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3601  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Who occupies the occupiers? on: October 13, 2011, 01:31:54 PM
They need a clear message and request soon.
I would prefer "No bail outs, bankers to the courts" over "people over profits, direct democracy".
I mean I'm not against direct democracy, but I can't take seriously a movement that just proposes "people over profits", because that sounds really abstract and will get nowhere.
It would be great if the message also included "end monopoly money" but I think that's not likely to happen.


The newest one I've heard is

"Separation of Corporation and State"

Wow, I can't even imagine how that is possible.
3602  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Intellectual Property - In All Fairness! on: October 13, 2011, 05:23:13 AM
Final question, do I still maintain property rights to my parcel of land if all the roads encircling my property are owned by some single individual?

Plenty of examples of this is real life. Just means you have an easment contract with the road owner, or own a helipad.

Two different questions (try not to confuse them):

So, when you own a dog, I assume that you own his skull and his brain inside the skull as well? Do you agree with this? By virtue of you owning the dog's brain, you then own the synaptic weights of the dog's brain as well? Correct?

Let's say I sell you a black cube, 3" on a side with 1/4" thick walls. Inside the black cube is a white cube, 2 1/2" on a side, with 1/4" thick walls. Although I have sold you the black cube, I have specifically stated that the sale does not grant you ownership of the white cube or its contents. However, by virtue of taking possession of the black cube, I give you permission to transport the white cube where you wish, but I do not give you permission to inspect the contents of the white cube, as it is my property. Do you have any disagreement with this?

I have effectively granted ownership to you only the mass and volume of the black 1/4" thick shell.

If I have agreed to these terms, then that's fine.  But I haven't.  I paid for the black box with the functionality of the white box, and did not agree to your terms concerning the white box.  Or, alternatively, I did but the guy I sold it to second hand certainly did not.  If I agreed not to resell it, or to only resale it under the same terms, then you have a contract beef with me; but not with the next owner.  Your business secret is gone.  IP is the attempt to assert control on the next guy, which is the problem because he had no arrangement with you and whatever agreement you had between yourself and me is our problem.  You can claim that the idea is your property all you like, but it's not.  It's just data, information that allows the black box device to operate in a particular manner.  If the next guy has the means to replicate the white box, you have no honest claim on what he does.  IP is all about creating a monopoly on that data, but it cannot exist without the force of government.  What you refuse to acknowledge is the gun that is in the room, and that it may grant you the ability to compel others to your will but it cannot grant you the right.
3603  Other / Politics & Society / Yeah, That's sure to work! on: October 13, 2011, 12:33:06 AM
http://www.sott.net/articles/show/236218-Cash-Transactions-Banned-by-Louisiana-Government-Takes-Private-Property-Without-Due-Process

I see a growing bitcoin niche in Louisiana.
3604  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Intellectual Property - In All Fairness! on: October 13, 2011, 12:24:36 AM
We are going about this all wrong...

"It is error alone which needs the support of government. Truth can stand by itself.” ~ Thomas Jefferson

Whenever speaking of free and voluntary societies I’m often asked, “What would we do about this”, or, “who would take care of that.”  I used to rattle off answers to these questions that were supplied by minds sharper than mine without even examining the questions. Then I realized I was focusing on the wrong part of the question. I was simply explaining how a different system would work, and hoping the ones asking the question would be won over with the clever and well thought out answers I had either memorized, or thought of myself. I have been trying to persuade people away from their system using the promise of a new and improved system. I realized I was no different than any other philosophical political peddler, and I would no longer tempt people with “our system.”

The truth is no one knows what “we” will do in a completely voluntary society, there is just no way of knowing. Any answer that is given to questions pertaining to the problems that individuals would face in such a society are purely speculation. I cannot tell you what we would do, I can only tell you what I would do. I would honor my contracts; I would defend myself; I would choose to help others in need; I would expect no one to support me; and I would plan accordingly. I want to be very clear here, I do not disagree with the theory that is being presented on how the logistics of society would be handled. There is no doubt that these organizations and such would arise and be needed in a voluntary society. I disagree with the fact that these theories are being pushed as answers before addressing the only real and true problem; collectivist thought. When those who are curious about voluntarism ask the “we” questions, the underlying collectivist philosophy is still there, and this is what needs to be addressed first before any practical questions can or should be answered. Otherwise, you are just trying to get them to abandon their system for your system."

http://zerogov.com/?p=2334

3605  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Intellectual Property - In All Fairness! on: October 12, 2011, 11:27:13 PM
 The Bible shows that Jesus was OK with slavery and the old Testament God sent the Jews out ethnic cleansing and taking slaves on a regular basis.  

The concept of prisoners of war as presented in the old Hebrew law, although commonly translated as slavery, isn't comparable to modern slavery.  First off, the Hebrew law makes it plain that such prisoners of war have rights under God that must be respected.  They also must be released after 7 years of faithful servitude, and offered a daughter of their 'master' in marriage.  Slavery of the modern context is highly dependent upon distinct class division, by race or otherwise, that prohibited intermarriage.  The offering of a daughter to the faithful servant undermined the cultural and racial distinctions between the conquering tribe and those of the losing tribe, which is the point of such marriage arrangements, until there is no discernable differences between one tribe and the other.  The Hebrew tribes didn't really have much of a concept of "owning" a slave like one owned a sheep, although this was common enough in nearby cultures such as the Egyptions.  Perhaps this was a reflex against the generations of true slavery in Egypt, perhaps just a means of preventing the Hebrews that came after from the temptations of claiming prisoners of war, for the risks of actually having to follow through with making this prisoner your next son-in-law.

Basicly, old Testament slavery was closer to indentured servitude, wherein some people were indentured because they lost a battle.
3606  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Intellectual Property - In All Fairness! on: October 12, 2011, 11:26:06 PM
 The Bible shows that Jesus was OK with slavery and the old Testament God sent the Jews out ethnic cleansing and taking slaves on a regular basis.  

The concept of prisoners of war as presented in the old Hebrew law, although commonly translated as slavery, isn't comparable to modern slavery.  First off, the Hebrew law makes it plain that such prisoners of war have rights under God that must be respected.  They also must be released after 7 years of faithful servitude, and offered a daughter of their 'master' in marriage.  Slavery of the modern context is highly dependent upon distinct class division, by race or otherwise, that prohibited intermarriage.  The offering of a daughter to the faithful servant undermined the cultural and racial distinctions between the conquering tribe and those of the losing tribe, which is the point of such marriage arrangements, until there is no discernable differences between one tribe and the other.  The Hebrew tribes didn't really have much of a concept of "owning" a slave like one owned a sheep, although this was common enough in nearby cultures such as the Egyptions.  Perhaps this was a reflex against the generations of true slavery in Egypt, perhaps just a means of preventing the Hebrews that came after from the temptations of claiming prisoners of war, for the risks of actually having to follow through with making this prisoner your next son-in-law.
3607  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Surely this isn't a 51% attack on bitcoins, right? on: October 12, 2011, 09:59:27 PM
Guys.  

the 'OTHER"  is obviously the downed pools hashing power.  everybody is still mining with them, it is just the front end that wont answer http calls.

No everyone isn't mining.

Many users of deepbit report connectivity issues and none of my miners can connect to slush.  It looks like some miners may still be able to connect but not all of them are.

Still other isn't necessarily bad.  My slush rigs switched to solo so they would be "other" too.

DOSing the major pools isn't what I think of as a "51% attack", but whatever.  Whether or not the pools are under attack or not is of little concern to myself.  The overall security of the network is not really under threat, since 10 Terahashes per second isn't a mark reachable by any known network or supercomputer.  This does highlight the risks to the bitcoin network at large associated with pool mining.  Concentrating the mining to a single server for the purpose of income stability also creates central points of failure/attack.  I don't mine in pools for this exact reason, and don't think anyone with any substantial hashing ability should do so.  10K small lights are harder to shoot out than a dozen really big ones.
3608  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Intellectual Property - In All Fairness! on: October 12, 2011, 09:52:36 PM

Since you're making bold assertions, morph the non aggression principle into an argument for slavery. I'll wait.

Damn, I wish I had thought of that one!
3609  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Intellectual Property - In All Fairness! on: October 12, 2011, 09:51:00 PM
Society: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society#In_political_science
Harm: isn't that what we discussed in the context of choosing between the right to copy movies and the ability to have a decent supply of movies?

As we proved, society has a right to prevent harm.  If society determines that it wants a decent supply of movies more than it wants the right to copy movies, IP laws are needed. 

Unless you have some logical objection, I think that's the topic done.

"As we proved, society has a right to prevent harm. If society determines that it wants a decent supply of cotton more than it wants slaves to be free, slavery is needed."

I am not in any sense saying that IP is equivalent to or as great an evil as slavery. I am merely pointing out that one of the reasons I find your argument disagreeable is that it equally serves as a justification for slavery. Society used to have laws saying that owning human beings was an acceptable and normal practice. According to you, rights derive from laws. Thus, it was every man's right to own a human slave.

So yes, this topic is done, because you can't come up with an argument for IP that isn't also an argument for slavery, and I think that is fucking sick.

Everything is capable of morphing into an argument for slavery.  That doesn't really matter - slavery is not on the agenda here.

Actually, it is.  Perhaps if you had bothered to read the well thought out and written blog post that was presented to yourself, you'd now see the association.  The differences between a "positive right" and a slavemaster's priviliages are simply a matter of degree.  It is your claim that you have a right to an income at my expense based solely on my possession of a particular set of data that you may have created.  Very recently a Democratic candidate for the US Senate was quoted as saying that no one gets rich alone, which is actually true.  But it is at least as accurate to say that no one makes art alone, or science, or anything else.  Your programs would be useless without the inventors who applied the sciences of earlier peers to build computers.  Do they have a claim on your income as well?  How far down the rabbit hole does this lead?
3610  Economy / Goods / Re: Calling Hollanders! on: October 12, 2011, 09:02:43 PM
Post a picture of the product please.

http://www.amazon.com/H-J-Wijsman-Canned-Butter-Holland/dp/B005IPV42U/ref=sr_1_16?ie=UTF8&qid=1318453289&sr=8-16
3611  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Intellectual Property - In All Fairness! on: October 12, 2011, 08:42:28 PM
Once upon a time, dozens of little girls said that dozens of adults in the area were bewitching them in their sleep.  The town's elders and local judge felt the same way you do.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem_witch_trials

Careful. Next he'll be causing you of defending pedos/rapists and blaming the victims.


Not to mention the obvious bias I hold against Wiccans, Druids and other related Anglosaxon pagen religions.
3612  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Surely this isn't a 51% attack on bitcoins, right? on: October 12, 2011, 08:40:15 PM
Deepbit is down along with other pools (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3889.msg570739#msg570739). As of right now, the chart shows over 50% of all mining power is in the 'other' category. See here: http://bitcoinwatch.com
Nobody is forking the chain are they?

No.  The 'other' category is all the blocks produced by miners not known to be associated to a pool, including all of the pools that bitcoinwatch is not yet aware of.  It doesn't, in fact, mean anything at all other than that more than 50% of the current hashing power is anonymous.
3613  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Intellectual Property - In All Fairness! on: October 12, 2011, 08:34:08 PM
...snip...
That is the issue, because if there is absolutely no harm in it, then why stop it? And if there is harm in it, then probably yes, intervene. Thus the answer depends on you answering what you believe the harm in that situation to be.

And by the way, neither you nor society can answer your question decisively (14? 16? 18? Marriage?) so why are you expecting me to?
But, again, why do you believe sex is harmful?

So you accept that society has a right to intervene to prevent harm.

No, I do not. I never even implied such. Note "probably" is not "yes" and note that

Why do you believe sex is harmful?

Answered earlier.  If 10s of 1000s of people say that giving head to priests as kids damaged them, I'm inclined to take their word on it.

Once upon a time, dozens of little girls said that dozens of adults in the area were bewitching them in their sleep.  The town's elders and local judge felt the same way you do.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem_witch_trials
3614  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Intellectual Property - In All Fairness! on: October 12, 2011, 08:30:31 PM

I have my own thoughts on this, but I need to hear yours. So, why is sex harmful?

Mostly likely a latent cultural influence of Anglican moral code.  I'm sure he'll see the error of his ways once Sharia law dominates in the UK.  After all, The Prophet married an eight year old in his 50's; what right does he have to intervene when the law says that a man of the Koran can take the child daughter of an infidel such as himself?


(I have no doubt that the sarcasm will be entirely missed by Hawker, the cognative dissonance must be terrrible.)
3615  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Intellectual Property - In All Fairness! on: October 12, 2011, 08:24:36 PM

EDIT: Link for Moonshadow - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society

That's not an answer, it's a link.  Even if you believed it word for word, there are at least three different definitions of that one term in that article, which are all loose definitions and generally mutuall exclusive.  If society gets to decide, how does one decide what society actually is?  If it is the voting public, then children are not part of society?  If it is parliment, then are you part of society?  If society is defined by established national borders, do you still think you have a valid opinion about anything in mine?
3616  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Intellectual Property - In All Fairness! on: October 12, 2011, 08:14:07 PM
Hawker, please define the term "society" in this context.
3617  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Intellectual Property - In All Fairness! on: October 12, 2011, 08:12:03 PM
In the UK, parliament gets to decide.  I have no idea how its done where you live.  Hopefully its a democracy so you get a say in these things.

Ah, so it's not "society", but the State. Hmm... I live in the U.S. and I'm pretty sure it's not a democracy, but a constitutional republic.

It's ok, I realize that to you "democracy" is just a magic word that invokes rainbows and unicorns.

The United Kingdom isn't a democracy either, it's a parlimentary republic superimposed upon a constitutional monarchy.  And it's still a constitutional monarchy.  After all, where do the royals get their income?
3618  Other / Politics & Society / Re: The Liberal "Grown-up" Mentality on: October 12, 2011, 08:08:56 PM
"I'm not young enough to know everything"
   -- Oscar Wilde

Then they pull this one. Every once awhile when I'm making a point, somebody goes out and claims,

"You're only 17! You don't know everything!"

Have I ever made that claim and what puts you above me? Why does your age make you so much wise? I am certain of my own ignorance and I am also certain that old people can be pretty damn ignorant.

The point is that with youth comes certainty. When I was young I was sure of many things. Right and wrong. Black and white. Good and evil. This is very obvious in 6-8 year olds. And well documented in many psychology books.

Yes, and so is projection. 
3619  Other / Politics & Society / Re: The Liberal "Grown-up" Mentality on: October 12, 2011, 07:26:15 PM
Quote
"Get away from the hot stove"

"NO!"

"Get away from the hot stove, now"

"I don't wanna!  Why should I!? You don't ever let me have any fun"

"YOU'LL UNDERSTAND WHEN YOU'RE OLDER, GET AWAY FROM THE FUCKING STOVE NOW"


Certainly you aren't suggesting that the 'grown up' is losing that argument. The 'you'll understand when you're a grown up' line only comes up when it's obvious the person you're talking too doesn't have adequate life experience to understand certain concepts.

Point is that you say, "because it's hot and you'll burn yourself," or "I've done it before, got hurt, and want you to learn from my mistakes." The "you'll understand when you're older" is a stupid copout for someone who doesn't know the answer, and I am VERY lucky that my parents never used that line on me for any topics.

Find me a kid who readily listens to reason on the first try.

They don't exist.

Mine did, at three.  "Stay away from that blue flame, son, it's hot and it will hurt you."  Worked fine the first time. 
3620  Other / Politics & Society / Re: The Liberal "Grown-up" Mentality on: October 12, 2011, 06:47:33 PM
In every argument, somebody comes in and claims:

"Oh, Immanuel, once you grow up and do actual work you'll begin to think like me and support government programs and the status quo."

As I am sure that you are already aware, this is what grown ups say to teens when they are losing an argument due to being unable to respond to a rational and thought out position.  They likely think that you are nieve, but if you asked them if they believed as you do when they were your age, they will invariablely say no.
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