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581  Economy / Securities / Re: [BitFunder] Bitcoinplus - 2% weekly bond. Early bird special! Launching Jun 6th on: June 04, 2013, 11:28:12 AM
Anyone interested in investing in these kinds of funds would be very wise to read this very carefully:

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Pirateat40
582  Economy / Securities / Re: [BitFunder] AMC-The Official Active Mining Cooperative Discussion on: June 04, 2013, 11:15:43 AM
Did some more updating on the spreadsheet, accounting for around 7 blocks/hour due to the always increasing network hashrate (lagging difficulty), and around BTC50/day from transaction fees: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ap8MGY67MGwNdE5rRGUtd1hzTE1CVUR3WnZsME02QXc
583  Economy / Securities / Re: [BitFunder] AMC-The Official Active Mining Cooperative Discussion on: June 03, 2013, 06:29:34 PM
Would you mind uploading your spreadsheet to a public google drive file?

Sure. There you go! Grin

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ap8MGY67MGwNdE5rRGUtd1hzTE1CVUR3WnZsME02QXc
584  Economy / Securities / Re: [BitFunder] AMC-The Official Active Mining Cooperative Discussion on: June 03, 2013, 02:57:58 PM
I'm sure AMC will be buying the best available hardware at different times.

I've made my projections based only on buying + assembling Avalon chips, which is the baseline performance expectation. Anyone can use that to decide whether to invest or not.

I don't really care about any 65, 45, 32, 22 or 20nm chips at the moment. I've made my decision based on the possibility that there will be nothing better than those Avalons.

If it turns out we'll get anything better, I'll be Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin !!!
585  Economy / Securities / Re: [BitFunder] AMC-The Official Active Mining Cooperative Discussion on: June 03, 2013, 11:18:18 AM
So, I did some new estimations taking into consideration the latest available info. I am only considering income from Avalon chips atm (baseline performance expectation). Please examine all numbers carefully. Smiley

Please take everything with a grain of salt (!), as these are only previsions based on speculative data. I welcome any contributions for accuracy! Wink

Comments:
  • Upfront Avalon 10k chips cost of BTC1000 for each 10k chip order + board assembly, conservative scenario of 3 month delivery from order to mining start
  • Network hashrate includes AMC hashrate and 103TH in august, and assumes a 15% increase per month (geometric progression, r=1.15), with an estimated 660TH/s by december.
  • Operating expenses estimated at 10%.
  • Share valuation reflects the % of accumulated profit/share divided by the bought share price. A 100% figure means the share price is fully paid by earned dividends.
  • Used my estimations on sold share price as described below (average of 0.0005 for the 1st 5M and 0.0008 for the rest 15M); will correct when precise figures are released
  • In may/14 the issuer starts receiving dividends on 40M general purpose shares, which are free to use for any growth/expansion/investment/salary purposes; in any case, the displayed share valuation takes into account as if no benefits are coming from these shares (so you can see what you'll receive in the worst case scenario)

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ap8MGY67MGwNdE5rRGUtd1hzTE1CVUR3WnZsME02QXc


(Edit: Added Effective MH/s per share and MH/s per BTC at 0.0005 and 0.0008/share.)
586  Economy / Securities / Re: [BitFunder] AMC-The Official Active Mining Cooperative Discussion on: June 02, 2013, 10:15:17 PM
And wouldnt it be more logical to pay dividends only to the shares which are sold.. i mean who gets the dividends paid to the millions of unsold shares??  Sad

The "Growth/Expansion Fund" receives all dividends from unsold shares. So, with only 5M sold, for all intents and purposes it receives dividends from 35M shares.

Think of it like a mechanism to always keep available funds ready for hardware buying.
587  Economy / Securities / Re: [BitFunder] AMC-The Official Active Mining Cooperative Discussion on: June 02, 2013, 07:00:58 PM
Hey Ken,
As of now things are kinda chaotic. Would you be so nice and post some plans for near future to sort this a bit ? For example what are we waiting for now and how much of it (avalon HW), do you want to sell it all as you stated on the chat above? How much of it will mine. What are the plans and expected time lines with and after that ?

There are 6 avalons from batch 2 (feb 18 order) arriving shortly, followed by 68 Bkk-16 (~305GH/s IIRC). There are already orders placed with Avalon for 20,000 chips, all of them going to AMC mining hardware. (edit-20k chips).
588  Economy / Securities / Re: [BitFunder] AMC-The Official Active Mining Cooperative Discussion on: June 02, 2013, 12:45:38 AM
20,000,000 shares @ 0.0005 BTC = 10,000 BTC = $1.3 million

Don't expect to sell all 20m shares. The 0.0005 price is artificially high.

"Artificially high" is expressed by market volume. Judging by AMC market volume, can't really agree. Smiley
589  Economy / Securities / Re: [BitFunder] AMC-The Official Active Mining Cooperative Discussion on: June 02, 2013, 12:32:05 AM
Vbs. To your understanding, do we actually need the coin, now the final first round shares are as good as gone?
Whats your understanding of share issue time frame?

Tricky question there! Grin

I've run several possible scenarios, from only 5M bought to 20M. In all of them AMC does pretty well, but in the 20M sold scenario ofc pretty damn well! Wink

It is really best to sell as many shares as possible, even if that means at 0.0005. Market interest can either be reflected by (1) higher price or (2) higher volume. In our case, we benefit much more from the higher volume (IPO shares sell quicker) than higher price (IPO shares sell slower as they cost more + IPO shares have to compete with other shares in price undercutting to keep volume up).

The capacity to buy more mining hardware now rather than later heavily pays off, especially since we get to profit much more from it mining at lower difficulties.

I'd put the 20M selling, with people picking them as long as they wish, even if it takes 1, 2 or 3 months to do it. The faster they go, the more everyone benefits. Also, remember that if they don't sell quickly, the growth fund is increased proportionally to the unsold shares. It doesn't compensate as much as selling, but it's still something to consider. Smiley
590  Economy / Securities / Re: [BitFunder] AMC-The Official Active Mining Cooperative Discussion on: June 01, 2013, 08:22:47 PM
You are assuming there will be demand for shares at .0005. We need the flippers in a healthy market, they are part of the market and help create buzz. I believe we should let the market dictate the prices, and have pre-announced dates for more shares to be issued (at market level).

There will always be the problem that when you need the coin and post at market level, they'll just be undercut. The only price with no undercuts is 0.0005. And everyone that bought from flippers at a higher price will be alienated if the price goes down again to 0.0005.
591  Economy / Securities / Re: [BitFunder] AMC-The Official Active Mining Cooperative Discussion on: June 01, 2013, 08:16:31 PM
There ought to be a bottleneck to the manufacturing line(the hardware is made by VMC run by a few people only), having 1mil of chips in inventory is the same as having 10k if your manufacturing line cannot cope up with the large number. I would advise against fixing the price just to raise capital which might not all be necessary, doing this would only hamper the power to raise necessary fund for the company in the future.

The board assembly can be outsourced, there are already lots of places offering board assembly for Avalon chips. Smiley
592  Economy / Securities / Re: [BitFunder] AMC-The Official Active Mining Cooperative Discussion on: June 01, 2013, 08:13:59 PM
I'd say keep the 0.0005 price untill all 20M are sold and the funds are secured to invest in new hardware as soon as possible. After that, the market is free to do as it wishes, but the new hardware is secured.
593  Economy / Securities / Re: [BitFunder] AMC-The Official Active Mining Cooperative Discussion on: June 01, 2013, 07:26:36 PM
The big issue is that at 0.0005 the IPO shares are almost all that will be bought, since anyone that sells below that will do at a loss. The moment the price goes up, there will be lots of share flipping on the market, selling just below IPO price. This means the income funds for buying more hardware will halt while the flippers sell their shares. This is a very big issue!
594  Economy / Securities / Re: [BitFunder] AMC-The Official Active Mining Cooperative Discussion on: June 01, 2013, 03:02:50 PM
There is no reason to do this, shares were selling pretty well at 0.0008. Just let the market consume the shares left from this batch, give it a couple of weeks to see what the market is willing to pay, make an announcement "We will sell another 10M shares at price XX" and that's it. Simple and easy, as long as Ken is transparent and announces things upfront.

From my estimates, getting the hardware faster from BTC10,000 from the 20M@0.0005 outweighs the mess that will be selling shares at higher price points with all flippers just waiting to cash in. Maybe shares can sell pretty well at 0.0008, but there's no guarantee that those funds are going to AMC. Right now, at 0.0005, there is.

For each share someone buys at 0.0008 from a flipper, AMC received 0.0005 when the flipper bought it in the first place, and the flipper now receives 0.0003. Since AMC receives all the same, might as well sell at 0.0005 instead of competing in a speculative market, where it only gets a much smaller % of all sales and takes a huuuuuuge time to collect the much needed funds for buying hardware. The clock is ticking!
595  Economy / Securities / Re: [BitFunder] AMC-The Official Active Mining Cooperative Discussion on: June 01, 2013, 02:29:18 PM
(...)
Shareholder Count: 327
Shares Sold: 4,440,113

550k early adopter shares left. I assume the remaining 20 mil will take a while to chew through as we move upwards. Not sure how that's going to play out.
(...)

At this point I would propose that all remaining "Early-Adopters" shares from the 20M should all be posted at 0.0005. This would guarantee that almost all sold shares are coming from the IPO stock, since there'll be almost no undercutting, with the incoming funds quickly being invested into new hardware. As I pointed before, this is a silicon time race. Smiley
596  Economy / Securities / Re: [BitFunder] AMC-The Official Active Mining Cooperative Discussion on: June 01, 2013, 02:46:56 AM
It was a forced sell. Angry

Quote from #bitfunder IRC channel:

Quote
<Ukto> there
<Ukto> i told him to post them
<Ukto> at 0.005
<Ukto> if he does any mroe sell downs
<Ukto> i will get very pissed Smiley
<ThickAsThieves> nice
<Ukto> AMC___: got that?
<AMC___> Yes

As per Ukto Bitfunder.com God, I have post all AMC IPO shares at .0005

Update from #bitfunder IRC channel:

Quote
<Ukto> le2: amc is selling at 0.0005 from here on

597  Economy / Securities / Re: [BitFunder] AMC-The Official Active Mining Cooperative Discussion on: June 01, 2013, 01:32:29 AM
There is one pretty big problem with that. What about the people who bought at 0.0008 or some other price > 0.0005 but bought them from existing shareholders rather than from Ken?  The profit there didn't go to Ken, it went to whoever flipped the stock. It gets real murky really quickly.

Again, for those just joining us, I have a very negative opinion of the issuer. Just because I make a factual statement that seems to go in favor of the issuer does not change that. So please don't attack me for defending him.

Other option would be to issue a special dividend, weighted by the bought share price, so that everyone that bought at a higher price gets more %.
598  Economy / Securities / Re: [BitFunder] AMC-The Official Active Mining Cooperative Discussion on: June 01, 2013, 12:44:33 AM
Seriously, what you need to do is find out who paid more than .0005.  I'm not saying give them their BTC back, but you should increase their share ownership relative to how much they paid.  So for example, if someone bought 1000 shares  two days ago at .001 BTC, you should just increase their shares to 2000.  You won't lose $ that way, just shares.  And you'll also not be cheating/punishing people who wanted to support your company in its early stages.

Seriously, how do you think everyone who bought over .0005 feels right now?

This feels like a reasonable suggestion, I'm sure Ukyo can code a script to parse the DB and for each AMC owner: (a) get the paid BTC for every owned share bought at >0.0005 and sum them all, (b) divide that by 0.0005 and (c) transfer the number of shares represented by the difference between (b) and the number of AMC shares in the account.

Example: Let's say someone bought 25 shares: 5@0.0006 and 20@0.0008. (a) 5*0.0006+20*0.0008 = 0.019; (b) 0.019/0.0005 = 38; (c) 38-25 = 13 shares to transfer between KS and shareholder.
599  Economy / Securities / Re: [BitFunder] AMC-The Official Active Mining Cooperative Discussion on: May 31, 2013, 10:04:21 PM
Quote from #bitfunder IRC channel:

Quote
<Ukto> there
<Ukto> i told him to post them
<Ukto> at 0.005
<Ukto> if he does any mroe sell downs
<Ukto> i will get very pissed Smiley
<ThickAsThieves> nice
<Ukto> AMC___: got that?
<AMC___> Yes

As per Ukto Bitfunder.com God, I have post all AMC IPO shares at .0005

I sent a PM asking him to issue an "official" statement here, with the reasons for that.
600  Economy / Securities / Re: [BitFunder] AMC-The Official Active Mining Cooperative Discussion on: May 31, 2013, 08:23:39 PM
More updated predictions taking into account more variables. Please examine all numbers carefully. Smiley

Please take everything with a grain of salt (!), as these are only previsions based on speculative data. I welcome any contributions for accuracy! Wink

Comments:
  • Upfront Avalon 10k chips cost of BTC1000 for each 10k chip order + board assembly, conservative scenario of 3 month delivery from order to mining start
  • Network hashrate assumes a 15% increase per month (geometric progression, r=1.15), with an estimated 381TH/s by december.
  • Operating expenses estimated at 10%.
  • Share valuation reflects the % of accumulated profit/share divided by the bought share price. A 100% figure means the share price is fully paid by earned dividends.
  • Used my estimations on sold share price as described below; will correct when precise figures are released
  • In may/14 the issuer starts receiving dividends on 60,000,000 shares, which are also free to use for any growth/expansion/investment purpose; in any case, the displayed share valuation takes into account no benefits coming from the issuer's funds (so you can see what you'll receive in the worst case scenario)



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