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441  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] [ICOKE] Coca-Cola Coin on: November 11, 2014, 08:24:53 AM
Now let me lay down my rationale for doing that project the way I do it:

1. Art is my form of expression
2. Credit is the life-line of our economy.
3. The production of credit in the form of a national currency is by law a monopoly held by the state and delegated to private banks.
4. Crypto-currency is a viable alternative to a centralized monetary authority.
5. A competitive market of credit providers which have to be accountable to their failure is in dire need.
6. The existing state of the western economy relied heavily on the central bank quantitative easing policy.
7. No one have clue as to the long term effect off that policy.
8. The Sated do not presented to the public plans for the banking system failure
9. An alternative of a parallel monetary communication system have to be set for the case of 2008 recurrence of a much larger scale.
10. Our social organisations which make the laws are dependent and financed by the banking system
11. Public interest thus have very little effect on the law makers regarding  financial issues.
12. The "Too big to fail" phenomenon that was Identified as the source of the 2008 failure and was due to be fixed, only got "larger"
13. A non violent rise against the banking system,as demonstrated in the occupy movement using only democratic actions is too weak.
14. Corporates have a much grater power both on finance and government then citizens.
15. Greed is always present and strong, the system relies on it.
16. Get the Greedy and powerful corporates on your side,  to fight the powerful and greedy governments which should have been on your side.
17. Get their attention to realize that option.
18. Make them invest time learning about this option.
19. Protect yourself
20. Make your living doing that and HAVE FUN!!!!
 


haha so your going to negotiate with coke? your kidding....dear Lord i hope your kidding

NO...Im really not kidding, They will eventually get that point and will go ahead to make their Coca-cola coin which they most likely would like to appear as the only coca-cola coin. Then once they will  try to get their hand on my coin it will most likely end up in negotiations. who ever will hold a coin then will most likely profit from that since negotiating with me actually will not do much if the coins are not in my possession.
Anyway this way I will get reworded for my work and effort to educate the corporate on the new prospects of their future.
442  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] [ICOKE] Coca-Cola Coin on: November 10, 2014, 02:01:22 PM
Now let me lay down my rationale for doing that project the way I do it:

1. Art is my form of expression
2. Credit is the life-line of our economy.
3. The production of credit in the form of a national currency is by law a monopoly held by the state and delegated to private banks.
4. Crypto-currency is a viable alternative to a centralized monetary authority.
5. A competitive market of credit providers which have to be accountable to their failure is in dire need.
6. The existing state of the western economy relied heavily on the central bank quantitative easing policy.
7. No one have clue as to the long term effect of that policy.
8.  States  do not presented to the public, plans for the banking system failure
9. An alternative of a parallel monetary communication system have to be set for the case of 2008 recurrence of a much larger scale.
10. Our social organisations which make the laws, are dependent and financed by the banking system
11. Public interest thus have very little effect on the law makers regarding  financial issues.
12. The "Too big to fail" phenomenon that was Identified as the source of the 2008 failure and was due to be fixed, only got "larger"
13. A non violent rise against the banking system,as demonstrated in the occupy movement using only democratic actions is too weak.
14. Corporates have a much greater power both on finance and government then citizens.
15. Greed is always present and strong, the system relies on it.
16. Get the Greedy and powerful corporates on your side,  to fight the powerful and greedy governments which should have been on your side.
17. Get their attention to realize that option.
18. Make them invest time learning about this option.
19. Protect yourself
20. Make your living doing that and HAVE FUN!!!!
 
443  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] [ICOKE] Coca-Cola Coin on: November 10, 2014, 10:34:17 AM
Nili , what your doing IS ILLEAGLE

Of course whether or not this is true becomes a jurisdictional question.  However let us assume for the moment that we are talking about jurisdictions that apply the Berne Convention, which is the international treaty for intellectual property law.  Assuming this convention, we can simply apply what is known as the "Berne Three Step Test" (found in Article 9(2) of the international treaty) to determine if this usage is legitimate or not.

Article 9 reads:
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(1) Authors of literary and artistic works protected by this Convention shall have the exclusive right of authorizing the reproduction of these works, in any manner or form.

(2) It shall be a matter for legislation in the countries of the Union to permit the reproduction of such works in certain special cases, provided that such reproduction does not conflict with a normal exploitation of the work and does not unreasonably prejudice the legitimate interests of the author.

(3) Any sound or visual recording shall be considered as a reproduction for the purposes of this Convention.

Did coke give NILI special authorization? (Probably not.)

Is NILI's reproductive use covered under a special exemption in their jurisdiction which does not conflict with a normal exploitation and which does not unreasonably prejudice Coke's interests?
  Is NILI's reproductive use covered under a special exemption in their jurisdiction?
  If so, does this use conflict with a normal exploitation of the work?
  If not, does the use prejudice the legitimate interests of Coke?
(This is all highly dependent on both the jurisdiction in question, as well as Coke's own usage of and legitimate interest in the works within that jurisdiction!!)

Is the reproduction a sound or visual recording? (I think we can all agree, at least, that the answer to this is yes.)

So it is not as simple as "NILI reproduced some IP so now they are screwed" but a question of in what jurisdiction that reproduction was made *AND* if it happens to be a legitimate special exemption in that jurisdiction *AND* what Coke's own ("allowed") exploitation *AND* interests in the matter are.

This is assuming that the Berne convention even applies.  The laws are certainly very different in places that do not adopt this convention.

EDIT: Disclaimer: IANAL!!

you are hired, HMC. :-) (I pay in mouse coins)

I would like now to introduce to our discussion here the issue of appropriation art and show you the direction which I have chosen as a conceptual artist. In the photos below I have use other artist work and made it my art work by applying to it a few new layers, conceptual and visual. The entire piece was created on twitter as twitpics. I was going to a show opening and photographing the art works while incorporating the event visuals in a way that was related to the art itself.  the following pics are a few samples from two of my best works. Remember that the artwork in the pick is another artist's IP

                                                 


                                       

It is important to understand the conceptual end of these works. being done on twitter and tweeting it in real time, is of itself adding a conceptual layer that was not part of the original work. On top of it adding another feature that is part of the body of work remove it even further from the original work and finally stating the original owner of the IP of the appropriated piece, In these case the original creator (by name or gallery opening event) is also get the credit as part of the title of the piece.
(here is a link more example for that type of appropriation art work http://twitpic.com/photos/nililerner?page=6)

My Coca-Cola Coin  and the other brand name Coin I have created as Art-Coins follow that same exact formula. The title of the piece is named after the original author of the piece, In that case it is the coca-coal company that have the IP legal rights. Then there is the added conceptual layer which in this case is the coin itself. and the added feature that entire thread, which I use as the medium of my art like  a picture is the medium of these pieces above.
444  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [PRE-ANN][ZEN][Pre-sale] Zennet: Decentralized Supercomputer - Official Thread on: November 09, 2014, 01:30:09 PM
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- Zencoin will NOT be usable or transferable until the launch of the genesis block with the official Zennet platform release.

- Ongoing Zencoin generation, similar to mining, is not planned for Zennet. Upon the launch of the genesis block, all coins will be distributed to their owners, except for 8 percent of the Zencoins that will be retained for the Zennet Team, and another 8 percent of the Zencoins that will be retained for community applications and bounties.

- An additional 4 percent of the Zencoins will be retained for supporting initial network growth. These coins will be spent on the network to create resource demand and incentivize the joining of new nodes during the early stages of the network. These coins will be fairly distributed to the network participants as they will be used to continuously rent computing resources until the coins are exhausted, in order to bootstrap fast network growth and early adoption.

- All other unsold coins will be destroyed when the official Zennet network launches.

I do like to spent a bit more time on that though the real importance of Zenet is in it being the first token-coin attached to  a service platform which operates soley on the token. Again, Ethereum present that same prospect but as a less advanced mechanism. The triumph of Zennet is that it actually managed to facilitate an almost direct connection between payment and service received. In other word it is like swapping service for a comedy without a third party involvement.Thus it cut the need to a contract carried out and enforced  by that third party. This type of direct contract, is the thing that has been achieved by the bitcoin  protocol. But so far had been applied only to direct transaction of the coin itself, not any attached service or commodity. Micropayment is in did not Zennet's invention' but linking it to a service that allow the exchange of a  commodity per time unit with a coin micro units and both being controlled by an algorithm secured and powered by the user community. that is the breakthrough to my understanding. (This which i came across and understand very little of, is some what similar in nature I think http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributed_transaction )

As I have said before, This evolution of the crypto-currency ecosystem will allow very soon to transfer information of all kind in quanta upon payment without involving a third centralized patry and that is a big step to humanity This allow for a true free market mechanism to set the price and facilitate  risk mitigation like in future commodity trade.

Now, since most people can not comprehend this in terms of the breakthrough that it is, or just dont understand enough like myself , you guys in Zennet have to device a better reward system which will encourage early investors.
The way you have constructed that is not offering early investors great enough returns on their investment. and thus might not be the best way to determine  the value of the coin. So I will suggest two option which are probably too complex to actually be perceived and execute. but I would ask you again to reconsider keeping more coin for yourselves after the sell ends. The community investors should not fear a Mastercoin event recurrence. Since your platform need the token for its operation, unlike Mastercoin for example.  Thus coins will regain value if the product is sound.

Option one:
Set the minimum price value of a coin ( say one coin is 8 cent) and have investor determine the number of coins rather the value of it. So if we had only $1000 invested then the number of coins will be only 80,000. It may sound dumb but this way you can assure that early investor in did have 10% of all coins, if having 10% of the coins is attractive to investors, which I think it's not.
(The "gambling" prospect you offer in you present model by not setting up the price is a turnoff point to serious investors, though would work for your benefit assuming you can create a good buzz, since most investors are gamblers.)

Option two
Since I dont think that letting the community set up the value the of coins is sustainable for you and definitely can leave you streaped out of good profit for your hard work, I would think that a coin reward system that  grant investors with more benefit the earlier they come in is the best strategy. Regardless of market price these investors should benefit in zennet coin on early investment  Thus for each coin sold on pre-sell, the investor is practically given a one time "present" of  one other coin once the genesis block is launched . All these pre-sell tokens can be issued on counterparty wallet and be transferable and traded before the genesis block issue. On counterparty you can issue these pre sell units in instalments such that the first Issued instalment is  grand the buyers with 2 real zennt per one tokent and the second instalment grant the buyer with 1.5 real zennet per token unit (each instalment will have to be  issued as a different token but this have no bearing on the real Zennt, For easy use you can name it something like pre-zennte-1, pre-zennte-2 and so forth )


 
   
445  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] [IDISNEY] Disney Coin on: November 08, 2014, 12:37:36 PM
How much would it cost to these companies to ask their lawyers to issue a C&D ?

Very little, but they must consider the future cost as well as the immediate cost.  Sending the C&D too early, before they can point to specific actionable infringements, would cost them much in any later proceedings.  They know not to strike early or it will weaken their strikes later.

Quote
(considering the very obvious nature of the case, at some point you might wondering if it isn't the law firm working for these companies trying to get easy fees... lol I hope I won't get sued myself, making such comment    Grin)

One thing that I've always found consistently holds true in any of my dealings with legal arms of large companies (in-house teams or contracted consultation, alike) is that a large part of their function seems to be simply in justifying creation of more work for themselves.  This would be just more reason that they would wait for now, as they can bill much more for civil proceedings than they can for just sending a flimsy C&D.  They will "do both" once they are confident that the C&D won't only serve to reduce the number of hours that the civil proceedings could go on for.

EDIT: P.S.  I am not so sure that the nature of the case is really so obvious.  So far, there does not seem to be anything actionable at all.  Of course, IANAL.  However, I suspect that Nili is smart enough not to give them anything actionable in the course of her work.  If she does everything right, they will be standing around scratching their heads and thinking about how to justify more time standing around scratching their heads, because they will know this will be all they will really be able to bill for out of it.  I'm sure they'll find plenty of reason to bill for plenty of time for plenty of head scratching, but might never find anything actionable otherwise.  I'm sure the companies will still pay them large sums for the head-scratching to continue, just in case Nili does misstep and something does become actionable.




MICKEY: Minnie, this morning while brushing my teeth I looked in the mirror from all angles.
 I am a mouse!


MINNIE: You are shaped like a mouse, but this does not make you one.

MICKEY: So what am I then Minnie? How can we keep on with our life not knowing who you are?.

MINNIE: We are IP and our life is a property of the Disney company.

MICKEY: Wow Minnie, I never appreciated how much you really know, you always seem so simple minded.

MINNIE: Exactly, should I repeat Newton quote? Actually this will make it multiplication and thus remove from the truth.

MICKEY: Wow, Wow...you are getting too smart, lf you keep on like that we will have to switch colors.



MINNIE: xxxxxxxx.

MICKEY: yyyyyyyy.

MINNIE: xxxxxxxx.

MICKEY: yyyyyyyy.

MINNIE: xxxxxxxx.



MINNIE: NO! from now on I will make my own colors choices with no IP restrains.  

MICKEY: So, are we going to have our own IP Address too?


446  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] [ICOKE] Coca-Cola Coin on: November 08, 2014, 10:13:03 AM
And last one stay on topic, my first money art project 2008. In a brooklyn open studios event I was making these ribbons  and selling each for $2 . On the wall this  statement was written



EPIC!

But that was only the beginning. When the summer of 2011 rolled in I took off  back to NYC for yet another epic movie production (which I cant even remember which)  A few week before returning to Israel (Yes im a native Israeli, My family is here and I oppose the occupation which is maintained by big money interest and shrunken hurts) the occupy movement notation  was seeded in a central Tel-Aviv Avenue named after Rothchild and spread across the entire country in a matter of weeks. By the time I have landed in Israel the big 1,000,000 demonstration was well on its way. The day I set my tent in the Avenu was the day of that demonstration which marked the beginning of the end of that last epic effort of the people to claim their freedom . The occupied movement that took off around the globe brought excitement and hope which was not present since the days of the flowers kids of the 60. But this grate moment of triumph was to be washed out by mere hosed of water and an army of policemen operating under the orders of the democracy. The Occupied movement was defeated using laws that created to regulate the order in public spaces and the hygiene of the city.
During that next year I have created my next work which featured everything that I came to realize about money and the state of our social union. In one of the still ongoing struggles public events I have set up a both in which I demonstrated the way fiat money should be created. I named this currency LOVE-NOTE



These notes where mimicking the things I grow to realize about the organisation of life itself. Love being nature's credit note, is secured by DNA signature to assure the  common interest of both parties. The thing that I came to realize about our monetary system, is that we are missing the individual signature of each member of a credit union of our states, to validate each note the state create. We have the central authority which was elected in a democratic process, but that authority of central banks can issue the credit on behalf of all of the union participant and then decide who will enjoy that new created line of credit while charging interest from all members which on behalf of their future work these notes was created for using it .

So as the central banker of my LOVE-NOTES I had to have each individual signing the notes created in their name. I literally had them draw it according to  my specifications and then sign with a few strands of hair.The note was then numbered and dated and signed by me as the central banker. A leger that linked between each note number and the members, who made  the note, was created and signed.


447  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] [ICOKE] Coca-Cola Coin on: November 07, 2014, 10:28:26 PM
This project, My coins, as an art concept is very very complex since it is using reality and real life materials as if it is a medium I can mold to my will.

In my experience most good art carries such a "social complexity."  It is one of the things that brings "depth" to the life of a work.  As I hinted at earlier, art is not art without a reference to some shared context.  A work like what you attempt here naturally carries a "heavy" reference.

Quote
I did not intended to make that clear right from the beginning, it would not be easy to get through with it to a well educated art community and I don't expect people here to get is as such.

Clearly!  I worry, though, that this "baby steps" approach will obscure too much so early.  I'd suggest worrying less about the explanations of the work, leave that to the art historians of the future, and focus instead on the presentation itself.

Quote
The only importance of keep stating the artistic quality of this work right here on the thread was for legal issues which of course where the first to be brought up. I will post and explain much more about my art as time comes..

You shouldn't worry about what the masses think about legalities, since their opinion on law doesn't change the law.  Just because they misunderstand IP and IP law (not an uncommon trait, as most people are neither lawyers nor worked closely with lawyers on matters of IP use and re-use) doesn't mean that there is any actual impact the legal status of your art.

Quote
at the moment I do not expect people to buy my coins for believing in the quality of my art. In my NILIcoins thread I will very soon post picks ans info about my art.

I'm very much looking forward to it.

Quote
There is however one point  every mathematician and code writer can understand better then most artists (though they too use that faculty all the time). When a writer tell you that his fictional characters are the ones writing the story it is because just like in math, once you set the  underline rules by which this character is operating, every situation you present to your character, it will act with in character according the first rules you set for it. Unless it is out of character and then you as the writer have to justify that. Which means that you present the reader with a good  proof which explains that. this justification for the out-of-character behaviour is the things that moves the story along and makes it interesting.

Asimov's rules of science fiction spring immediately to mind, but this is a general sentiment expressed by authors through all of history, so you're in good company here.  A story is, of course, an iterative bifurcation of "what could be" with each iteration dependent on the branching of each prior iteration.  This is one of those things from our PMs that I "breezed past because I consider it so very fundamental that it almost goes without saying."

Stop worrying and learn to love the bomb.  Don't let the bifurcation of your story get "held up" on the first few iterations of the plot development simply because a few people here are already failing in keeping up with the plot.  Let the story unfold, and the true critics (the ones who matter anyway) will be able to follow the story-line just fine.  In the end, history will have little difficulty in understanding the realization of your justification.

This is assuming that you remain justified, of course.  This is critical, your story must be molded within the legal constraints.  I don't think this will be so "nearly impossible" as these few critics (who have clearly lost the plot already?) might think.  I don't even think it will be that hard.  The Berne Convention really is quite cut-and-dry, and easy to follow.

Again, though, you are not *doing* it just yet.  You've introduced the premise of your plot, but we're still all waiting to see the story, itself, unfold.  I can understand the hesitation in the face of the inevitable criticism and misunderstandings, but "the debate" about your story's justification is futile from both sides until the story is actually begun to be told!  (This is precisely why you almost certainly won't see a C&D quite yet.  Those teams of lawyers, necessarily being smart folk to work for such prominent companies, certainly understand that they can't hope to argue the justification of the story before the story really begins this path through the bifurcation!)

I'm rooting for you and I'm sure that I'm not alone despite being, so far, the only one to root for you publicly.

I really want to see your work of art be a work of art.  If (when) it is, it should shape up to be an awesome one.  Wink


This one is for you HMC some remnants of my twitter project in 2009, printed copies which I saved tto documents  a few tweets projects,




And Three old  paintings of the child I once was







And this  one, a detail of an embroidered statement 2002



And last one stay on topic, my first money art project 2008. In a brooklyn open studios event I was making these ribbons  and selling each for $2 . On the wall this  statement was written



448  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] [ICOKE] Coca-Cola Coin on: November 07, 2014, 09:03:56 PM
let me now explain the rational of doing this project from the perspective of the law: No lawyer whatsoever would be willing even to advise me on that. I could never explain it without demonstrating, which is the thing Im doing here.
 I may not be educated enough in all that the law say in every jurisdiction, but since it have to follow some common sense, I can use the information that is out there to  to work around  while stay with in safe limits.

SRSLY the EFF loves this sort of stuff, and have people who are well qualified to cover even the differing jurisdictional concerns.  You should definitely take this to them.  If nothing else they will offer some general guidance.  I suspect that they will take an interest beyond just that, because they tend to be very active with anything that "asks the new questions" in our virtual frontiers.

Again, even if they choose not to get involved they are some very fun people and I suspect that you will enjoy the discussion of it with them.

As I check my options I would like the Coke lawyers check this option on behalf of their clients. While doing this though, please keep in mind that it is only a representation for the real thing. an illustration if you wish. To make it legal and economic sound will require much more work . So as I work up my applied texture  you can concentrate on making the world a better place to us all
.




1 coupon unit = 1 product unit
price of 1 coupon unit < price of 1 product unit in the market


The coupon units has no expiration date (unlike most coupons)
The coupon units will always be redeemable by issuer (or risk management agent) for the monetary value that it was issued at.


The monetary benefits of the model:

1. coin value stability - A value that range between the market price of the product unit ,and the issue price of the coupon unit.
    The smaller the gap is, the less fluctuations of value are possible
2. Ease of rating the real value and risks of the coin - The balance of,  products in production, damned for this product and the total value of     
    other assets can be evaluated to determine the real value of the coin at any given moment

* There are more complex benefits once the coin enter a credit pool and is lent out on behalf of the borrower potential production power.  I will issue these points in another document which I will post soon
449  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] Disney Coin [IDISNEY] on: November 07, 2014, 04:13:12 PM
MICKEY: Did you see this Minnie?
Maybe!!  I know Coke is aware of this, and maybe view it as a joke...  I guess only time will tell.
Maybe they are just explicitly cautious to not end up involved with the "Chilling Effects" list?  (Seems likely, since they are one of the very few big companies not already very well represented there.)

Probably the mouse coin will see some response first.  Walt&Co seem to have no reservations about sending out a C&D at the drop of a hat.

Note that after expanding the data-set under study I concluded that there is roughly even chance of either company issuing the C&D first.  Both are quite trigger happy with this.

I suspect they will both wait until there is something solidly actionable first, though.

I'll tell you what would be stopping them assuming they know their craft.  They both need to verify every aspect of the law regarding the issues here, If they claim my action as wrong doing and threatened to take action, they are risking themselves of being dragged to court for "bulling" me with their mighty lawyers power and money. And this is the last thing they need for their image  . Though disney would stand a better chance than Coca-Cola' but for a reason I'm not going to clue them in to.
Anyway as long as I dont really make much money or headlines over this thing , maybe they don't even really put much thought into it yet . This I would not know, but it seams like you know a bit more.  Wink
450  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] Disney Coin [IDISNEY] on: November 07, 2014, 01:19:39 PM



MICKEY: Minnie, you are over reacting, people appreciate you as a character, and eventually they will appreciate your contribution to the bitcoin ecosystem too.

MINNIE: Mickey, maybe you should speak with Satoshi and ask him to reply in our thread.

MICKEY: The great Satoshi Nakamoto?! are you out or your mind?!!! .

MINNIE: He is a made up character just like us, how much greater can he be?

MICKEY: He is a human! Not a mouse like us.

MINNIE: O' darling, Mickey Mouse is your pet name, you are not really a mouse, mice can't talk or add numbers, remember?






MICKEY: Did you see this Minnie?
Maybe!!  I know Coke is aware of this, and maybe view it as a joke...  I guess only time will tell.

Maybe they are just explicitly cautious to not end up involved with the "Chilling Effects" list?  (Seems likely, since they are one of the very few big companies not already very well represented there.)

Probably the mouse coin will see some response first.  Walt&Co seem to have no reservations about sending out a C&D at the drop of a hat.
[

MINNIE: Yes I have Mickey.

MICKEY: you know what this means?!.

MINNIE  That we are going to get sue first?!

MICKEY: NO!!!! it means that Walt himself was a mouse!  Even HunterMinerCrafter said that.
He called IDISNEY  a mouse coin.
And you know how smart and how respected he is in the community.


MINNIE: O' darling...


451  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] [ICOKE] Coca-Cola Coin on: November 07, 2014, 12:13:09 PM
Nili is doing this because he's a kid who doesn't understand the law.

I find it interesting that you assume Nili is both young and male.

I'm pretty sure that you're wrong on both guesses.

You're right.  I did assume that.  Most people on this forum assume I'm a young male, too, but I'm not.  I shouldn't have immediately made that assumption, but something about the way she posts screams "youth" to me.

Nonetheless I can assure you, NILI, that a cease and desist letter will be forthcoming.  They will not have to take you to court, because I'm assuming you don't have that level of legal representation. 

Ill try to be less of a smart ass which is one thing that made you think im a young male, and which Im usually not, only once called for.

To even compose the letter of  cease and desist, these lawyers have to really understand what is the thing that im doing here better than all of you here. Under the act of fair use which give art a large ligh way, it would be extremely hard to consider my acts as illegal, even If I make a lot of money doing that. They will have to establish the fact that it is not art and not intended as art. Having it be suck as art does not help much though they could have used it to show that it wasn't really my intent to make art,  Smiley  But considering my record as an artist and the things that I have done as art before, this will not hold in court. I can prove beyond every reasonable doubt that It is in line with  similar things in the past and that this is a very rational step in the development of my art. which indid it is.  I could never come to this point without doing that prior work. ( I will supply these lawyers with all the the material they need in my NILIcoin thread, for now try to find everything about @whatar and @nililerner on twitter, both are deleted accounts but some tweets and pics are  left out there)

Having the art issue so complicated they could resort to coin issue which is the only thing that could infringe on their legal rights and be yet be illegal, like making play money look real and even the slightest confusing to the user. It is illegal to use the dollar for art and it is illegal to reproduce things that looks too much like real dollar. However even  bitcoin is not  declared as currency in most jurisdictions and even if bitoin was such thing, the counterparty Tokens would have to be define as the same thing which is even a bigger challenge)

There might be other things that Im not aware of, but I will learn that once the letter arrive. Then I see if I have what it need to address that. I can assure you all that I will share every piece of information with you here on the thread .
452  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] [ICOKE] Coca-Cola Coin on: November 07, 2014, 11:22:30 AM
I actually did these kind of things for work, working in the movie industry but this I don't consider my art.

Did you enjoy doing the work itself and/or the resulting artifacts and outcomes?  If so then I would consider it, at least in part, "your art."

Can you show us some of your best art that is yours, under what my definition of "yours" would be?  (The ones where you most enjoyed the work or product.)

I'm enjoying the PMs, we agree on much.  We disagree on some critical things (like if we should even consider the "count" of point particles at a point in space) but nothing that creates any real fundamental dispute.  I look forward to seeing more on your take of our shared reality.

We may or may not end up agreeing on our definition of art.  I'm interested to see if you can do this art in a way that we can collectively as a society agree is a work of art.  If not they'll probably be right and "the system" will likely come down on you.

If so, kudos would certainly be in order.

I would agree that it could be done in such a way as you intend, but I don't agree that it has quite been demonstrated as of yet.  You need to stop hinting at it and "do the work of art that it should be" or the plot will be lost before you've actually even begun.

(Interesting IANAL side note, relating to my earlier post.  Under most Berne convention interpretation He/She/They have not demonstrated any IP violation yet.  I suspect they don't intend to, and are smart enough to actually know how not to.  Understanding and abiding by the Berne Convention is not hard.  There are special considerations for things like international trade, but I suspect these considerations will be accounted for.  No-one rational would attempt what is being attempted here without appropriate legal consultation involved.  Personally I don't see any real indication that Nili is irrational.)

Stop testing the waters and go all out, come what may.

Don't forget to continue to have fun with it, or all will be lost.  It won't be your art anymore.

Be happy.

I do appreciate the time and the effort you art taking in understanding and improving this  thing that Im trying to do here.
This project, My coins, as an art concept is very very complex since it is using reality and real life materials as if it is a medium I can mold to my will. I did not intended to make that clear right from the beginning, it would not be easy to get through with it to a well educated art community and I don't expect people here to get is as such. The only importance of keep stating the artistic quality of this work right here on the thread was for legal issues which of course where the first to be brought up. I will post and explain much more about my art as time comes.. at the moment I do not expect people to buy my coins for believing in the quality of my art. In my NILIcoins thread I will very soon post picks ans info about my art.

There is however one point  every mathematician and code writer can understand better then most artists (though they too use that faculty all the time). When a writer tell you that his fictional characters are the ones writing the story it is because just like in math, once you set the  underline rules by which this character is operating, every situation you present to your character, it will act with in character according the first rules you set for it. Unless it is out of character and then you as the writer have to justify that. Which means that you present the reader with a good  proof which explains that. this justification for the out-of-character behaviour is the things that moves the story along and makes it interesting.

The more fundamental your rule setting is the simpler it must get. Most of what we consider to be fundamental is very often set on even more fundamental structure that is set in a different realm. all of our science rules are set on a structure that is based on our social behaviour and rules. As a conceptual artist, im trained at sifting through that mess,.Trained by the means of experienced using my most natural tendencies which are extremely rational though not appear that way in first sight.

One more important note regarding that rule setting...It is how you make something out of nothing, or something else out of something. You set the rules and then you have to put it in motion . I was once was titled by a very well educated art critic as " the most self referenced artist he ever encountered" . Self referencing is that motion. You set a rule and then you start using by applying to situations. If with in one peice you use the rules clear and sound it will always make sense since it is the thing that set that reality, not the other way around. whether that reality is a painting, a story or real life.. In real life however ,you need the others consent to that rule. that consent is of the most fundamental rules of all thing which differ reality from fiction.... but on this ...later.

Rational x = Risk y
 

*sorry, just posted that before completing (was rushed out and pressed post without checking)
Rational x = Risk y
let me now explain the rational of doing this project from the perspective of the law: No lawyer whatsoever would be willing even to advise me on that. I could never explain it without demonstrating, which is the thing Im doing here.
 I may not be educated enough in all that the law say in every jurisdiction, but since it have to follow some common sense, I can use the information that is out there to  to work around  while stay with in safe limits.

This is where "risk" comes into the equation. Calculated risk if to name it properly, is  once your x of the rational  and y of the risk are proportional to each other inversely, meaning the bigger the x of the rational is the smaller the y of risk can be.. If my rational factor is very large my risk factor can be very small and vise versa.

The thing that I now have to clear with you is: what is the x stand for in that case and what is the y?
X is logic and Y is social code. when the logic of my rational is well established the risk of social infringement is much lower regardless of the law, assuming the law itself is rational and rooted in social consensus.
Since I establish a very strong x factor I can have my Y factor much lower. never the less I had to set for myself the number which both sides of the equation are equal to and that number is also larger than the common one is. That number by the way represent the limit of our function, which in this case is  the function of getting through life safely. (if I just messed up all of your math definitions, that is because I do the same with math as I do with laws and this, I truly enjoy doing :-) )
453  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] [ICOKE] Coca-Cola Coin on: November 07, 2014, 10:32:01 AM
I actually did these kind of things for work, working in the movie industry but this I don't consider my art.

Did you enjoy doing the work itself and/or the resulting artifacts and outcomes?  If so then I would consider it, at least in part, "your art."

Can you show us some of your best art that is yours, under what my definition of "yours" would be?  (The ones where you most enjoyed the work or product.)

I'm enjoying the PMs, we agree on much.  We disagree on some critical things (like if we should even consider the "count" of point particles at a point in space) but nothing that creates any real fundamental dispute.  I look forward to seeing more on your take of our shared reality.

We may or may not end up agreeing on our definition of art.  I'm interested to see if you can do this art in a way that we can collectively as a society agree is a work of art.  If not they'll probably be right and "the system" will likely come down on you.

If so, kudos would certainly be in order.

I would agree that it could be done in such a way as you intend, but I don't agree that it has quite been demonstrated as of yet.  You need to stop hinting at it and "do the work of art that it should be" or the plot will be lost before you've actually even begun.

(Interesting IANAL side note, relating to my earlier post.  Under most Berne convention interpretation He/She/They have not demonstrated any IP violation yet.  I suspect they don't intend to, and are smart enough to actually know how not to.  Understanding and abiding by the Berne Convention is not hard.  There are special considerations for things like international trade, but I suspect these considerations will be accounted for.  No-one rational would attempt what is being attempted here without appropriate legal consultation involved.  Personally I don't see any real indication that Nili is irrational.)

Stop testing the waters and go all out, come what may.

Don't forget to continue to have fun with it, or all will be lost.  It won't be your art anymore.

Be happy.

I do appreciate the time and the effort you art taking in understanding and improving this  thing that Im trying to do here.
This project, My coins, as an art concept is very very complex since it is using reality and real life materials as if it is a medium I can mold to my will. I did not intended to make that clear right from the beginning, it would not be easy to get through with it to a well educated art community and I don't expect people here to get is as such. The only importance of keep stating the artistic quality of this work right here on the thread was for legal issues which of course where the first to be brought up. I will post and explain much more about my art as time comes.. at the moment I do not expect people to buy my coins for believing in the quality of my art. In my NILIcoins thread I will very soon post picks ans info about my art.

There is however one point  every mathematician and code writer can understand better then most artists (though they too use that faculty all the time). When a writer tell you that his fictional characters are the ones writing the story it is because just like in math, once you set the  underline rules by which this character is operating, every situation you present to your character, it will act with in character according the first rules you set for it. Unless it is out of character and then you as the writer have to justify that. Which means that you present the reader with a good  proof which explains that. this justification for the out-of-character behaviour is the things that moves the story along and makes it interesting.

The more fundamental your rule setting is the simpler it must get. Most of what we consider to be fundamental is very often set on even more fundamental structure that is set in a different realm. all of our science rules are set on a structure that is based on our social behaviour and rules. As a conceptual artist, im trained at sifting through that mess,.Trained by the means of experienced using my most natural tendencies which are extremely rational though not appear that way in first sight.

One more important note regarding that rule setting...It is how you make something out of nothing, or something else out of something. You set the rules and then you have to put it in motion . I was once was titled by a very well educated art critic as " the most self referenced artist he ever encountered" . Self referencing is that motion. You set a rule and then you start using by applying to situations. If with in one peice you use the rules clear and sound it will always make sense since it is the thing that set that reality, not the other way around. whether that reality is a painting, a story or real life.. In real life however ,you need the others consent to that rule. that consent is of the most fundamental rules of all thing which differ reality from fiction.... but on this ...later.

Rational x = Risk y
 

*sorry, just posted that before completing (was rushed out and pressed post without checking)
454  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] [ICOKE] Coca-Cola Coin on: November 07, 2014, 09:56:18 AM
I actually did these kind of things for work, working in the movie industry but this I don't consider my art.

Did you enjoy doing the work itself and/or the resulting artifacts and outcomes?  If so then I would consider it, at least in part, "your art."

Can you show us some of your best art that is yours, under what my definition of "yours" would be?  (The ones where you most enjoyed the work or product.)

I'm enjoying the PMs, we agree on much.  We disagree on some critical things (like if we should even consider the "count" of point particles at a point in space) but nothing that creates any real fundamental dispute.  I look forward to seeing more on your take of our shared reality.

We may or may not end up agreeing on our definition of art.  I'm interested to see if you can do this art in a way that we can collectively as a society agree is a work of art.  If not they'll probably be right and "the system" will likely come down on you.

If so, kudos would certainly be in order.

I would agree that it could be done in such a way as you intend, but I don't agree that it has quite been demonstrated as of yet.  You need to stop hinting at it and "do the work of art that it should be" or the plot will be lost before you've actually even begun.

(Interesting IANAL side note, relating to my earlier post.  Under most Berne convention interpretation He/She/They have not demonstrated any IP violation yet.  I suspect they don't intend to, and are smart enough to actually know how not to.  Understanding and abiding by the Berne Convention is not hard.  There are special considerations for things like international trade, but I suspect these considerations will be accounted for.  No-one rational would attempt what is being attempted here without appropriate legal consultation involved.  Personally I don't see any real indication that Nili is irrational.)

Stop testing the waters and go all out, come what may.

Don't forget to continue to have fun with it, or all will be lost.  It won't be your art anymore.

Be happy.

I do appreciate the time and the effort you art taking in understanding and improving this  thing that Im trying to do here.
This project, My coins, as an art concept is very very complex since it is using reality and real life materials as if it is a medium I can mold to my will. I did not intended to make that clear right from the beginning, it would not be easy to get through with it to a well educated art community and I don't expect people here to get is as such. The only importance of keep stating the artistic quality of this work right here on the thread was for legal issues which of course where the first to be brought up. I will post and explain much more about my art as time comes.. at the moment I do not expect people to buy my coins for believing in the quality of my art. In my NILIcoins thread I will very soon post picks ans info about my art.

There is however one point  every mathematician and code writer can understand better then most artists (though they too use that faculty all the time). When a writer tell you that his fictional characters are the ones writing the story it is because just like in math, once you set the  underline rules by which this character is operating, every situation you present to your character, it will act with in character according the first rules you set for it. Unless it is out of character and then you as the writer have to justify that. Which means that you present the reader with a good  proof which explains that. this justification for the out-of-character behaviour is the things that moves the story along and makes it interesting.

The more fundamental your rule setting is the simpler it must get. Most of what we consider to be fundamental is very often set on even more fundamental structure that is set in a different realm. all of our science rules are set on a structure that is based on our social behaviour and rules. As a conceptual artist, im trained at sifting through that mess,.Trained by the means of experienced using my most natural tendencies which are extremely rational though not appear that way in first sight.

One more important note regarding that rule setting...It is how you make something out of nothing, or something else out of something. You set the rules and then you have to put it in motion . I was once titled by a very well educated art critic as " the most self referenced artist he ever encountered" . Self referencing is that motion. you set a rule and then you start using by applying to situations. If with in one peice you use the rules clear and sound it will always make sense since it is the thing that set that reality, not the other way around. whether that reality is a painting, a story or real life.. In real life however ,you need the others consent to that rule. that consent is of the most fundamental rules of all thing which differ reality from fiction.... but on this ...later.

Rational x = Risk y
 
455  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] [ICOKE] Coca-Cola Coin on: November 06, 2014, 09:51:45 PM
Nili , what your doing IS ILLEAGLE

Of course whether or not this is true becomes a jurisdictional question.  However let us assume for the moment that we are talking about jurisdictions that apply the Berne Convention, which is the international treaty for intellectual property law.  Assuming this convention, we can simply apply what is known as the "Berne Three Step Test" (found in Article 9(2) of the international treaty) to determine if this usage is legitimate or not.

Article 9 reads:
Quote
(1) Authors of literary and artistic works protected by this Convention shall have the exclusive right of authorizing the reproduction of these works, in any manner or form.

(2) It shall be a matter for legislation in the countries of the Union to permit the reproduction of such works in certain special cases, provided that such reproduction does not conflict with a normal exploitation of the work and does not unreasonably prejudice the legitimate interests of the author.

(3) Any sound or visual recording shall be considered as a reproduction for the purposes of this Convention.

Did coke give NILI special authorization? (Probably not.)

Is NILI's reproductive use covered under a special exemption in their jurisdiction which does not conflict with a normal exploitation and which does not unreasonably prejudice Coke's interests?
  Is NILI's reproductive use covered under a special exemption in their jurisdiction?
  If so, does this use conflict with a normal exploitation of the work?
  If not, does the use prejudice the legitimate interests of Coke?
(This is all highly dependent on both the jurisdiction in question, as well as Coke's own usage of and legitimate interest in the works within that jurisdiction!!)

Is the reproduction a sound or visual recording? (I think we can all agree, at least, that the answer to this is yes.)

So it is not as simple as "NILI reproduced some IP so now they are screwed" but a question of in what jurisdiction that reproduction was made *AND* if it happens to be a legitimate special exemption in that jurisdiction *AND* what Coke's own ("allowed") exploitation *AND* interests in the matter are.

This is assuming that the Berne convention even applies.  The laws are certainly very different in places that do not adopt this convention.

EDIT: Disclaimer: IANAL!!

you are hired, HMC. :-) (I pay in mouse coins)
456  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] [ICOKE] Coca-Cola Coin on: November 06, 2014, 09:47:25 PM
Maybe!!  I know Coke is aware of this, and maybe view it as a joke...  I guess only time will tell.

Maybe they are just explicitly cautious to not end up involved with the "Chilling Effects" list?  (Seems likely, since they are one of the very few big companies not already very well represented there.)

Probably the mouse coin will see some response first.  Walt&Co seem to have no reservations about sending out a C&D at the drop of a hat.

Thus far there is no big money in that. If they aware of it as you say their lawyers are hard at work figuring this "crypto-shit" out, while  puling their hair trying to figure out what the hell is this thing. art-coin.
They must be prepared for the scenario that this will take off. someone there is doing crash curse on bitcoin and the poor thing have to learn all about counterparty too. :-)
 
457  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] [ICOKE] Coca-Cola Coin on: November 06, 2014, 09:37:07 PM
Nili is doing this because he's a kid who doesn't understand the law.

I find it interesting that you assume Nili is both young and male.

I'm pretty sure that you're wrong on both guesses.

It is fun to be considered a guy of 20 years old. Well I'm a gal with a child in that age.
458  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] [ICOKE] Coca-Cola Coin on: November 06, 2014, 09:32:10 PM
I think NILI's doing this because:
He lives in a non US country, thinking there is no way Coke will spend the time and resources to hunt him down
If by chance this gets exposure to the media, someone my buy his shit
So by announcing that he is doing coke-coin, the mouse coin, ect...  I think he's hoping some media outlet picks up on it

Nili, if your work was as good as this (www.sandaworld.com) I would invest in your art.  But from what I have seen you come nowhere close!!  Plus Tsuneo donates loads of art for Charity.  Now this is an artist with TALENT!!!

I actually did these kind of things for work, working in the movie industry but this I don't consider my art.
459  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] [ICOKE] Coca-Cola Coin on: November 06, 2014, 04:57:25 PM
But Warhol didn't sell shares of his art for Campbell's coin!!!

The technology to allow that did not exist yet....but today any big artist can sell his works for his coins only. Thus open that market to  many more investors which can all have a piece in one big  piece . But to actually do this, the coin itself as art, one need to be really ..... well stupid... or maybe ....not so stupid
460  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] [ICOKE] Coca-Cola Coin on: November 06, 2014, 04:45:33 PM
anyway if they are going to sue me or only buy me' which everway my art and my coins are going to be worth much more.

I'm reminded of an old saying that "the best thing that can happen to a business is to be bought or sued by a larger business."

I would assume this applies to crypto-business just the same!

My better half (who is also an artist by trade, with a marketing minor at university) raised an interesting question: "Could the very act of poking the bear in this novel way be considered a form of performance art in and of itself?"

being online thus a real time act, makes it a sort of performance in that sense...
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