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5041  Economy / Currency exchange / Re: Question regarding international payments and exchange rate calculations on: August 06, 2012, 07:06:07 AM
Now, such multiple rate differences occur between all other currencies as well so the financial community must have a way of dealing with it. Do the parties split the difference? If not, who eats the difference, the payer or the payee?

Even with organizations like PayPal who do huge volumes of these "cross-border" transactions, the rate they will charge for foreign currency conversions will change based on current conditions at the time and the rate may or may not necessarily align with the official exchange spot rates (e.g., those published on http://www.ecb.int/stats/exchange/eurofxref/html/index.en.html ).

With bitcoin not being terribly liquid, order size is a big factor as well.

I think at this early point in the bitcoin economy, most services have taken the route of assessing a slightly larger than necessary premium against spot and/or have made the fee big enough to accommodate market inefficiencies where the bitcoin markets don't closely match forex spot rates.  

A service that is doing fiat on both ends probably should consider bitcoin only as one of the possible routes.  If a funds transfer route that travels through a pair of bitcoin currency markets offers the least expensive path (fees inclusive) then it goes through bitcoin otherwise it routes through other foreign currency markets.  Unfortunately, the point at which the banking system intersects with the Bitcoin exchanges is something that differs so wildly from not just one exchange to the next but one bank to the next (e.g., Intersango UK bank might be slow or down, whereas Intersango's SEPA is functioning normal).  This means each route has wildly varying fees, speed,  volume limits, etc., that automating the routing process is harder than it would seem necessary.

But the consideration of bitcoin's exhange rate versus forex spot is something happening already on an individual level by consumers.  Last month when the Euro buyers were rushing into bitcoin, there was frequently a 3% or more premium by selling your BTCs for EUR instead of USDs (after factoring for the EUR/USD exchange rate).  So if a consumer found purchases that could be paid for using a SEPA transfer, the consumer chooses that route and as a result all the gain from routing the transfer through BTC was enjoyed by the consumer and not the seller.  

There was some article about one of the P2P forex services, either CurrencyFair or TransferWise, I forget, where users of the service were praising it for helping them avoid the exchange rate gouging they previously had been paying for settling with a foreign creditor.  

So it sounds less like there are actually businesses worrying about trying to be fair in offering exchange "at cost" but instead they are worrying about earning maximum profit from these international payments.
 
What would be nice to see start happening is some companies further up the supply chain start to accept bitcoins.  That way if a company has let's say 2% of their revenues come from bitcoins, they simply route those proceeds towards their accounts payable with vendors who accept bitcoins and entirely avoid then having to convert revenues made with bitcoins into fiat each time.
5042  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Can you trust this website: mtgix.com on: August 06, 2012, 05:37:08 AM
Hi

I just saw this website sells Bitcoins, can it be trusted ? I found no discussion about it here.

No, it is a  scam.

The same operator scammer used to run Easzpay, and then had MtGax for about two days before it got shut down.

 - http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=98251.0
5043  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Trading bitcoins in China on: August 06, 2012, 05:34:07 AM
In a few months I will be returning to Australia and I'm wondering how easy it is to get money on and off an exchange there?

For larger amounts, of course, wire transfer is the fastest / least expensive.  Mt. Gox or other exchanges offer this.

In addition to Spend Bitcoins there is BitPiggy (though they've had problems with their bank on and off).   CryptoXChange is based in Australia, though I don't know if they offer an AUD withdrawal method.  They do take AUD cash deposits.

The list of options for selling (cash-out) bitcoins:
 - http://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Selling_bitcoins
5044  Economy / Trading Discussion / Re: Interesting conversation with a retailer who formerly accepted Bitcoin on: August 06, 2012, 05:22:40 AM

Also, the Checkout Buttons for Mt. Gox have a checkbox where you can indicate that you would like autosell (to have the bitcoins sold at market to USDs).

I could not figure out how to make the mt. gox checkout button dynamic... When creating the button you have to put in a value... even if you change that value in the code they give you, once the customer clicks the button and goes to mtgox site the original amount shows back up again. This makes the button useless for shopping carts with different values at checkout.


The one you create using the Checkout Button web tool is only like a "pay now" button for a static amount.

For dynamic pricing, the ecommerce/cart script you are using calls the API to get the URL and transaction ID:
 - http://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/MtGox/API/HTTP/v1#Order_Creation

Then your template uses that transaction ID for the html form:
 - http://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/MtGox/API/HTTP/v1#Dynamic_Button

To use the API, you'll need an API key and secret that you've added to your Mt. Gox account created using the "Merchant" role.

Then those two pieces of data are used to build the request header.  It is a little technical (i.e., a little programming knowledge is helpful).
 - http://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/MtGox/API/HTTP#Authentication

I don't know how easy it would be then to tweak your shopping cart software to be compatible with Mt. Gox.  They have one shopping cart they work with -- Magento.  They've released their extension for it:
 - https://github.com/MtGox/magento

Here's an overview of Mt. Gox merchant tools:
- http://mtgox.com/merchant
5045  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Technical Support / Re: Delete the wallet balances on: August 06, 2012, 03:55:24 AM
I have used Bitcoin-QT to send all my bitcoins to a different address thinking I would send it back and everything will be normal but when I sent them back bitcoind shows twice the original balance. Is there a way to just delete all the balances in all my wallets without changing the private/public keys so they are still usable?

Free monies!

That is odd though.  Can you try launching your bitcoin client using -rescan and see if the problem goes away?

As far as "all the balances" I'm not sure what you are referring to.  Bitcoin calculates the balance based on the transactions in the blockchain for the addresses that you have in your wallet.  So there's no "balances" stored by the client -- it is a calculated number.

5046  Economy / Trading Discussion / Re: Jeers to mtgox on: August 06, 2012, 03:39:51 AM
Mtgox has been unresponsive to emails with this situation and when I try to withdraw the coins back into my own wallet, the coins are frozen because my account is under "review".

Wow ... that's interesting.  So was your account just fine until you requested to be verified?

If that is the case, then the recommendation for anyone thinking about verifying should first then withdraw funds from Mt. Gox so that there is a zero balance in both their BTC and USD (or whatever)  accounts and only then go through the verification process.
5047  Economy / Service Discussion / Re: Is spendbitcoins legit? on: August 06, 2012, 03:09:46 AM
Has anyone done business with them, if so how quick are they?

It is good to do put feelers out, but Spend Bitcoins has a pretty good track record.

Here's their primary thread.
 - http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=8864.0

They've been operating since May, 2011 -- meaning they are long in the tooth in the Bitcoin world.

Every exchange has disruptions every once in a while, but depositing cash and getting bitcoins in exchange is a pretty straightforward practice for them.

They aren't the only method though, but for what you need their services should do just fine.

Here's a full list of exchange options:
 - http://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Buying_bitcoins
5048  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Is it technically possible for someone to guess a bitcoin address with money in? on: August 06, 2012, 03:01:41 AM
I can do it. I could crack yours within 30mins easy. Me guessing your btc address from scratch would be easier than what you are suggesting!

 Huh
5049  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Anyway i can get BITCOINS instantly in the uk? any trustworthy vendors? on: August 06, 2012, 02:58:45 AM
im new to bitcoins and would appreciate help from anyone...

Those in the UK don't have the benefit of a cash-deposit method like those in the U.S., Canada, India, Australia, Brazil, and Russia do:
 - http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=87843.msg1039728#msg1039728

But in the UK you can purchase UKash vouchers.  Those can then be redeemed through a CashU account and used to purchase bitcoins from Bitcoin Nordic:

 - http://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/CashU
 - http://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/UKash


Bitcoin Nordic accepts cash-by-mail (GBPs) for the purchase of bitcoins.  The are in Denmark:
 - http://www.BitcoinNordic.com


You might also want to place a buy order on the #bitcoin-otc marketplace:
 - http://bitcoin-otc.com/vieworderbook.php
 - http://webchat.freenode.net/?channels=#bitcoin-otc-foyer
 - http://bitcoin-otc.com/viewratings.php  - The #bitcoin-otc marketplace Web of Trust (WoT)


Also, you might see if there are any sellers in your area listed with LocalBitcoins:
 - http://www.LocalBitcoins.com


There is a local trader that will sell bitcoins in amounts of at least 10 BTC for cash, in-person:
 - http://londonbitcoinexchange.wordpress.com

There was another thread recently in which an individual offered to do a trade with a bank transfer:
 - http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=96606.0

That was learned from:
 - http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=95833.0
5050  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Introduction: Ian Bakewell on: August 06, 2012, 02:51:24 AM
all the hype around the huge spike made its way into my circles

Are you referring to last year's or this most recent spike (from $5 ish to $11 ?) 

I don't know there was much hype ... the other than the Ars Technica I haven't seen much from media with large readership.   Was there?   (say, compared to the type of media attention a stock would get if it were to double in price in 60 days).
5051  Other / Off-topic / Re: Sorry, y'all: Game Over. I'm about to buy all the bitcoin. on: August 06, 2012, 01:40:31 AM
Aaaaaaaand they're back:




Quote
   Domain Name: MTGIX.COM
   Registrar: SHANGHAI YOVOLE NETWORKS INC.
   Whois Server: whois.yovole.com
   Referral URL: http://www.yovole.com
   Name Server: NS.YOVOLE.COM
   Name Server: NS1.YOVOLE.COM
   Status: clientTransferProhibited
   Updated Date: 03-aug-2012
   Creation Date: 03-aug-2012
   Expiration Date: 03-aug-2013

Does anyone who speaks the language call or write to their domain registrar ( http://www.yovole.com ) and request a take-down?   
This must have been a nice and profitable scam to be this persistent after both easzpay.com and mtgax.com got shut down.   They keep posting where bots pick it up and retweet, like forum and reddit threads, etc.
5052  Economy / Trading Discussion / Re: MtGOX and SEPA withdrawals? on: August 06, 2012, 12:38:47 AM
If 'GOX doesn't work, What other good SEPA exchanges are there?

Bitstamp sees a lot of SEPA transfers from proceeds of bitcoins sold on their BTC/USD market.  There's also Intersango,   Bitcoin.de, Bitcurex and others.

 - http://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Selling_bitcoins
5053  Bitcoin / Mining / Re: Using mining gear for other financial purposes? on: August 06, 2012, 12:16:48 AM
I think I saw a thread somewhere on the forum that came up with solutions on where to utilize the computing power most people may have here.

This thread?

 - http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=94192.0
5054  Other / Off-topic / Re: help a friend in need on: August 05, 2012, 11:58:29 PM
or anything else that may assist me

This won't help you but I wanted to put it out there.

At one point (in early to mid 2011) there was a rip service where you pay in bitcoins a fee and the person would then rip the movie and send you a link to a torrent for it after it had been ripped and then uploaded.  The provider's intention was to increase the number of different titles that could be found.

Because it was an anonymous request (tormail e-mail address or something like that, and payment in bitcoins) this was really a pretty clever idea.  It only got a few requests and then Witcoin (bitcoin community where the service was offered) went away and I've not seen anything like it since.
 - http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=37281.msg459323#msg459323
5055  Economy / Lending / Re: Bryan Micon's List of BTC Ponzi Schemes that should not be listed as "Lending" on: August 05, 2012, 11:00:12 PM
The authors of a study to measure the Silk Road estimate the volume to be about $1.9 million USD per month.  
 - http://arxiv.org/abs/1207.7139

So, let's say about 42,000 BTC per week flows through SR, or about 6K BTC per day.   You don't need hundreds of thousands of bitcoins to mix 6K BTC per day, and the fees for doing that are maybe -- taking even an extremely high percentage, 5% or just 300 per day earned.

At one point in time there was a shared belief that a chunk of the profits for this supposed lending were coming from serving as a mixer for SR.  At one point in time that was plausible.

I've no idea if these monthly SR volume estimates are accurate but even if the real volume were double or triple the estimated numbers, there's still just not all that many bitcoins that could be coming from SR business to where it could even possibly be a significant source of profits to any "lender" or mixing provider at the current scale.

So cross SR off the list as to one of the potential reasons that BS&T could be functioning as a business (versus being just a ponzi)
5056  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: un-userfriendliness limiting bitcoin? on: August 05, 2012, 09:48:20 PM
An account-based webwallet is quite similar to a Paypal after all.

And that's what (Y! Combinator's) CoinBase is aiming to do .. make using bitcoin appear little different from the experience when using PayPal.

As far as ease of use, the mobile clients are pretty user friendly.  I don't know how something like BitcoinSpinner for Android could be any simpler, for instance.

(well, some way to automatically backup the wallet's "master private key" without having to go through the "take a picture of the QR code" would be one method, but that's just a little unusual and inconvenient, not something necessarily difficult.)
5057  Economy / Trading Discussion / Re: How to buy large quantity in cash on: August 05, 2012, 09:07:58 PM
Thank you very much! I would like to buy for example $ 200,000 of Bitcoin in CASH!

Appears that you have several problems to solve then.  

There won't be a single direct seller or even sets of them with the capacity to accept a couple hundred grand in cash in exchange for bitcoins.  

So your first problem is essentially comes down to ways to move cash (an offline non-reversible medium of exchange) into an electronic form that is compatible with bitcoin.

Of course, the banking system does this very well for not a whole lot of money.  You simply deposit cash and send a wire transfer to an exchange that can accommodate the size of your order

Using the buy calculator from Clark Moody shows that you can accomplish a $200K USD purchase in a single buy and pay on average about 5% above spot (using the market depth at the time) at Mt. Gox.

Buying chunks at a time will give those who perform arbitrage against the other markets (e.g., the BTC/USD at BitFloor, the BTC/EUR at Intersango, etc) a chance to bring supply to you but at the same time doing that runs the risk of tipping off other traders that will front-run you by anticipating that you will be buying further.

But that's definitely something that can be accommodated solely on a single exchange without too much of a penalty.

Now that the value of all bitcoin's calculated at the market exchange rate (which some refer to as the "market cap") is about $100 milliion, a $200K purchase doesn't move the exchange rate like it used to.   It is still a very significant amount though.

Knowing in advance the volume and the likely effect on price you then the derivatives available might be employed.

If you don't immediately need the entire bitcoin proceeds from your purchase at the exchange, then you might buy CALL options for some of your purchase.  This allows you to have a known upper bound on price for those.  So then you start buying bitcoins on the open market for the remaining quantity you don't already have CALL options for.  If the exchange rate remains below your exercise price you can keep buying and sell to close your CALL option to get back most or all of the premium you paid for it.

There are quote a few methods available to you to accomplish your aim.

Now, I was purposely being obtuse here.  You specifically mentioned cash, and you probably did not want to consider the option of cash being sent through the bankiing system.

So that brings to the fore the other problems you need to solve.   And these other problems aren't quite as easy to solve.

There are other methods to convert cash into electronic form.  

Countries:

USA
Europe
Brazil
Bolivia

In the USA, of course, there is BitFloor which accepts deposits at Chase bank and Wells Fargo. There are no fees, though there are daily AML limits.  An additional method includes FastCash4Bitcoins.com (deposit cash at Bank of America, costs about 1% currently you can even buy at a 1% discount).  Get-Bitcoin and QuickBitcoins.net accept cash-by-mail.  Most remaining methods like BitInstant, AurumXChange and others use TrustCash to accept cash at major banks.  There is a fee for this, under 4% for larger amounts.

You would hit daily limits even using a combination of all of these well before you even start knocking away at your $200K buying intention.

In Europe, there are currently fewer options for turning cash into electronic form.  There is Bitcoin Nordic which accepts cash-by-mail (USD, EUR, and other currencies) .  There is the option to buy UKash vouchers, and to redeem those through a CashU online account which can then be used to purchase bitcoins -- also at Bitcoin Nordic and at MercaBit.eu as well.  That is an expensive method and there are daily limits as well.

In Brazil, cash deposits are accepted at Banco Recomendito and using Boletto (via BitInstant, QuickBitcoins.net, and others).  Daily limits apply here as well.  UKash vouchers can also be purchased in Brazil and redeemed though CashU for funding at Bitcoin Nordic or redeemed directly through MercaBit.eu

Bolivia too is another place where UKash vouchers can be purchased and redeemed through CashU with funds used to purchase bitcoins through Bitcoin Nordic or redeemed directly through MercaBit.eu.

While there are quite a number of individual methods to move smaller amounts of cash to bitcoins, they do not combine easily to allow fast conversion of such a large amount.

There are likely other approaches.  For instance, offering to provide bitcoin cash-out service will yield bitcoins in exchange for an outlay of cash.

Here's an example of a person trading bitcoins for cash in which the cash is then sent by mail or deposited into a bank account.   You might consider offering that service.  Even if this is done for small amounts per-trade though, there still might be restrictions on offering this though, depending on your jurisdiction.

Now this may seem like quite a hassle, but consider how a about a year ago just to do this type of cash buy with just $20K would have been even more of a hassle.  The options available are developing and improving continuously.

There's probably an approach that works uniquely well in each geographic location, but the methods all have a common denominator (bitcoin traded for something of value) and this exchange can complete without needing services from the banking system.
5058  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Which Paypal TOS forbids BTC? on: August 05, 2012, 04:43:57 PM
Well, I'm just speaking from experience, I have never gotten the raw end of the deal through paypal, I'm not sure why everyone seems to always have problems with paypal, but I never have.

It eventually becomes a numbers game.  If you are only doing small person-to-person trades, infrequently and neither side has chargeback issues, you probably can keep trading bitcoins using PayPal for quite some time.

But when you start trading suddenly for larger amounts (e.g., more than a thousand dollars a month or a multiple of previous monthly average amount) or you start doing a ton of transactions -- especially involving funds from the buyer's credit card, or either you or your counterparty has chargebacks ... then you are playing with fire.  And you will get burned.

Here's the specific terms:

 - https://cms.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/?cmd=_render-content&content_ID=ua/AcceptableUse_popup

Quote
Prohibited Activities
You may not use the PayPal service for activities that:
3. h) involve currency exchanges or check cashing businesses,


And if you'ld like to see a heartwarming story about the aftermath after Paypal realized some trader was selling bitcoins and followed that discovery by reversing 20 or so recent transactions and then freezing the funds, start here:
 - http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=83679.msg1001602#msg1001602
5059  Economy / Trading Discussion / Re: Interesting conversation with a retailer who formerly accepted Bitcoin on: August 05, 2012, 08:14:10 AM
Couldn't some of these problems be easily worked around if the popular exchanges offered an API that generated send-to addresses that would auto-sell at market?

Some do this already.  With Mt. Gox, it is "autosell":
 - https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/MtGox/API/HTTP/v1#Merchant_System

Also, the Checkout Buttons for Mt. Gox have a checkbox where you can indicate that you would like autosell (to have the bitcoins sold at market to USDs).  Here's a site using that -- see the "site-wide pass" at the bottom:

 - http://chipcollection.com/webstore/ordering.html
5060  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: August 05, 2012, 07:58:01 AM
This was an interesting hour of video.

Congressman Ron Paul's Final Domestic Monetary Policy Subcommittee Hearing

Congressman Paul's subcommittee met on August 2nd, 2012 to examine sound money and parallel currencies.

Bitcoin is discussed briefly, in the context of being a barter currency, at around 48:38.

A part I found interesting was the comments by guest Nathan Lewis on his belief that only large institutions such as Citibank would be the ones to offer an asset-backed (likely gold-backed) private money system.  This started at 58:45 and runs to then end.

I now realize they just don't get decentralization and the power of cryptography.  Nearly every sticking point could have been answered with "except with bitcoin ....".

 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPCFKHCCKF0&feature=player_detailpage#t=2918s
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