At any rate, the world is absolutely primed for the fulfilment of end times prophecy, Bitcoin playing an uncredited role.
2000 years of End Times. Seems more like Never-End Times. We already covered this. John was speaking about his own lifetime. Jesus failed to return. Game over. Only modern fundamentalist chrisitians and some assorted other kooks, who have trouble with reading comprehension, have stretched the fabled "second coming" over millennia to be, "Any day now, so stock up your canned goods and gold. We'll show those hell-bound atheists!" |
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First, love your avatar!  There are absolute morals.
Please list them all. Be sure not to list any your god has broken, otherwise it isn't absolute. God does not break the moral law, although he is certainly not bound by it.
Your god is the most immoral being in the universe. Of course you want to place him somehow above the law, otherwise that troublesome cognitive dissonance starts buzzing away. Only empathy will lead to utilitarianism. If Hitler thought what he was doing to the Jews would improve the life of everyone on the earth, and save them from the evil destructive Jews, on what basis do you criticize him?
I criticize him based on my rational, evolved, relative morals. • deny emergency medical aid to a child
• kill gays, children who misbehave, anyone who works on a particular day of the week, entire groups and races of peoples, and many others for equally capricious reasons
• buy and sell humans as chattel, including one's own family members None of these are biblically supportable, most are simply twisted to make the bible seem like ... a hateful book about imaginary people. First, I didn't say "bible" specifically, I said "religion" and of course some of them are supported in the bible. You'll simply say it was interpreted wrong. The bible is either literal or open to interpretation; if interpretable then either of our interpretations are equally? If he wants followers then stop with all the "interpretation games" and just lay down some laws, preferably not on papyrus since only someone of "ungodly intellect" would think that might last through the generations. Denied medical attention: http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1877352,00.htmlhttp://thinkchristian.net/denying-medical-treatment-for-childrenCommanding death of gays among many other arbitrary groups: http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/lev/20.htmlhttp://thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/70-year-old-stoned-to-death-because-the-bible-says-to-stone-gays/news/2011/03/18/18138Stoning naughty kids (Deuteronomy 21:18): http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy+21&version=KJVhttp://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message553954/pg1Killing those who work on Sabbath: 'Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.' (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT) You already mentioned the Canaanites so you know that evil bastard you call god is a fan of slaughtering entire peoples on a whim, including innocent children. And slavery? Oh yeah, god wants you to have slaves. This endearing passage indoctrinates christian cultists into accepting slavery because their slaves are supposed to "serve them as they would christ." Sounds like slavery is a pretty sweet deal for cultists, eh? If god didn't think it was good and proper, why would he instruct the slave on how to behave for the cultist? "Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ." (Ephesians 6:5 NLT) --- There are several helpful passages which instruct christian cultists in the proper way to handle their slaves - even their own daughters! Why give instructions unless a cultist is expected to own slaves? God wants to be sure you're fully prepped for human subjugation. How thoughtful of him! "When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property." (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB) "When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment." (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT) Adam sinned he brought death into the world.
You can't tell me you're not aware Adam and Eve never existed, right? Mitochondrial Eve kinda puts that to rest (if you weren't already aware every Creationist argument has been thoroughly debunked). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_EveIt's not my fault athiests go through the bible cherry picking verses to make an argument.
You're aware atheists do this because we try to speak to adherents on their own terms? This is the exact tactic most adherents begin with, tossing out a little out-of-context nugget to sound wise. Cherry picking the bible and "proper interpretation" is exactly what religion *is* - that's why there are over 42,000 denominations. Each picks its favorite verses to interpret one way and interprets the other passages another way. The entire idea is preposterous, and so it can only be chalked up to delusion. |
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That is the way it is with us. We have the gift of free will. We can choose God or not. We can choose to hate or to love, to forgive or not, to accept God or not.
I just showed you that you do not have free will. I am sorry your delusion has disabled your rationality but it wasn't unexpected. In some ways it is one of our greatest gifts but in that comes the fact that man is sinful and we end up hurting ourselves, each other and God too. It pains him.
Classic christian redefinition. "Truth" and "fact" are concepts not within their comprehension. Feel free to flagellate yourself for your supposed transgressions, however I am sin free. Which led to my statement that God allows things to punish people. God is patient but there does come a point when he does choose to move (such as in the flood). We do not want to anger God. When He gets angry and decides to act on that we don't stand a chance. He chooses to punish when our hearts become so hard and so against Him that He has no other choice.
I suppose it'd be pointless to inform you there is no empirical evidence for a worldwide flood. You do know that every single Creationist argument has been debunked, right? Before you reply with nonsense please go look it up here to find out why you're wrong: http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/list.htmlOne day, several years later, this guy was driving on the freeway and a large beam from a construction crew "accidentally" dropped on the front of his van instantly killing him.
I'm sorry you suffered abuse. Yes, his death was an accident. In case you hadn't noticed we all die. God does not want to bring harm, but I think that the cries of His children does cause Him to move and He will intervene when His anger is aroused, out of His love for us.
You can't be serious... your god wants to kill every single one of us eventually. As for "intervening" Rassah paraphrased earlier: "Either God can do nothing to stop catastrophes like this, or he doesn’t care to, or he doesn’t exist. God is either impotent, evil, or imaginary. Take your pick, and choose wisely." - Sam Harris |
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It would seem that instead of omnipotence, you meant omniscience.
If one is all powerful then one has the power of omniscience. As for the common painting of God as evil, it's getting old. God has created an absolute moral system, which is really the only kind that works. Flimsy preferential morals do not work.
We know your god by his works, and according to christians he leaves a wake of woe and destruction. He's painted as evil because he is. There are no absolute morals, if for no other reason than that he breaks every single one himself and by default cannot be absolute. Don't bother going down the absolute moral values road hand in hand with William Lane Craig. He's an intelligent solipsist who continually has his testicles crushed holding that opinion in debates with Sam Harris and Shelly Kagan. There is no such thing as absolute moral values and the argument for it leaves me wondering how Craig keeps a straight face. If murder is absolutely wrong in all cases, then your god is the most evil creature in existence. If there are absolute moral values why would your god have raped a 13 year old in order to give birth to himself? If there are absolute moral values provided by your god, why does anyone dare wear mixed wool and linen clothes? If there are absolute moral values why is it deemed virtuous Lot offered up his daughters to be raped instead of the angels he harboured? If there are absolute moral values why does god not only approve but expect his sheep to keep slaves? Morality: Using empathy as a guide for human interaction. AKA, "treat others the way you want to be treated" and "put yourself in my shoes". It has nothing inherently to do with the bible. When morality is based on religious text, its equally OK to: • deny emergency medical aid to a child • kill gays, children who misbehave, anyone who works on a particular day of the week, entire groups and races of peoples, and many others for equally capricious reasons • buy and sell humans as chattel, including one's own family members Karen Wynn of Yale has a study showing even babies have an idea of wrong versus right. Neuroscientist Christian Keysers has done research to show that the brain of those who see others receiving pain themselves have similar neurological responses. There is a curve to empathy; some feel it more than others. But it certainly doesn't come from a hateful book about imaginary people. Humans and probably other animals exist on a spectrum of empathy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empathyhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_neuronFrans de Waal shows that even monkeys employ "morality"... http://youtu.be/GcJxRqTs5nk |
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Unless of course that wasn't supposed to be an argument, in which case I quite like your elephant hypothesis.
It isn't an argument as much as it is just meant to illustrate the absurdity. They are equal arguments since neither has any empirical evidence pointing to its validity. If you're interested in worshiping Elephus, please understand she is the one true god, and the path to her exists only through obeying my word, her right hand man and appointed prophet. As far as you know, we celebrate her appropriately on St. Elephus Day by wearing wrinkly grey boots and an elephant mask while prancing through the streets showering with pink and brown confetti those gathered to bear witness to her godliness. And there's beer. Oh, and women jumping out of cakes. |
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5) He gives man free will.
Not if you believe your god is omnipotent. If you believe your god is all-powerful then you do not have free will. If you believe he is not, then he is not a god. |
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I don't usually indulge in philosophy, but try this on for size if you need a place to fit God in your head.
Great hypothesis, now begin testing it. Currently your fantasy shares an equal chance at truth as does, "I believe the universe was created by a pink polka-dotted elephant who pinched her trunk and farted us into existence because it sounds fun!" Personally I like my guess better than yours because in my elephant hypothesis, the wonderful creator does not capriciously murder entire peoples simply because they disagree with her. She also never claimed to flood the entire planet, indiscriminately killing every living thing save the handful of crew members on an impossible boat. She's particularly proud she never kills people just because they work on Sunday, or are in love with people of the same sex, and she is gleeful she never approved of and/or promoted using other humans as chattel, unlike some other gods we know of. |
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Not all christian religions subscribe to the teaching of hell or in Sheol as a place of eternal torment, but rather a place of rest and sleep of having no awareness what so ever.
42,000 denominations, each one certain it holds the only One True Path and all else are headed to whichever version of hell they believe in. Makes total sense. |
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Mind which school of textual criticism you buy your ideology from. Jesus existence is widely considered the scholarly position, identifying certain non-existence claimants as agenda driven. The historicity and veracity of the biblical texts is the benchmark by which all others are measured, being orders of magnitude more widely published and accurately preserved.
The bible is fiction. There is no extra-biblical evidence for the existence of Jesus, and even if I grant there may have been some dude running around during that time named Jesus, there is absolutely no evidence for divinity. You are no closer to proving the existence of a god; you'll need to settle for faith, just like the Raelians. Beyond the Quest for the Historical Jesus Thomas L. Brodie "Jesus did not exist as a historical individual" Bart Ehrman http://www.cnn.com/2009/LIVING/05/15/bible.critic/index.html (debunks the bible) In another Bart D. Ehrman book his introductory statement is similar to mine, there was likely some dude named jesus but there is no proof he was divine. So, you list scholars who've proved some dude named jesus existed. I list scholars who say no special jesus existed. And then we both post OTHER people who call our experts crazy and uneducated. And around we go herding translucent cats in a dark basement, landing back down on your belief versus my need for proof. So until I have that proof, jesus son of god did not exist. And since I know the bible is a book of lies concocted by men, and there exists nothing else that could even be considered "evidence", your god doesn't exist either. Since god doesn't exist it's a safe assumption any jesus mentioned was just a regular dude built up via myth. There were plenty of crazy zealots running around then as now. But I will leave the door cracked for you that there exists the chance that one day there may be proven a creator. I think the chance is miniscule but I must conceded the chance nonetheless. http://youtu.be/JjcWkhqScBIThink about it.. at the time of Jesus birth, death, burial and resurrection, the most unique events of his life and their meanings had been prophesied, written, authenticated (by being bundled with prophecies which had previously been fulfilled), canonized, massively distributed, and memorized by Israelite students for generations. Many did recognize him for who he was. Many did not. Nicodemus nearly missed the boat, he had much to lose if he chose to believe, but came through in the end.
Prophecy...? Oh dear... By the way, I have some great land in Florida for sale and I want to offer it at a great price, first, to the most god-fearing because they're just good people. I'll need a small deposit to hold it for you because the other plots went really fast. Faith in the Jesus as the long-prophesied Messiah is often a test of character in and of itself.
You mean good character like Ted Haggard's? Religious faith is no more a test of character than a coin flip. |
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I'm actually a little bit confused as to why people find it so hard to believe in God.
Because for those who choose reality over magic there is no good evidence for its existence. Is it really easier to believe that we all "just happened" through some fluke of science? I mean really... We all came from single cell organism that after untold millions of years eventually mutated to the point where we can create wonderful things like the '68 Firebird Coupe, or the Bitcoin system? Riiiight... I call Bull Shit on that!
"I don't understand" != "Gawd musta dun did it!" |
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What would you do if you could abolish all things you felt were untruth.
Likely nothing. You do realize that the path of spiritual awareness is a personal one. The only way to grow to understand the God you go on about is to walk along side by side with "God"
There is no "spiritual awareness," only you fooling yourself into thinking you understand some secret about the universe that escapes the rest of those not in whatever club of "spiritual awareness" you subscribe. Religion is a manmade club like any other, with rules by which to segregate and perks to make the club feel special from other clubs. The club gets together periodically to reinforce the delusions of members. Many branches of this club have dues which most call a tîthe. Each club redefines words so its intolerance seems righteous. You've chosen, or were likely born into a family who joined, the club that aligns best with your own fantasy concerning how to minimize your fears in life. You and others in the club are afraid so you've made up a god that soothes you by making decisions for you, helping you feel less alone in the universe, and promising you life everlasting. The various club gods offer perks to induce membership such as seeing dead relatives, virginal séx partners, planets to rule or even one's own god status. The Jesus mythologized in Christianity never existed, was and is king of nothing. The bible is a collection of stolen, modified, pre-fabricated myth and forgeries about a non-existent deity. You don't have to be afraid. You do not need religion. Deal with the lack of afterlife by celebrating life and family in the here and now. Be responsible for your own decisions. Be kind to the earth and others on it. Forge a path with determination, or "go with the flow" and let life determine the course if you're the lazy type. Either way, you don't need a god or a club for any of that. This monolithic creator who's name is YHWH יהוה is the God of Abraham. It is the same God that Judaism, Islam, and Christianity worship.
There may be a creator, but there most definitely is no god of abraham. Please remember god is Love above all other things. Tolerance even if we do not agree with the "choices" made are what we all strive for.
Love is the Trojan Horse inside which religion creeps into a person's life, only to spring open later to reveal hatred and intolerance. I'm thrilled you're an advocate for tolerance. Perhaps you can ask your god why he turned the nameless Lot's wife into salt for simply turning her head. Seems a little intolerant for such a loving being. After he gives you an answer (because I'm sure he'll email you) have him answer all these other seemingly intolerant actions: http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/int/long.htmlHowever please realize that those that read your words may "follow" your view for the rest of their lives. Even if maybe 10 years down the line you happened to find "GOD" those same people will be still following your ideology and presumptions you have shared with us this day.
I would be thrilled if I could help one person shake free the thorny shackles of religion. And so I share, "Is Religion Child Abuse?" for those who think we're all born sinners... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwDKT2etW8c |
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Perhaps the Law as Moses recorded it was more Godly in what it did not include.
If god is a capriciously violent, petulant, masochistic twit, then yes, biblical "law" is godly. As for good versus bad, the average 10th grade student could write better law than the pathetic weakling "god of Israel". |
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This page is equivalent to my showing you an unearthed New York subway token as proof Spiderman exists. The deluded will see what they want to see. I enjoy how the link you sent seems to want to claim tokens from earlier cultures as "biblical artifacts" when all it does is provide further evidence to the claim the bible is a fraud made up of co-opted preceding myths and local legends. Showing us Gilgamesh and Hammurabi tablets do nothing to help the fraudulent bible, lol... |
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Before you parrot the lie that "there is zero evidence," look for the evidence.
2000 years... still waiting on that empirical evidence for the existence of the god of Abraham. Have you been hiding it somewhere? Perhaps deep in a youtube "documentary video" (with comments disabled)? |
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Where to start. No. You're wrong. There's plenty of faith involved in the assumption that gravity will work tomorrow. After you clear the hurdles like "WTF *is* gravity" (no, general relativity notions like "curvature of space-time" are handy visualization aids, but not much more), you have to have faith in all kinds of notions: Persistence, the nature of temporality, the certainty that your thought is subject to extraneous physical phenomena... I could keep this list going, but you're bored already & i'm too. Remember, even faith in universal non-contradiction ~(A & ~A) is just ... faith. Hard proof is harder to come by than you think, so... It's not semantics, you're just much too comfortable with your own assumptions.
*sigh* You did exactly what I tried to head off, devolve into semantics. Of course there is no fact in science. Science deals with probability. However, at some point we have to build on the knowledge we have. If we want an answer to "what is 1 + 1," we can't stop to go back and debate the definition of the word "one" or "plus" each time. We cannot stop to talk about how man came to understand abstract thought, touch on Aristotle and the many others who helped form the concept of mathematics. We rely on axiomatic "truths" we've already agreed to within our shared reality. We've arrived at these truths via science. We don't need to personally understand how to conduct electric experiments ourselves to trust that science has a pretty good understanding of how to observe and measure that phenomena. However ANYONE who doesn't buy into what we know of electricity can indeed absorb the knowledge necessary to go conduct experiments himself in attempt to falsify that information. Progress requires building on our collective knowledge. To do that we have to establish a way to prove an assumption by: 1) asserting a hypothesis and its components 2) testing the components for substantial supporting evidence, unsupported components go back to be refined 3) either agree after successful testing that in our shared reality the hypothesis is now supported, or that overall unsupported components may mean the hypothesis fails 4) for sake of ease many people call these tested and supported hypotheses "facts", but again that's just so that we can get on with progress. There may be some people who can show under the right conditions that 1 + 1 does not equal 2, but in order to function in a society we have to get on with calling supported hypotheses "facts". The issue at play here is that religious people are willing to agree to facts the world has established -- until those facts cross into their delusion. Then they wiggle and worm, employ Ad Hoc Hypothesis until one of the debaters faints from exhaustion, then finally invoke magic to overcome the facts they don't like. The bible has very little if any historic value, and nearly zero factual content, despite what any church will tell you. If you rely only on the bible to make a point, that point is considered worthless because we've already proved the bible worthless as source material. We have to build on the knowledge we have. We cannot continually go back to square one with showing the bible is false, especially when adherents will only invoke magic at the end of the discussion. You may not share mankind's general reality but for most of us, gravity will work tomorrow, no faith required. You're free to test it but my advice is: don't climb too high before you leap. |
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The Bible says that there is only one way to eternal life and it is through Jesus Christ.
Every holy text purports to be the one true way. Unfortunately your Jesus never existed. This might have been a clue to you something was wonky with the religion. God does not force us to choose Him. That is the beauty of the gift of Free Will.
Your god attempts extortion to gain believers. He's a wise guy. Probably owns a waste disposal company. As for free will, if you believe your god is omnipotent then you have no free will. If you don't believe he is omnipotent then he is not a god. We are not commanded to give away our possessions. In one story, Jesus told someone who was bragging about what a great person he was and how he had followed the "law" and Jesus told him to sell his possessions and give to the poor. The statement was meant to tell him we are never really perfect and there is always more we can do.
There are literal commandments and then there is the bible which is apparently your god's teachings for how to live. You may not want to say "commandments" but everything taught in the bible is a lesson you're expected to follow. He has taught you to give away your possessions yet you somehow have convinced yourself through "interpretation" it doesn't apply to you. Cherry picking at its finest. There were many rich followers of Christ who did great things.
Each one of them is unfortunately roasting eternally for disobeying your master. Very sad indeed. The LOVE of money is the root of evil. Money, in itself, is not the root of evil. There is a difference.
Jesus didn't say "give away your love of your possessions." You're risking your very soul by being dishonest about this, aren't you? Why do you say there is no archeological evidence? Most of the cities in the Bible are accounted for. Most of the people, Kings etc, have mention outside of scripture that they lived.
There is no archaeological evidence to support the bible. Did you not read the last post? One can write all day about something that might have happened in Topeka, Kansas but just because Topeka exists doesn't meant the event happened. If you have some archaeological evidence you should present it because you'll surely become famous quickly. Many archaeologists have tried and failed over the past 2000 years. Just because a city existed and is mentioned in the bible doesn't mean the bible contains any facts about event details and is not good evidence of anything. You do understand the bible was mostly formed into its current structure in 325AD, well after "the events" are purported to have taken place. it's pretty easy to write "prophecy" or "archaeological writings" AFTER the event has taken place/existed. There is extensive evidence. Unfortunately, our schools like to ignore so much of this for some reason.
Schools ignore religion's "archaeological evidence" because it is horseshit. The job of a school is to teach as much truth as possible, not religious delusion. That is the job of a madrasa. |
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