I'm sorry that I came back, but I was just too tempted to point out that buying a car doesn't prove BTC intrinsic value.  The working time spent on creating the BTC core software, creating the mining hardware, creating the support services, electricity used, demand of product etc. prove that BTC  has calculable intrinsic value. Buying a car only shows that BTC has value, without pointing out if the value is intrinsic or speculative. And that was already proven when first bitcoins were sold with couple of cents per coin. And it is still proven by exchanges that trade bitcoins for a certain price.
My problem was not with your car and I also like exotic pieces of machinery. I was just pointing out that maybe it isn't useful to create certain type of first-impressions. When the bitcoin market will be flooded with people who are vulnerable to these types of marketing techniques, then the outcome isn't pretty. These people are unstable and vulnerable to all kinds of simple types manipulations and bitcoin is not ready for that. Bitcoin needs more serious people who are able to be supportive to the entire evolutionary process. And these types of marketing techniques will make BTC unattractive to serious and ethical people without who BTC will not survive.
I see bitcoin as a step in monetary evolution, so it hurts me to see it treated like a standard pyramid scheme.

I'll try not to respond again, because I see that my observation aggravates people here. But I hope that you'll think about my line of thought.

Take care and drive safe

The bitcoin market volume is decreasing on the time of uncertainty because of the nature of the market and also the traders. People who are trading futures, are mostly people who make quick decisions based on "real reasons" about the value of stock. The bitcoin market is mostly manipulated by a relatively small group of people who have the power to make the price go up or down without any "real reason" and the market is sheepish enough that it will follow. That is why the bitcoin market will freeze on uncertainty because most are just waiting "what will the whales do", so they can go the same way.

Ok, I see that I opened a really nasty can of worms with my observation. I wish you merry christmas and hope that you will also see the point that I tried to make.



I actually haven't seen any Chanel stockholders showing their cars to attract new stockholders. And also it is a little hard to understand how can you put a cryptocurrency in the comparable group with a fashion company :/
But please, let's end it here. I didn't know what I was getting myself into with making this observation. Carry on with all your fun talks about luxury machinery

I'm not attacking Goat's persona nor his past actions regarding bitcoin. So no need to defend him against that. I was just pointing out that maybe more subtlety should be considered if one doesn't like the pyramid scheme reputation that bitcoin has.

Pyramid schemes tactics work with simple-minded people and they scare away smart people who have any ethics at all. I personally don't want to be involved in anything that uses pyramid scheme tactics in marketing. Do you?

Congratulations on your car, but threads like this insinuate the pyramid scheme reputation that bitcoin has
"Look, I have a Lambo! Buy in and you can also someday own a Lambo!". Most of the pyramid scheme resembling businesses operate like this, with early adopters talking about their cars and villas during presentations. So, enjoying your bitcoin wealth with a little subtlety wouldn't hurt

I hate to say it, but the bitcoin market is getting uglier every day. The rises and falls make less and less sense and the news that change the price direction, are more and more full of hot air, meaning solely created for market manipulation. It feels like the market is owned by 20 people tops, who communicate with eachother with goals to scam as much avarage people out of their money as possible. It feels like most of the market has been hijacked by a group of "grey area" wallstreet players that can steer the market to every direction their greedy little minds like to.
I think that the people who are making "predictions based on calculations" about the future price are just creating illusions to justify their gambling habits. The only people who know the future are the few who actually have power to create the future as they see fit.
The more bitcoin gains strenght, the more the market is getting uglier. In the past, bitcoin used to attract tech-wise people who were interested in monetary alternatives, but now, most of the people come because they only want to buy low and sell high.
I still think that bitcoin is a great piece of technology when considering the security and decentralization it offers. But I think that cryptos have a looong way to go, before a coin with a decent market platform is created with a decent system to handle the new coin supply.
I think that with the current direction, bitcoin will have only about 2 years to live. The market will get uglier and uglier until all of the trust is lost in the market. Bitcoin security hasn't been breached and that trust still remains, but the community has ignored the threats that come with the unregulated market. For instance, bitcoin.org is still promoting MtGox as their first choice of exchange for heaven's sake.. The exchange service that is highly incompetent or deliberately manipulating the market for their personal gain and the dev is still promoting them?!

I think that people who are interested in cryptos and have larger visions then just buying low and selling high, should really start thinking about the direction where the unregulated markets are taking bitcoin. Otherwise bitcoin will be the little coin that had potential to be great but greed and stupidity ruined it all.

I'm 5% BTC 95% Fiat. I feel quite certain that the price will drop more and the general downtrend will end sometimes in the start or middle of january. Then we will probably see couple of months of relative stability between 300 and 400, before it will start going up again.

Most of the faults of MtGox aren't because of local financial rules, but because their inner errors. Right now people can't withdraw their bitcoins because of an technical error that has been present for a long time. Nothing is announced about this problem and support isn't mobilized to help the customers that need help. It plainly seems like MtGox just doesn't care and sends a message "we are what we are, so deal with it".
It seems like the owners of MtGox are using their profits to live the good life and investing in the reliability of their services isn't exactly a priority. I'm not gathering an angry mob with pitchforks here to burn the building down, but I am asking the question, should sites like bitcoin.org really promote mtgox as the first gateway to the world of bitcoin? It will cause mistrust among the newcomers who see that the community will guide them towards services that are either incompetent or fraudulent. I think that the community should take a more public stance on MtGox and say that this kind of carelessness isn't tolerated. Nothing will change if people like me announce that they are not using mtgox anymore. Things change when sites like bitcoin.org take responsibility on what they are promoting.

But don't you agree with me that pages like bitcoin.org should not promote MtGox?

What are these "a lot of bitcoin related businesses" that have very slow transaction times as of late? I only see MtGox problems reported and I  myself have only experienced bitcoin withdrawal problems with MtGox. I see the first reported problems of mtgox bitcoin withdrawals that reach to the year 2011. And to top everything off, their support services will answer you in 3 days if you are lucky.
I don't see your logic in "I would feel a great deal more safer trading with a company that has history of problems than a exchange that has no history at all.". Should I also trust Bernard Madoff  because he is widely known but has history of problems?
The main thing I am asking here, is why is the bitcoin community supporting and promoting MtGox when their services are clearly unreliable. I understand that the decision is for everyone to make themselves, but trustworthy bitcoin information channels should not promote mtgox and should report more about the constant problems that they're having.

Currently MtGox users are waiting up to 5 days for their Bitcoin withdrawals. I am not talking about bank transfers of fiat money, but bitcoin withdrawals that should be instantly entered to the blockchain. As I looked at the past, MtGox had the same problem since 2011 and they haven't still fixed it. Considering their volumes and fees, I find it absurd that they are unable to fix important technical problems for years.
As I read about the history of MtGox, I can see many technical issues that are not addressed and I see a lot of complaining about their unresponsive support services. But still their volume is still high and their customer base big.

Why does the bitcoin community just accept these faults and does nothing? I am not talking about single users who close their mtgox accounts but I am talking about the community leaders and main information hubs that still suggest mtgox as an recommended exhange service. For instance bitcoin.org suggestion shows mtgox first, describing it as "Well-known bitcoin exchange. Sign up for an account, verify yourself and you can purchase a large number of bitcoins.". Shouldn't the description be "Bitcoin exchange that is well-know for various problems"?
Companies like mtgox shouldn't stay in business, but what gives them the big customer base they have, is that new people are guided to mtgox by the various information hubs in the bitcoin community. Shouldn't community leaders take bigger responsibility and guide new people to exchanges that actually deserve new customers?

Bitcoin community should inform newcomers about the dangers involved when dealing with MtGox. MtGox only preys upon new people who don't have experience when dealing with them. MtGox is giving the bitcoin market system a bad name and it shouldn't be just ignored and left as it is.
For instance bitcoin.org guides you straight to MtGox while saying "Well-known bitcoin exchange. Sign up for an account, verify yourself and you can purchase a large number of bitcoins.". What it should say is "Bitcoin exchange that is well-known for various problems". The bitcoin community shouldn't just accept the low quality standards that MtGox has to offer. It is absurd that these faults are only discussed by a few people in this forum and the rest will just accept them as they are. People should be warned and the community leaders should be the ones who do it on pages that are widely visited.

I've  been having suspicions about MtGox and thinking if their faults are caused by incompetence or malignance. For a company with this income, it is hard to see how they're unable to provide a stable trading platform. Personal profit could be made in orchestrating several "accidents" that would change the market rapidly and therefor enable foresight of events. Right now, every bitcoin in MtGox is trapped for 24-48 hours, not being able to withdraw while Litecoin price surge is happening at other exchanges..

Questions that spring to mind are:
a) Are these accidents coincidence or something else?
b) If this is something else, then what could be done about this? There is no regulation against malignant actions like this in the cryptocurrency exchange system.
c) Should there be more discussions about this subject an about the integrity of the cryptocurrency exchange system?
d) Would information campaigns help? Campaigns that inform newcomers about the trustworthiness of certain exchanges. In this way, cryptocurrency community leaders can regulate the market integrity themselves, without asking for government assistance.

I think MtGox is the worst thing to happen to cryptos in general.
I have lost about 40 000$ while not being able to withdraw my BTC to invest in LTC. I will NEVER EVER use mtgox again and will tell everyone this. The level of incompetence is beyond belief. They actually process bitcoin withdrawals as long as SEPA transfers.

I think that MtGox is the worst thing to happen to cryptos in general. I just lost about 20 000$ because MtGox can't even process simple bitcoin withdrawals in time.

Just after withdrawing out of MtGox I discovered that their bitcoin transaction can take 24h?!?!?!
How the hell can this be. Do they have baboons behind PCs with bitcoin-qt and typing in the transactions manually?!
In an very important time I discover that MtGox is beyond incompetent. I will never use them again and I will tell everyone I meet to not use them. I will curse the day they decided to enter the bitcoin market system.  Their incompetence will be very costly to me.

Well said.
I always watch where I talk about bitcoin, just because the community is full of people like that. These are the people who are visiting self-help classes that teach them how to be millionaires without any work. They are graving any new get-rich-quick scheme sthat presents itself to them and they will defend it with intense emotion. For those people, saying things like "BTC will crash soon", is like telling christians "Jesus is a myth". They will defend their dogmas till the end.
I think that the real value lies in cryptocurrencies in general and BTC contribution was mostly to show that decentralized and democratic financial system is actually possible. I think that the development of cryptos will get more complex and those people will be filtered off who can only come online to buy their bitcoin, so they could soon be rich. Cryptos will have an important part in the future and many people will become wealthy by working with cryptos. The amount of fools is just the faults of the current raw situation the cryptos are in. Most of these fools will lose their money anyway and will have no significant place in the future of cryptos.

You can't blame me for trying to tell the bitcoin community that there is a way that would be beneficial for the entire community.

If the solution will come, then it will probably come from a group that is small and efficient. The group will made by individuals who have the highest influence. Those who think that they are more efficient alone then with others are just bad at teamwork. If only the right people would hear my reasoning, so they could direct the sector so, that will go better for everyone involved.

Right now I'm going to sleep. i'll be looking forward to reading all of your replies tomorrow.

Honestly, I only have hope that people will hear me, who are important enough to have a say in the direction of cryptos. The banking sector is working together quite efficiently, why couldn't the cryptocurrency sector do the same? The crypto sector isn't just full of emotional teenagers who have no concept of synergy.