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3481  Other / Off-topic / Re: Libertarians Are Sociopaths on: October 25, 2011, 12:26:34 AM
I currently do so. I do not understand its relevance with regards to my involvement in this thread..

You seemed to express incredulity that education for the poor could be provided voluntarily. I was suggesting that since you and others currently voluntarily do so, or at least would voluntarily do so if they were not forced to do so, that they would continue to do so without being forced.

I expressed incredulity that anyone would be so naive as to think that the little bit of volunteering is anywhere near sufficient to compare to public institutions, or that poor people can afford any sort of education at all.


It worked fine before public funded education took over the religious imperative to educate children.  Still would, if the government would get out of the way.  Public education isn't about education, it's about social indoctrination.  Always has been, and the early proponents were pretty open about that.  They were, predominately, pro-eugenics fascists; before those were "bad".  They honestly believed that the lower classes needed to be 'indoctrinated' and acclimatized to the industrial factory work. 

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It sounds like serfdom to me. Anyone who truly believes that the poor can pick up and educate themselves has never spent time in a third world country...or the southeastern united states.


They can and will, if that is what is left to them.  Some will fail, obviously; or be failed by their parents.  There is nought that public education is going to do to stop such trend, if the US is in long term decline.  For that matter, they have been trying to do exactly that since truancy laws were introduced to the US; and moreso since the Department of Education was established, and have always failed.  Try as they (and you) might, with the best of intentions, you cannot educate those who do not see value in it.  I attended a private school my entire childhood, at great expense to my parents, because of the sorry state of publicly funded education; yet the private schools are still modeled after the public institutions.  They end up that way because of efficiency.  My children are homeschooled, mostly by my wife who has a BS in Biology.  They make me look ignorant.  The major difference is that they don't spend hours each day in educational theater, surrounded by peers who do not wish to participate in the soul-crushing day-prison.  Ever wonder how a well behaved child can be a discipline nightmare at school?  It's often a direct result of the educational environment itself.

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I would keep doing supplemental tutoring with four children who have nothing. I don't think my meager efforts would save them if they weren't allowed a public education.

Good for you, but don't delude yourself about their education.  Your efforts would be fruitless if not for their own efforts and the desires of their parents.  The average homeschooled child spends only 2-3 hours each day actually working on intentionally educational work.  So if you think about it, the truly successful students who are institutionally educated (public or private) are being homeschooled by their involved parents anyway.  It's just under the direction of the institution.
3482  Other / Politics & Society / Re: This is how the weak are protected in a free society. on: October 24, 2011, 09:41:18 PM
Actually anonymous is only doing this because it's funny to pick on stupid people.

Is that right?  So the "cyber" defense contractor that they humiliated to the point of the CEO publicly asking for their mercy just a couple of months ago, they were just a bunch of stupid contractors working for an even more stupid federal government willing to pay them?

The "Hidden Wiki" that they refer to is on Tor, which means that they able to identify the actual servers that host the Hidden Wiki, as well as the servers that host the CP sites noted.  This is supposed to be so difficult as to be practially impossible to do, and according to the author, this feat took only a few minutes.  
3483  Other / Politics & Society / Re: This is how the weak are protected in a free society. on: October 24, 2011, 09:37:56 PM
Actually anonymous is only doing this because it's funny to pick on stupid people.

Is that right?  So the "cyber" defense contractor that they humiliated to the point of the CEO publicly asking for their mercy just a couple of months ago, they were just a bunch of stupid contractors working for an even more stupid federal government willing to pay them?
3484  Other / Off-topic / Re: Libertarians Are Sociopaths on: October 24, 2011, 09:32:59 PM
So the tribal wars in Africa are ... what?

Not even in the same ball park as the wars waged by nation-states, if they can even be called wars at all.

Or the drug wars in South America?

You mean the ones caused by nation states prohibiting the production, distribution, and use of certain substances?

Have a look at what happened in Rwanda and tell me that it can't be called a war at all.

That's not exactly fair, is it?  That was a civil war based upon tribal differences, but one tribe had a complete lock on government, and thus is was also an ethnic cleaning by a government.  That fact gave one tribe an unacceptable force advantage over the other.
3485  Other / Off-topic / Re: Libertarians Are Sociopaths on: October 24, 2011, 07:56:44 PM
I disagree. If governments were a lot smaller and more decentralized there would be fewer and less devastating wars. There would be conflict but it would be very small skirmishes.

If big governments mean big wars, small governments mean small wars, why wouldn't no governments mean no wars?

The wars would be reduced in scope, but a fued between large family clans (hatfields and McCoys?) is still a war of sorts.  However, the scale of the conflict does matter.  The other people who live in the area are likely to intercede.
3486  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Very few normal people would wait days for the blockchain to download. on: October 24, 2011, 07:43:37 PM
It's so difficult to produce fake blockheaders, that, unless you are handling huge amounts of BTC, it is perfectly fine to trust any headers you receive on a lightweight node (as long as its hash has the leading zeros).
True, with a caveat.  Your untrusted block chain must have "pretty good" total difficulty, and you must acquire a recent estimate of "pretty good" from somewhere.

A lightweight client that only uses block headers would simply have to choose three different sources at random, download the block headers from all three sources, and check them against each other to make certain that they agree.  If they don't dump all data collected from that set of three and start over with another set.  Change your set of three every couple thousand blocks, and you're pretty well protected.  This is similar to what the full client does when accepting a new block.
3487  Other / Off-topic / Re: Libertarians Are Sociopaths on: October 24, 2011, 05:42:51 PM

Fucking inefficient big government. What have they ever done for humanity besides getting us to the moon and inventing the Internet?

The government did not invent the Internet.  At most, the Defense budget paid for it.
3488  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Intellectual Property - In All Fairness! on: October 23, 2011, 06:06:35 PM
...snip... 

If your issue is that the elected don't represent society, then you have a basic issue with democracy.  That's sort of off topic to this thread. 

I guess you could say that my issue is with representative democracy, but since this is a federated republic and not a democracy, is such a complaint unfair?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy

I would have thought you live in a state that is both a democracy and a republic but I'm conscious that goes wildly offtopic.

You would be wrong.
3489  Other / Politics & Society / Re: This is how the weak are protected in a free society. on: October 22, 2011, 10:19:53 PM
How many of these people were actually abusing or aiding in the abuse of children? Few, if any, I bet.

It'd be hilarious if "Lolita City" was a honeypot op set up by one federal agency, only to be largely populated by undercover CP investigators busilly trading in CP already captured in previous cases, while desperately trying to make a case against each other.

In fact, "Lolita City" does seem kind of rediculously obvious, and Tor itself was developed by Navy Intelligence.

That would make a great plotline to Hackers 2.
3490  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Will we ever be allowed to attach arbitrary text to transactions? on: October 22, 2011, 10:11:46 PM
You can already do this if I'm not misunderstanding something.

sendfrom <fromaccount> <tonamecoinaddress> <amount> [minconf=1] [comment] [comment-to]
sendmany <fromaccount> {address:amount,...} [minconf=1] [comment]
sendtoaddress <namecoinaddress> <amount> [comment] [comment-to]

You just need to use the daemon.

No, the comment is only internal to your logs unless you are directly connected to the receiving client daemon, which is only likely using the -sendtoipaddress flag that is deprecated due to other security issues.
3491  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Will we ever be allowed to attach arbitrary text to transactions? on: October 22, 2011, 09:48:46 PM
Yes, but only after the scripting function is enabled, which will allow you to associate a particular transaction to an external document on the web, among many other complex things.
3492  Other / Off-topic / Re: Libertarians Are Sociopaths on: October 22, 2011, 09:44:51 PM
who is atlas ? and can i know him ?

atlas is the screenname of a teenaged forum member, who recently changed his screenname due to gaining a rep that was attracting constant attacks from a subset of the forum membership.
3493  Other / Off-topic / Re: Libertarians Are Sociopaths on: October 22, 2011, 09:01:52 PM
Ayn Rand's root premise regarding charity was that it always did more harm than good...

I'm not an objectivist but I don't think that's accurate.

"There is nothing wrong in helping other people, if and when they are worthy of the help and you can afford to help them." -Ayn Rand

I believe that she softened later in life, and this quote came from this period.  If you have ever read her magnum opus, Atlas Shrugged and recognized it for what it really is, a philosophy book wrapped up as a work of fiction, it's pretty obvious that she didn't feel this way when the book was written.  The main character has many famous lines, not the least of which, involves John Galt telling another character to lead a moral life by never letting the word "give" cross her lips.
3494  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Satoshi, Bitcoin Is a Commodity Not a Currency on: October 22, 2011, 08:46:22 PM
Bitcoin is only a commodity in the sense that its backed by its ability to be transferred across the internet easily, anonymously, cheaply and securely; better than any other currency. One would usually define this as money but it could also be said that money is a commodity backed by the same use.

A logical answer seems to be that money is a commodity.

The process of transfering funds around the Internet is a service that the bitcoin network performs with near zero cost, but that service is neither an inherent feature of the currency that is bitcoin, nor is it possible for a service to also be a consumable with an alternative use than it's monetary intent.

Thus, back as square one.  Bitcoin is a currency, and only a currency, because it's intended to be used as such and cannot serve in any other capacity.

And the words money and currency are not interchangable.
3495  Other / Off-topic / Re: Libertarians Are Sociopaths on: October 22, 2011, 08:40:53 PM
Answer my question, Atlas.

e: based on my interactions with you in that other thread, there is no way in hell you're not Atlas

I doubt it.  Atlas was a hardcore objectivist.  Ayn Rand's root premise regarding charity was that it always did more harm than good, and that (as an atheist) she believed that the Judeo-Christian tradition of aiding the poor was BS.
3496  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Intellectual Property - In All Fairness! on: October 22, 2011, 08:32:27 PM


Even this! But how come the people who so obviously cannot be trusted to govern themselves, always want to govern me?


What do you get when you combine a sociopath and a narcisist?

A congressman.
3497  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Satoshi, Bitcoin Is a Commodity Not a Currency on: October 22, 2011, 07:22:06 PM
Can we relabel the front page of bitcoin to say crypto-commodity instead of crypto-currency? 
Bitcoin is digital gold that can be transfered on a network based on cryptographic principles. As the real gold it can be both commodity and currency. And like the real gold it can not be... illegal. It simply exists! How do you use it is your own business!

The day that I can take a bitcoin and hammer it into a virtual salad bowl is the day that I will agree that bitcoin is a commodity.
3498  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Intellectual Property - In All Fairness! on: October 22, 2011, 07:16:09 PM
I shall address the reasons why copyright exists in the Constitution, and why it's there in another post.

Cool! will you start another thread? This one is kind of bloated!


No, I won't.

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I'm pretty sure we are going to end up arguing on the same side. What industry is trying to do to copyright law is completely contrary to why people created it in the first place.


We likely will.  The great disagreement between sides in this thread thus far is the definition of property and whether or not 'products of the mind' qualify as property.  The framers of the US Constittution considered that question, and soundly rejected the notion that such 'products' were property of their creators, and with that the concept that copyright is a 'natural right' that can be inherited or even transfered.  However, they also recognized the social value in 'patronage' of artists and thinkers.  They encoded copyright into the constitution as an intentionally limited term monopoly on commercial copying of works in order to promote the arts, but this monopoly was not only limited to 15 years originally, it wasn't absolute either.  It didn't apply to the average man in any real sense, it applied to copying for personal gain.  Anyone not in the business of publication could copy any book that he could get his hands on, by hand or otherwise, for his own needs or the education of others, but just couldn't sell the end result for 15 years.  This kind of exception also applied to libraries and educational institutions, and largely still does.  A library can copy any work in their possession, no matter how they came to possess it (including inter-library loan) and lend it out to valid membership without risk of getting sideways with copyright laws.  I've seen it done with music CDs, as well as lending out of self-made copies of reference only books.  The key differences in approach are important, because in order to balance the net effect of copyright, the Constitution also explicitly established the Library of Congress, which has the privilage under the law to receive a copy of every published work without cost to itself, and to do with it whatever they wish.  This was to allow a citizen access to culturally significant works even if they didn't have the means, as well as provide for an archive of works.

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 However, at the time, and quite probably today, the original intent/consequences of copyright/patent/trademark laws was much better for *everyone* than the consequences of not having them at all.

Certainly at the time, but that's now debatable.  It would take quite a large hard drive, but it's now possible for an individual to own a computer with every book, movie and music ever produced in the US saved onto it's drive.  The Internet has largely made archives such as the Library of Congress redundant.  Also, the Constitution is a social contract that predates all of us.  Thomas Jefferson openly questioned whether it was even proper for one generation to establish such a social contract to be imposed upon following generations by default, and without their explicit consent, but he couldn't offer a better solution either.  And neither can I, since unlike our more anarchist membership, I recognize that there really are a small minority of the population that (even with a proper and functioning educational system) cannot be trusted to govern themselves, even though the vast majority of the population undoubtedly can do exactly that.
3499  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Intellectual Property - In All Fairness! on: October 22, 2011, 06:54:28 PM
...snip...

Nobody.  Who says that the elected represent society?  I don't.  You still haven't even tried to define 'society'.  Probably because you intuitively know that you can't define society in a way that is inclusive and still doesn't result in IP laws pitting one class of society against another.  We would hammer you down with that one too, no matter how you do it.  Because 'society' is an intangible concept; it is both real and false at the same time.  Certainly you know many people that you can identify with that you would consider part of your 'society', as well as many people that would completely reject being included by yourself.

And again, just because harm to one class within society can be demonstrated with the repeal of IP laws, does not mean that there is not harm caused to another class within society by the existance of IP laws.  I could sum it up in one sentence.

You are the 1%.

Guess who the 99% are?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society

That's society. I've linked it before.

Once you have a society, it will organise itself to prevent harm to its members.  Where there are conflicts, laws will be made to resolve them.  Ideally, the body that makes those laws should be elected so that as broad a range of people as possible get represented.  In the best systems, the "losers" will still have sets in the parliament so their opinions cannot be ignored.  I would content that the US where you live and the UK where I live have good examples of the best systems. 

If your issue is that the elected don't represent society, then you have a basic issue with democracy.  That's sort of off topic to this thread. 

I guess you could say that my issue is with representative democracy, but since this is a federated republic and not a democracy, is such a complaint unfair?
3500  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Intellectual Property - In All Fairness! on: October 22, 2011, 05:32:20 PM
Really, I was going to argue in favor of intellectual property laws.
But you guys are so bad at it, that I don't want to be associated with you!

It's not like the concept was imposed on people. We willingly wrote it into our constitution. Nobody will even acknowledge why. It was one of the most successful decisions "we the people" ever made. Now you are arguing to let Hollywood turn it into the one thing it was meant to prevent. I refuse to argue "with" you people. As such I will not argue "against" the libertarian views.


Ironicly, they do suck.  And it's not that I'm arguing that IP is akin to slavery.  I'm arguing that their support for IP laws are forced upon a wider public that did not agree to the terms; and like slavery and (more recently) segregation, society will eventually look upon such laws as fundamentally immoral favoritism of one group of people over another.

I shall address the reasons why copyright exists in the Constitution, and why it's there in another post.
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