Many interesting ideas moving around in this thread. I'd like to further address this whole money thing... I realize there is a lot of arguments regarding "what is money" but I think that's a highly appropriate discuss for these forums, no?
On the definition of money: Too often people think money "is" or "is not". They say a dollar "is" money. Gold "is" money. Bitcoin "is" money. Or, they'll say gold "is not" money, or fiat "is not" money, or Bitcoin "is not" money, etc. Astonishingly, I've now heard that oxygen itself "is" or "is not" money. Money is not a binary condition, but rather exists on a gradient of utility. Lay out all things in the world, from air to gold to steel beams, eggs, sand, human hearts, goat eyeballs, fighter jets, US dollars, and bitcoins... lay it all out in a row. While some might try to sort them into two piles, "money" and "not money," that is a fool's errand. Instead, all these things can be arranged in order of their usefulness AS money. In other words, each things makes a better money than something else, and each thing is often inferior as money to something else as well. People don't need to agree on the specific arrangement, but it should be self-evident that such arrangement is not very difficult to do.
Precious stones are better money than sand (unless one lives where such stones are plentiful and sand is rare). Gold is better money than precious stones (because it's fungible/divisible/etc). Steel beams are worse money than cigarettes. Why? Because the value to weight ratio of cigarettes makes them far more convenient to be used as money (though steel is more durable, so perhaps you'd argue steel is the better money). Oxygen would be a terrible money wouldn't it? Because, simply, it's far too plentiful. How much oxygen would I ask you to trade me in exchange for my car? How would it be delivered and stored? Absurd!
Do you see the point here? All things are money along a gradient of usefulness as money, and this gradient may differ in different geographic locations (on a planet made of gold, gold would be a terrible money). So if one dude is arguing that oxygen is money, and another argues the opposite - both should stop. Oxygen could be used as money, but it would suck for that purpose. That's the end of the argument. In the same way, USD can be used as money (and works very well for that purpose). Yet, it is still an inferior money to gold and bitcoin in my opinion, because it can be printed at whim. Once one has an understanding of the ordinal nature of all goods as potential money, then one can really appreciate why Bitcoin is so excellent for this purpose. It is a beautifully engineered good, almost perfectly suited for usefulness as money.
This whole argument hearkens back to the fact that money is intrinsic to barter - when you trade your eggs for a loaf of bread, and then use that bread to trade for a steak, you've used bread as money. Bread works okay as money, but it's not great (it spoils, has low value to volume ratio, etc). Thus, people who argue against money are arguing against exchange itself, as I have said before. To preclude money from society is to preclude trade.
And to say that society can exist without money is to say that nothing along that ordinal range of goods can ever be exchanged by anybody to anybody else. THAT is an absurd notion.
I disagree with this, and I wrote an article about how money is demonstrably different from simple exchange. As I wrote in my article, money is constructed through collective agreement. As such, it has the effect of subjectively displacing the inherent value of other goods. The example I used in the article was as follows: I like guitars, and in 100 out of 100 scenarios I would prefer to own a guitar -- ANY guitar -- over a watch. I have clocks everywhere and I don't need another one. But if the watch is made of 24k gold, I'll take the watch over a guitar -- virtually ANY guitar -- any day. Thus, something that is said to be money (i.e. gold) effects the value of something that is not money (e.g. a guitar; a watch). Now, let's say people that did not collectively agree that gold is significantly valuable. You could try to argue that the guitar I own is money and that the watch some other guy is offering me is also money, but this is foolish. Employing gradients of usefulness to things that could potentially be used as money does not do anything to change whether something "is" or "is not" money. You could take that loaf of bread and say it's money, and I will tell you it's not. Who is right? If you paid money for that loaf of bread, then you would be saying that you used money to buy money, which could then be used as money to buy more money. THIS becomes absurd as then absolutely everything and anything can be used as (as you suggest) and IS (as you do not) money including oxygen. This is how money functions: Higher syntax (money) --> Determines subjective value of lower syntax (goods). Or... Money --> Determines subjective value of bread, guitars, watches, etc. In a bartering economy: Subjective value of lower syntax (goods) --> Determines subjective value of lower syntax (goods) Or... Subjective value of bread, guitars, watches, etc. --> Determines subjective value of bread, guitars, watches, etc. Money functions on a separate level entirely apart from the value of the goods it determines. A moneyless society simply means that you are removing the higher syntax and keeping the lower one. In other words, you are removing collective agreement of value and reverting to individual determination of value. |
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There are several reasons why I do not use Gox:
1) Absolutely god-fucking-awful customer service. They (I assume) deleted my old account, which still had a few cents in it, without ever informing me or warning me in any way.
Actually, #1 is all I need. No reason to list any more.
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Hi I made the mistake to encrypt my client with the inbuilt passphrase option.
Now every time I want to send something I have to enter the damn 15 digit passphrase!
Why isnt there an option to UNencrypt the wallet?
I already un- and then re-installed the client, but it just comes back up, like nothing happened (encrypted).
Pls help me (and Gavin, if you read this, pls add this option to the new version or make users only enter the pass when the client opens)!!!
Uninstalling and reinstalling the client won't do you any good because the wallet is the thing that's encrypted. That way, when a hacker steals your wallet and tries to import it to his client, it will still be encrypted. Is it really that bad? Mine is like 70+ digits  And I committed it to memory. |
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Bump-diggity
Didn't I tell you not to eat the Jack Daniels Salami from The Fresh Market on 75th? Lol. PMing. |
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coooooooooooooooooooool
Scamcoins, Now with the ability to slowly drain your balance!
Signing off until the official release... Stay tuned to MicroCash.org for updates. That's all Folks!  Signing off to the past? |
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For me and my individual situation, the answer is hardware, without hesitation.
Edit: Zero electric cost to me.
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The biggest threat to BTC as I see it is non-GPU miners.
For me, the main attraction of BTC was that I could mine it myself. I could literally "generate" money with my own computer.
And so could anyone else with a half decent computer. Thus it was easy for people to obtain bitcoins, and then spend them.
Once the FPGAs take over, squeezing out the GPU miners, the only effective way to obtain BTCs will be by buying them with cash, which is hard to convince people to do.
EDIT: What I'm getting at is that a huge attraction of bitcoin is the ability for just about anyone who want's to to mine it. Once you have to start paying cash to obtain them, they lose a lot of their convenience.
Um, it's enormously inconvenient and pretty costly compared to buying them outright to acquire any significant amount of bitcoins (more than, say, 10) by mining them these days. You're right that FPGAs are a threat to bitcoin, but not in the way you think. As FPGAs and botnet miners take over the network the price is going to plummet. Why? Because FPGA and botnet miners have much lower operating costs and can tolerate selling for lower prices and they'll essentially compete with each other to sell their bitcoins, creating a race to the bottom. You might be tempted to get all giddy at the prospect of buying "cheap" coins, but the falling price will generate more bad press for bitcoin, thus pushing further away the sorts of people this project needs - regular people. As people will be less inclined to participate in bitcoin, because they see a history of falling prices since it's received most of its public attention, demand will continue to wane even as supply continues to increase; and, as I've said, most of that new supply will be going into the hands of FPGA and botnet miners who can afford to race each other off a cliff. Interesting point of view. You don't think that serious investors would buy anyway and that everything would equalize? I mean, the reward halving in December coupled with falling prices would mean that it wouldn't take a whole lot of cash to buy the equivalent of an entire day/week of block rewards. To me, it seems that in most plausible scenarios where a Bitcoin price drop seems likely there exists plausible counter-scenarios to create balance within the economy. No, I don't think that serious investors would buy anyway. Buy anyway? Why would they buy if the the price momentum is downward? The reward halving, IMO, further compounds the problem I've described. Unless the price doubles when the reward halves, lots of miners are going to take a serious hit to their profit margin. This will be especially true for GPU miners, whose operating costs are higher. Botnet and FPGA/ASIC miners will, of course, take the same hit, but as their operating costs are lower, they'll be apt to stay in the game longer; but as I've already described will end up competing with each other to sell their coins to cover their operating costs and attempt to profit. This will drive the price down. That the price will continue down will in all likelihood scare off the newcomers the project needs. The project is significantly more robust and the infrastructure significantly more secure, yet demand hasn't increased over last year. The best explanation for why demand has been so weak is because of all the shit that happened last year, and that apparently continues to happen, and because the price has been in decline for so long. When you invest a lot of USD in Bitcoin, and Bitcoin tanks, you will lose a lot of money. Thus, if you have a significant amount of money already invested, you will have an incentive to reinvest. Why did people 'buy anyway' on the way down from $33? Why did they buy at $12? Why did they buy at $10? At $8? At $4? At $2? Let's say you buy 1 oz. of gold at $1600. Then the price drops to $1400. So, you buy 1 more oz. of gold. That way, all it would take for you to break even on your investment (instead of being down $200) is the price going back up to $1500. |
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This is bullshit, why the hell isn't bitcoin following the basic laws of supply and demand ?
What the hell is going on with the hashrate ? It can't be FPGA's yet and why the hell would people be throwing money at GPU's right now?
just weird.
Because the demand is driven by speculation and not driven by the desire to purchase goods/services. Thus, the price of Bitcoin currently functions largely as a product of psychology and not much else, though this is slowly changing. |
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The biggest threat to BTC as I see it is non-GPU miners.
For me, the main attraction of BTC was that I could mine it myself. I could literally "generate" money with my own computer.
And so could anyone else with a half decent computer. Thus it was easy for people to obtain bitcoins, and then spend them.
Once the FPGAs take over, squeezing out the GPU miners, the only effective way to obtain BTCs will be by buying them with cash, which is hard to convince people to do.
EDIT: What I'm getting at is that a huge attraction of bitcoin is the ability for just about anyone who want's to to mine it. Once you have to start paying cash to obtain them, they lose a lot of their convenience.
Um, it's enormously inconvenient and pretty costly compared to buying them outright to acquire any significant amount of bitcoins (more than, say, 10) by mining them these days. You're right that FPGAs are a threat to bitcoin, but not in the way you think. As FPGAs and botnet miners take over the network the price is going to plummet. Why? Because FPGA and botnet miners have much lower operating costs and can tolerate selling for lower prices and they'll essentially compete with each other to sell their bitcoins, creating a race to the bottom. You might be tempted to get all giddy at the prospect of buying "cheap" coins, but the falling price will generate more bad press for bitcoin, thus pushing further away the sorts of people this project needs - regular people. As people will be less inclined to participate in bitcoin, because they see a history of falling prices since it's received most of its public attention, demand will continue to wane even as supply continues to increase; and, as I've said, most of that new supply will be going into the hands of FPGA and botnet miners who can afford to race each other off a cliff. Interesting point of view. You don't think that serious investors would buy anyway and that everything would equalize? I mean, the reward halving in December coupled with falling prices would mean that it wouldn't take a whole lot of cash to buy the equivalent of an entire day/week of block rewards. To me, it seems that in most plausible scenarios where a Bitcoin price drop seems likely there exists plausible counter-scenarios to create balance within the economy. |
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Just before 00:00 GMT there was a volume of 220,000 dropping BTC to $4.80. It's back to around $5 now but someone is certainly making a lot of moves.
How do you set the computer to make loud annoying buzzing alarm when the wiggle like that? I don't want to miss the action.
A few months ago, a user of this forum named Jesse had created a web app alarm that would sound a bull or bear sound upon crossing a price threshold. I remember it being clever and useful; however, I don't know that it exists anymore... I searched the board for a link, but to no avail. Either I need more coffee or this forum's search sucks. Nice!!! |
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Microcash is just a rebranding of SoiledCoin. To claim otherwise is to contradict the current marketing material which claims every SoiledCoin will be migrated to Microcash. In that sense, it is just an extension of SoiledCoin.
Microcash is not just a re-branding, there are significant changes. The widely feared trust nodes are gone. MtGox does not control the license to Bitcoin. MtGox does not control the source to Bitcoin. MtGox does not control the block chain of Bitcoin with tyrant nodes. MtGox holds those Bitcoins in escrow for their users, they cannot decide to spend them as they see fit without breaking the law. The CPF and tyrant nodes were under your total control. That is the difference.
Do you read my posts in the context they are written in? "the joint" claimed that Coinhunter having "1/8" of the coins in the entire network harms the decentralization of Microcash. I responded with the rebuttal that any amount of coins does not relate to the decentralization of the network since there are no trust nodes. And here you are rambling something completely remote. The code is still not open-source. It is proprietary, licensed and controlled by Coinhunter. We can see the source for the client nodes, but not for the tyrant (server) nodes. Client/server architecture where one party controls all the servers is not "decentralized", nor is it peer to peer.
I never said it was open-source. I said the source code is freely available on their website (he was talking about SolidCoin). The Microcash source has not been released yet, how can you claim to see the source for the client nodes and not the server nodes? Anyone can run a server. Clients are only there for the average joe and those who don't want to download the blockchain. I guess you should add "Purportedly," to the beginning of your claims. If the Microcash source has not been released yet, then how can you claim its decentralized and that the tyrant nodes are gone? Regardless, CoinHunter's personality alone makes me want to stay away from MicroCash, decentralized or not. Bitcoin has absolutely obliterated every former SolidCoin attempt in terms liquidity, value, # of merchants, transparency, media hype, novelty, etc., and CoinHunter still had the balls to try to claim that SolidCoin was better than Bitcoin in every way. It's bad enough when you're a pathological liar, it's even worse when you begin to believe the shit you spew. With CoinHunter, RealSolid, and notyep, the SolidCoin/Microcash currency has had the absolute worst and most thoughtless ad campaign I have ever seen in my entire life. They remind me of Bulk and Skull from the Power Rangers. I kind of think that CoinHunter has a crush on Bitcoin and that he keeps slamming it like a first grade boy slams a first grade girl when he likes her. |
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the first two responses were rude and unprofessional.
i see a very possible sorry bitcoinica is out of business message coming net week.
i have every right to ask questions. you have no right to insult me and call me names.
i run large businesses and would never insult potential clients. ill think twice now before using bit instant
Actually we do have that right. Do you know what projection is? A little self-awareness will help you realize you're pissed at yourself for relinquishing control of your money to a party you didn't know. BitInstant is an amazing company and they've gone out of their way to help consumers out in troubled times -- I specifically recall how they helped the community when TradeHill shut down. Now your anger is causing you to lash out at people who did not cause you to be in the situation that you are in, but who are in the same situation as you and are handling it much better than you are. R-e-l-a-x. There's an old saying, "If there's a solution to the problem, then there is no need to worry. If there is no solution to a problem, then worrying will do no good." Patience, grasshopper. |
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Just before 00:00 GMT there was a volume of 220,000 dropping BTC to $4.80. It's back to around $5 now but someone is certainly making a lot of moves.
How do you set the computer to make loud annoying buzzing alarm when the wiggle like that? I don't want to miss the action.
A few months ago, a user of this forum named Jesse had created a web app alarm that would sound a bull or bear sound upon crossing a price threshold. I remember it being clever and useful; however, I don't know that it exists anymore... I searched the board for a link, but to no avail. Either I need more coffee or this forum's search sucks. I've been thinking about this all week! That thing was hilarious (and useful). If anybody has any info on what happened to this, I'd love to know. |
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Reasons not to use Microcash (as I recall them):
1) The creator is an immature, insecure, greedy little fuck. He's already created multiple failed versions of Solidcoin which ripped directly from the Bitcoin source code without giving credit to it as instructed by the MIT license.
2.) Development team has consistently claimed that their currencies are decentralized when they aren't. In the past, they would not publish the code as open-sourced. When you ask them specific questions about the technical aspects of Solidcoin/Microcash, they respond not with an answer, but rather by 1) insulting you or 2) insulting Bitcoin.
3.) I did the math in a previous post -- Coinhunter had about 1/8 of the coins in the entire network based upon the amount of money that he stated he had invested in it. How's that for decentralization?
4.) There's really so much more I could write, but I don't want to look up any specific posts as it would be a waste of my time.
Seriously, if you use MicroCash, you deserve to have every bit of your investment stolen. Every Solidcoin version to date has been pumped and dumped to hell, this version will be no different.
One definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.
Coinhunter is the reason we have abortion.
I asked why Microcash is a scam. 1, 2, 3, 4 are not valid reasons. 3.) I did the math in a previous post -- Coinhunter had about 1/8 of the coins in the entire network based upon the amount of money that he stated he had invested in it. How's that for decentralization?
How does having any amount of coins relate to the decentralization of the network? Mt. Gox has a large percentage of Bitcoins in their wallets, you don't see people complaining how that harms the security of the Bitcoin network. 2.) Development team has consistently claimed that their currencies are decentralized when they aren't. In the past, they would not publish the code as open-sourced. When you ask them specific questions about the technical aspects of Solidcoin/Microcash, they respond not with an answer, but rather by 1) insulting you or 2) insulting Bitcoin.
I believe the source code is freely available on their website. Although it was a concern in the past, it is not one right now. 1) The creator is an immature, insecure, greedy little fuck. He's already created multiple failed versions of Solidcoin which ripped directly from the Bitcoin source code without giving credit to it as instructed by the MIT license.
These versions are iterations of the ongoing development of SolidCoin. They are not separate entities from each other, just like new Bitcoin releases. What defines a version as 'failed'? Having no users running the specific version? I'm sure there are older Bitcoin versions which have have zero users. Okay I agree with you on the MIT license. I know you asked about what makes it a 'scam,' but I responded with "reasons not to use it" instead because I can't prove it was a scam. I'd rather fuck with Magic Johnson than microcash. |
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Matt, I got further than you did when it came to the question of why they need to sell fast. Apparently they need to sell fast at any price in order to pay their employee's salaries. They got angry when I pointed out that the only way this makes sense is if the company is completely broke (they can't sell their mining rigs either, for reasons which they refused to explain, so we'll just have to draw our own conclusions on that point). They said I can't judge their business methods because "every one can not judge who is wrong or not,cuz everyone nog god". Then I told them I was an atheist and they apparently didn't believe me: 21:17:10
i think you are not,cuz you can not belive all the things,just thinking about one way is right
21:17:41
you don't know running and make dreams come true may have more ways to through it
The conversation ended shortly thereafter. I guess you have to be a beliver to buy bitcoins from them.  Except klamm, obviously. LMFAO Funniest fucking post I've ever seen. |
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Reasons not to use Microcash (as I recall them):
1) The creator is an immature, insecure, greedy little fuck. He's already created multiple failed versions of Solidcoin which ripped directly from the Bitcoin source code without giving credit to it as instructed by the MIT license.
2.) Development team has consistently claimed that their currencies are decentralized when they aren't. In the past, they would not publish the code as open-sourced. When you ask them specific questions about the technical aspects of Solidcoin/Microcash, they respond not with an answer, but rather by 1) insulting you or 2) insulting Bitcoin.
3.) I did the math in a previous post -- Coinhunter had about 1/8 of the coins in the entire network based upon the amount of money that he stated he had invested in it. How's that for decentralization?
4.) There's really so much more I could write, but I don't want to look up any specific posts as it would be a waste of my time.
Seriously, if you use MicroCash, you deserve to have every bit of your investment stolen. Every Solidcoin version to date has been pumped and dumped to hell, this version will be no different.
One definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.
Coinhunter is the reason we have abortion.
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this is why the website need to be UP asap and if is needed bitcoinica should manually process any withdraw, you need to understand that you can separate ppl from their money for a weekend(48h) just like that, the end result will be worse monday
well said!! Not well said. Bitcoin users need to understand that exchanges like Bitcoinica and Gox CAN, WILL, and DO separate people from their money for a weekend or longer. I understand this is a very stressful time for a lot of people, but it is your money and your responsibility. That's the Bitcoin idea remember? The power of money is returned to the people? Well own up to it! |
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Each time my trust in bitcoin raises it get kinda crush by a new hacking scandal. This scare me as I invested quite a lot in bitcoin both financially and in my expectations. In my humble opinion, one of the best solution agaisnt the theft is this proposal I made earlier (and went largely unoticed) : https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=68188.msg794810#msg794810Btw, are multi key address already in the protocol by now ? Don't lose trust in Bitcoin. This is simply what happens when dumb sheep all congregate in the same place. I've never used Gox, never used Bitcoinica, and I haven't had a single problem. Use your head and you decrease your chances of losing your BTC. Famous last words. Maybe, but that's why I created my super-secret emergency BTC bailout system |
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Each time my trust in bitcoin raises it get kinda crush by a new hacking scandal. This scare me as I invested quite a lot in bitcoin both financially and in my expectations. In my humble opinion, one of the best solution agaisnt the theft is this proposal I made earlier (and went largely unoticed) : https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=68188.msg794810#msg794810Btw, are multi key address already in the protocol by now ? Don't lose trust in Bitcoin. This is simply what happens when dumb sheep all congregate in the same place. I've never used Gox, never used Bitcoinica, and I haven't had a single problem. Use your head and you decrease your chances of losing your BTC. |
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