We should be seeing a status report within the next few weeks, so will be interesting to see how your numbers align. Nice one. Exactly! I will keep them updated also. I really need to get this into google docs!
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Great stuff. Thanks for your time on this.
Np, I'm already doing it for myself. Bottom line: KS, please only sell the least amount of shares needed for immediate expenses, as the dividends in the medium-term will be more than enough for any new investment!
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On these latest estimates I've taken into account a cost of BTC1000 for each 10k chip order + board assembly, and an even more conservative scenario of 3 month delivery from order to mining start. Please take everything with a grain of salt (!), as these are only previsions based on speculative data. I welcome any contributions for accuracy! Baseline scenario:- Avalon 10k chips (order #2) is done around 1st july.
- Network hashrate assumes a 15% increase per month (geometric progression, r=1.15), with an estimated 381TH/s by december.
- Operating expenses estimated at 10%.
- Dividends/share/month assume 40,000,000 shares
- Outstanding shares assume 2,000,000 shares are sold, with not many more selling after that to keep the growth funds high
- Growth/Expansion Fund dividends/m expresses income dividends from 40m shares less the outstanding shares sold to investors, which reflects the BTC reserved specifically for hardware buying
- Share valuation reflects the % of accumulated profit/share divided by the bought share price. A 100% figure means the share price is fully paid by earned dividends.
Possible scenario:- New orders of 10k Avalon chips each month costing BTC1000 (order + assembly; linear progression).
- Selling of AMC shares to investors in order to buy hardware isn't really a necessity after covering the BTC deficit in august/september, as it will bring down the available BTC to the growth fund. Even if no one buys more shares, the effect would only be a short delay between batch orders.
- After september the trickle effect from the 2.8TH/month increase is substantial, with the growth fund keeping a very healthy balance for investing in even more hardware
Edited for clarity.
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You still haven't accounted for the number of outstanding shares. AMC has 100M total. 40 M held by Kevin, 2 M sold, and 20M for a 'reinvestment account' (the same scam Ian Bakewell used, research it). The other 38M I assume are to be sold to raise money (AMC needs at least $2M in capital to cover their published plans).
So dividends paid to share holders will be 2/22 M = 0.09 of profits initially. Eventually this is diluted to 0.02 of profits, and Kevin holds voting right to do whatever he pleases.
Put that in your spreadsheet and understand why you should sell while Kevin is pumping.
Until 12 months or a dividend payout of 0.0005/share, AMC has 40M issued shares. Of those, any not sold are considered Growth/Expansion Fund shares. On my spreadsheet I already accounted the 1/40M split in the "Dividends/share/month", so those are the dividends each share gets, independently of the amount of shares sold. The Growth/Expansion Fund estimates assumes only the incoming dividends from 20M shares, so if there are only 2M sold, the dividends should assume 38M shares, almost doubling the available BTC/month for growth purposes. When AMC transitions to 100M issued shares, each share profits will decrease 60%. IIRC, Asicminer's dividends decreased ~71% when they exited the "shareholder protection" plan (0.00750846/0.02600008).
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I've run some more estimates for anyone to see the huge benefits of quickly increasing the hashrate (just considering Avalon chips), even with AMC taking a very small network percentage. Please take everything with a grain of salt (!), as these are only previsions based on speculative data. I welcome any contributions for accuracy! Baseline scenario:- Avalon 10k chips (order #2) is done around 15th june
- Network hashrate assumes a 15% increase per month (geometric progression, r=1.15), with an estimated 381TH/s by december.
- Operating expenses estimated at 10%.
- Dividends/share/month assume 40,000,000 shares
- Accumulated Growth/Expansion Fund expresses income dividends from the respective 20,000,000 shares, which reflects the BTC reserved specifically for hardware buying
- Share valuation reflects the % of accumulated profit/share divided by the bought share price. A 100% figure means the share price is fully paid by earned dividends.
Possible scenario:- New orders of 10k Avalon chips keep costing BTC782.10
- New order (#3) of 10k Avalon chips done around 28th august (made with 100% BTC from the Growth/Exp Fund)
- New order (#4) of 10k Avalon chips done around 19th september (made with 100% BTC from the Growth/Exp Fund)
- New order (#5) of 10k Avalon chips done around 10th october (made with 100% BTC from the Growth/Exp Fund)
- No more increases in hardware after these orders (hugely unlikely , as the Growth/Exp Fund keeps getting bigger and bigger)
- It's interesting to see that after crossing a certain revenue threshold, the selling of AMC shares to buy hardware isn't really a necessity.
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Price per MH/s is the only advantage, since it doesn't include "upgrade" plans.
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Well that's what happens when you fuck around with a non-transparent selling policy and price manipulation to try to sell more shares in the short-term. You attract short-term sales at the price of long-term credibility/sales. I've seen it plenty of times and it's never ended up working well for the issuer.
The problem many issuers face is that they try to sell more shares than there's actually demand for. The policy of early-bird shares followed by a sharp price rise hits problems as soon as the sharp price-rsie occurs - as the initial investors then get to profit-take, undermining further sales. And why wouldn't they do that - as there'll surely be more IPOs along shortly where they can make a 50%+ profit in a few weeks by flipping early-bird shares rather than holding on long-term with much greater risk for a massively lower APR.
Where AML varies from other ones burned by messing with this stupid sales policy (e.g. BitPride, ZigGap, BTCQuick on Bitfunder) is that it didn't even manage to sell all the early-bird shares. The three listed sold all those - but then ran into undercutters cashing out profit when trying to sell the rest at much higher prices. Guess every IPO has to learn the same lessons the hard way - specifically :
1. Fucking with your own share price to raise it will only attract short-term speculative investment - a higher price will NOT attract new long-term investment that wouldn't invest at the lower price. 2. If you sell some shares cheap then other identical shares at a higher price EXPECT a lot of of the ones who bought cheap to undercut you.
The exception to this is when a rise in price follows ACTUAL decent profits (see S.DICE - where higher priced tiers did sell out after months of steady real, not projected, profit). That's profits that have been made - not fantasy projected ones based on being able to add hashpower (that has't even been built) to the network without changing the network's hashpower and without anyone else buying/building/deploying any ASICs at all.
From having seen plenty of other attempts at the same thing I'd expect the price to move around for a bit then slowly fall back towards the initial price as people who bought thinking they could cash out at the next price tier realise it isn't actually going to get there any time soon. The drop can be delayed - but made sharper when it happens - by continued attempts to manipulate market prices. The price CAN be kept high if sufficient capital is used to maintain bid-walls - but quite possibly at the cost of actual sold shares dropping and the retained capital/share falling as it gets thrown away buying back shares at a price higher than they were sold at.
Disclosure : I regularly buy/sell during IPOs - there's generally more profit (and much less risk) flipping during IPOs than holding the shares for any length of time. I currently hold 0 AMC but HAVE bought and sold a small amount (profitably) for my fund.
You hit the nail in the head, as always Deprived. Thanks for the input!
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Great, as soon as it comes closer to 0.0005 I will buy more. This is one of the only investments with some level of security for the upcoming asic take over.
I'm not expecting (but don't quote me on that ) the share price to go any lower than they already are unless there is the specific need for it. If it's KS selling at 0.0008 it must be for quickly getting the last coins needed for the next 10k chip Avalon batch.
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Some updated figures. I welcome any contributions for more accurate estimates! - Network hashrate assumes a 15% increase per month (geometric progression, r=1.15), with an estimated 381TH/s by december.
- Operating expenses estimated at 10%.
- Dividends/share/month assume 40,000,000 shares
- Accumulated Growth/Expansion Fund expresses income dividends from the respective 20,000,000 shares, which reflects the BTC reserved specifically for hardware buying
- Share valuation reflects the % of accumulated profit/share divided by the bought share price. A 100% figure means the share price is fully paid by earned dividends.
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Much more accurate, still a terrible investment b/c at current valuations it is worth 1/10 of asicminer. I probably don't need to point this out but Asicminer is already proven and controlling more than 10x the network power that this company ever will.
Asicminer is currently yielding around annual 44-52%. https://btct.co/security/ASICMINER-PT > History.
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Thanks for the input! AFAIK, reinvestment is coming from the "Growth/Expansion Fund" (>=20M shares) and selling of shares. The values for the "Growth/Expansion Fund" represent the available BTC for reinvestment from the 20M accumulated share dividends. Looking better? ( Acc stands for Accumulated).
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If someone would be so kind as to review my figures, I'd really appreciate it! I did today some quick math on the investment return, might as well share it with everyone. I considered only the hardware stated below and assumed a linear 20TH/month increase in difficulty, already starting "aggressively" (debatable ) at ~178TH/s in june (bear in mind that at today's difficulty, 390GH/s would yield BTC491/month). Div/share/month is based on the 40,000,000 split, with the accumulated BTC in the "Growth/Expansion Fund" also shown (minimum of 20M shares). ROI shown for BTC5 E-4 and BTC10 E-4 share price, current share price is at ~ BTC9 E-4. I'm expecting the numbers to get even better with announcements of even more hardware buys. Lets keep the "Growth/Expansion Fund" always depleted!
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Might as well close the "Securities" sub-forum, while we're at it!
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Loving your work Vbs. You are now default shareholder accountant! I just saw a pattern of issues popping out over and over again, so I decided to run the numbers. Hope it helps everyone to decide for themselves.
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I did today some quick math on the investment return, might as well share it with everyone. I considered only the hardware stated below and assumed a linear 20TH/month increase in difficulty, already starting "aggressively" (debatable ) at ~178TH/s in june (bear in mind that at today's difficulty, 390GH/s would yield BTC491/month). Div/share/month is based on the 40,000,000 split, with the accumulated BTC in the "Growth/Expansion Fund" also shown (minimum of 20M shares). ROI shown for BTC5 E-4 and BTC10 E-4 share price, current share price is at ~ BTC9 E-4. I'm expecting the numbers to get even better with announcements of even more hardware buys. Lets keep the "Growth/Expansion Fund" always depleted!
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Looks like someone is manipulating the market again, with over 100k shares bidding at 0.00079 and twice the amount asking at 0.00080 -- wonder who it is?
Some might call it pumping, others might call it a pre-announced share buy-back. But to save everyone some back and forth, read this: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=158806.msg2307404#msg2307404In short: this was not unexpected. Come on. How many companies can you name that IPO, do not even sell 5% of their shares and then "buy them back at 60% higher than their offering price? Yes, I know the offering is illegal so the point may be lost on you BUT, you do know it is AGAINST the law for any broker listing on a prospectus or for the issuing company's treasury to buy back primary or secondary offering shares at ANY price above the issue price? Most flippers will want your head now, since without the large 0.00079999 wall there's no guaranteed maximum flipping profit!
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The Avalons from batch 2 are rated at 65GH/s (minimum) and 595W of power consumption. So, six with 390GH/s@3570W yield at current difficulty 113BTC per week less ~0.27BTC for power expenses (assuming $0.06/kWh). These values can be easily checked at http://dustcoin.com/mining
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I'll vote for putting them up on BitMinter when they arrive: 1% fee, merged mining (BTC+NMC) and block transaction fees sharing. Edit: And Live Stats can be seen at https://bitminter.com/livestats/big for everyone to confirm the hashrate. What's the PPLNS reward per share? I had a look at the site but couldn't find that info. PPLNS doesn't use a specific reward per share, you receive a % of the block reward based on your submitted share # during a time period (shift) vs total # submitted to the pool. For 24/7 mining, the reward scheme is irrelevant (some have more variance in payouts than others, not really relevant for 24/7). I'd say what is really relevant, roughly by order of importance: (1) pool uptime, (2) pool connection reliability+low ping, (3) pool fee+ merged mining opportunity and (4) pool block tx fees sharing.
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I'll vote for putting them up on BitMinter when they arrive: 1% fee, merged mining (BTC+NMC) and block transaction fees sharing. Edit: And Live Stats can be seen at https://bitminter.com/livestats/big for everyone to confirm the hashrate.
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(...) Bottomline is that he DOES own more than 60% - dropping to exactly 60% if/when all 40% of public shares are sold. Reason for that is the ownership the shares owned by AMC. Those are owned by whoever owns AMC. Shareholders do NOT own AMC (that's explicit in the contract) so do not any part of those shares. In practical terms, assuming good faith, the actual effective owned percentage of profits is 50% if all public shares are sold.
Thanks for the analysis Deprived. As a comparison, ASICMINER has a roughly 41/59% profits split (favoring Bitfountain). I didn't find an explicit reference to the "ownership" of ASICMINER. Introduction ASICMINER is a virtual identity totally held by investors of the Bitfountain company. The Bitfountain company's business includes mining with self-built ASIC devices, as well as the sales of them. Currently ASICMINER shareholders holds 163,962 shares, while Bitfountain shareholders holds 236,038 shares. ASICMINER shares have the privilege of getting all net profits till 0.1BTC/share from the day when dividends began to be paid. They also have the exemption of dilution, which means that each ASICMINER share always equals to 1/400,000 of the total profits and voting power of the summed value from both ASICMINER and Bitfountain. (...)
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