Which jurisdiction are you referring to?  Can you reference a law, statute or decision that can back up this assertion?

You seem very sure, but I am quite sure that it is a far more complicated matter than your answer suggests.

In China, Qiu Chengwei was sentenced to life in prison after stabbing and killing fellow The Legend of Mir 3 gamer Zhu Caoyuan. In the game Qiu had lent Zhu a powerful sword (a "dragon sabre"), which Zhu then went on to sell on eBay for 7,200 Yuan (about £473 or US$870). With no Chinese laws covering the online dispute, there was nothing the police could do.

The sword is a virtual item, created out of nothingness, which trades for a significant sum on the open market. Even though the item was worth a lot of money, the theft and subsequent sale was not an illegal act.  Is a Bitcoin really substantially different in the eyes of the law?

If I somehow gain unauthorized access to your wallet.dat, I can be arrested for computer crimes.

But suppose I somehow deceive you into transferring the coins to me yourself.

In the eyes of the law, have I committed a crime?

Personally I think that in most countries, if you reported it to the police, there is nothing they could do. However I am not a lawyer so I am interested to hear what some of the more legally knowledgeable people here think.

I know of one country where I think it would be a crime. South Korea has a "virtual crime" unit, and presumably virtual crime laws. This was set up to prosecute people who steal items and in-game currency in MMORPGs and similar games and I believe that many cases have come to court, although it's not regarded as a particularly serious crime.

There are also two countries where it may be a crime. In Japan a young man was arrested for "virtual mugging" in a game called Lineage 2. A Dutch teenager was also arrested for stealing virtual furniture in a visual chat environment called Habbo Hotel. However I can't find any information as to whether either of these arrests lead to prosecution and conviction. After the Dutch arrest a spokesperson for the company which developed Habbo Hotel said "It is theft because the items were bought with real money." So perhaps in Holland it is only illegal to steal coins which have been purchased and not mined.

What do you all think?

I've definitely acknowledged things that have changed my point of view in this thread. One of them is the idea that Bitcoin can be used to empower disenfranchised residents of the third world who have been excluded from banking by giving them access to a payment system. I think in practice though that would create a two tier system and I wouldn't like to speculate on the implications of that. If anyone does move a project like that forward I think it would be very interesting, and I'll definitely be watching out for it in the future.

I think your kindergartener vs. pro athlete analogy is a little flawed. It severely understates how primitive Bitcoin is compared to the global financial system. I think it would be closer to compare it to some type of microorganism vs. a pro athlete. A bacteria is never going to beat a star quarterback, but it could evolve and change, over a very long time, into something that is good at playing a totally different game.

If we are making parting comments, I'll say this: I am very disappointed that so many people have interpreted my views as criticism of Bitcoin, and even more disappointed at the people who have accused me of trolling.

One guy said "Get over it Charlie, Bitcoins have a bright future."

It's sad that he probably will never understand that we agree wholeheartedly on that point, it's just a different type of bright future than he envisages.

Yes, but we aren't starting both scenarios from scratch, are we? I am talking about the real world, as it is now. Not a thought experiment with a level playing field.

Put yourself in the shoes of someone who doesn't already hold coins (99.99999999% of the population.) Do you still think making a Bitcoin payment is easier?

Hi, I absolutely agree with you. I'm in the business of generating ideas for a living (advertising creative) so I know how throwaway they are. I'm still not keen to divulge the entire business plan publicly because I've already done quite a lot of work exploring the feasibility of the idea and the barrier to entry is pretty low, but I'm not going to be asking anyone to sign an NDA or anything of that nature. I'm sure that as soon as this business starts up then competitors who are doing the same thing will swiftly emerge, but I'm not keen to hasten that process. I'm sure you understand

However, I also have some contacts which will give me a competitive advantage in this type of business, and I think once any potential investor sees my business plan then they will be quite convinced it is an idea that will be well implemented.

It's possible. Like I say, medium risk, medium reward. The idea could work out really well and make a decent, near passive, extra income for myself and someone else. Equally it might not work and it's a few grand down the drain for both partners. This is the risk that anyone takes when they start a business. I'm not going to invest more than I can afford to lose and I don't expect anyone else to either.

I think it's a good idea that is definitely worth risking a bit of money on. If someone else, after they hear the idea, also thinks that the risk/reward ratio works out then we can get started. If not, then I'll probably put up the capital on my own and just hire someone locally to be the second man, although like I say I'd prefer to have a partner rather than an employee. That might be tricky, because it's easier to find a committed partner than a committed employee, especially when it's only a few hours work a week. I'll cross that bridge if I come to it.

It's a Bitcoin related, internet based business. I'm happy to reveal more to interested potential investors if they are happy to agree confidentiality.

In what way? I can understand that it is equally easy to make a credit card payment as it is to make a Bitcoin payment if you already own coins, but if you don't hold any coins then it is a much more convoluted procedure.

Count me as unaware of your argument, since you have decided not to make any point at all other than to put your fingers in your ears and say "You are wrong, you are wrong, you are wrong" over and over again.

Also, that is not an ad hominem attack. An ad hominem attack would be "You are as dumb as a sack of rocks, so you must be wrong."

You seem very convinced of your ability to determine whether an argument is logically sound or not. I can only assume that means you are also confident of your ability to construct one. I would be delighted to hear it. I'd be very surprised too, because you haven't contributed in a remotely substantial way as of yet.

My entire point is that Bitcoin can't compete with credit cards and shouldn't try. You are preaching to the choir here, you should raise this point to the oddball "end the fed" Libertarians and assorted "global economic collapse is coming" tin foil hatted whackos participating in this thread who preach the bizarre and unhelpful dogma that Bitcoin is the future of all payment and currency.



And puts 100% of the risk on to the consumer. You think consumers are going to stand for that? Especially when dealing with small businesses who don't have a strong brand? Not a chance.

Please explain to me which online payment method is easier and safer than credit cards. If you say "Bitcoin" then you are as dumb as a sack of rocks.

This is very unlikely to happen because of the way credit card processors charge their customers. Small businesses usually pay per transaction, and this can be pretty expensive. Huge chains pay a large flat fee to handle unlimited transactions. This is why small stores and bars often impose a minimum transaction for credit card purchases, but supermarket chains don't.

Even if an online store did offer a discount for paying BTC, I doubt it would be much larger than the transaction costs associated with buying BTC. Plus the store themselves would no doubt incur costs when they sold the BTC, plus the high risk of price fluctuations, etc.

A very large chain of stores here in the UK called Marks and Spencers used to accept EUR as well as GBP for a while. They had to stop because fluctuations were harming their bottom line. And this is with very stable currencies (when compared to BTC).


I think superior is the wrong word. More like "vastly more practical for most purchases." Bitcoin is superior for other things. Like buying drugs online.

Maybe in 5 to 10 years things will be vastly different. We'll see.

Credit cards are just the easiest and safest way to buy things. You know it and I know it, so don't be ridiculous.

It is Bitcoin that seems to be held (by some) with such divine reverence that to even mention that it has some shortcomings is blasphemy here.

Also, to describe me as a critic of Bitcoin is an unfair and inaccurate characterization. I am a Bitcoin supporter. I just have a more realistic view than most.

You remind me of a comic strip character called Mr. Logic in a magazine called Viz. Some UK people might get a laugh out of that.

Do you have autism? I am not trying to be rude, it's a serious question, because people with autism often get confused like you are.

Let me put it in a more simple way. Let's say I don't currently hold any Bitcoins. I want to buy a product or service. What am I going to do? If I am paying for it online, I would use my Visa card. I punch in the numbers on the website, and I am done. If the product does not arrive then I can put in a dispute to Visa and get my money back. I think it's a good system.

Now, why the fuck would I, instead of going through that simple process, go through the hassle of buying Bitcoin, try to find a merchant who accepts Bitcoin for the product I want, pay him, and then have no recourse either through a payment processor or the police if something goes wrong? Why the utter fuck would anyone do that? It's so utterly bizarre that anyone thinks they would...unless of course it is a product that isn't available through the usual (legal) channels.

Also, as to your second point, I was actually on the internet in 1995. It was a million times more useful than Bitcoin is now. It had so many uses, even back then, that the comparison is actually hilarious.

Hey sturie I fixed that for you buddy.

Hey, y'know what would be even more awesome? If everyone who posted in a thread made some kind of constructive and intelligent contribution to the debate.

Hi everyone,

I am seeking an investor to go 50/50 in a joint venture with me. We would each put up 200 BTC each for seed capital. This is a medium risk, medium reward, long term business opportunity that will require effort and ideas to build as well as money. Building the business with me won't require any special skills other than business management and good judgement.

The reason I am looking for the investment rather than funding the whole operation myself is that I think it will run best as a two man team and I want someone who has the same financial interest as me in making it a success.

If you seriously interested in a new project and you have 200 BTC and a few hours a week to invest, then please send me a PM and I will explain the nature of the business.

Cheers,

Charlie

Definitely not you! If there every is a Bitcoin Council you should be excluded, you and anyone else that was involved with Pirateat40. Excluded from both membership and representation.

Thanks. It's currently tied up as part of a rental property of mine. I'll enjoy it even more when I cash out the 5000 or so coins I still hold, hopefully for a fair bit more than $100k.