After looking up the FTC rules I sent an e-mail and a certified letter with return receipt to Jim Brown. Figured I might as well be proactive, nothing has shipped yet so I am entitled to a refund per the FTC.

The email has so far gone unanswered, and in tracking the letter there was an attempted delivery on the 19th of March. It said the recipient was not available when it was delivered, but didn't clarify as to whether or not there was any answer at the office (my guess being no). Upon request for a refund the FTC states that they are required to send a refund within 7 days ( I imagine it must be postmarked by that day)  by first class mail.

I figure that by being ignored via the post office I'll have a good documentation should the need to follow up with lawsuit arise. Also if I'm not given a refund with in the specified time set forward by the FTC I'll send a Thirty Day Demand Letter, http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/demand-letter-settle-dispute-30105.html , like the one in the link. Then I'll go ahead and continue on with legal action if they do not meet my demands. I figure all of this will be sent out by the time my miner was supposed to originally ship. If some how I actually receive my miner, I'll drop any legal action I'd be taking provided the product meets the standards they claimed they would.

In the demand letter I'll ask for a refund of my check, or a substitution of goods, in the form of a Bitmain S2 and 3 S1s with a power supply(ies) capable of running the 3 S1s. The latter option would allow them to pocket a couple hundred of my original investment.

If I get no response then, I move to small claims court. It looks like the 30 day demand letter is suggested before the legal action. The question is does the legal route allow my to sue for double damages I know in some states, if certain rules are met you can sue for triple damages and court and legal fees.

Anyone filing suit may also want to read this as a just in case. http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/can-you-collect-judgment-29546.html

They changed it late last week.

I'd be happy with an S2 and 3 S1 with a power supply that can power them. It would cost about what I paid give me added hashing power. Even if they just bought an S2 and 3 S1 with out the power supply then I get the hashing power and they'd make a bit of money.

I do like that you got his cell number and called him. But now t will only ever go to voice mail, but he'll get back to you with in 24 hours.

If you look just a couple words over from when I first said inevitably you will find the words "MY miner" I didn't claim all miners. I was talking about the miner that I would be receiving so perhaps it's your reading comprehension that could use a little work.

 I did expressly say that I didn't think that you did your research that is correct. What you may not have noticed was that I also said that if they did tell you that they were shipping 1.2 Th miners they were lying. Which obviously is in agreement with you. I just said it will be on you to provide the proof that you were lead to believe those were the miners they were shipping. Which can be hard with phone calls as they cease to exist once you've disconnected. Unless you were recording the conversation obviously.

If you did not call them scammers I apologize I thought that I had seen you use that word, or the word scam multiple time when referring to AMT. Usually that's a word used for companies who are going to take your money and run without delivering the product. 

I've seen them lie about you on the thread and I don't doubt their lies. I'm not sure why you think I'm defending AMT's actions. Because I present an argument that isn't exactly in lock step with yours doesn't mean I'm batting for team AMT.

Maybe tomorrow morning, you have a cup of sanka instead of espresso. You'll be much more calm and probably more reasonable.

Just slap that sticker on there and push them out the door.

I don't act like the delay of chips is inevitable, but I do realize the effect of not getting the materials on time and how that will greatly change the best laid plans. Would it have been smart to build a buffer into their and then delivered early if everything went swimmingly? Of course it would have. When you are shopping for a miner one of the number one things you are going to be looking for is when it ships and the companies know that. So they advertise the earliest possible date that they think that can ship based on getting their materials. If they had built in one or two months of buffertime and advertised with those as the shipping dates would you have even looked at ordering from them? Because that's not just an AMT practice

And why is it you assume I have an angle? It's not like AMT is the only company who has taken pre-orders and did not hit their delivery dates.

Nothing I can do will change what happens with AMT so why would I think I'd get my miner any faster? And hell aren't you making the accusation that they won't ship at all because they are scammers? Shouldn't you have said I don't know what your angle is here but you won't be getting a miner anyway?

I'm not making excuses for amt, stop making excuses for not more thoroughly looking into if they had the chips when you ordered. I asked and was told they'd be in any day, low and behold I put my order in on january 31st and on 2/1 they had received the chips. Still didn't know that as they didn't post the pictures until the end of february for some reason.

If they said they had the chips and were shipping 1.2 th miners then they lied to you, but the burden of proof is going to be on you that they lied over the phone to entice you to make an order. If you are seeking legal action anyway.

That explains why I wasn't able to find their storefront on amazon when I was looking there earlier today.

Oh, I apologize I assumed you'd done some research about the product you were trying to buy. Did you ask them if they had the chips already? Did you go to the website of the chip's designer? That's actually how I found AMT. Of course by that time there was a delay of shipment in the chips so I knew they didn't have them. Next time if you are going to drop a fair amount of money on a purchase you might want to ask the basic questions. They were probably shipping the the other miners of different hashing power (at least to biomech ;-) ), did you not ask if they were specifically shipping the 1.2 TH miners?

inevitable: as is certain to happen; unavoidably. Because there was a delay in getting the chips from the manufacturer it was "certain to happen" that miners were going to be delayed, and if they are starting from the beginning of the list then my miner would also be "unavoidably" late. They likely gave information that was based on information from their distribution partner. Thier distribution partner got information from the manufacturer. The manufacturer was unable to meet their time frame  (which mind you, has nothing to do with bitmine or amt).

So when the manufacturer was going to miss their date, they told amt's distribution partner, who noted it on his website then likely told amt. They for whatever reason didn't update their customer base, which I was not a part of at the time.

So the estimates on when they were going to have miners shipped were not just random lies made up in their heads to screw with you. It was based of of information, a timetable, that had been communicated to them. It wasn't about unrealistic promises. You ordered tech that hadn't been built yet, which you didn't bother to find out, that ended up being delayed because an issue with the chip maker.

I make widgets, and there is a company that orders from me because they use my widgets in their products.  I need cogs to make widgets, but the cog maker ends up running into unforeseen issues producing those cogs because there was an error with materials. So I made my contracts to the deliver the widgets based on what the cog maker told me originally. Now that there was an issue with the cogs I can't ship my widgets on time, does that mean that I was not up front and that I made unrealistic promises to the company buying my widgets?

We are in complete agreement that they have made everything worse with the clusterfuck that is their "customer service" you'll not see my say otherwise. It's been horrid and shutting down the phones was an absurd thing to do. Calling you out in the thread the way they did was unprofessional and uncalled for. They have done themselves no favors.

I'm hoping they are trying to pool some capital to honor refunds, but that doesn't seem to be the case. If I don't receive mine by the time I've indicated I'll take further action.

Every possibility that is the case especially if everyone starts suing. Once they declare bankruptcy no one can file a claim without first filing for a motion to lift the automatic stay. Which if you can prove they did it just to not go to court with you the judge can over turn their automatic stay.

Also if claim in the lawsuit it was fraud and can prove it that is a non-dischargeable debt and they still have to pay you.

http://smallbusiness.chron.com/company-sue-goes-bankrupt-do-64339.html

If they don't sign for it, then it is returned. They you have proof they are refusing contact with their customers, it's no longer he said, she said.

There was someone there signing for checks.

Send the mail, track it. Show up when the mail is delivered if some one signs for it then you have someone to talk to. If not you wait at the post office for someone to collect it. Set it up for e-mail alert where they send you a PDF of the signature when it gets signed. Then you know who signed for it. You're risking getting charged with something like stalking, but it's one way to find someone from the company to speak to face to face.

Also I'd send it to AMT c/o Josh Zipkin or Jim Brown that way it would have to be one of them who has to come for it.

Defending no, I think they are a terrible company. I saw that exchange actually. Though it usually takes a few attempts I've ended up getting responses. Sadly they don't answer all of my questions, but I've never personally been treated rudely by anyone associated with the company. I don't know if it's because I might phrase my e-mails in different ways but the company has never attacked me or been anything less than polite in the few phone calls I've had with them (I've talked to at least two people there on the phone).

I came in late in the game, I ordered and I'm going to wait it out until my advertised shipping date the 31st + 1-3 days for delivery, and at that time I'll take any steps necessary for recovery. Right now I have nothing to claim against them. I am completely understanding of people who ordered in November or December and are waiting for their orders, if I were in there shoes I would be upset too. The fact is delays were inevitable  at a stage before AMT could even really have the chance to fuck anything up. I'm sure people have been virtually banging down their doors since december threatening to sue them, e-mailing them and calling them fucking scum at a point where there was nothing they could do about it. If the chips weren't produced then there isn't any miner, that's just the facts of the matter.

What they failed to do was develop a professional relationship with their customer base. I've never receive an e-mail update that wasn't prompted by me. There was a period of time where they didn't bother to update their news section. Well at least until they did it in a shady way by back-dating post to make it look like there was communication all along. And posting pictures for something on the tenth of feb that wasn't taken until the 22nd of feb.

But still none of this means their intent is to scam anyone. There just isn't enough proof of that to call it a fact. What can be proved by fact ( through a limited number of pictures) is that things are progressing just not at the rate that everyone here, or there probably wants them to. Using GPS data we can locate at least the supplier of their backplane. Using GPS we can see they had the chips in their possession in haverford as of pictures taken at 2/1/14 at 3:51 am. Why would a company who wasn't going to produce anything that set itself up as a scam put that much capital into it. That would make them the worst scam artists of all time.

So, no I'm not defending them at every turn. I'm looking at things rationally and level headed and seeing what the logical conclusion is. I believe that conclusion is that AMT is a company that is in way over their heads. I think they didn't anticipate they would have the same issues as everyone else because they were not the company designing the chip. I think they don't know what to do about hundreds of people probably asking for refunds when that money is tied up in parts for the miners, they have a liquidity issue. And I don't think they anticipated that they wouldn't have things shipped at this point.

Now I get it, everyone in this business is going to freak out about a shifting time tables because profitability is directly linked to when you start operations. But you've seen many companies at this point who are not getting things out on time. We are at stage where we are prefunding the tech with our pre orders. Because that is what they are pre-orders. We made conscious decisions to send money to a company who did not even have the materials in hand to create the product we were purchasing. 

So I'm not going to blow up for no reason when I don't have the machine in my hand the second I want it. I'm not going to blow up when my miner is inevitably delayed by forces beyond the control of the company that I pre-ordered the product from. I don't care for the dishonesty and poor customer service I've seen them give others. But I'm not going to start calling them names and accusing their family members and starting conspiracy theories because none of that helps the situation. If that is defending them at every turn then we have a different definition of defending.

I would love it if everyone before me canceled their pre-order and I had a miner that much sooner but that isn't going to happen. If I ask for a refund I'm probably just one of a couple hundred getting ignored or getting the runaround. I have no ability to take legal action as my order isn't even late yet. So I'll sit here and wait, calm and collected while everyone else runs around screaming "Fire!" I'll progress as necessary when it comes to that time. 

http://smallbusiness.chron.com/company-sue-goes-bankrupt-do-64339.html

I'm waiting for the first lawsuit to hit, then they declare bankruptcy then no one can sue.

Unless you can prove the defrauded you.

blacks law dictionary defines

Defraud: http://thelawdictionary.org/defraud/

and

Deceit http://thelawdictionary.org/deceit/

Looks like this could be the case unless they can prove that they have the mining equipment and were honestly attempting to get it out, but met delays that took the company down.

I'm not exactly sure whats funny about assembly that was happening on the 27th of february, perhaps you can let me in on the joke.

The picture in the next post of the Rev 3 board was taken on 3/12? I'm assuming this is a knee slapper as well.

I'd still send a certified letter with return receipt prior to filing. It's solid documented proof that you sent a request and they received it as it actually has to be signed for, then if they don't respond it should help strengthen the case. I don't know how e-mails would be treated by the court nor forum posts. But a collection of all of the above couldn't hurt. Good luck in your case. Let us know how long it takes,if it's worth the effort and if you ever get your money back.

I wonder if people will end up suing AMT, Bitmine, and the chip manufacturer? They are all complicit in the miners being received in an untimely manner. Obviously it would be a bitch of a time since they are foreign companies.

No, I said anything you say about them now is going to have a negative bias because of how you were treated. And because you were treated so poorly by them you have a right to be upset which would obviously come through in your posts. That was the and rightly so.

Are you so blinded by anger that you think everyone is out to get ya? Do you think I would endorse their brand of customer service?

I've specifically mentioned multiple times in this thread that I don't like the way they have run the front of house. Ignoring your customers and lying are not acceptable things, which I've mentioned a multitude of times.

They are definitely not the "Average PC American Company" as they put it. And in my first phone call with them I could tell that when someone talked about people wanting to sue were whiny. This is of course before they even had the chips so there was no way they were shipping then. (And it doesn't seem a whole lot has changed)

I'm inclined to believe that they probably didn't take the kindest approach to his e-mails but to use the words "We're going to punish you by making you mine your money back!" would seem like a bad choice of words to a customer who is likely to sue you. But they have been digging quite the hole so there's no real telling.

I'm still wondering why they told me at #1432 and frictionless at #961 (I think) that our miners would ship during the week of the 24th. It just doesn't make much sense. I mean even as a lie. They know people confer on here. THe only thing I can figure is that if they do indeed intend on shipping that they are waiting on parts. I wonder if they bought a bunch of power supplies based on what they thought the draw would be, and then when it missed the mark they were fucked.

In bitmine's news update Georgio said that they are looking to 1300W PSU to run the 1 th coincraft desk and they are running into sourcing issues. I wonder if AMT is experiencing a  similar issue and is just waiting on a shipment of PSUs to complete a backlog of otherwise assembled miners. Then they can claim they weren't lying about assembly ( though it would be a half truth).


Truth be told the longer they remain silent the shitter the prospects look for everyone involved.

I'll give it until the date they said my miner will ship by + the 1-3 days for expedited shipping. If it's not at my house I'll request a refund. If I do not receive one I'll show up in person, and make sure I either leave with a miner or my money. My branch has a bank in town and I'll escort someone from AMT right there to deposit the money. Then I'll turn around and buy an Bitmain S2 and a few S1s

Which e-mail address are you using?

Think I'll shoot another e-mail to bitmine and see if there agreement required shipments of miners using the A1 chip with in a certain time frame. I'll also let them know that AMT hasn't been updating it's customers and that since we know the tech comes from a deal with Bitmine it's making them look bad by association. I'll also ask if he can make a call to AMT and see if he can lean on them a little to be more communicative about what is going on. And how we would hate to see them as co-defendants in any American court cases.


Edit:

subject: Hello from an AMT customer.

Body:

Hello,

I was just wondering if you had any information about your authorized distributor AMT. It seems that their lines of communication have been shut to many of their customers. I was wondering if, as part of your agreement with AMT to be the USA's authorized distributor, AMT had agreed to put shipments of products using the A1, not just bare chips, out to customers in a certain time frame. There are a multitude of people who have ordered from AMT who are not receiving their products, and as you can imagine that is making them worry. Some of which are so worried that they have retained legal counsel in order to proceed in their dealings with AMT.

I'm not sure of any of the particulars of your contract with AMT so I don't know how much risk of litigation you could be facing if named as a co-defendant in any potential lawsuit, either individual or class action. Regardless of legal matters your association with AMT is beginning to give you a negative reputation. Obviously you would like to avoid this as you are already dealing with your own delays, but at least you are doing what is right for your customers. Sadly the same can not be said for your USA distributor.

I'm messaging you to ask if you can use your business relationship as a way to reach out to AMT and ask them what the issue might be and if they are attempting to resolve it. At the very least if you are able to talk to someone at AMT you could give them a friendly reminder that due to your business relationship negative perceptions of one of your companies reflects poorly upon both of you. If you do get in contact with them please ask them to update their customers either through an e-mail campaign, or something as simple as posting information in their news section like you've been doing.

I appreciate your time and cooperation in this matter, and hopefully We'll hear from AMT or possibly yourselves shortly.

Thank you,

Curt Shaffer.

also on the same day as the other news that was posted here about bitmine.

http://bitmine.ch/?p=5329

and

http://bitmine.ch/?p=5404

Doesn't look like Georgio is going anywhere. Can't say the same for AMT.

I wish someone else in was in the PA area who could make a quick trip.