?
bASIC and Avalon also employ third parties for designs as does BFL. So it is not a 1 or 2 person operation. The shipping side of each company IS a different story between the three companies. These three are not of the same size.

Avalon has gone on record to state that they don't want to ship huge lots like BFL in their first run. I forget exactly what the reasoning was.

bASIC's Tom has stated that he doesn't have the manpower but will hire IT temps to fill in as necessary.

But I totally agree, when there are alot of mouths to feed with cash, there will always be problems with cash flow if a company makes the wrong decisions.

Question:

If you are paid in BTC (virtual funds), are any consumer protection laws even applicable for a cryptocurrency?

I know it is a question out of left field, and I am not implying anything, but we should start a thread to discuss what can be enforced if you use a cryptocurrency.

Reference: https://forums.butterflylabs.com/showthread.php/251-More-Jalapeno-Pictures-amp-Shipping-Update/page18

Eryngi (like Bogart) asks the right questions.

It seems to me like it is what eryngi points out (IMO), that there is possibly a different reason for leaving customers in the dark as to what is potentially being played out.

Indeed, it is very smart of eryngi to pull out. It would be dumb if he did stay despite strong indicators as to what the game may be behind the scenes. I think Sharky does not really understand (at all) what eryngi is going on about. If he did, he would be more concerned at the possibilities.

There are two kinds of customers in this case, those who are worried but their confidence is based on promises. Then there are those who understand what the subtle hints indicate and are worried enough to jump ship.

In this case, eryngi has decided that jumping ship was appropriate considering what all the indicators led him to believe. (Think of it like the Titanic just after it hits the iceberg) He has cashed out based on that information (and apparent confirmations/denials) of a situation. There are other people whom don't know what any of it means or don't know any better and will stay until it is very evident there are problems. (The Titanic begins to tilt and enters the waters length wise?)

The company has stated that refunds are currently a trickle, and they are honoring those whom wish to jump ship early. Though they said if it becomes an administration issue with too many refunds they will close that door. They also state that they have not used any pre-order funds. So that means every penny is safe. (Why accept pre-orders though if you can sell the product once it is ready for shipment if that is the case?Why not a standard pre-order down payment if you only wished to know how the market demand was for your product?)

Anyway, at the first signs of ice on deck, jump ship. Never believe that there are enough lifeboats or that this ship cannot sink. That is my personal opinion.

I just wonder if they will allow eryngi words to persist and sink in for others after eryngi's  refund? I am inclined to believe they will wipe it out.

I guessed right, 65nm, big surprise?

The disturbing thing is they are using Full Custom ASIC, at 65nm process node, at 60watts. (@60GH/s)

The competitor (bASIC) is using structured ASIC I believe and is below the 100watt mark on a 90nm process node. (@54GH/s)
Some leaked pictures show that it might be at around 58 to 60watts. But the caption was removed so it is hard to figure out if true or not.

Either way, for a smaller process node...not as efficient as it should be. Perhaps I am missing something....?

Who said I was surprised by anything?

I am just pointing this out. People clearly think all the Pre-orders will ship at the same time. There hasn't been any indication to support that. This is a post to inform others of that reality.

No, none. Already read all the pages.

I think there was a SUSFU/FUBar (or perhaps even a TARFU) moment when people realized it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_slang_terms#FUBAR

A BOHICA may soon follow.

Posted under Fair Use for the purposes of disussion.

Courtesy of: https://forums.butterflylabs.com/showthread.php/331-manufacturing-process-question



Conclusion? There may be significant delays. [speculation and personal opinion]

+1

Tom just let this out of the bag....great news.

Seems that it will be under 100 watts.

[Speculation]

From the latest report it seems like BFL will be using their in-house pick and place to possibly populate the BGA's. When (another member) asked about this, they gave a very vague "either and neither". (Neither confirm nor deny)

It seems like scenario 2 is the valid scenario.

If the device isn't operated properly, it may very well cause irregularities in-house final assembly.

Assuming I am wrong and Scenario 1 is correct, the 25 days wait time is unrealistic (IMO).

-----------------------------
I have to commend Bogart for asking the right questions. He just needs to actively nail them down on a few points and the likelihood of the schedule can be weighed against those answers to his questions.

Bogart also asked how much volume BFL will ship other than the 1/3 answer. He wasn't given (IMO) a satisfactory answer....

[speculation warning!]
This is my personal view only:

First,
It looks to me like they want to "keep it a secret" that they may be turning to in-house assembly on the first batch. (probably for the sake of time)

Second,
It looks like they are hoping to distract customers to this possibility of waiting longer with (newly or yet to be released) technical specs on their design/ASIC chip type/process node. Like many have said, they are injected information and picture to keep them interested until the darn things ultimately ship.

Keeping the excitement and hopes up as a substitute for actual delivery. (IMO)

Don't be at all surprised if they are using 65nm and the "watt to GH/s" is better than 60watts. Say around 23 to 40 watts (@ 60Gh/s) . In the coming days it will be their only main selling point, hence why they push it so often over and over again. (IMO)

If I am right about this, feel free to donate to a charity of your choice.

Third, (Looks into his crystal ball)
They are unlikely to make their estimated deadline in 24 days and people (the smaller customers) will begin pulling out their money in droves as Christmas approaches. The wise will have pulled their money out safely. The (IMO)unwise will hold on (on loyalty/hope/various reasoning) until they get an actual delivery sometime in late December and onward until February.

I suppose at that point rumors that BFL is in the red will escalate and people will be afraid to pull their money out for fear of imploding the company financially. Possibly losing their money and the product. These are the people whom are likely to eventually get their product if enough of the remaining customers stay (better late than never, all IMO).

If they do resort to in-house assembly (ASIC placement) to save time, my crystal ball says there may be noticeable defects as February and March roll on. I don't think BFL has bad hardware. I just think they are trying to meet a timed schedule that perhaps will put regular quality control processes at "the blink of an eye" rather than slowly working out bugs. This is (as admitted) the problem of going full custom. Issues are likely to crop up and it takes more time (with a better result). Cutting corners for the sake of time may lead to quality issues etc.

Fourth,
I think people will be disappointed that their unrealistic expectations are not met and leads to a pressuring of the company to produce their products faster than ever before. This will likely lead to consistency issues between batches. (IMO= In my opinion).

Fifth,
I think people will be unhappy when (or if) BFL cannot produce 6,000 units from their first/initial shipment within 1 month and that order numbers will be fulfilled at a slower than expected rate. (Correct me if I am wrong, but the 1/3 plan only applied to the first month of established pre-orders...not to every order after the first month.)

That will likely cause a second rush of refunds if people realize that even though the company has begun shipping...their order is a ways off. Possibly with loyal customers openly pleading with people that they will sink the company or leave the other customers potentially high and dry (without refunds) if a second refund round happens.

The biggest warning signs will be if and/or when the largest Mini-rig customers begin to pull out. I think the Mini-Rig customers will see the whole thing in a different light than those whom have only invested a few thousand.

I don't imagine these larger customers want to be known for various reasons and are unlikely to post on the forums. They are likely to be low-key and when or if they ask for refunds, it is unlikely the community will know it happened. Which means the invisible customers won't be noticed if they exit the pre-ordering process. I also think they will hold out until there is no reason to stay.

I don't see (in my crystal ball) these larger customers being willing to leave BFL unless their money is put at risk by too many small refunds being issued. I think they understand that they will be very profitable regardless of when BFL ships. Their main concern (my crystal ball tells me) is the company remains solvent until they receive their delivery.

While smaller customers care about "marginal" profitability in comparison to these larger orders. I estimate their mentality should be very different.

[This has been a work of an imaginative mind +- a crystal ball. This is posted only as speculation and a conveyance of one individuals views on a murky situation.)

It seems the Goonies are still out on adventures.

Edit: Nevermind that was the monster squad. The creativity in the 80's was better then than now . (It's the kid in me)

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0093560/

Could be. Lets hope he does.

These are small hints from Tom (of bASIC) that the power use is not all that different from BFL units. (Joke link)

(Actually, the power supply should not be run at 100% load, so I am sure these are very subtle hints from Tom that a Lot of 10 units will comfortably run within the sustained power envelope of this 1k watt PSU. Otherwise he would be pretty insane to be marketing it for 10 units at 100watts each.

http://www.seasonicusa.com/Platinum_Series.htm

It should be exciting news for all prospective bASIC buyers. It also shows that it is not an impossibility to hit 100watts or less for a 54Gh/s unit.

<HINT, HINT>

EDIT: Also he is doing this with 6 chips on a bASIC design vs 8 chips for a BFL Single SC unit. So interesting times ahead...

It appears you are attempting to create a "false narrative". Possibly so that when BFL reads through the forums you will have some sort of "idea" to feed them.

This conversation will be unproductive. Lets call it quits to save us both time and effort. I will hold a proper conversation and bring up the issues with the people to whom it ultimately matters.

@ Inaba
You just edited your post for content.

Edit: Listen Inaba, it is not a personal issue. It is an issue of your conduct. You have more than presented a very bad image for BFL all over this section.

There are countless individuals all over the board who comment on it in nearly every thread. This is not an [isolated] issue of "psychopathy" on my part. (?) Unless everyone is crazy, you have a very bad reputation and that reputation affects your employers business image and their business. Several members have been disgusted at your behavior or feedback and have gone so far as to request refunds.

You have openly told me you want to ban me if I attempt to bring the issue or your posted material up on the BFL forum. This was just in the last page. Before that, you stated publicly that you didn't want any of BitCoinTalks "crazyness" to come to BFL's board. Even before that, you have stated that BFL wishes to have limited contact with BitCoinTalk. [You said due to the community members being "trolls".

You have personally responded to my posts and told me that "this community" (BitCoinTalk.com) is ~useless~ in several ways.

I don't originate nor have any deep connections with BitCoinTalk, so that doesn't affect me. I am new to BitCoinTalk in case you have missed this. I have no emotional attachment to this community. I only come to this community to research and discuss the devices from different vendors. What they are developing and will soon be shipping are my core interests.

I have already told you before that I do not care what vendor sells me the equipment. I do not care if it is BFL. bASIC, or AVALON.

I chose Avalon because when I first came here (about a month ago) I was going to choose the largest vendor (BFL).

After reading the episodic nonsense that people wrote and questioning you about them, I tried to clean out the mess and start a real discussion where I could. The attacks have gone down dramatically. (especially FUD = Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt)

I have about 6 years or more experience of participating as a Moderator at another (undisclosed) forum. So I try not to indulge in too much nonsense.

----------------------

Do you remember the first series of messages you responded to when I only had about 10 posts?

I have to at least give BFL (the company) the chance the make things right.

I am not interested in a vendetta. So I assume they don't know and once they know, the whole thing will be rectified.

If they tell me or the forum that what Josh does is okay by them....well that is unfortunate and something more to consider. Giving a company a chance to intervene on behalf of the community is a good first start. Almost everyone who is present on the BFL Forums are from BitCoinTalk.

So there is no way to separate the bread from the butter as BFL_Josh would have people believe. His disdain for the community, should be hidden behind the mask of professional conduct. Not shown outwardly and openly.

=====================

I believe the BFL user account is Jody. (General Manager/Customer Service)

So at the very least, when it is necessary, other BFL employees do interact with the forum. BFL_Engineer is a mystery. I don't know who is behind that account.

You are one sick fellow.

You really don't know when to stop. I will add a copy of your statement for BFL review. I am certain of one thing, they will not sanction your [creepily disturbing] behavior.

Did you use confidential company information to do a background search?

I thought you had changed, so where is the point in continuing? Certainly you have been engaging the community in this section far less since Monday.

Now that you seemingly confirmed you haven't changed, and have actually tried to tell me to finish what I started. I have a renewed purpose to complete the complaint and possibly go a few steps further.

As for "FUD". as long as anyone has used your statements as a foundation for their basis...well, need I say more?

You do a disservice to your company, sir. You don't even want your own written words on your own company forum. I am pretty sure you would ban me from your company forum if I so much as post some of your posts and air my complaints there.

Am I wrong about this? Or will you tell me that it is an inappropriate channel to air complaints?

Anyway, you've basically said, less talk, more action. So I will oblige your request until your superiors have a word with you about how you treat customers or prospective customers. I didn't want to cause you any trouble as long as you did take a conscious look at your behavior and tone it down, which I thought was the case.

That bull has (apparently) since been neutered and two 50 pound cannon balls with chains added around his testicles.

He is watching what he says I hope. If not there will be more documented complaints.

I believe you blew a gasket over a single term. I  worked in construction where the term fabrication means something different than the semiconductor industry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prefabrication

Other than that, no harm intended.