And don't forget the main problem about POW and this is the most important one.... every investor or long term buyer has to pay to the miner for securing the blockchain. POS coins investor don't they them self are doing their part to secure it and get even PAID!
No one will be a slave to POW coins once they notice how the game is going on.
Imagine if the US dollar was distributed by proof of stake. 1% of Americans would get all the money! Furthermore, money is created with work. If a currency isn't backed by work what gives it value? I feel commitment to the creation of wealth should require some financial backing by each of us (mining equipment and power - just like the US mint and their custom ASIC printers). If you literally have no skin in the game then what is the point? You have no understanding of what money is... Money is debt, it is not created by "work" (whatever that means). Currencies today are not backed by anything that is why the are referred to as fiat (latin for "it shall be"). The top 1% of Americans posses more than 40% of the nations wealth (all the money). If you took a physics class you would realize in a closed system such as the planet Earth.....nothing can be created nor destroyed. Energy is just transfer through a process called work. There is a process of work in creating FIAT. It should be the same for creating digital currency. YOU SIR, Have no idea what you're talking about. You say The U.S Dollar is only one of a handful of currencies backed by "nothing", infact, the USD is backed by something: the ECONOMY! Fiat in all nations are backed by things, whether it be gold, the economy, etc. PoS is backed by literally NOTHING, therefore it won't ever go anywhere. PoW is still by far the best. So you think that the us economy can support $17.5 trillion in funded liabilities and $220 trillion in unfunded liabilities? These currencies are not supported by the economy, because the debt is not supported by the economy. And further analysis of the consumption, debt, service sector based economy demonstrates that that economy in and of itself is unsustainable. POS is backed by the network. Do you think that these crypto-currency networks have value? Then by that estimation the fractional ownership of these networks reflected by each individuals stake must also have value. Given that you are using the U.S as an example....Well, you can't really use the U.S as an example!!! USD is really created out of Debt, which differs largely from Cryptocurrencies.... Try before 1913, where the U.S relied on Gold. Or try other countries today, like Saudi Arabia, etc etc, that rely on oil and exports, to back their money. The Point still remains, that PoS is backed by nothing. And do not tell me that PoS is backed by the network Lmao....that doesn't even make sense. how does that not make sense? All these networks offer different services. Demand creates all value and there is clearly demand for proof of stake crypto currency networks, as exhibited by nxt. Clearly the market thinks you are wrong. How can you tell me not to use the largest economy in the world as an example. That truly makes no sense. |
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To be fair messaging in BTSX is still TBD.
Cross-Chain-Trading has blockchain support, but has not been demonstrated in any test network.
Market Pegged assets are going to be tested live this week on the test network.
Items missing from table:
Pay transaction fees in any user-issued asset for which there is an open ask order.
Market Matching Algorithm is a tad more complex than just saying "automatic"... can anyone point me to the algorithm used by Nxt?
Nxt has leasing... DPOS has delegation... so lets compare and contrast:
a) leasing is for a fixed period of time
b) does leasing require executing a transaction on the blockchain (to lease) and does this charge a fee?
c) can your lease be revoked prior to the period of time.
d) what happens when your leased forging power are spent to someone new?
It seems like Nxt leasing + Transparent Forging is very similar in principle to DPOS prior to upgrade to approval voting.
Maybe I'm being pedantic but its an important enough distinction to me that to be chronologicaly correct, you should state "It seems like DPOS prior to upgrade to approval voting is very similar in principle to Nxt leasing + Transparent Forging". Otherwise you sound not objective by preceeding your own tech when in fact it is preceeded by Nxt. Both networks were designed independently... It doesn't matter which preceded which. Hmmm, if you look at development history and timelines thats debatable. Not in bitshares favor. when was transparent forging with leasing implemented? |
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screw ipo, we buy the coins cheaper at the open market if we want them, like always.
it is less risky to buy coins after the official launch. You might be passing up on some great bargains tho |
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And don't forget the main problem about POW and this is the most important one.... every investor or long term buyer has to pay to the miner for securing the blockchain. POS coins investor don't they them self are doing their part to secure it and get even PAID!
No one will be a slave to POW coins once they notice how the game is going on.
Imagine if the US dollar was distributed by proof of stake. 1% of Americans would get all the money! Furthermore, money is created with work. If a currency isn't backed by work what gives it value? I feel commitment to the creation of wealth should require some financial backing by each of us (mining equipment and power - just like the US mint and their custom ASIC printers). If you literally have no skin in the game then what is the point? You have no understanding of what money is... Money is debt, it is not created by "work" (whatever that means). Currencies today are not backed by anything that is why the are referred to as fiat (latin for "it shall be"). The top 1% of Americans posses more than 40% of the nations wealth (all the money). If you took a physics class you would realize in a closed system such as the planet Earth.....nothing can be created nor destroyed. Energy is just transfer through a process called work. There is a process of work in creating FIAT. It should be the same for creating digital currency. YOU SIR, Have no idea what you're talking about. You say The U.S Dollar is only one of a handful of currencies backed by "nothing", infact, the USD is backed by something: the ECONOMY! Fiat in all nations are backed by things, whether it be gold, the economy, etc. PoS is backed by literally NOTHING, therefore it won't ever go anywhere. PoW is still by far the best. So you think that the us economy can support $17.5 trillion in funded liabilities and $220 trillion in unfunded liabilities? These currencies are not supported by the economy, because the debt is not supported by the economy. And further analysis of the consumption, debt, service sector based economy demonstrates that that economy in and of itself is unsustainable. POS is backed by the network. Do you think that these crypto-currency networks have value? Then by that estimation the fractional ownership of these networks reflected by each individuals stake must also have value. |
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PoW is PoS with the stake being your mining rigs.
Yes. These are all resource-democratic systems. That's a strange use of the word. You can also then say they are also resource-republican. Yes, given the delegation of hashing power to mining pools who act as representatives in Bitcoinland. |
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PoW is PoS with the stake being your mining rigs.
Yes. These are all resource-democratic systems. |
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i would, should, could but i won't.
why not? I'm interested in shares in the bitshares bank but its too late for that. Maybe ill pick some bank shares when it goes on the market. I also don't think bitshares has features which are significantly better than its close competitors. You can purchase shares at bter.com and btc38.com. BitShares X is trading under the symbol BTSX. The order depth is very thin, however since these are only a small subset of the total share supply. If you are looking to capture a large stake, I would advise waiting for the official launch. However if you are looking to get a small position it might be wise to get in on these early deals. As far as your assumption that bitshares does not have better features than its close competitors you are indeed misinformed. Block interval is 10 seconds. Block confirmation is 1 block (confirmation at 1 block using BitShare's Delegated Proof of Stake (DPOS) is more secure than 6 block confirmation with bitcoin). The network can currently handle 10 TPS (DPOS will allow the network to scale up in the future to visa tps). BitShares allows users to create accounts that are stored on the blockchain so you do not have to send to a cryptographic public key, but instead are sending to names. Transactions automatically generate unique stealth address, which makes all transfers from accounts anonymous. There are more features in the pipeline but those are the features that have already been implement and tested for the past month. You can get a better sense of the comparative value of the BitShares platform at http://wiki.bitshares.org/index.php/Why_choose_Bitshares%3F. |
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To be fair messaging in BTSX is still TBD.
Cross-Chain-Trading has blockchain support, but has not been demonstrated in any test network.
Market Pegged assets are going to be tested live this week on the test network.
Items missing from table:
Pay transaction fees in any user-issued asset for which there is an open ask order.
Market Matching Algorithm is a tad more complex than just saying "automatic"... can anyone point me to the algorithm used by Nxt?
Nxt has leasing... DPOS has delegation... so lets compare and contrast:
a) leasing is for a fixed period of time
b) does leasing require executing a transaction on the blockchain (to lease) and does this charge a fee?
c) can your lease be revoked prior to the period of time.
d) what happens when your leased forging power are spent to someone new?
It seems like Nxt leasing + Transparent Forging is very similar in principle to DPOS prior to upgrade to approval voting.
Maybe I'm being pedantic but its an important enough distinction to me that to be chronologicaly correct, you should state "It seems like DPOS prior to upgrade to approval voting is very similar in principle to Nxt leasing + Transparent Forging". Otherwise you sound not objective by preceeding your own tech when in fact it is preceeded by Nxt. Both networks were designed independently... It doesn't matter which preceded which. |
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It is decentralization relying on the goodwill of the miners or relying on inflated transactions fees.
Not quite. It relies on stakeholders' vested interest to keep the network running, at a profit or not. At a profit is better but not necessary. It's hard to tell what the fees will be in the future and how many txs the network will be processing, so it's hard to tell what that profit might be. My point was that forging is not to gain profits from it. Forging and running nodes does help profits indirectly, because it makes network stronger, which makes NXT stronger, but profits are only a side effect. Now I have a question for you. Who subsidizes delegates in BitShares? Where do they get profits from or at least how do they cover their hardware expenses if the fees are planned to be very very low? Isn't this also relying on inflated (in fiat) tx fees in the future? The cost of running a full node at every level of TPS is lower for BitShares than it is for NXT. Having transactions that are 10kB does not scale... The fees can be substantially less for BitShares while still proving profitable to delegates. Whereas under the same level of operation the same cannot be said of each individual forger. Additionally, since the system is limited to 101 delegates the average pay per block producer is greater than the average pay per forger, if you are to expect 350+ forgers per round. |
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I find it somehow weird, why you guys set the snapshot to february, where ags was quasi not existent.
The nice thing is, that I had my pts at that time on an exchange, because I didn't know it better...
and the market cap of bitshares x is higher as pts? FUCK!
Quite simple, they rushed to award themselves all. After that they continue building and keep taking money promising other inferior products. Basically greedy developers like that of Ethereum. Aren't you surprised why suddenly over the last two months they started promoting here while before it was all silent. Before it was silent because the developers were slaving a way developing a superior product to anything that is currently on the market. Please see http://wiki.bitshares.org/index.php/Why_choose_Bitshares%3F. All the features are currently being testing in public beta test network. Bitshares X should be launching within a month. You can still buy shares in Bitshares X from bter and btc38 at a very cheap price relative to what people originally paid for shares in the DAC. The reason we are promoting right now is so that people like yourself don't complain later on that Bitshares was a closed crowdfunding when it has been publicly announced for the past year. (It is important to note that bitshares is not really an altcoin and has its own forum and community, the most substantial of any in the crypto currency space after bitcoin. Most of the discussions pertaining to bitshares occur on bitsharestalk.org not hear at BTT) Your developers are slaving away and yet you can promote now, but not before you distributed IOUs in Bitshares Bank? Why did you even award it 5 months before even if you are only testing it now? That rings a lot of bells and looks like a smart move from you guys to pocket maximum profit. Proof of concept was tested before the crowdfunding process. The point of crowdfunding is to support the development of the product. Why would it make sense to start crowdfund once the product is ready for beta testing? It takes a lot of time to get to that point. BitShares PTS and BitShares AGS were both advertised on bitcointalk. I do not see how you can complain, when you can purchase stake in BitShares X at a cheaper price than many ppl paid for their shares during the initial crowdfunding and run up to the February 28th snapshot. You're not making a logical argument. |
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I find it somehow weird, why you guys set the snapshot to february, where ags was quasi not existent.
The nice thing is, that I had my pts at that time on an exchange, because I didn't know it better...
and the market cap of bitshares x is higher as pts? FUCK!
Quite simple, they rushed to award themselves all. After that they continue building and keep taking money promising other inferior products. Basically greedy developers like that of Ethereum. Aren't you surprised why suddenly over the last two months they started promoting here while before it was all silent. Before it was silent because the developers were slaving a way developing a superior product to anything that is currently on the market. Please see http://wiki.bitshares.org/index.php/Why_choose_Bitshares%3F. All the features are currently being testing in public beta test network. Bitshares X should be launching within a month. You can still buy shares in Bitshares X from bter and btc38 at a very cheap price relative to what people originally paid for shares in the DAC. The reason we are promoting right now is so that people like yourself don't complain later on that Bitshares was a closed crowdfunding when it has been publicly announced for the past year. (It is important to note that bitshares is not really an altcoin and has its own forum and community, the most substantial of any in the crypto currency space after bitcoin. Most of the discussions pertaining to bitshares occur on bitsharestalk.org not hear at BTT) |
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@clout,
I see your point, but it's not about how much the network will be able to handle, it's about how much it will need to handle. I don't see the need for 10000 txs/sec, those numbers cannot be achieved without centralization, that's true. But I don't see such wide adoption of cryptos in the future that would necessitate these numbers. Basically, getting to $10 bln combined marketcap for all cryptos took 5 years, getting to $100 bln combined marketcap will take another 5 years, unless, of course hyperinflation makes all those $$$ fiat numbers irrelevant.
I think you underestimate how rapidly things will change because you are not looking at these networks as companies. Each of these networks including Bitcoin and Nxt, offer the same services as centralized companies and at a fraction of their current price. Bitshare X is looking to be a bank and exchange that can compete with largest banks in the world including JP morgan and Bank of America, by allowing for faster money transfers, lower fees, and substantially higher interest rates (5%). The user experience offered by BitShares X over the course of the next couple years, given the advent of crypto-currency atms, will be far greater than current banks. And given that it is a global derivatives trading platform it will need to be able to scale to these levels. (Also important to note that because bitshares x is 200% reserve bank, its market capitalization must be at least 3 times the value its deposits). Additionally only 1/3 of the worlds population has internet access. Google and Facebook have vowed to provide internet access to the rest of the world by 2020. I expect that once these individuals, most of whom are unbanked and will gravitate to an online bank like bitshares, get access to the internet, payment networks will need to process substantially more than the average 2,000 tps of visa and the peak load will have to be greater than 10,000tps. Also I don't think hyperinflation is inevitable but there will certainly be a financial crisis out of china and global economic depression within the next two years. I don't believe very many people will want to hold deposits in national currencies, which is why ppl will want to have deposits in BitAssets (BitGLD, BitSLV, BitOIL etc). Looking at it from a global perspective it is inevitable that this industry exceeds several trillion in the next few years. Bitcoin's growth has certainly been exponential but we haven't seen anything yet. |
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You mean the bitshares X that was supposed to be released back in February? The one where, everyone like you bought up PTS from people like me to get it before the snap shot but then never got anything for it? That bitshares X? Getting burned once wasn't enough, you need to come back for more?
Anyways, as that guy said, there is little reason to argue about this. PTS is currently trading at 0.0069BTC on Cryptsy, we can all just come back in a month or two and see what new low it has achieved.
At least you managed to get in their private party. I am quite regular on this forum and completely missed it. Thats because the forum has been flooded with junk. BitShares was announced a year ago. you can still donate funds to the ecosystem through BitShares AGS . BitShares has the longest and most open funding model of any of the next generation projects. I suggest you acquire AGS while they are still cheap and available. The AGS crowdfunding ends in less than two weeks. I know you can invest now. It was devious how you rushed to allot yourselves the main product. Allot yourselves quickly, then ask for money for the other 2nd rate products, excellent model. You do realize that in the same way you see the proliferation of altcoins you will see the same phenomenon occur with alt-companies that utilize the bitshares toolkit and the DPOS blockchain. If you want a piece of every alt-company to come out in the next few years than buying AGS and PTS is a very good move. If you want to purchase stake in Bitshares X you can do so at at a lower price than people paid for it prior to the February snapshot on bter.com and btc38.com. Bitshares X is currently trading at a market cap of a little less than $25 million. That is a steal, if you ask me. |
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I find it somehow weird, why you guys set the snapshot to february, where ags was quasi not existent.
The nice thing is, that I had my pts at that time on an exchange, because I didn't know it better...
and the market cap of bitshares x is higher as pts? FUCK!
Chinese exchanges such as bter and btc38 are honoring the snapshot for those individuals that had pts on the exchange during the snapshot. I believe that other exchanges will do the same. Also the snapshot was set to February 28th because originally bitshares x was going to be implemented on a proof of work blockchain. The scope of the project has since changed and bitshares uses a variant of proof of stake that is more efficient than any payment network in the industry, including ripple. In retrospect it would have been better to have a later snapshot, but the realization of fundamental design issues made it imperative to delay the launch of bitshares x. |
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[/quote] And don't forget the main problem about POW and this is the most important one.... every investor or long term buyer has to pay to the miner for securing the blockchain. POS coins investor don't they them self are doing their part to secure it and get even PAID!
No one will be a slave to POW coins once they notice how the game is going on.
Imagine if the US dollar was distributed by proof of stake. 1% of Americans would get all the money! Furthermore, money is created with work. If a currency isn't backed by work what gives it value? I feel commitment to the creation of wealth should require some financial backing by each of us (mining equipment and power - just like the US mint and their custom ASIC printers). If you literally have no skin in the game then what is the point? You have no understanding of what money is... Money is debt, it is not created by "work" (whatever that means). Currencies today are not backed by anything that is why the are referred to as fiat (latin for "it shall be"). The top 1% of Americans posses more than 40% of the nations wealth (all the money). |
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please add bitshares to the list
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i would, should, could but i won't.
why not? |
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Here is the simple explanation. If I have a relatively small portion of NXT I will very rarely mine a block. Therefore, for it to be worth my while, the fees have to be extra high to make up for this. So for the NXT system work and maintain decentralization, transaction fees have to be grossly inflated or the network has to rely on the good will of the owners of forging nodes.
So the short short of it is NXT/Peercoin need inflated fees to maintain decentralization.
It depends on a lot of factors. Renting a VPS costs $3-5/month (that's the total monthly cost of operating a node that you can forge on). Your profit from forging needs to be above that for forging to be justified. But since we don't know how much 1 NXT will cost, how many txs the NXT network will handle, we can't calculate how much in fees forging will bring, and how much in fiat that will translate to. It's all guessing at this point, it all depends on demand for crypto currencies from general population. Hence, no analysis is possible with any reliable degree of accuracy. we know how much the network can handle. 0.5 tps to 3.4 given the current block limit. Maybe you can raise the limit but you certainly won't be able to run a full node on a vps for $3-5/month. Bitshares is attempting to scale to visa transaction loads of 10,000 tps. I don't see nxt scaling very well. The analysis isn't really about nxt vs bitshares, its about the centralization that naturally develops as the network expands. Whether there are 100 nodes producing blocks or there are 350 increasing the tps will increase the cost of running a full node to the point that multiple nodes will be controlled by the same individual or group. Dpos doesn't pretend that block production will not be centralized and instead designs that centralizationinto the system. Control of the network is still decentralized among the shareholders of the network, who effortlessly secure the network from arbitrary control. The greatest form of decentralization is free market competition which is the selection process for active delegates. |
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By the way:
BTSX are now traded on bter and btc38 ..
note: those btsx are real although the official blockchain was not yet released ..
Market Cap at $20 Millions (6 place !) already ! Its sooo cheap! |
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