be able to grow.

We must establish a growth fund.

Growth expenses are already factored in. I did the following post on the speculation thread, using 50% of the profits for growth, you can see that works pretty well:

New update, this time I considered some hardware selling estimates, as well as the impact of Ken's 15M shares on the whole operation. Smiley

(any errors found, just shout! Grin)

Considerations:
  • Mining
  • Klondikes mining at August (worst case)
  • Avalon chips overclocked to 380MHz, since they will be running on Springfield Underground data center
  • November/December (worst case) hashrate increase from the high-volume process (low-volume is not worth it for just a ~month difference), using BTC1.2 per chip+assembly cost, chips at 16GH/s, not overclocked
  • 50% of mining dividends used to buy new Fast-Hash-One 16GH/s chips
  • Total network hashrate includes ActM's mining plus hardware sold to other parties (200% markup)
  • Sales
  • Sales volume is really hard to predict. I just assumed it to be 2x the profits of mining, which I still think is really on the low side, as ActM is gonna also sell chips in bulk. For example, Avalon in getting ready to ship its ~BTC164,000 in bulk chips. There is definitely money to be made in bulk chip sales!



Conclusions:
  • Investors are fully reimbursed of their paid BTC.0025/share around December/January
  • The MH/s/share and MH/s/BTC are indeed crazy profitable
  • As soon as the unit price of chips gets down (it will drop 1/3 to 1/4 even before going to easicopy), the hashrate can rise even much further
  • Having direct access to buy hardware at manufacturing cost is what really makes this possible
  • The effect of hardware sales is just mind boggling
249  Economy / Securities / Re: Active Mining Speculation Thread on: July 18, 2013, 09:38:44 AM
I wonder whether the S.DICE buyout will help eat up some of the BTCT wall?

That's 150K BTC that will be released tomorrow. I imagine a lot of the shareholders will cash out, but a good proportion of them will be looking for new investment opportunities.

Well, if 2.24% of those BTC choose ActM, the wall is toast! Grin
250  Economy / Securities / Re: Active Mining Speculation Thread on: July 18, 2013, 03:14:02 AM
Added to the OP to be easily found for newcomers as this thread grows!!!!

Just quote it in the op, it will make it easier to replace the quote block when I post new ones! Grin
251  Economy / Securities / Re: Active Mining Speculation Thread on: July 18, 2013, 02:54:38 AM
Edit: Totally outdated now, don't quote this anymore! Smiley

New update, this time I considered some hardware selling estimates, as well as the impact of Ken's 15M shares on the whole operation. Smiley

(any errors found, just shout! Grin)

Considerations:
  • Mining
  • Klondikes mining at August (worst case)
  • Avalon chips overclocked to 380MHz, since they will be running on Springfield Underground data center
  • November/December (worst case) hashrate increase from the high-volume process (low-volume is not worth it for just a ~month difference), using BTC1.2 per chip+assembly cost, chips at 16GH/s, not overclocked
  • 50% of mining dividends used to buy new Fast-Hash-One 16GH/s chips
  • Total network hashrate includes ActM's mining plus hardware sold to other parties (200% markup)
  • Sales
  • Sales volume is really hard to predict. I just assumed it to be 2x the profits of mining, which I still think is really on the low side, as ActM is gonna also sell chips in bulk. For example, Avalon in getting ready to ship its ~BTC164,000 in bulk chips. There is definitely money to be made in bulk chip sales!

(http://i40.tinypic.com/wgrlu8.png)

Conclusions:
  • Investors are fully reimbursed of their paid BTC.0025/share around December/January
  • The MH/s/share and MH/s/BTC are indeed crazy profitable
  • As soon as the unit price of chips gets down (it will drop 1/3 to 1/4 even before going to easicopy), the hashrate can rise even much further
  • Having direct access to buy hardware at manufacturing cost is what really makes this possible
  • The effect of hardware sales is just mind boggling
252  Economy / Securities / Re: Active Mining Speculation Thread on: July 18, 2013, 02:08:17 AM
Network TH/s (inc AMC) seems to be underestimated.

Yes, underestimated for July (since it doesn't matter much right now), but I'd say overestimated from August forward, starting at ~470TH Smiley
253  Economy / Securities / Re: Lab Rat Data Processing, LLC (LabRatMining) Official Announcement on: July 17, 2013, 11:41:12 PM
Please explain to me where having a 4.3BTC share in Asicminer will pay for itself in a reasonable amount of time? 4.3BTC / 0.025BTC per share per week = 172 weeks... Why shouldn't LabRatMining bonds be worth the same ridiculous mark-up as Asicminer?  You're missing the point that some people don't want to have to host hardware and want to enjoy the benefits of mining.  I'm not only offering you the benefits of mining, but at a 7 fold rate compared to most other bond issuers.  You have to consider the fact that mining isn't a sprint, it's a marathon.  Don't ever purchase anything looking for it to pay itself off in 2 weeks...

Because Asicminer is not issuing fixed MH/s bonds, they keep adding hardware to maintain a minimum stable network percentage. It's the network percentage represented by each share that guarantees its value, not hashrate. On this scenario, with Asicminer, you have a minimum guarantee that when you want to get out, your shares are worth at least the price you paid for them first.

LabRatMining bonds, on the current terms, are losing network percentage every time the network grows, since they represent a fixed hashrate, so their dividend income and their intrinsic value keeps going down, just like any other offer out there that offers a fixed MH/s per share.

There are cases where fixed MH/s shares can be profitable, depending on the network difficulty rise, as they are most profitable when difficulty is almost steady, so an investor can buy and get more in dividends than the share decreases in value, during a specific time-period.
254  Economy / Securities / Re: Active Mining Speculation Thread on: July 17, 2013, 07:27:54 PM
All ads on BitcoinTalk bought by ActiveMining:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=253076.60

Great news! ActM getting all the NRE money in like a week would put a severe dent to some of the competition.
255  Economy / Securities / Re: Lab Rat Data Processing, LLC (LabRatMining) Official Announcement on: July 17, 2013, 07:14:13 PM
This installment will add at least 15TH/s to the companies mining operation, and with it will follow an increase in dividend payout to a minimum of 166.67MH/s per bond (this may increase depending on company expansion).  This not only gives the new investors an increase in dividend payment, but gives greater benefits to the initial and early investors.

I still don't see you figuring in the "Free" additional hashrate as the company expands, which should offset your "share value goes down"

Sure! To offset the share price devaluation, the hashrate of each share has to rise in the exact same % as the increase in % of the global bitcoin network hashrate. If the network increases 6x, each share should be 600MH/s. Less than that and it lost value.

Using the 166.67MH/s per share means that the share only devalues after the network hasrate has passed ~250TH*1.6667 = 416.67 TH/s. I'm expecting this in August, with most of 100TH getting online and the Avalon chips shipping en masse.
256  Economy / Securities / Re: Lab Rat Data Processing, LLC (LabRatMining) Official Announcement on: July 17, 2013, 06:33:52 PM
In Finland we have about 5.5 million people.

For Finland 0.5% pa for normal bank account is normal.

We pay for credit in bank about 3.5%-> any way to put money to earn money more than 3.5% is profit EVEN if you take credit from bank.

AND YOU ARE TELLING THAT PRICE FOR SHARE WILL GO DOWN?
If share will pay dividends less than 10% pa, then it price will go down....

If it will - seller side is a idiot.

(imho)

The only thing that you must to believe that bitcoin will not drop less that 99$/btc

The most important thing to know is that network difficulty adapts so that the number of blocks mined is always as close as possible to 6 blocks every hour. This means that around BTC3600 are mined per day (25*6*24).

The current network hashrate is ~250TH/s, so 100MH/s will earn you BTC3600*0.1/250000 = BTC0.00144 per day. 100MH/s represents 0.00004% of the network.

When the network hashrate is ~1500TH/s, 100MH/s will earn you BTC3600*0.1/1500000 = BTC0.00024 per day. 100MH/s then represents 0.00000667% of the network, which is 6x less, this is why the share value goes down.

Paying BTC0.15 for something that represents BTC0.00144 per day might be good now, but not later.
257  Economy / Securities / Re: Lab Rat Data Processing, LLC (LabRatMining) Official Announcement on: July 17, 2013, 06:06:29 PM
Did you miss that my whole argument is that 0.15 per 100MH/s when network 1500TH/s is still a good price (~58% annual return)? Totally competitive with anyone in the market (by orders of magnitude). If you did the math assuming ~250TH/s network (poor decision IMO), then the estimated rate of return is like 350% (meaning you earn 3.5BTC per 1 BTC invested). So yes an 83% 'devaluation' from ridiculous to pretty-good-and-totally-competitive.

It's not an annual return when the share value is going down faster than what you receive in dividends during that time-frame. Annual return supposes you can (1) sell it at the same price as you bought it one year later, while (2) earning dividends during a year. Unfortunately, condition #1 doesn't hold.

4) These shares will continue to be worth 0.15 BTCs each with no growth (or reduction).

Wrong! Wink
258  Economy / Securities / Re: [ActiveMining] The Official Active Mining Discussion Thread on: July 17, 2013, 05:11:03 PM

Will update the Speculation thread OP with this chart if you dont mind?

Of course not! Grin Feel free to add any remarks also!
259  Economy / Securities / Re: [ActiveMining] The Official Active Mining Discussion Thread on: July 17, 2013, 04:59:26 PM
Just posted some fresh estimates on https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=254930.msg2749219#msg2749219 Grin
260  Economy / Securities / Re: Lab Rat Data Processing, LLC (LabRatMining) Official Announcement on: July 17, 2013, 04:57:22 PM
2) The total network hash rate will hit 1500 TH/s (1.5PH/s - peta hash) by that time.
3) Lab_Rat will only ever deliver equivalent of 100MH/s per share. (contrary to stated plan)
4) These shares will continue to be worth 0.15 BTCs each with no growth (or reduction).

The problem is right here. You can say that BTC0.15 per 100MH/s is a great price right now (network at ~250TH/s), but when the network reaches 1500TH/s, 100MH/s is worth then 0.15*250/1500 = BTC0.025, an 83% devaluation.
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