Poor maxmint. He's already really busy with all your trades. Sorry maxmint - feel free to say no!
If he can't do this, it will be time constraints, not intelligence constraints.
JR - Max rose up above and beyond to make a market for us all. Our tips were good, but definitely did not adequately compensate him. If there is another pool of MSC to be distributed for the good of the project, I'd vote that Max takes a few of those because on his own volition he did make an interesting trading desk which works pretty well. This is a great benefit to us all until the real exchange is operational. Those tips don't come close to what it is worth to us all to have a nice functional market today. I'd be very disappointed if you didn't agree with me that his effort is worth about 100 - 200 MSC. I hope the promotional pool isn't the only remaining give-a-way coin you've got. Is it? For instance we could give out MSC to whoever comes up with the best phrase to describe MSC. We could give out MSC to whomever comes up with a funny meme and so on. I am certain you won't be running this campaign. Like I said before, I have 30 MSC and I have some time this week to distribute it. I don't think I should necessarily run the campaign but I'd be willing to contribute to it. Do you want to run it? Or are you just trying to keep me from running it? |
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I vote for Maxmint handling the giveaway!
And his must hire an assistant for the escrow and start charging standard fees.
I agree. If one person must do the giveaway then Maxmint is the most trusted person under than JR. But if Maxmint does not have the time then we can still do the giveaway. For instance we could give out MSC to whoever comes up with the best phrase to describe MSC. We could give out MSC to whomever comes up with a funny meme and so on.
True enough. But he didn't deserve the punishment of running a manual exchange either and he did a hell of a good job with that. This guy: buymastercoin.com had big ambition to make a market and produced nothing. Max now has a track record.
btw, have you noticed that when max is active, the order book and message flow and completed transactions naturally take off and go crazy - and the minute max leaves, the market dies until tomorrow? The market is really fun and dynamic, so long as Max is hooking everyone up with transaction help. Once that guy goes to sleep - nothing gets done.
That is why I said we should have more than one person do it. If its a very time consuming job then when one person goes to sleep or takes a break another can fill in. It might be chaotic but it would work and probably wouldn't be too difficult. |
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Perhaps the best model would be for me to reimburse people who run the giveaway out of their own pockets, plus 10% for their trouble.
I'd suggest that the standard payout be 10x smaller now, since MSC is ~10x more valuable.
I think this is the best way to go about it. I have 30 MSC which I could use for this purpose provided I would be reimbursed. I'm sure there are others here who have some too. lol! Sure, so now Luckybit gives 30 MSC to his friend for wearing a sandwich board on the streetside for 10 mintues and claims back 33 MSC from JR!! I am not sure how this model is going to help the quality of the exposure gained. Are you really that paranoid? How exactly would I even do that? If I give out my 30 MSC it will be to random people who post on the thread. You'd be able to see it all on the blockchain. |
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Why are you so against an MSC faucet?
Because I am not a communist who favors redistribution of wealth to the disadvantage of those who diligently invested in good time. I'm not a communist either. But who am I supposed to trade with on that decentralized exchange if I can't find anyone I know on there? So everyone has to be on there. Why is it that you have to find someone you know? Just buy the next offer at market prices. Who cares if you know the guy. The price is the price that one is willing to part with the MSC. Its called a 'free market'. Because not everything you buy is something which you can buy without any risk. If you buy stock in something then you probably should know about who the issuer is. Like if you buy Asicminer you should know it's from Friedcat. |
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Perhaps the best model would be for me to reimburse people who run the giveaway out of their own pockets, plus 10% for their trouble.
I'd suggest that the standard payout be 10x smaller now, since MSC is ~10x more valuable.
I think this is the best way to go about it. I have 30 MSC which I could use for this purpose provided I would be reimbursed. I'm sure there are others here who have some too. I'm not a communist either. But who am I supposed to trade with on that decentralized exchange if I can't find anyone I know on there?
So everyone has to be on there.
You don't have to know people on the distributed exchange to use it. It's trust-free  Well, I guess you have to trust the protocol . . . Now entirely trust free. If I'm buying stock in something then it's important to know who is running the business. For other things maybe it doesn't matter who is on the other end of the deal. |
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Why are you so against an MSC faucet?
Because I am not a communist who favors redistribution of wealth to the disadvantage of those who diligently invested in good time. I'm not a communist either. But who am I supposed to trade with on that decentralized exchange if I can't find anyone I know on there? So everyone has to be on there. |
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Once again, who is we? All 100 of us? I want it to be 5000 of us at least.
What good is it when we have a decentralized exchange if it's only 100 of us using it? We want thousands of people with MSC trying it out making trades because that is where long term value comes from.
You don't understand what you are talking about. If only 100 own and trade MSC - that is fine. That doesn't limit the benefit it will bring to the people. One of those MSC owners will take a MSC and convert it to 1Million shares of company stock and people can buy and sell those shares. MSC ownership can be limited to 100 people while the functionality of the protocol can be enjoyed by millions. It is not necessary that millions become owners of MSC in order for its value to rise. You are not very bright are you? I can turn over that 394 MSC. I gave bits of MSC out for people who wrote blog posts, changed their forum signature, or otherwise made some good-faith effort to promote the project. I would suggest continuing the model where you have to at least tweet about MSC to qualify for some. Pure, unmitigated genius. Full stop. I would volunteer but I don't even know how to send Mastercoins out yet. Please, don't volunteer to do anything. Are you trolling? Anyway I'll do it as soon as I get the hang of Mastercoin advisor which I've never used. If you are more experienced with sending out Mastercoins and would like to do it go ahead and volunteer. Why are you so against an MSC faucet? |
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In fact, I DID do a giveaway thread during the month of August when MSC was first on sale: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=272577.0I actually have some left over from that giveaway, which I previously said I would split up among the top promoters. I'd still like to give some money to the top promoters from the first giveaway, but the value of MSC has risen a lot since then, so I think it's fair to reserve most of it for another giveaway. There's still 394.84328263 MSC earmarked for giveaway here: http://mastercoin-explorer.com/addresses/15og4WXZPwkMnnsb3dj6HqgTUfcRLx4J9bRunning the giveaway took a LOT of my time, but if someone trustworthy wants to get it running again, I can turn over that 394 MSC. I gave bits of MSC out for people who wrote blog posts, changed their forum signature, or otherwise made some good-faith effort to promote the project. I would suggest continuing the model where you have to at least tweet about MSC to qualify for some. Given how much time it took me to run the giveaway, I think it would be fair to have the person running it take a bit off the top for themselves. Maybe 10%? If someone wants to run this, let me know. I'm a little paranoid about trusting someone with that much money. I'd probably not give it all to you at once, no matter how trustworthy you are Any volunteers? I would volunteer but I don't even know how to send Mastercoins out yet. How about you divide the responsibility among a few trusted people so that one of them can take a break and the other can resume? |
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At some point they are probably going to dump their stash. The way to dampen the effect is to distribute the coins more widely.
Don't dampen the effect. Let the effect play out. If the dump and the true value is high, we all get a discount. Buying BTC at 110 after Silk Road got busted was cool. Selling today might be cool. It's for the buyers and sellers to decide - not some moderator. Why do people oppose swings? They are needed and important. Let free markets run and stop trying to control them. Free trading is good, not bad. Once again, who is we? All 100 of us? I want it to be 5000 of us at least. What good is it when we have a decentralized exchange if it's only 100 of us using it? We want thousands of people with MSC trying it out making trades because that is where long term value comes from. |
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Another solution, instead of selling MSC it might be a good idea to start up a MSC faucet and give out small quantities like (random lottery amounts .1 , .2 , .3 ->.9 ) of MSC for free to people. This way the people who already purchased MSC wont suffer as much but MSC would also be distributed a bit more.
Oh God - why can't people just leave free markets alone? Why do you feel the need to control and decide what other people perceive the value to be? Free markets take care of themselves. Idiots should get burned. That is the way it works. Don't mess with free trading to make rules that artificially control the price movements. Let the movements go as the information is processed by the masses - rather than on the information you (or one single guy) thinks is important. That's not what a MSC faucet would do. The purpose of a MSC faucet would be to preserve the long term value of MSC and the MSC protocol. If you're just in it for short term profit now would be a good time to sell. Mastercoin is only useful to us as a protocol if as many people use it as possible. |
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A faucet would be a great thing. I think the current price spike is mostly because more and more people are learning about Mastercoin and are afraid they could miss the boat. So it would be great if they could get their hands on a small amount of Mastercoins.
JR could set up a giveaway thread, similar to the Ripple giveaway thread. This would bring Mastecoins to the masses and would bring more attention to the project at the same time. I'd be willing to donate some of my Mastercoins to this.
+1 I vote on the faucet idea. I don't favor that kind of regulation either and I think a faucet would work just fine. It would build hype for the launch of the decentralized exchange, increase interest in Mastercoin, and give people a reason to use it. At some point they are probably going to dump their stash. The way to dampen the effect is to distribute the coins more widely. |
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I keep thinking that I need to find a way to throw some water on this fire before someone gets hurt, but the only way I can really do that is to sell some MSC, which I don't want to do at these prices I hope everybody isn't buying now with the intention of selling when the distributed exchange opens. If so, that very positive news for MSC could actually be correlated with a price drop! Be careful folks. Is there a way to encourage a more diverse group of people to buy smaller proportions of MSC? I saw Realsolid do a thing where he limited the amount of Feeshares that anyone could buy at one time. I think that is something maxmint could do to put the fire out a bit. I was trying to organize crowdfunding for Netcoin and the plan was to do something similar. So basically if the orders are limited to being below a certain BTC amount per order then you'd have a more widely distributed MSC. We want as many people holding MSC as possible. So Luckybit wants to buy MSC and the limit anyone can spend on MSC for the week is 10BTC worth, this would limit Luckybit to 10BTC worth of MSC no matter how much MSC is going for at the time. This prevents Luckybit from being able to buy enough MSC to dump it later or from spending his life savings on it. Workable solution? Another solution, instead of selling MSC it might be a good idea to start up a MSC faucet and give out small quantities like (random lottery amounts .1 , .2 , .3 ->.9 ) of MSC for free to people. This way the people who already purchased MSC wont suffer as much but MSC would also be distributed a bit more. Who wants to volunteer to start the first MSC faucet to put this fire out? I don't have enough MSC to do it. the only way I can really do that is to sell some MSC, which I don't want to do at these prices See above: That was a very big mistake. Might as well just throw 100 Euro notes in the toilet.
Open markets are good. Market manipulation almost never goes well or produces the intended result. We don't need no water, let the mother F-er burn. I think it's in all of our collective best interest if as many people as possible are holding MSC. If that means starting an MSC faucet thread then we could use that thread to spread MSC around so that more people have a stake. The other thing is we could do is limit the amount of MSC that any single individual could buy and prioritize new purchasers so as to reduce the ability of any individual to dump MSC upon the launch of the decentralized exchange. If thousands of people have 1-2 MSC that is far better than if hundreds of people have 100-200 MSC. |
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Quick question - how the heck are MSC anonymous? In 2 words if you know (not to hijack here).
Can't understand it though I tried...
I suppose if you buy MSC with cash it's about as anonymous as it can get. |
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I'm not sure yet, but I may want to sell 1000+ BTC in the next couple of weeks. If you can do this more cheaply than Bitstamp, PM me. Large US wire transfers (or similar) only. No ACH, PayPal, Western Union, etc.
Uh oh, this is a bad sign. Is something going on that you want to tell us about? |
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Excellent job! You deserve a tip. That price chart looks exponential. It reminds me of how Bitcoin looked when it went from $15 to $266. The good news is we are still in the very beginning of the rise so there is potentially a lot of profit for us before it collapses down a bit. The truth is, there hasn't been any news and there isn't even an easy way to buy Mastercoins in bulk yet so we should be very happy about the chart and look at it as a speculative success. At the same time we have to understand that the true value of Mastercoin is unknown and invest only what we are willing to lose. Do not panic sell in a crash if it does come, buy Mastercoins because you actually want to use them in the protocol. Determine how useful you think Mastercoins could be to Bitcoin owners. Consider that there are 31 Bitcoins for every Mastercoin and don't be greedy. If you have all the Mastercoins you think you'll ever need then it's okay to sell some of them for cheaper to cover your initial investment and put your level of risk to 0. |
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there have been sent approx. 5000 btc to the Exodus address, each equals 100 MSC + average %20 bonus which should equal to 600K MSC.
To this you can add the future 10% that will be added gradually which will be finally about 660K MSC (which shall be less since 60% of bitcoins arrived in the last week that only had 10% bonus reward)
May you explain us how did you arrive to 50M MSC number???
Also where did you buy your logic from!?
5000*100=500K my mistake!! So it would be 660K all, thanks for that! So my calculations were far off, nevermind! I tried to base them on the total numbers of MSC vs that of BTC... EDIT: MSC would be around 7.5 times less than BTC hmmm... Now you see where I got my 2 BTC per Mastercoin price from. I calculated the total number of Mastercoins which will ever exist against the total number of Bitcoins. I also considered factors such as the chance of Bitcoins being confiscated. I think Bitcoins will be confiscated far more often than Mastercoins. There are unknown variables of course and this is still the speculation phase. Until we have a working exchange and until we see progress on the protocol itself the price I have in the sell order is based on what I believe Mastercoin will be worth just prior to a completed decentralized exchange. I'd be willing to sell for a range between 1.5 and 2 BTC per Mastercoin. Any less and I'll just wait until it the decentralized exchange is working. Just a suggestion to MSC holders. There is no benefit of pumping the price at this point when the price is based on pure speculation and future hopes. Actually selling MSC at a fair price will increase the amount of people involved in the Mastercoin ecosystem and benefits the project much more.
True. I had many offers in the 0.12-0.13 range but I decided to sell on 0.1 instead! We have to see more long term - we need many people in this in no bubble prices.. Mastercoins are divisible so we can sell cheaper if we sell in smaller portions of 0.1 for instance. I don't think there will be a problem with demand if it works. I do agree right now it's in demand because a lot of people need a decentralized exchange, and a lot of people are looking at factors like the amount of development/contest resources, the level of marketing (the fact that Mastercoin has websites already says a lot about it), the particular people involved with it and their level of talent, all of that goes into setting the price. But the value isn't the same as the price. Right now it's got no value yet because we cannot do anything with it so the price is based on a prediction of what we expect the value to be once completed. We are basically buying at these prices because we believe in the developers and in JR to follow through and meet our expectations. This thread is not for speculation, it is just for bid and ask placement, so please transfer your speculating games and thoughts to another one more related. Or perhaps you can open one new thread yourself and speak with people with the same morality over there!
After Mastercoin has value we will need a speculation thread. Right now it's too soon to create one. The time to create a speculation thread is when the first working Mastercoin client is released. Until we have a wallet which works, there is no way to predict the demand until we can figure out how many people are downloading that wallet. The next thing to do would be to see what happens once we have a decentralized exchange with smart property. I think that will be the big coming out event. |
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Say for instance you wanted to do box office futures on Colored Coin, how would you do it in a completely decentralized manner? You say it's possible so please describe?
I don't think that this thread is a place to discuss colored coins. If you want to discuss them, please go into one of colored coins threads, to a mailing list or to a subreddit ( http://www.reddit.com/r/coloredcoin ). I will give you a very brief answer here (it is about prediction market when people can be on YES/NO outcomes; futures market can be implemented in a similar way): 1. we need to create colored coins which will be used as a medium of exchange on a prediction market 2. to enter a bet one needs to create a transaction of a special form (which includes information about the bet) 3. coins which represent bets can be traded on the market 4. when outcome is known, settlement can be made there are two ways to do it: 5. one is to buy coins which bet on the opposite outcome, and having coins which bet both on YES and NO one can cancel a bet and get normal coins 6. the other is to force settlement with a specific outcome, in that case this settlement is recorded in coin's history and can be seen by anyone 7. if someone forces a wrong outcome, other market participants consider his coin worthless 8. so there is a strong incentive to remain honest and record only correct outcomes This is quite a bit more messy than a centralized prediction market, but can work, I guess... And this is the problem with Colored Coins. It's far more complicated than Mastercoin. I think most people can figure out how Mastercoin works with escrows controlling the supply of the user currencies. I think people are seeing my opinions and thinking I prefer Mastercoin because it will make people rich. People are going to get rich from Colored Coin or Bitshares so that doesn't matter much. What matters is that Mastercoin is very easy to understand, elegant, easy to explain. Bitshares is a similar design to Mastercoin and also easy to explain. Colored Coin is something that every time I ask about it I get different explanations for how it's supposed to work. It's abstract to the point that only the developers seem to truly understand how it works and that is one of the reasons why I don't have a lot of faith in it. From the description you give it does seem like Colored Coin can allow for these sorts of transactions, but it's a lot more complicated, and complexity is a bad thing when you're trying to reduce risks and make things secure. There are competitors such as Bitshares and Hops, and in either of those cases I have a better idea of how they work than Colored Coin. The only problem I can see with Colored Coin is that it would have to get it's value from the currency it's running on top of. Bitshares can be mined so it can get it's value independent from Bitcoin. Mastercoins can be bought with Litecoins, the USD or you can work for them once again giving them independent value from the currency it runs on top of. I think isolation improves security because it removes a single point of failure. If Bitcoin were to collapse in price due to speculative attack and everyone has to use Bitcoins to deal with Colored Coins then that could be a problem. But perhaps my understanding of Colored Coin is insufficient. If I could turn my Litecoins into Colored Coins and interact with the Bitcoin market so that our implementations are interchangeable then that would make it very useful to me. I would have to view Colored Coin as a language to communicate value between different cryptocurrencies and clients and if that functionality doesn't exist it needs to because there will be several different Colored Coin implementations causing confusion. References Colored Coin(BitcoinX)https://docs.google.com/document/d/1AnkP_cVZTCMLIzw4DvsW6M8Q2JC0lIzrTLuoWu2z1BE/editGenesis transaction
The idea is to use a Genesis transaction to create a new currency
The genesis transaction has a certain amount of bitcoin that was transferred in it. this BTC amount will be used to create all the value in the currency.
The currency ancestor is the address the amount was transferred to and will control the initial distribution of the currency
Thin “currency clients” are then created with a special method for calculating balance.
first we find all the transaction that their last address is the client address. we take each of these transaction and crawl the block chain to see if this transaction was generated from the genesis transaction.
if so we multiply the transaction amount with the initial split* and we get the user balance
* initial split: is the decision to split 0.00001BTC = 1 Currency (example)
the distribution of this “currency client” then creates a community around a specific Genesis transaction. this creates a separation of those “Colored bitcoins” from all other bitcoin and therefore the mini-eco-system can have a floating value on top of the bitcoin network utilizing its infrastructure
Bitshareshttp://static.squarespace.com/static/51df1ba4e4b08840dcfce197/t/5212ca63e4b0348bfd2276c6/1376963171729/BitShares%20White%20Paper%20(2).pdfCreating BitUSD
BitUSD is a BitSharesderived BitAsset that must be created against a valid bid and post
collateral in BitShares equal to the value of bid. If the bid is accepted, the collateral and
purchase price are held by the network until the BitUSD is redeemed by repurchasing it. The
block chain will then redirect the dividends of the collateral to all BitUSD holders. BitUSD is
entirely fungible and all dividends from all BitShares backing all BitUSD are pooled to determine
the dividends (in BitShares) paid to the holders of BitUSD.
The BitShares backing the BitUSD may be spent in two ways:
6 of 27BitShares
A PeertoPeer Polymorphic Digital Asset Exchange (P2PPDAE)
1. by providing BitUSD as input to the transaction and redeeming it.
2. by a miner who enforces a margin call when the value of the backing falls to less than
150% of the value of the BitUSD.
Margin calls are enforced by the miners when they put together a block. When a miner enforces
a margin call, he uses the backing BitShares to repurchase the BitUSD and thereby redeeming
it. After BitUSD is redeemed it no longer exists. Any leftover collateral is sent to an address
owned by the short position (not kept by the miner).
If the miner is forced to exercise a margin call, the network assess a 5% transaction fee in order
to motivate market participants to proactively manage their margin. If the market moves so fast
that the margin is insufficient, then the market price of the BitUSD may fall slightly below parity
for a short time if there is insufficient demand for BitUSD relative to the supply of sellers.
Mastercoinhttps://e33ec872-a-62cb3a1a-s-sites.googlegroups.com/site/2ndbtcwpaper/MasterCoin%20Specification%201.1.pdfThe escrow fund operates like a battery on the power grid, charging when there is excess energy then
discharging where there isn't enough. When there are too few GoldCoins (GoldCoin price is too high),
the escrow fund releases new GoldCoins, and the escrow-battery “charges” by holding MasterCoins in
escrow. When there are too many GoldCoins (GoldCoin price is too low), the escrow fund purchases
some of the excess GoldCoins, thereby “discharging” the escrow-battery as it releases the stored
MasterCoins.
Hopshttps://anonfiles.com/file/14d9ed0ebc60f2fc30bc596c49e7b61fIncentives for PoS Miners
The value of hopdollars and hopbits is backed by an option to convert these
bonds into hops at a conversion rate determined 4 to 7 months in the future. The
conversion rate for both bonds adjusts so that the market prices of hopdollars
and hopbits track the market prices of real world USD and bitcoin. Adjustments
to the conversion rate are based on data input into the blockchain. PoS miners
submit these data as they mine blocks. PoS miners are expected to report
accurate data due to their ...nancial stake in Hop’s success. By submitting
accurate data PoS miners can ensure that 1 hopdollar trades for 1 USD and 1
hopbit trades for 1 bitcoin except under extraordinary circumstances.
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Same place as MC. Their value is from their usefulness. You don't HAVE to add another currency on top of another one for it to be useful. Yes, no one will INVEST in CC because they are just tiny bits of BTC. It's not meant for making people rich. It's an add on for BTC, making BTC more valuable.
All value comes from human beings, not from "pure math" or "pure code". Math is beautiful, but the value of beauty comes directly from the minds of human beings. This means all technical systems such as Bitcoin gain their value from the psychological properties of human beings. Gold is valuable because people like shiny things. Sugar is valuable because people like sweet things. You cannot separate psychology from value. There are a lot of rich people who need a place to park their money and collect interest. Mastercoin price isn't the same as the value. The Mastercoin protocol isn't valuable for anything today but the price is going up entirely on speculation on how much value it would have once it's finished. That is speculation and we all agree that currently Mastercoin price is based on speculation, but once they have more of the protocol implemented and we can use it then it wont be speculation anymore and it will be useful. In the competition of which technology is more useful, if a technology allows you to collect interest it's more useful than a technology which merely holds your money in escrow for example. If a technology allows people to get rich it will be considered more useful to them than a technology which doesn't do that because greed (psychology) is the driver of the stock market, derivatives, and all of that. So if greedy people have a choice where to put their money they'll put their wealth in the place where their wealth is most likely to increase. This is why I make a point that rich people will need a place to park their wealth and put their wealth to use for them and honestly the whole economy needs that in order to grow in general. If there are no profits there wont be any spending. That makes no sense whatsoever. If anything Mastercoin is more a speculative currency than Bitcoin. Mastercoins aren't tied to anything. Just like Bitcoins. Their value goes up and down.
Mastercoin is not a currency. Right now it's more speculative because the protocol isn't built yet so I wont argue that the current price is entirely based around speculation. I do not believe the current price is a bubble though because there has been consistent progress and right now the consensus is that it is likely going to work. When the consensus changes to it's not likely to work then the price will get cheaper. But once it does work it will not be speculation anymore and that is when it becomes more useful than Bitcoin. Once again Mastercoin isn't a currency, Bitcoin is a currency. |
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If you have one proto share then you will be given 1 bitshares in genesis block automatically
Proto shares will live on as the basis of comodityShares and then techShares and every bitshares based chain released in the future.
Any idea of what sort of hardware is needed to mine protoshares? What exactly is proof of momentum friendly? |
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So what backs Colored Coins? I don't understand.
Colored coins is just a system for tracking ownership of tokens, what these tokens mean is a different matter. For example, a company can declare that the tokens they have issued represent ownership of stock of that company, and owners of these tokens will receive dividends. Or somebody might issue tokens which represent ownership of physical gold. There are many others potential uses... In any case, it is more like a toolkit for ownership tracking, rather than a particular brand of currency. (Of course, it is also possible to issue tokens which aren't backed by promise of any kind, but just exist like Bitcoin and Mastercoin do.) Say for instance you wanted to do box office futures on Colored Coin, how would you do it in a completely decentralized manner? You say it's possible so please describe? |
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