|
I do not get his argument, read the stuff three time - maybe a language thing. Is he saying that it is a technical problem? A fund manager at a custody bank should not alone be in control of the private key? Multisig solves that doesn't it? Or is it a law problem?
|
|
|
|
|
send 0.02Btc
tx: ed63babee89a01e618226020d766e4ee18fcffbefe1d837f777fce89646ed206
nxtl: 9707860509007814008
good luck for development
|
|
|
|
|
is there a technical issue with bitcoin or why do all people get full retard?
|
|
|
|
No, that is not a universally held view. Innovation can bring productivity gains which bring profit for the innovators without necessitating any rent collection. Personally I'm am of the opinion that rents are evil, and I've pretty much dedicated all of my bitcoin efforts towards destroying rent seeking industries.
There are alternative models out there which work much better.
I do not want to be in any way offensive, but the model proposed by adam is artificially, by pegging, seperating the rent from the innovator. I think rent collection by protection is something evil. |
|
|
|
2-way pegging means that value may be transferred at a pegged (fixed) rate in either direction. The "2-way" is in contrast to one-way pegging, which is for example how Counterparty was issued. Unlike proof-of-burn, 2-way pegging involves sending coins to a special form of output which identifies the destination chain and recipient on the other side. At this stage it is similar to proof-of-burn: you have provably made the currency unspendable to you, and in doing so you gain the right to claim an equal number of coins at the destination side chain. What's new is the return peg: to move those side chain coins back onto bitcoin, you perform the same operation again. First you send the side-chain coins to a special output naming the bitcoin chain and yourself as recipient. On the bitcoin side you take one of those previous burn-like outputs which sent coins into the side chain, and present your proof of having "burnt" sidecoins in order to claim an equal number of real bitcoins. This special form output is a script which is able to understand an embedded proof-of-spend from another chain, which validates the accounting rules (you need to spend X bitcoins to claim X sidecoins, and vice versa), and which makes sure that claimed coins go to the indicated recipient. This sortof-is and sortof-isn't fixed exchange rates. If you are coming from an economic background you know the problems of fixed exchange rates, but those problems don't really apply here. The problem with a fixed exchange rate over national currencies is that the two are not in fact equivalent -- you have two issuers that are separately backing each currency. In the case of 2-way pegging however, the two currencies are equivalent. You only ever get sidecoins by making bitcoins inaccessible, and vice versa. It isn't about fixing exchange rates between two currencies, rather it is about using the same exact currency on two different networks: sidecoins are bitcoins, and bitcoins are sidecoins.
thank you for explaining it like this, this is for me totally sound even though you can wonder from a non-technical perspective why you need this special tokens on sidechains, when they are equivalent to bitcoin, but I assume this is like for xcp a technical reason.
Regarding innovation, monetary reward from speculative asset issuance is a failed model. Any innovation that occurs could be cloned on a side chain using bitcoins, freicoins, or some other already issued coin as the native currency. In a free market there is absolutely no reason to prefer the non-pegged alternative. after that wonderful explanation of 2way pegging, I was assuming a great answer to that part. I have to say I cannot agree less. The reason for innovation (not invention) is rent seeking, if you follow Schumpeter even by definition. This view is after all I know widely accepted over all schools of economics, from the libertarians to the almost ultra-left wing economists, and seen as welfare increasing. To put together a new combination of ideas and capital is probably the most driving force in capitalist developement. Speculating on this assets is referred to Schumpeter seen as "gods work" because it is allocating money to the best ideas, this money is used for building an entire industry around this idea, creating a slippery slope of innovation, investment and re-innovation. The beauty of the value web following the invention of Satoshi is that it is even self-enforcing the factors (capital, ideas, labour) for creating this slippery slope. This is for me one of the reasons why cryptoeconomics has a huge chance to succeed. Do not get me wrong, from a non-technical perspective I think it is useful to try to set Bitcoin Protocol as the TCP/IP of internet for money, but you should make sure that there is a sound incentive model for developers, which is encouraging innovation. I think this model is not doing this and probably even leading to the opposite direction. Also reading Adams post on the mailing list for the motivation to do two way pegging was in this way depressing. It sounds, even though I think it is unintentional, like someone who wants to protect the status quo. |
|
|
|
maaku thanks for being here  I have a few questions 1.) can you explain 2-way-pegging in non-technical manner? coming from an economics background I know pegging, but two-way-pegging is a somewhat artificial expression. is it simply fixing exchange rates? 2.) again from an economics, non-technical perspective, it seems to have a lot of disadvantages, for the case it is the same as fixing exchange rates. if I understood Adam Beck on LTB properly the reason for using this model is keeping the promise of 21 million bitcoins as a somewhat law of scarcity in Cryptocurrencies. Due to altcoins, he sees the danger of losing digital scarcity - that is absurd for an open-source technology isn't it? what incentive do altcoin-developers have to create a great coin within this system? Who sets the exchange rate for the tokens on the sidechains? 3.) Aren't you afraid that some developers who have great ideas simply create altcoins, using closed source code, because they know otherwise they would be cloned by bitcoin (idea is funny)? I think the cryptocurrecy development works so great because it is open sourced, free floating and not limited. I am afraid that you could move great minds, who also want to be monetarily rewarded for an innovation (which is by no doubt fine) out of the Bitcoin-Protocol? Just to clarify I do not know if there are technical reasons for two-way-pegging, but regarding incentives for core innovation within the cryptocurrency system, especially for people entering the market now and in the future, this is a suicide. After listening to Adam on LTB I think that the motivation for two way pegging is completely wrong and almost funny. |
|
|
|
Got a thread back, nice one
Whats is the reationship between master coin to safe coin?
apart from the fact you can buy safe coins with mastgercoins
what links the two together, does safe coin exist on top of the master protocol?, as i thought that wasn;t the case due to teh way its meant to be used,
Below is an excerpt from https://github.com/maidsafe/Whitepapers/blob/master/Project-Safe.md7. SAFE Crowd Sale The crowd sale will be operated as follows: A fixed number of MaidSafeCoin will be issued during the crowd sale The sale will last until all coins have been purchased (circa $8million) or 30 days has passed, whatever happens first Within that period, public funds in the form of bitcoin and mastercoin can be sent to exodus bitcoin address via www.BuySafeCoins.comEach participant will purchase an intermediary coin, MaidSafeCoin A quantity of 429,496,729 coins will be available for purchase, this equates to 10% of all safecoins Early buyer incentives are in place to reward early participation (see chart below) It is estimated that participants will purchase 17,000 MaidSafeCoins for 1 bitcoin All purchases and transctions will be recorded on the Bitcoin block chain via the Mastercoin protocolThe deposit of funds in the exodus address will auto generate the appropriate level of MaidSafeCoins, they will be reciepted in the participants mastercoin wallet Once the full network is launched these will be traded on a 1:1 basis for safecoin Each participants safecoin wallet will be credited as the full network is launched and they create their SAFE network accounts In the event that not all coins are sold, the remaining coins will be burned All details are available at www.safecoin.io</excerpt> How could the MaidSafeCoin be recorded via the Mastercoin protocol? There is no 'user currency' feature yet. Instead they are using a Mastercoin-style fundraiser. They are going to announce their 'exodus address' on 22-April. There will apparently be a separate 'exodus address' if you wish to send Mastercoin instead of bitcoin. Actually, MaidSafe is coinciding their fundraiser with the release of the first version of our user currency feature, and their coins will be entirely purchased and traded exclusively within the Master Protocol. The bitcoin address is run by a trusted third party who will will receive bitcoins and then send Mastercoins to the fundraiser and then send the resulting SafeCoins back to the purchaser, making the process a little more streamlined for some people who don't already own MSC. by simple math, correct me if I am wrong, the maidsafe team, assuming they will receive 8Million Dollar in MSC, would almost own half of the MSC at given market cap (17Million$). Where do the trusted party get the MSC from? Anyway good to see Mastercoin Protocol in use, can you tell the conversion rate of msc to Safecoins? |
|
|
|
So can someone explain how this sidechain innovation project would affect projects like counterparty and mastercoin?
It's an enhancement and not a threat. You need to differentiate a few things: there are protocols like XCP and MSC and there is some kind of communication with the Bitcoin protocol, for example the initial proof-of-burn (XCP) or fundraising-for-dev (MSC), the several data-storing schemes like using multisig transactions to encode transaction information or the DEX which directly interacts with the Bitcoin layer. It appears they are building the groundwork for an even more frictionless communication between Bitcoin and X. non-technical so explain like I am five  - can we simply take all our msc/xcp/assets and move them to the new sidechain? |
|
|
|
|
what is the conversion rate of msc to safecoins? cannot find it
|
|
|
|
|
seriously what the fuck is wrong with this guy
|
|
|
|
Again, congrats. on today's big move towards adaption. I believe that we need to pickup marketing after a period of debugging.
In order to pickup marketing and in order for all of us to "spread the word", and attract XCP investment as well as CP platform usage I believe that we need to have the best clarity, on details beyond the obvious value that a decentralized platform provides.
-----------------------------------------
Thus, Back to "business model"questions:
I read the LTB coin plan with great interest and I can indeed see a great potential in what they are trying to do there.
I will use this as an example to ask several questions to our devs, Matt or any other visionaries here that would like to answer:
Since LTB coin (and any other such future asset) will be built off the CP platform and is an asset:
1) there will be 510M coins and promotions etc etc. how many actual assets will be issued that will require 0.5xcps? (one time and done? every promotion?)
2) I can see that the LTB vision, as well as the B TangibleAssets vision, as well as all other assets in the future, can create great value to their shareholders. However,
a) what drives XCP's value in real economic terms? what drives CP's value?
b) can we actually have LTB's with a market cap of say 50M and CP with 10M? I believe that it is possible. so how will we generate value to our XCPs when we dont have shares in CP (XCPs ARE our shares).
3) Will all transaction fees incurred from various activities around CP actually go to BTC miners? or are there DEX fees that will stay within the CP eco-system (hence realizing that it is a vertical system within the BTC ecosystem as we tried to display to the BTC devs)
Thanks for thoughtful orderly answers.
not belonging to the xcp team - I think that are very useful questions. I try to answer question 2 - please correct me if I am wrong 2a) I think this question was also relevant regarding mastercoin. Whereas everyone can see the value of the protocol (mastercoin, counterparty) it is hard to understand the value of the underlying currencies (msc, xcp). As fas as I know xcps value now is mostly derived from speculation, paying dividens and being simply the native currency of the counterparty protocol. In the future this will probably change because xcp will be useful for specific cases. It will be used for betting and derivatives, because some functions of xcp are different to the functions of btc, enabling these specific types of transactions. I talked to xnova yesterday in the chat and he told me that they will implement betting function in the counterparty wallet within the next month. Furthermore there is a huge interest in implementing a kind of a prediction market, enabling more complex financial transaction. I highly ecpect that XCPs will be used for these more complex transactions. Please correct me if I am wrong. 2b) I also see no reason for that not being possible, this probably changes if the metacurrencies would be backed by xcps. A second more likely case is that the demand for the expected specific functions of xcp will be higher than the function or profitability of these specific assets |
|
|
|
Counterwallet is live on mainnet: https://counterwallet.coPlease BE CAREFUL with your funds! Try an operation with a fraction of XCP or asset, get used to things, and then try more. Please email dev@counterparty.co with any bug reports involving loss or potential loss of funds.Please BE CAREFUL with your pass phrase. Store it on paper, not on your computer. Store multiple paper copies in multiple different secure places. Do not give it a written description that would tell anyone what it's for (e.g. "My Counterwallet Password: " <=== bad move! ). Also, please heed the following warning: Counterwallet is BETA software and is still under heavy development. Please take caution in your use of it for storing and transferring funds on mainnet, and report any/all bugs. The Counterparty team cannot be held responsible for lost or stolen funds, although we will do everything in our power to prevent and rectify such situations. congratulations |
|
|
|
|
with all the fud around msc/xcp being thrown out or being manipulated by miners - how do you handle this problem? I am pretty sure that the bitcoin developers do not want to see another bloating of the blockchain. they even do not really like financial transactions like xcp/msc on chain - do you think they will accept more gambling? Is there any incentive for the miners to accept cha transactions?
what is the big advantage over staoshi dice?
|
|
|
|
|
non-technical but build-in/on-chain escrow
|
|
|
|
|
I think these projects will make programmable money become reality - let us be fair, for most westeners bitcoin is an interesting project, but you can almost do everything with fiat money as well - this will probably change with these projects.
The closest is probably xcp counterparty, which is still little off-radar, but tommorow their mainnet webwallet starts.
|
|
|
|
|
is there a description how to import my msc from blockchain.info wallet to masterwallet?
|
|
|
|
You will see the end of this bear market by these following indicators.
1) The price will go lower then most expected
2) The price will remain low longer then most expected
3) The loudest and the most enthusiastic bulls will start to blame bitcoin and everyone involved for the situation and then write dramatic final speeches of them leaving.
If you will get tired of seeing indicator 3, then it's time to buy, not before.
#3 spotted in the wild! https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=554625.0;topicseen btw why don't you expect a fast rebound? - if I observe this place properly all guys are playing "who gets the most bitcoins" - and they are wondering where the bottom is - probably not for selling at the bottom.... |
|
|
|
i think this really is an interesting project - so do not get me wrong. if 1 million bcn are worth 0,2 btc - the project with already 150bn coins in existence is worth around 30.000 btc, that is somewhat above protoshares/counterparty and slightly below namecoin. if the price would be 1/10th of that I would probably buy some but that is somewhat sick high. anyway interesting project - I keep following and probably mine some for myself any calculation wrong? |
|
|
|
|
still not sure with the decimals - can somebody verify that the atomic units do not equal the coins?
|
|
|
|
|
Show Posts
